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Historic Prisoner Swap with Russia; 26 Prisoners Being Exchanged Between Seven Countries; Gershkovich and Whelan Confirmed to be Released. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired August 01, 2024 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:00]

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Some kind of reopening to Putin. Remember the last time that Biden and Putin really dealt with each other face to face, the only time during Biden's presidency -- President Biden's presidency was in Geneva in 2021, and there's been almost no communication that few phone calls since. And one might hope that this suggests that Putin, you know, sees a pathway to maybe opening up some negotiations, we don't know that Ukraine would be the obvious place.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN ANCHOR: That's right. And of course, the importance of Germany even in this is so central. All right. We're going to take a quick break. We have some new reporting coming in. We're going to get it together and be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:35:00]

BURNETT: All right. We have some breaking details here on this ongoing prisoner swap. As we understand, it is happening in these hours here of the first day of August. I want to go to our first -- to our Chief National Security Correspondent Alex Marquardt. Jim Sciutto, also national security analyst, is with us as well.

Alex, this is incredible, though, because now, you know, we're starting to see more details. You've got new reporting on, you know, Russians being in U.S. Prison and just movements in recent hours and days that perhaps signal where we are.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And so, one of the big questions that we hope to get answered very soon is how many Russians are going to be released from U.S. custody heading back home to Russia as Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan get released.

In fact, this is new reporting from our colleague, Evan Perez, who says that the signs of this swap emerged in the past few days. We started reading the tea leaves. There were a number of cases that disappeared from the Bureau of Prisons website. That's a website where you can keep track essentially of where these various prisoners are and details on the crimes that they committed.

But these three Russians, according to Evan's reporting, were transferred into the custody of the U.S. Marshals Service. That was a sign that they were going to be released in the coming days. Now, one of the attorneys for one of these three Russians actually didn't know about this agreement that was in place, that he was about -- that his client was about to get exchanged in what we believe to be this historic deal and complained to a federal judge. They didn't know the whereabouts of their client.

I think there's one thing that is pretty important to note is that there has been some friction within the Biden administration about whether to partake in trades like this, because some believe that it creates an incentive for the Russians to go out and essentially pick up people like Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich so they can get people back home like Vadim Krasikov, who we believe is being exchanged today.

The biggest prisoner who the U.S. has released in recent years to the Russians is Viktor Bout, the so-called Merchant of Death, who was exchanged for Brittney Griner. There was a lot of resistance by the DOJ to release him because they do -- they did believe that it would create this market, if you will, or this incentive for the Russians to pick up people like Brittney Griner. In the end, the State Department and the White House prevailed and convinced the DOJ that this was a good thing to do.

So, the prisoners who are being released today from U.S. Custody, the Russians, are at a lower level than Viktor Bout. They're still quite significant. We can't report their names just yet, but they are involved in financial and cybercrimes, which you alluded to earlier.

And so, these are people who obviously are going to be part of this multifaceted, multi country historic deal who we expect to be walking across that tarmac sometime soon in Ankara, if not already. Erin.

BURNETT: Right. All right. Yes. And, you know, some of these we -- again, we don't necessarily know the names of all of these individuals, but some of these, you know, Russian hacker currently one serving U.S. prison sentence of 27 years. The U.S. had said he was the -- that was the largest penalty for cybercrime in American history. But they also say he was a pioneer of the credit card fraud industry.

So, if that individual is on this list, I mean, just to give people a sense of the seriousness of the crimes that the Russians potentially involved in this are convicted of committing, Jim Sciutto, on the side of Putin, I guess this comes down to what you're reporting is very purposeful, a hostage diplomacy policy that Putin has been pursuing.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Let's begin with this is a happy development. No question for the families involved, the Gershkovich family, the Whelan family and others involved here.

BURNETT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: But we should note that this is part of a broader and expanding strategy by Russia. You could call it hostage diplomacy, hostage brinkmanship, even -- which U.S. officials have been discussing with me for years now whereby Russia deliberately takes Americans hostage, in effect, on trumped up charges so that they have bargaining chips that they could use to pressure the U.S. and get people out that they want.

Think of a Brittney Griner for a Viktor Bout. And almost invariably totally incomparable pairs here, right? A WNBA star for a massive weapons dealer in the case of the grind Griner-Bout exchange. And we should also note, it's not just Russia that does this. Iran does this as well. China does it. You remember the hostage deal that released American Siamak Namazi, as well as others that involved a multibillion-dollar exchange of cash from the U.S. to Iran via proxies.

[10:40:00]

China has done similar. When a senior executive with Huawei was taken by Canada for extradition here in the U.S., Meng Wanzhou. They immediately took two Canadian citizens in China as collateral to then get her release. So, we are in a period where these countries use hostages to get what they want and that's why there is understandable concern about exchanges such as this.

BURNETT: All right. I want -- we have some very significant details here just breaking at this moment. The exchange, we understand, we are getting the number of prisoners 26 people involved, according to Turkey, which intelligence there says they brokered and mediated this between seven countries. 26 individuals involved. That would be, it appears, the largest swap of prisoners since the end of the Cold War, happening in these final minutes and hours, whether some of those have already happened or about to happen. And I believe eight children. We understand eight -- two children. I'm sorry. Two children are included. We don't know their ages, but 26 people, two of them are children.

Alex Marquardt, just quickly to bring you in on this. I mean, we understand this is an historic day, but now you have that number, 26 people, two children. We have not seen something like this in decades.

MARQUARDT: Yes, I might be dating myself, but I used to live in Russia. And in 2010, we saw the biggest spy exchange since the Cold War. That was, I believe, 10 Russians going back to Russia from the U.S. and four coming out of Russia. This is almost double that. 26 people, even if two were minors, say 24 people who are being held in U.S., Russian, and other custodies.

The question now is which of -- which other countries are involved? There has been a massive sweeping -- sweep up effort, if you will, by European countries during the course of the war in Ukraine to pick up Russian intelligence agents. And we know that those are the types of people who Vladimir Putin values the most. This is someone who is a former member of the KGB. He wants his people home. He wants his guys home. That's why we keep saying the Krasikov is at the top of the list.

I expect when the full list of these 26 people come out, you will see others who are valued to the Russian intelligence and security services. And we should also note that just because they're 26, this doesn't mean -- or 24 if they're adults, that this is a 12 for 12 deal. This could be -- or a one for one, if you will. This could be a rather lopsided deal because, of course, each country values a certain people in a different way, Erin.

BURNETT: That's right. Right. You could have very many more Russians than you do. Certainly, Americans. All right. We're going to squeeze in a very brief break, Alex, Jim will be back right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:45:00]

BURNETT: All right. The breaking details just in at this hour. We understand 26 people are involved in what would be the largest prisoner swap since the Cold War involving Russia. Turkey says that it is the mediator of this. People involved -- seven countries are involved where people could be held in prison. We understand two of those 26 are minors.

Joining me now, CNN Military Analyst General Mark Hertling. General, a day like this, when you look at your career, where we are in this moment with Russia and now, we could be looking in these next hours and maybe some of this will happen on camera for the world to see, we don't know in terms of the swap, but the largest hostage prisoner swap since the end of the Cold War, 26 people, two of them children. It is an incredible couple hours here that we are about to be witnesses of.

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST AND U.S. ARMY (RET.): Yes, it is, Erin. And first, what I want to say is compliment you, all your reporters, and all your team who are getting the information. It's been fabulous coverage of this breaking news.

But what I would say is I specifically point out the things that Jim Sciutto, Nic Robertson, and Jill Dougherty have said, this is not an empathetic action by Mr. Putin. He is using this kind of hostage diplomacy is, as I think Jim Sciutto called it, to get what he wants. It's going to be fascinating because it's a multinational deal. We know that we're more than likely going to get Paul Whelan, Evan Gershkovich, and perhaps Vladimir Kara-Murza, other people who might come out and, German citizen, Kevin Lik, who's the youngest person in prison for treason. He's 19 years old in Russia. No capability to prove that he was treasonous.

Various members of the late opposition leader, Alexei Navalny's staff. He has four or five of them in prison just for being activists, journalists. And what's he going to get? Well, he's more than likely going to get Vadim Krasikov, who you've mentioned a couple of times. This is a guy who killed someone in a Berlin Park in 2019. He's not a spy. He's an operator. This is a murderer.

BURNETT: He's an assassin and killed others. Killed many -- multiple others, at least.

HERTLING: And killed others.

BURNETT: Yes. HERTLING: Yes. And what's interesting is Putin hinted that he wanted this to Tucker Carlson during that infamous, ridiculous interview that Carlson conducted. And he referred to him as someone who was committing murder due to patriotic sentiments and eliminating a bandit in one of the European capitals. He feels he's free to do that.

BURNETT: General, I just want to jump in because I can confirm now formally, and it's so important just to say these words, Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich, we can confirm were part of this prisoner swap. And I believe we are using the past tense when it comes to them, which could mean that may be that technical handoff between -- has happened, for Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan, which is an incredible moment.

[10:50:00]

As we look at them on this screen, serving time in maximum security penal colonies for years, in the case of Paul Whelan, for over a year in the case of Evan Gershkovich, reporter for the Wall Street Journal, General.

HERTLING: Yes, wonderful news. That's terrific for them and their families. I'm going to continue to watch this, Erin, because the names of the others that Russia will release. What may be fascinating to your viewers is that I would bet, I'd bet a month's pay on the fact that the majority of the people they're going to release are actually Russian citizens. Journalist -- Russian journalist and Russian dissidents, and they're going to be releasing them for other Russian criminals, not just Krasikov, who you've mentioned, but potentially the individual you've been talking about, the cybercriminal Dunaev. He's not just a cybercriminal. I would suggest he's also a Russian operative trying to sow damage within western countries. So, it's going to be fascinating to see who comes out of this on both sides and why they were traded.

BURNETT: Yes, it is stunning, as you say, releasing dissidents in exchange for criminals, perhaps just putting it so simplistically in black and white is so poignant and significant in this moment. Again, we have confirmed here from Turkish intelligence that Evan Gershkovich, the reporter for the Wall Street Journal, and the former U.S. Marine Paul Whelan have been exchanged as part of this mass prisoner exchange with Russia. As we continue to get some more breaking details here, we will have one more break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BURNETT: All right. Joining me now, Dan O'Shea, coordinator of the hostage working group for the U.S. embassy in Iraq. And, Dan, that the breaking details that we are just receiving is that we can now confirm that Evan Gershkovich, the reporter for the Wall Street Journal, and the former U.S. Marine Paul Whelan. Paul Whelan, of course, had been held for six years in a penal colony in Russia, have been released as part of this swap. 26 people total. We expect many more of them will be Russians than anything else.

[10:55:00] But can you, as your experience, take us in what these moments, and we don't know how many have been exchanged, where we are in the process at this moment, we're watching a tarmac in Ankara, but in those final moments, as Evan Gershkovich is handed over, Paul Whelan is handed over, what happens in that moment, Dan?

DAN O'SHEA, FORMER HOSTAGE WORKING GROUP COORDINATOR, U.S. EMBASSY IN IRAQ AND FORMER NAVY SEAL COMMANDER: It is. It's indescribable. And I've witnessed the exchange, the handover. My last job day in Iraq, I watched the handover of Jill Carroll, who've been held for 83 days. And literally, every moment, every day, every second for these political prisoners, and it's exactly what they are because they're literally pawns in this game.

And you've talked about the hostage diplomacy. I call it hostage terrorism. And rogue regimes like Putin do this and they do it very effectively. And your guests have all laid out all the facts about trading dissidents and journalists for criminals. And unfortunately, that's what it takes.

But for these two individuals and all these hostages, it is -- it's an indescribable experience and a sense of relief because you don't know what moment day to day and all this -- I mean, the Wall Street Journal reporter was just sentenced to 16 years. Paul Whelan's been in a penal colony. And then to find out in the last few days that now the swaps happening, it's answering every prayer, not only for their families, but for these individuals as well.

BURNETT: Right. And of course, they may have been -- you know, as we know, there were movements within Russia being moved for certain, they wouldn't have known why, right, just to be in that complete black hole. But Dan, when this happens and you sort of are walking across the tarmac or that handoff happens, we know a lot of the families, of course, are in Washington waiting. So, who is a part of that actual moment when, you know, a human being steps over the line, for lack of a better word, back home?

O'SHEA: Well, the Office of Hostage Affairs, the ambassador, Roger Carstens, who's been behind the scenes, he is the one that has been brokering these deals. Roger, I guarantee, will be on the tarmac in Russia or wherever, picking these two individuals up or whoever's coming home in that swap.

His team will include medical examinations because their repatriation process is going to involve hours, weeks, maybe months, if not years of counseling. And so, big part is trying to bring back that humanity. I mean, they want to basically give these folks a chance to get on the phone, talk to their families. But it will be a long, complicated process. And it's not just there -- because it's -- they're coming from a prison situation and now freedom, and that transition can be very hard for anyone, much less Paul Whelan, who's been held for six years in a penal colony.

BURNETT: Yes. Dan, thank you very much for that invaluable perspective. And we do have some more reporting here that we are working on. Take a quick break. As we get that together, we'll bring it to you.

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