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New Details Emerge on Hamas Leader's Death; Paul Whelan and Evan Gershkovich Released in Prisoner Swap. Aired 11:30a-12:00p ET

Aired August 01, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ERIN BURNETT, CNN HOST: With all the diplomacy and all the discussion that will happen, very fairly, about who was exchanged for what and what the moral compromises were, this moment is an incredible moment of joy.

[11:30:09]

JILL DOUGHERTY, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: It is.

And when you think of what Evan went through and the others, Paul Whelan, five -- more than five years, the conditions are really harsh. The Americans, because they're valuable, are -- they can be put in harsh conditions, but, usually, there's some -- I hate the word -- use the word protection, but there is some type of protection where they shouldn't be completely abused.

That said, psychologically and physically, it is very, very difficult. We heard that from Brittney Griner. And Paul Whelan has been working on a sewing machine. It's just very, very difficult. So getting them out is extremely important to the families.

BURNETT: You know, you mentioned Paul Whelan and the sewing machine. His sister Elizabeth at one point was going through that. She was telling me about how it would just be hours and hours of sewing. I think it was uniforms, right, that he would be put to work and that's what he was doing.

And then there'd be these periods of solitary confinement. He was ill. Just the day-to-day existence that they have endured, Jill, how would you even describe that, as now, all of a sudden, they're going to return to, I guess -- quote, unquote -- "normal life"?

DOUGHERTY: Yes, very disorienting, I think.

I mean, most -- Evan speaks Russian, but most of the other Americans do not. And so imagine yourself in this environment where you are suddenly grabbed and then everybody is speaking a foreign language. You have terrible food. You're locked up. And, also, Russia ships people around the country in railway cars, et cetera.

So you are really cut off. And I think, as we look at Paul over the years, there were moments where he and his family basically just gave up, thinking that it would never happen.

BURNETT: Yes. DOUGHERTY: And that, I think, is really, really tough.

BURNETT: Jill, I know they had frustrations with the Biden administration. They had felt this had been put on the back burner, and in fact, when all the reporting comes out, maybe that it was put on the back burner for other things and other concerns for periods of time, right, before we get to this ultimate moment.

Jill, we're waiting to understand whether Vladimir Kara-Murza has indeed already been transferred, whether he is formally on this list, the dissident and activist who had been poisoned years before and obviously has suffered greatly in custody in Russia.

Over these next hours, from your perspective, as having spent so much time in Moscow, what do you think is actually happening here with these transfers in these hours as we're waiting to find out who's really on that list and when they're actually being transferred?

DOUGHERTY: Well, that really is a little hard to tell at this point. I mean, if they are being transferred, there is a likelihood that they are in Turkey on that runway or they could be transferred from other places.

I think what's extraordinary about this is, you look at even the planes that had to bring people from where they were, let's say in the Ural Mountains or wherever, taken to other places in Russia, then taken out of the country, then taken.

There's been a lot of that movement. And the families had to watch that. And as I was mentioning, the Americans get kind of a little bit more careful watching. The Russians get the brunt of this. And they are much more vulnerable.

In fact, Vladimir Kara-Murza is very sick. He was poisoned twice. And there was grave concern that he might die, kind of like Navalny. And so these are, again, the realities of the situation.

BURNETT: All right. Well, Jill, thank you very much.

And as we await more confirmation these names, we do have some more breaking news coming in right now from the White House, where Kayla Tausche, our senior correspondent, is.

And, Kayla, you have reporting here on the families of American prisoners. They are where you are right now?

KAYLA TAUSCHE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Erin, I have just learned, according to a source with knowledge of the matter, that the families of the Americans involved in today's prisoner swap are here at the White House.

I'm told they are currently gathered in the Roosevelt Room of the West Wing, while President Biden is in the Oval Office, where he has been briefed throughout the morning. He arrived in the West Wing just about an hour ago, according to our reporting. Now, of course, these families are familiar to President Biden. He's

met with them multiple times over multiple years as they have worked toward the same goal, which is exactly what is expected to happen today. And that is the release of Evan Gershkovich, of Paul Whelan, and, of course, others involved in this historic exchange.

So they are currently here at the White House, gathered in the Roosevelt Room, waiting to meet with President Biden.

[11:35:02]

BURNETT: Kayla, thank you.

And Alex Marquardt with more details.

Alex, in terms of these political prisoners, hostages, that they -- you know where they are right now?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, we can now report that Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan are now in U.S. custody.

This is part of this historic exchange that is taking place today, so tremendous news for those two men, for their families. They are just two, we understand, of at least two dozen prisoners who are being exchanged today.

Erin, as you noted earlier, the Turks are saying 26. We believe that there are two children, but among the prisoners, some 24, we believe. This is a multicountry exchange that is taking place in Ankara. The Turks have said that they have facilitated not just the exchange today, but the discussions among the various intelligence services leading up to this swap that was agreed to by the Russians, I'm told, in mid-July.

So we have two dozen detainees from at least seven countries being exchanged. This is not a one-for-one deal. These are not even numbers going each way. There are at least eight people who are going back to Russia. Foremost among them, at least in the Kremlin's mind, is Vadim Krasikov, who's being freed by Germany.

Sixteen people are being released by the Kremlin who have been held in Russian detention, of course, some of them, like Paul Whelan, for many years. They are not all foreign citizens. We understand that there are some Russians among them as well.

Of course, Vladimir Kara-Murza is probably the most prominent one. He's a critic. He's an opposition figure. He has written as a journalist. He won a Pulitzer Prize. He is also a U.S. permanent resident. So there's a chance that Vladimir Kara-Murza comes here to the United States.

There's a Russian-American journalist named Alsu Kurmasheva. She was recently sentenced to six-and-a-half years in prison for criticizing the Russian army. So this is something, Erin, that has been, of course, in the works not just for months, when things really picked up.

And there have been a lot of fits and starts. But this has been in the works for years.

I just want to read you a little bit of what National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said earlier today. He said: "It became clear that the Russians would not agree to the release of these individuals without an exchange that included Vadim Krasikov. He's a Russian criminal who was in German custody, not someone who we could offer ourselves."

That's by way of an explanation as to why there are more than just -- more than just the U.S. and Russia involved, the Germans, as well as, I should note, the Slovenians, Norway, Poland, and Belarus. So that rounds out the seven countries, Sullivan describing these pain -- these negotiations as painstaking -- Erin.

BURNETT: Yes, absolutely. And, of course, there have been some senior in the German government who felt that Vadim Krasikov was serving a life sentence and that there was nothing under which they would make that deal, that that was front and center.

So, until they were willing to move, in a sense, the U.S. hands were tied on any deal that they would want to do. Incredible details here coming out.

And I want to go now to the State Department.

Kylie Atwood has some breaking details on, Kylie, what you expect to hear in the next few minutes.

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, listen, I think we're going to hear from the White House that President Biden was able to personally break the news to these four families, these American families, that their loved ones were finally coming home.

We heard that National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan spoke with a group of us this morning and said that, as far as the United States knows, this is the largest exchange involving this many countries between U.S. allies and partners that has ever happened. That is huge.

It really hits home at how large, how complex this swap has actually become. As Alex said, seven countries at least were involved in this. And one of the significant things that we learned from administration officials today is that President Biden got personally involved, had a conversation with German Chancellor Scholz about Vadim Krasikov, that German -- excuse me, -- that Russian who's in German custody, that former FSB officer who we have been talking about, serving a lifetime sentence for murder in Germany.

And, previously, the Germans wouldn't budge. They said that they wouldn't release that prisoner. That was someone that the Russians really wanted. It took President Biden's personal touch with Chancellor Scholz to actually convince him that this was a necessity.

They had a meeting in February where U.S. officials thought that things were headed in the right direction after that conversation between these two leaders, but then, just days later, Alexei Navalny dies. And there were concerns.

BURNETT: Yes.

ATWOOD: U.S. officials thought the wind was being taken out of the sails of these efforts that were put together, and they went back to the drawing board to try and figure out a plan that could secure the release of these Americans.

[11:40:11]

And so it has been an intensive, monthslong effort of U.S. officials with starts and fits at certain moments that they have had to deal with here.

BURNETT: All right, Kayla, thank you. Thank you very much, Kylie.

And, of course, we have got those families now, we understand, meeting with President Biden. We anticipate we will hear from him.

Let's go to our senior White House correspondent, Kayla Tausche.

And, Kayla, you have got some reporting right now from the president.

TAUSCHE: I do, Erin.

We now expect the president to deliver remarks to the public at noon this deal, which, in a statement the White House just released, he called a feat of diplomacy. He says that three American citizens and one American green card will be released as part of this historic prisoner swap.

And he says he is grateful to "our allies who stood with us throughout tough, complex negotiations to achieve this outcome." And he says that he "will not stop working until every American wrongfully detained or held hostage around the world is reunited with their family."

When we hear from President Biden in just a few moments, we expect to hear him talk about those diplomatic efforts that were painstaking behind the scenes for multiple years, and dependent on those relationships with allies that President Biden has been vocal about seeking to strengthen since he took office just four years ago.

Again, we're going to hear from President Biden himself in just a few minutes, as he formally announces this prisoner swap, including three American citizens, one American green card holder, and with those families here on campus at the White House, Erin.

BURNETT: All right, thank you so much, Kayla.

And, of course, we should say, Vladimir Kara-Murza, the dissident and the activist who has been so ill, a dual Russian-British citizen, is an American green card holder.

We're going to take a brief break, and we will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [11:46:29]

BURNETT: All right, we are following major breaking news on the prisoner swap with Russia.

We anticipate that the president of the United States, President Biden, will be speaking in moments. We, of course, are going to bring that to you live.

We are also tracking breaking developments from the Middle East, with new reporting from our Jeremy Diamond that that Hamas political leader who was assassinated in Tehran, was assassinated using an explosive device that had been covertly hidden, planted in the guesthouse controlled by the elite Iranian IRGC where he was staying.

CNN political and national security analyst David Sanger joins me now.

David, an absolutely incredible day with the news that we are getting, joyful news for U.S. hostage families, and also these details from Jeremy Diamond.

I just want to give you a chance, so many years where you have covered Iran. What do you think when you hear Jeremy's reporting, an IED planted, obviously by a person, in a house controlled by the IRGC two months ago, and then detonated when this Hamas leader was actually staying there? How stunning is that to you?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, first Erin, what a news morning, right, after weeks of big news along the way. What a great, great thing to see Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan and others freed.

What we are learning about Iran is equally stunning. And my great colleague Ronen Bergman did some great work on this as well. So what this means is that the IRGC, which is the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, which controls, among other things, the Iranian nuclear program, and, of course, is the most powerful military force there, has been once again penetrated.

They were penetrated during the killings of Iranian scientists. They were penetrated during the bombings of Iranian nuclear facilities. They were penetrated during the big cyber operation the U.S. and Israel did against those facilities.

And now, for two months, a bomb or some kind of explosive device has been sitting in one of their own guesthouses. It makes them basically look vulnerable. It makes them look sloppy. It makes them look foolish. And in many ways, that could contribute to a bigger reaction by Iran, because it's going to create a lot of anger within the military.

BURNETT: Yes, and your context on that, obviously, even before we found this out, they had said that they were going to respond with a direct attack on Israel.

SANGER: Right. BURNETT: As we're waiting for formal confirmation, David, we know a green card holder among the U.S. political prisoners released from Russia is on that list. Vladimir Kara-Murza is, of course, a green card holder. So we anticipate that that is him.

SANGER: Yes.

BURNETT: But we're waiting these comments from the president of the United States, going to come in just a few moments.

How significant is this moment for him? How much detail do you think that he will actually lay out for the American people in this moment of the biggest prisoner swap with Russia since the end of the Cold War?

SANGER: Well, first of all, that last point you make, Erin, is huge, because this is the largest swap of the post-Soviet era.

It has echoes of the old Cold War, but it is overlaid with, of course, the new cold wars, which is -- includes Russia's attack on Ukraine, its relationship with China.

[11:50:05]

I think the president will probably be a little bit sparse on the details, but it's a big celebratory moment for him. He promised, even when he was giving the address pulling out from the race, that he was going to continue to work to get hostage at home. Obviously, this was well under way.

I think some of the most interesting roles in this, we're going to discover, were probably played by Bill Burns, the CIA director --

BURNETT: Yes.

SANGER: -- who was formerly the U.S. ambassador to Russia and knows the characters well, and dealt with Turkey on this, Roger Carstens at the State Department, who has been the hostage negotiator.

And my guess is that you will get a general picture of it from the president, and then you will see White House officials beginning to give background of each and every one of the phone calls the president's made, many of them right around the time that he was making the decision to pull out of the race.

BURNETT: Extremely significant.

And we understand, David, he also made the personal calls to the hostage families. I know ones I have spoken to found out yesterday that this was in the works.

SANGER: Yes.

BURNETT: And he was making those calls, as we understand from Kayla's reporting.

Thank you, David Sanger.

Let's bring in Jim Sciutto again.

Jim, Bill Burns -- Alex Marquardt has been reporting on the role of the CIA. Bill Burns, CIA director, just a moment to consider his central role in this, his central role in the cease-fire negotiations, which, of course, thus far have not come to fruition, but yet in the middle of that, constantly on the road, certainly, in terms of his role here in these moments, an incredibly consequential role for the U.S. CIA director.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Listen, he's been an unusual CIA director in how central his role has been on a number of fronts and how forward-facing it's been, right, on the hostage negotiations between Hamas and Israel and the intermediators, in this particular negotiation with Russia and prior ones.

And, remember, this is a guy who doesn't just have an intelligence background. He has a deep diplomatic background from the State Department and a deep Russia background, having been the U.S. ambassador to Russia. He knows his counterparts in Russia face-to- face. He's described them to me.

He knows they are tough SOBs, right?

BURNETT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: I mean, he's described them in those terms before. So he knows how to deal with them face-to-face and has -- and it has been Bill Burns who's delivered some of the most difficult messages between the U.S. and Russia.

For instance, prior to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, it was Bill Burns that President Biden dispatched to speak to the Russians and say, we're watching you. It looks like you're going to invade. What are you up to? And we won't stand for this.

So he has been quite central and quite forward-facing for a CIA director. And you could look at this as a -- well, quite a victory, quite a success for him, a deal like this one.

BURNETT: Right, yes, and absolutely, and, as you point out, with extensive experience in his own life in Moscow and knowing Vladimir Putin.

Few in the U.S. diplomatic corps can say all -- have all the things that he said. And, in this moment, he is such an historically consequential figure.

We mentioned that we are confirming the individual names.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BURNETT: We know Evan Gershkovich, we know Paul Whelan among them, anticipate Vladimir Kara-Murza, the activist, the distant among them. And you and I have both spoken to his -- his wife, his children have suffered so much.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BURNETT: He is the green card holder, I believe, that is on this list, but we don't yet have the formal names.

A moment for that family, Jim --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BURNETT: -- that, with three young children, they, honestly, at some points had given up ever thinking they would see their father again.

SCIUTTO: It's a good point, right, because not only did these families fear that their loved ones would remain in a Russian prison. They feared they might die in a Russian prison.

When I spoke to Evgenia just last month about her husband, she said the following to me. She said: "I know my husband's life is in danger, and I have been fearing for his life since 2015 when I saw him in a coma with multiple organ failure."

This is because Kara-Murza, as you know, had been poisoned twice, the U.S. believes, by Russian authorities.

BURNETT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: And they look at the case. They look at the case of Alexei Navalny, right, who did die in a Russian penal colony.

And just a moment, Erin, I think today, sort of a word of sympathy for Yulia Navalnaya and their daughter, Dasha, and their son --

BURNETT: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- watching this unfold. I am certain they are happy for these families, but there has to be part of them deep down that wishes that Alexei Navalny was still alive, and he might be part of such a prisoner swap. It's got to be a difficult moment for them.

BURNETT: Incredibly difficult, because we do know from the reporting, some of which done -- done by Christo Grozev and others who are so close to that family --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BURNETT: -- that, originally, there was a time in which Vladimir Putin thought that he could exchange Vadim Krasikov, the convicted assassin in Germany, for Alexei Navalny --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BURNETT: -- that perhaps they were on the eve of that when Navalny died --

SCIUTTO: Yes. BURNETT: -- and that family so close to perhaps having that joy in

their lives denied that. It is a moment to consider that.

[11:55:02]

I do want to say we can confirm now that Vladimir Kara-Murza is on this list, has been transferred, so that incredible news for that family --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BURNETT: -- where they did think, Jim, as you point out, and Evgenia did think that her husband could die.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BURNETT: And there was a time even recently in past months where he was incredibly ill. And I think many would be surprised that he even got to this point.

SCIUTTO: And that's not an unfounded fear, as you know, Erin, because Vladimir Putin has shown no hesitation and, in fact, quite aggressive willingness to kill his critics, both inside Russian soil, on Russian soil, and outside the country.

You think of Alexander Litvinenko poisoned in London, other attempts to kill others, and some successful, overseas as well. So, it's a fear based on the facts. So that adds to the enormous relief of these families today.

BURNETT: All right, Jim Sciutto, thank you very much.

On this momentous and consequential day, we are awaiting comments by the president of the United States from the White House.

I'm Erin Burnett. And our special coverage continues after this.