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Rep. Greg Stanton (D-AZ) Is Interviewed About Biden Grants Son "Full And Unconditional Pardon"; Trump Plans To Replace FBI Director With Loyalist Kash Patel. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired December 02, 2024 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:01]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. And you're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

He has vowed to dismantle the FBI once he's sworn in. And today, we're learning more about how? President-elect Trump names his new choice to lead the bureau, Kash Patel, who says the iconic J. Edgar Hoover building will immediately become a, quote, museum.

Plus, closing arguments are underway in a trial that brought mental illness and vigilante justice into the national spotlight. A former Marine charged in the death of a homeless man after putting him in a chokehold on a New York subway.

And later, a holiday transformation to bid farewell to the White House, 165,000 lights, 28,000 ornaments on 83 trees. An in depth look at how the Bidens chose to deck the halls one last time.

And we begin with that full and unconditional pardon signed by President Biden for his son, Hunter. The decision comes after Biden and his team spent months saying he would not issue one. Hunter Biden faced sentencing this month after pleading guilty to federal tax charges and his earlier conviction on federal gun crimes. Arlette Saenz joins us now. And you have some new reporting, Arlette, on when Biden told his staff of this decision. Tell us more.

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right, Pamela. President Biden reached this decision with his family as they spent the Thanksgiving holiday in Nantucket, Massachusetts over the weekend. And I'm told that the President started telling his senior staff about the decision on Saturday evening.

The President called a meeting for when he returned back to the White House on Saturday night. And in that meeting, he told senior aides that he was moving forward with this decision and that he wanted to release a statement about it on Sunday night. Eventually, the senior aides huddled together again on Sunday morning to iron out those details. For President Biden in his statement, he really tried to describe this as a decision that he made as a father.

The President also firmly believes that -- that his son, Hunter Biden, was wrong -- wrongly maligned by Republicans over the years and that these charges that he faced were politically motivated. The President very bluntly in his statement said that he did not believe that his son would be charged if he wasn't the President's son.

The President wrote in that statement, quote, there has been an effort to break, Hunter, who has been five and a half years sober, even in the face of unrelenting attacks and selective prosecution. In trying to break Hunter, they've tried to break me. And there is no reason to believe it will stop here. Enough is enough.

Now, the President in his statement does not mention the fact that he's completely reversed his position on this issue. Back in June, both before and after Hunter -- Hunter Biden was found guilty on felony gun charges in Delaware. The President emphatically said that he would not pardon his son, Hunter. This also comes as Biden has staked so much of his political -- political career on maintaining the independence of the judicial system and the Justice Department.

But the President very clearly stepping in this case to pardon his son, Hunter. Now, at this very moment, the White House is -- Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre is taking questions from reporters aboard Air Force One as they are traveling here to Angola. At the very top of that question and answer session, she said that the President's statement was comprehensive and she anticipated answering questions a little bit later on.

But there are many questions for this White House as President Biden made this reversal are really running contrary to many of the statements that he had made as president, not just about pardoning his son -- son, Hunter, but also the independence of the justice judicial system as well.

BROWN: Certainly a lot to discuss. Arlette Saenz, thank you so much.

And I'm joined now by Congressman Greg Stanton. He's a Democrat from Arizona and former mayor of Phoenix, who was one of the first Democrats in Congress to criticize President Biden's decision. Thank you for coming on. So the President said in his announcement that the cases against Hunter Biden came about, quote, after several of my political opponents in Congress instigated them to attack me and oppose my election. He also argued that others with similar offenses to Hunter on gun and tax charges are not typically brought to trial with felony charges. In light of that, you tweeted that he got it wrong. Why?

REP. GREG STANTON (D-AZ): Well, I think he got it wrong yesterday. I think he had it right before yesterday when the President indicated that he was not going to pardon his son and that he trusted the Justice Department, even in the case, especially in the case involving his son. And I felt that -- that Hunter Biden had been convicted by a jury of his peers. He pled guilty himself. It was done by a special counsel. There was no indication that was a politicized case.

I feel the same way about the case against Donald Trump, by the way that there was -- it was -- it was not done with politics, but done by professional prosecutors, by the justice system. And so I felt the President had it right before yesterday and yesterday got it wrong.

[11:05:06] BROWN: As you noted, Biden reversed course. His administration and Biden himself have repeatedly insisted that he would not pardon his son. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there any possibility that the president would end up pardoning his son?

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, is there --

JEAN-PIERRE: I just said no. I just answered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President pardon or commute his son if he's convicted?

JEAN-PIERRE: So I've answered this question before. It was asked of me not too long ago, a couple of weeks ago, and I was very clear, and I said no.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said before that the President would not pardon his son. Is that still the case?

JEAN-PIERRE: Nothing has changed. That is still the case.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And have you ruled out a pardon for your son?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes.

I said I abide by the jury decision, and I will do that, and I will not pardon him.

JEAN-PIERRE: I could speak for the President, and he said he would not pardon his son.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does the President have any intention of pardoning him?

JEAN-PIERRE: We've been asked that question multiple times. Our answer stands, which is no.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's a lot of denials that he would do so. And then he did, reversing course, how much moral high ground has Biden ceded here?

STANTON: Look, I respect President Biden. I know it was an incredibly difficult decision. But I think he had it right previously where he indicated he would not pardon his own son. And I think he did the right thing by propping up and showing support for our justice system. The justice system is under attack. Trump and his supporters have consistently tried to undermine public confidence in the justice system. And the President showed great leadership by indicating that he trusted the process, he trusted the special counsel, even in a case involving his own son. And that was the right thing to do. And yesterday, obviously, he made a different choice. And that's why I felt it was -- I needed to use my voice, my platform, to say that I thought it was the wrong decision.

BROWN: Right. But just to follow up on that, I mean, you know, does this hurt Democrats ability to criticize Trump and what his -- his, you know, future cabinet will do as it pertains to the Justice Department and the FBI? I mean, was moral high ground lost here with this decision, with this reversal?

STANTON: Well, look, I think as members of Congress, whether it's a Republican president or a Democratic president, if you think they make the wrong choice, you've got to use your voice and speak up and make that -- and make that case. I think if President Trump, who was convicted 34 felony counts by a jury of his peers, if he -- if he makes any moves in the future to try to undermine that, that would be the wrong thing as -- as well.

I think it's important that we try to show support for the professionals in the Department of Justice who are trying to do the right thing, make these difficulties calls, but do the right thing for justice in America, even involving family members of the most powerful people in this -- in this country. So I get the point that you're making. I guess we'll find out into the future. I just feel as a member of Congress, I got to call it as I see it, whether it's a Republican president or a Democratic president about these type of decisions.

BROWN: Right. But, you know, Trump has made it clear in his Cabinet picks that he wants anti-establishment figures who say that the government is full of hypocritical elitists, right? We hear that from them all the time. They say that agencies need to be gutted because of it. Do you think this pardon adds ammunition to that message for the Trump camp potentially?

STANTON: I don't appreciate any insinuation that the Department of Justice has gotten politicized. I mean, I guess you have people on the left side of the political spectrum making that case, the right side of the political spectrum of the case, because they don't like a particular problem, prosecution. I believe it's important that we prop up and show support for people in the -- in the Department of Justice. They need that support.

We have lifetime prosecutors who dedicated their -- their -- their lives, their careers to stand for justice, even in the most difficult circumstances. And I think they need to -- they need -- they need see support from people at the highest levels. That's why I felt it was important to use my voice, obviously, in cases like a Matt Gaetz or Kash Patel who -- who have made it clear that they want to engage in retribution towards political opponents. I believe that the Senate will do the right thing. And they've already rejected Matt Gaetz. I think they will reject Lash Patel as well. BROWN: Right. Matt Gaetz stepped aside. Kash Patel clearly is Trump's pick to run the FBI. Now, whether he will be confirmed by the Senate is an open question. But just to follow up on this -- this pardon, I'm just curious what you think about the breadth of the pardon covering 10 years, including Hunter Biden's controversial time on the board of one of Ukraine's largest natural gas companies, Burisma. What do you think about that?

STANTON: I mean, I -- I spoke pretty clearly in my tweet that I put out last night, almost immediately upon the President making this announcement. Previous to this, the President had been clear that he wasn't going to pardon his son. The President had indicated that he supported the justice system. He supported the process, even involving his own son. And I thought that was the right decision. It was a courageous decision. And I think the -- the pardon was a step in the wrong direction. That's why I use my voice. So I -- I oppose the pardon, including the breadth of it.

[11:10:23]

BROWN: Was it really a courageous decision if he didn't actually follow through on his words?

STANTON: Well, that's -- that's why I felt I needed to speak up and say that I felt it was the wrong decision. So I'm, you know, I felt strongly that, number one, that the justice system had worked in this case, that Hunter Biden faced a jury of his peers, and the jury of his peers found him guilty of felonies. He later on pled guilty to other felonies. And under those circumstances, I didn't feel a pardon was appropriate.

BROWN: All right, Congressman Greg Stanton, thank you so much.

STANTON: Thank you.

BROWN: And I'm joined now by CNN presidential historian Tim Naftali. He is the former director of the Nixon Presidential Library. I'd love for you to just give the historical big picture perspective here, Tim. In your view, was it a mistake for President Biden to do this now, especially after saying for so long he wouldn't pardon his son?

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Well, I think this President Biden's decision to pardon his son will be a taint on his legacy. I certainly, I think every American understands why a father would want to help out a son, even a presidential father. But given that this pardon has such a broad scope, it feeds into, I think, a poisonous narrative about the Biden family.

I think it would have been better for President Biden's legacy if he had commuted a sentence, given clemency, if you will, to his son, as opposed to a blanket pardon. So I do think this will harm his political presidential legacy. And -- and for that reason, I consider it to have been a mistake by him, although I understand in -- on the human or in the human dimension why he would have done this.

BROWN: I'm just curious what you think also about the reversal, because in the statement that he released justifying his decision to pardon, which of course, as we know, presidents have broad powers to pardon, right? There were no -- there was no new information in terms of, you know, when he was saying he wouldn't pardon his son. It was the same situation then as he said in his statement that he believed that this was politically motivated and so forth. What do you make of -- of the fact that Biden continually said he wouldn't do this and then he did. And how -- how do you think that could impact his legacy, if at all?

NAFTALI: Well, first of all, I mean, President Biden is not the first president to pardon a member of his family. What makes this different is that, first of all, he said he wouldn't do it. And secondly, the scope of the pardon covers activities which -- for which there are, by the way, there's no evidence that any wrongdoing was done by either President Biden or his son.

But the scope covers a period that President-elect Trump and his supporters have been focused on, indeed use that period as a reason for disrupting our relations with Ukraine. And that, of course, led to the first impeachment of President Trump. And so to have covered that area in the pardon gives ammunition in a very difficult and toxic time to people around President-elect Trump and President Trump himself to engage in egregious pardons once -- once January 20th is upon us.

So I -- I fear that though President Trump, elect Trump didn't need an excuse to engage in wide -- wide scale pardoning, for example, to January 6th, those convicted for crimes on January 6th or as a result of January 6th, this just, I think, helps justify it for President- elect Trump. And at this time when we're so divided as a nation, I -- I believe that the scope of the pardon that President Biden has issued for his son was not helpful.

BROWN: All right, Tim Naftali, thank you so much.

NAFTALI: Thank you.

[11:14:32]

BROWN: And still ahead this hour, he has spent years criticizing the FBI as a, quote, deep state conspiracy, a government run by gangsters. And now President-elect Trump wants Kash Patel to run the bureau. I'll speak with a former FBI special agent next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Trump loyalist, Kash Patel, is receiving mixed reviews as he faces an uncertain confirmation for the next FBI director. Patel has said he would largely dismantle the very organization he would lead and has vowed to target Trump's enemies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASH PATEL: We will go out and find the conspirators not just in government, but in the media. Yes, we're going to come after the people in the media who lied about American citizens, who helped Joe Biden rig presidential elections. We're going to come after you whether it's criminally or civilly. We'll figure that out. But yes, we're putting you all on notice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: CNN's Alayna Treene is in West Palm Beach, Florida. Alayna, what more have you learned about this election of Patel?

[11:20:06]

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: Yes, well, we have some new reporting, Pamela. I've learned that actually in recent days, Donald Trump had been wavering between two different people that he wanted to lead the FBI and to replace Christopher Wray. One of them was Kash Patel, but the other was Missouri Attorney General Andrew Bailey.

Now, I'm told that many people close to Donald Trump, some working on the transition, were actually very skeptical of Patel. Donald Trump, for a long time now has really wanted Patel to be in a big role, whether it was in the national security space or at the Department of Justice.

But then some people were arguing that when he started considering him for the FBI director role, that maybe he would be a better deputy director, just given the controversy surrounding him and some of the past comments he made, including what you just played about wanting to seek retribution against political opponents and even American journalists.

I am told as well that Donald Trump met in person and interviewed both Andrew Bailey and Kash Patel at Mar-a-Lago earlier or last month, I should say. However, Donald Trump was not impressed by Bailey, I'm told, and that really he didn't believe that he had the personality that Donald Trump was looking for. I'm going to read for you what one Trump advisor who's been involved in some of these conversations behind the scenes told me.

They said, quote, it came down to a matter of what Trump wants and what he was looking for in terms of an FBI director. And Bailey didn't fit that mold. He didn't have the personality. Now, Pamela, I'm also told that, you know, what Donald Trump really wants is a legal pit bull to be in his quarter, someone who will not hold him back from what he wants to do and will carry out his agenda, and that is Patel.

As you mentioned, he's a harsh critic of the FBI. He said he wants to shut down the headquarters and -- and make it a museum. He wants to fire FBI leadership, and he also wants to root out bias that he and Donald Trump believe has permeated -- permeated the bureau for the last several years.

There's also people, though, in some of these conversations that have also really been pushing Patel on Donald Trump. I'm told Eric Trump, Donald Trump Jr. And Stephen Miller, Donald Trump's incoming deputy chief of staff for policy, have all been the ones really promoting Patel to Donald Trump.

Their argument, and we've kind of seen this now echoed by many Republicans on Capitol Hill and other of Donald Trump's transition officials, that essentially they believe that Patel is the only one who can reform the FBI and restore trust in the FBI in the way that Donald Trump wants it. So that's some of the thinking I know that's been kind of going on behind the scenes at Mar-a-Lago over this decision.

BROWN: It's an open question whether Patel will be confirmed by the Senate. We know that some of Trump's Cabinet picks are heading to Capitol Hill this week, including today, to meet with some senators. What more can you tell us about that?

TREENE: That's right. I was told by two sources familiar with the meetings this week that a number of his Cabinet picks, including Tulsi Gabbard, his pick to be the Director of National Intelligence, also Pete Hegseth, his pick to lead the Pentagon, as well as Pam Bondi, his pick to be attorney general, all of them are slated to have meetings with senators this week behind closed doors.

And look, this has a key strategy for Donald Trump. He moved so swiftly to fill out his cabinet in top roles for his second administration. But one key thing is this question around will they get confirmed? And that's really been consuming a lot of the time that the transition is focusing on now, trying to make this as smooth as possible.

And part of that is bringing them to Capitol Hill to have these meetings one-on-one with senators before their Senate confirmation process really plays out in public. And that's especially important, Pamela, for some of these more controversial picks with Hegseth, who's being dogged by several allegations of sexual assault and -- and mismanagement and drunken behavior.

But there's also, you know, questions about other picks as well. Tulsi Gabbard, she's going to have to confront some of the controversial comments that she's made about surveillance and -- and the way that the government has handled that. So this is really their way of trying to see what hurdles and key vulnerabilities these different picks have before this plays out, once they are officially nominated and go through this process. Pamela?

BROWN: All right. Alayna Treene, thanks for bringing us the latest there. We appreciate it. And I want to bring in CNN law enforcement contributor Steve Moore. He's a retired supervisory special agent with the FBI. So, Steve, how is President-elect Trump's choice of Kash Patel to lead your former agency landing with current FBI agents? I know you probably talk to a lot of them still.

STEVE MOORE, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, I've talked to probably dozens in the last year about the FBI in general during this time. And what I'm hear from them is there is very strong desire for new leadership at the FBI. There's a belief that since James Comey put his thumb on the scale with Hillary Clinton that we -- that we've had a politicized FBI and they want to end that.

The FBI has always been kind of your heartbeat. You know, if -- if everything's going fine, you never even think about it. That's what the FBI should do. It should below your sensory level and only come out in, you know, when -- when it's absolutely necessary. And they want to change.

[11:25:14]

BROWN: So they want to change. And from what I hear from you is they -- they want to move on from the idea that they're being, you know, politicized ever since James Comey investigated Hillary Clinton. But, like, is putting Kash Patel really going to do that? I mean, he is been outspoken about the FBI saying that he's going to fire the deep state within it and get rid of the headquarters and so forth. I mean, is he really the one to -- to bring in the new leadership that FBI agents are looking for?

MOORE: Well, I guess -- I guess I should have couched that. I didn't necessarily say that Kash Patel was the change they were looking for, but they are looking for significant change to depoliticize the FBI. And a concern now is that, look, we saw a president yesterday, put his family, put his son in front of the entire United States of America. It was -- it was, in my opinion, shameful.

And now what we might get and what people are afraid that the FBI would get is somebody who would put his -- an -- and allegiance to, say, a candidate or personality above the FBI and the United States. So I think what the FBI agents are looking for, both active and retired, is somebody who will come in and return the FBI to its -- its -- its days of protecting the United States, not protecting a specific administration.

I mean, they do believe that it's been used as a weapon in the last four years. And they believe at the same time that this is a guy who said that he wanted to get rid of the FBI's intelligence division, which is foolishness. So I think there's -- there's some frustration and there's some -- there's just some issues between who they want and what they want. And if -- if Patel would give them that, I think they'd be happy, but I think they're concerned he won't.

BROWN: Well, some Republican lawmakers have certainly voiced concerns, but this weekend, we also heard from a number who enthusiastically support Patel. Let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you have any reservations about Kash Patel serving in that role?

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): No. Donald Trump campaigned on reforming the FBI and the Department of Justice. So I don't know why any of this is, frankly, surprising to people.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): I think Kash Patel is a very strong nominee to take on the -- the partisan corruption in the FBI.

SEN. BILL HAGERTY (R-TN): There are serious problems at the FBI. The American public knows it. They expect to see sweeping change. And Kash Patel is just the type of person to do it.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: What's your response to that that this is, you know, Trump's victory was a mandate for change like this, putting in someone like Kash Patel to lead the agency?

MOORE: Well -- well, certainly I think there was a mandate for what Trump was saying. He got 50 percent of the vote. But at the same time, I -- I am concerned again that the allegiance Mr. Patel or potentially Director Patel would have would be to the president and not the United States. I'm not saying that was it. That's it. I -- I would hope that's not the case.

But the FBI does need to be reformed. There -- there, you know, we saw through Jim Strzok (ph) and those -- and those episodes where people were actively discussing on FBI cases how they could remove a candidate. So, I mean, there are some issues and it doesn't help when, you know, all this narrative that the President has been putting out, that the President-elect has been putting out there for the past months of the campaign was just in the minds of his -- of his voters, validated.

You know, it is a criminal group, these people will think because he pardoned his son for things he hadn't even been prosecuted for. So, yes, I think the pardon comes at a horrible time. So and I think that -- that --

BROWN: Go ahead. Yes.

MOORE: So I think that's -- I think what's happening, that -- that you might have an emboldened Patel move in as soon as they see what's happened in the last few days.

BROWN: All right, Steve Moore, thanks for providing your insights on what's going on inside the Bureau right now. We will certainly continue to cover this story. We appreciate it.

[11:29:44]

And still ahead this hour, attorneys are making their final arguments in the trial of Daniel Penney. This is the man who placed a homeless man in a fatal chokehold on a New York City subway, sparking nationwide outrage. We're going to have a live report up next.

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