Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsroom
Authorities Piecing Clues for the Killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO in New York; U.S. State Department Slams Amnesty Report and Finds Genocide Allegations in Gaza Unfounded. French President to Name New PM After Barnier's Resignation; CNN Reporters Share Experience During the 2019 Notre Dame Cathedral Fire. Aired 3-4a ET
Aired December 06, 2024 - 03:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[03:00:00]
KIM BRUNHUBER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to all of you watching us around the world. I'm Kim Brunhuber. This is CNN NEWSROOM.
Well, you're looking at one of the most important clues in the manhunt for the killer of a health care CEO in New York. We'll share what investigators are learning.
The leader of South Korea's ruling party is calling for the suspension of the president's powers following his controversial declaration of martial law.
And Syrian rebels captured Hama, forcing government troops to withdraw from the strategic city.
ANNOUNCER: Live from Atlanta, this is CNN NEWSROOM with Kim Brunhuber.
BRUNHUBER: Well we begin with a moment of flirtation that may have led to the person of interest in the killing of a healthcare CEO in New York to lower his guard.
Have a look at this. This image shows him smiling at a female employee at a hostel he stayed at before Wednesday's attack.
A law enforcement source tells us she asked him to lower his face mask while flirting with him, which revealed his face for the first time. He was wearing a mask in all other videos we've seen so far, but the man reportedly paid for it in cash and used a fake I.D. at the hostel, so it's not clear who he is.
Now this new footage shows him just blocks away from the scene, apparently walking to the site where he would carry out his attack.
The CEO of UnitedHealthcare, Brian Thompson, was gunned down on a sidewalk as he was headed to an investor conference. Sources are also telling us the suspected gunman arrived in New York on a bus that came from Atlanta. He said he also spent some time in the city, apparently preparing to carry out his plan.
Brynn Gingras has the story. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): New chilling images of a person who may be the focus of a massive manhunt, a person of interest to police seen here smiling.
These pictures put out by the NYPD and sources say they come from an upper Manhattan hostel where it's believed the shooter may have stayed before the Wednesday morning murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.
You can see this person has no mask on. It's a clear image of his face and police hoping this, along with a collection of photos released, will help name him. New York City Mayor Eric Adams commenting on the case.
MAYOR ERIC ADAMS (D), NEW YORK CITY: Pieces to the puzzle, but they are still coming together. We feel that we're moving at a steady pace and we're going to have someone apprehended.
GINGRAS (voice-over): Sources say they believe this person tried to hide his identity by wearing a mask for most of his visit, even while rooming with two strangers. But for this one moment at least, at the hostel's front desk, police were able to obtain this image.
The new development comes as investigators continue tracing the known movements of the gunman before and after the murder. Authorities say they have video of the suspected gunman on New York City's Upper West Side early Wednesday morning, then later exiting the 57th Street subway around 6:15. He enters a nearby Starbucks roughly two minutes later, where sources tell CNN he bought a water and two power bars.
And at 6:30, this surveillance video from a nearby garage shows the suspected shooter on the phone, walking down the street toward the Midtown Hotel, where minutes later he carries out the brazen attack.
ADAMS: In all of my years of law enforcement, I have never seen a silencer before. And so that was really something that was shocking to us all. And so we're on the right path and we believe we're going to apprehend this person.
GINGRAS (voice-over): The gunman makes a quick getaway, but not without leaving behind some crucial evidence. Investigators found a burner phone and that water bottle bought from Starbucks. Sources say a fingerprint was lifted from the items, but hasn't yet pointed to a name. Police are also searching for a motive.
Sources say at the crime scene they found a shell casing and live round etched with the words delay and depose. They're asking, was this retaliation over a healthcare issue? As a popular health care industry phrase is delay, deny and defend.
Brynn Gingras, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BRUNHUBER: CNN's chief law enforcement analyst says the fact that the person of interest revealed his face is a huge deal for investigators. Here's why.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: They've been looking and searching for that moment where, you know, he takes the hood back and pulls the mask down and just figures nobody's looking at me here. Nobody knows who I am.
That doesn't happen so far, except for that single moment at the check in in the hotel where he gives his fake New Jersey driver's license and the clerk at the desk is talking to him and, you know, she looks at the picture and looks at him and says, come on, let me see your face.
[03:05:07]
And he pulls down the mask and smiles for that one moment. And you know, they have this moment and that's it.
But that's the best clue they have. And I mean, put yourself in his head for a second. If I say no, no, I'm leaving my hood up, even though I'm indoors, I'm leaving my mask up.
That's going to attract attention. So maybe he just his guard slipped or maybe it was a calculated move to I'm going to take a risk to attract less attention. But that's the best clue to date.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRUNHUBER: A dramatic turn of events in South Korea, where the leader of the ruling party is now calling for the suspension of President Yoon Suk-yeol's powers.
Hundreds of protesters marched through central Seoul on Thursday, demanding that Yoon resign after his short-lived martial law declaration. The leader of Yoon's own People Power Party says he has credible evidence the president tried to use troops to arrest key political figures. Parliament is scheduled to vote on Yoon's impeachment as early as Saturday.
CNN's Anna Coren is following the latest developments live from Hong Kong. So, Anna, this reversal by the leader of the ruling party is the ruling party. I mean, it could have massive ramifications. Take us through the implications and the latest developments.
ANNA COREN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, absolutely, Kim. And look, there were rumors circling outside the National Assembly this afternoon that perhaps President Yoon was headed there. That has not transpired. It's just gone 5:00 in the afternoon in Seoul.
But we are yet to hear from President Yoon since late Tuesday night when he made that shock declaration of a martial law. We do know that South Korea's main parties have been holding emergency meetings throughout the day regarding that vote to impeach Yoon, potentially bringing it forward.
As you said, it's scheduled for 7 p.m. Saturday. But if the opposition Democratic Party, which holds majority in parliament, can actually get the numbers to pass the motion, it could happen sooner. They just need to win over eight votes from Yoon's ruling People Power Party.
And this, Kim, is no longer out of the question. Following the U-turn by Yoon's own party, you know, yesterday they had ruled that out and they were unified in that decision. And then this morning, the leader of the PPP said Yoon had to be suspended. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAND DONG-HOON, PEOPLE POWER PARTY LEADER (through translator): Yesterday, I said I would work to prevent this impeachment from passing in order to protect citizens and supporters from damage caused by unprepared chaos.
However, considering the new facts that are coming to light, I judge that an immediate suspension of President Yoon Suk-yeol's official duties is necessary to protect the Republic of Korea and its people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COREN: Now, those new facts that PPP leader Han Dong-hun is talking about, this credible evidence, he claims that Yoon had ordered the arrest of key politicians on anti-state charges on Tuesday night, including himself and other members of his own party.
And Han believes that if Yoon stays in office, he could declare martial law again, quote, "putting the Republic of Korea and its people at great risk."
And that's why we've seen lawmakers camping out at the National Assembly. But any notion that could happen again was ruled out by South Korea's special warfare commander earlier today, who said he would defy such orders.
But it is certainly clear, Kim, that Yoon's own party is now perhaps prepared to impeach him. And you just have to look at his approval ratings. They are at an all-time low at 13 percent. A recent poll has found that 70 percent of Koreans think that Yoon should be impeached. So you have this groundswell against the president.
We understand the national police have launched an investigation into Yoon and the former defense minister who allegedly encouraged Yoon to declare martial law. And we're also hearing a large number of labor unions, they've gone on strike saying that they won't return to work until Yoon is impeached.
You know, those threats could expand to other unions. And this obviously has economic ramifications for Asia's fourth largest economy. I should mention that protests are expected to continue and ramp up over the weekend if Kim, if Yoon, I should say, does not resign or if he is not impeached.
BRUNHUBER: Alright. We'll stay on top of all of that. Things poised on a knife's edge there. Anna Coren in Hong Kong. Thank you so much.
Foreign ministers from Syria, Iran and Iraq are planning to meet in Baghdad today to discuss the stunning rebel offensive that caught the Assad regime and its allies off guard.
Opposition forces have now taken over Hama. It's the second major city they've captured since launching a surprise attack last week.
[03:10:04]
(VIDEO PLAYING)
Syria's military says its troops had to withdraw from Hama after rebels entered several parts of the city.
Rebel fighters also freed hundreds of prisoners, saying they were all wrongfully detained. Some residents in Hama are now celebrating the rebel takeover.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHAMMAD SABAHI, RESIDENT OF HAMA (through translator): Thank God. We've been waiting for this day for a long time and we're all coming out on the street. This is the happiest day for us. We were afraid to go out at night. We've been waiting for this.
AHMAD SHRABI, RESIDENT OF HAMA (through translator): Feelings that can't be described. It's been 50 years we've been suffering injustice and crime and oppression. This is a historic moment, a priceless moment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BRUNHUBER: Rebels are vowing to push further south to Homs, the next major city on the road to the capital, Damascus. CNN's Ben Wiederman has been tracking the offensive and has this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The rebels have seized control of the central Syrian city of Hama, the country's fourth largest and one of huge symbolic significance. Yet the latest stinging defeat for President Bashar al-Assad's increasingly beleaguered regime.
After several days of clashes around the city, the rebels, led by Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, entered Hama Thursday and the regime forces pulled out. According to a statement from the Syrian army, the pullout was intended to avoid civilian casualties.
The rebels took control of an air base, complete with multiple warplanes, and freed inmates in Hama's notorious prison.
Hama has long been a hotbed of opposition to the Assad dynasty. It was in Hama in 1982 that Bashar al-Assad's father, then President Hafez al-Assad, crushed an uprising killing anywhere between 10,000 and 25,000 people, according to Amnesty International.
Last Friday, the armed opposition quickly seized control of most of Aleppo, Syria's second largest city. The next city on the highway south, Homs, is just 40 kilometers away, a critical crossroad linking the capital Damascus with the Mediterranean coast, home to the Alawite minority, which is the main bedrock of support for the Assad regime.
And if that regime was looking for help from its old ally Russia, well, it may not be immediately forthcoming. Thursday, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said Moscow is monitoring the situation and will decide on military aid depending on how the situation evolves. Hardly a full-throated declaration of support for a friend in need.
I'm Ben Wedeman, CNN, reporting from Rome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CNN's Jomana Karadsheh is the first Western journalist to report from Aleppo since the rebels took over. She spoke to some displaced Syrians who are now returning to their hometowns for the first time in years, despite fears that the battle isn't over.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We are in Aleppo's old city here by its historic, iconic citadel, and it's really surreal being in Syria's second city just days after that lightning offensive by rebel forces, where they managed to capture the city in a matter of days. And you look around here and it seems like business as usual.
Ahmed never left Aleppo, and she says their homes were destroyed. Her children are in Turkey and she hasn't seen them in years. And she's hoping now that the city has changed hands, that this means that she could see her children again.
Abdel was in Idlib, he's been there since the start of the war. And this is his first time back to a city.
He says they trust the rebels who are now returning them to their cities. And he says he's not afraid. Syrians have gone through so much and their resilience.
Just in the last few days, people have painted over this with the colors of the free Syria flag. And this is something you see around the city where people are trying to remove any signs of the Assad regime.
This is the Basil roundabout named after the deceased brother of the Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. And one of the first things that people did when rebel forces took over the city of Aleppo was topple the statue of Basil, a symbol of the Assad regime.
[03:15:05]
This is an area where there were fierce battles with regime forces. And since then, in the past few days, there's been an airstrike that killed many people. You can still see the aftermath of that. The blood on the floor here. And speaking to people in the city, this is what they fear.
They fear that there will be more Russian and Syrian regime airstrikes, that they will be back for the city of Aleppo.
Hamad, this is your first time back to Aleppo in 10 years?
MOHAMMED ALI JOUDEH, DISPLACED ALEPPO RESIDENT: 10 years, yes.
KARADSHEH: Did you ever imagine this moment possible?
JOUDEH: No, actually, no, no. We had in our imagination that we were going to come back. Actually, we had a lot of dreams about getting back to Aleppo, but we didn't actually believe that this moment was going to be true.
KARADSHEH: But are you worried about what might be coming?
JOUDEH: Of course, we all here, all the people here are worried about what's going to happen because the airstrikes always attacked us.
KARADSHEH: But you can imagine living here again.
JOUDEH: Of course, of course. I love my country. I love my, actually, all of the Syrian place, the Syrian country, our country. We hope it's going to be clear from the Assad regime, all the Syrians, not just Aleppo.
KARADSHEH: Speaking to people here, you get this sense of joy and relief to see the regime of Bashar al-Assad gone. But also there's this apprehension, anxiety, fear of what might be coming.
People don't really know what to expect from these rebel forces who've taken over Aleppo. But most people that we've spoken to say that their biggest fear is what the regime and its allies are going to do. A real fear of going back to the bloody days of the civil war in Syria.
Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, Aleppo, Syria.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BRUNHUBER: Russia's ruble is feeling the effect of Western sanctions and the conflict in Ukraine. Coming up, we'll speak with a top Russian banker about what lies ahead for the country's economy. And that's coming up after the break.
And the U.S. State Department responds to a new report accusing Israel of committing genocide in Gaza. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BRUNHUBER: The Kremlin says further military aid to the Syrian government depends on how the situation evolves. Russia has been one of the main backers of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. And Moscow says it remains in constant dialogue with Damascus. Russia, of course, played a key role in helping Assad's forces during the peak of the civil war between 2015 and 2017.
[03:19:58]
The head of one of Russia's biggest banks says the U.S. is putting the dollar at risk by using it as a weapon. Russia was blocked from using the currency for international transactions as a result of the conflict in Ukraine. Andrei Kostin is the CEO of Russia's state- controlled VTB Bank.
He spoke with CNN's Fred Pleitgen about the dollar and the state of Russia's economy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You just had an event with the Russian president where he talked about how strong the Russian economy is, how manufacturing is up, how economic growth is up.
However, there's a lot of unsettling economic indicators, like, for instance, inflation, like the weakness of the ruble. How concerned are you about the prospects for Russia's economy and what needs to be done to get it on the right track?
ANDREY KOSTIN, CEO, VTB BANK: Look, there is a war that lasted for nearly three years now. And there is a six, seven thousand different kind of sanctions against Russia. So you can hardly expect that everything is just as normal.
By taking into account, I think the results or the performance of the Russian economy is much, much better than everybody expected. The last sanctions and the actually election of Mr. Trump, which strengthened the dollar, by the way, right, led to the depreciation that the ruble is weaker. But today, it's already so much lower than it was yesterday or the day before. So I think it's more or less stabilizing.
PLEITGEN: What do you make of his threats against BRICS countries, that if they try to replace the dollar as the leading currency in the world?
KOSTIN: We all enjoyed using dollar, but the American side decided to put sanctions on Russia and other countries not to allow us to trade with dollars. So it not depends on us very much. You know, we can use dollar, but we have no chance now to do it.
So I think the American administration should think more about this, because it really creates, I think, a big threat to dollar itself, because, you know, if you don't feel -- if you don't feel safe with using dollar, you will find other ways how to make your investment, how to make your payments. So I think it should be, if it's international currency, it should be reliable, it should be non- political.
It should not be used for punishment of any country, whatever -- whatever American administration thinks about it. Otherwise, people will run away from dollar and they'll find a way. What we're doing now, we're trading in rubles and yuan and in digital currency, whatever.
PLEITGEN: Your economy is also driven by defense spending. I think about a third of the new budget will be spent on defense and military. How concerning is that for a lender? Because that also drives up prices, drives up inflation. And right now, controlling inflation while trying to keep that economic growth going has got to be a difficult thing.
KOSTIN: Yeah, well, we believe that we're forced to make such a big spending on the defense, because this was not basically our idea. But we have no choice at the moment. And that also contributed to inflation. It's also contributed to the lack of workforce, which we experienced.
You know, we have a very low unemployment, about 2.3 percent at the moment. And actually mainly because of the very big increase in the production of military products. So, yes, I mean, the answer is yes. But I'm afraid we have to leave the situation for some time.
Even when the war ends, you know, there will be more spending on restructuring military production. So basically, that's what we have, you know, nothing to add.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BRUNHUBER: And we should add, Kostin and VTB face sanctions by the U.S.
The U.S. State Department says it continues to find, quote, "that the allegations of genocide in Gaza are unfounded."
Now, earlier this week, Amnesty International said it had gathered, quote, sufficient evidence to believe that Israel's conduct during the war in Gaza amounts to genocide against Palestinians. The State Department spokesperson said it disagreed with the conclusions of Amnesty's almost 300-page report, which details evidence gathered over the course of nine months.
All right. For more now, we're joined live by Paula Hancocks in Abu Dhabi. So, Paula, take us through what the U.S. is saying and the reaction.
PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kim, the deputy spokesperson of the State Department rejected these allegations of genocide, the most recent coming from that near 300-page report from Amnesty International.
The spokesperson saying that they don't believe that this is founded and saying also that it is important to have reports like this. It is important to have NGOs, human rights groups like Amnesty International looking into what is happening in Gaza and analyzing what is happening.
But at this point, he's saying that the U.S. continues to find to find that allegations of genocide are unfounded.
[03:25:02]
Now, it's a very similar message to the one we heard from Israel, although from Israel, it was a more strongly worded message. We heard from the IDF saying that it was entirely baseless.
And the Ministry of Foreign Affairs even going so far as to call Amnesty International deplorable and fanatical, saying that the report was based on lies.
Now, what we saw within this report from Amnesty is that they say they focused on nine months of the war in Gaza, and they say that they did find sufficient evidence that Israel's conduct in the territory did amount to genocide.
They said that they found numerous incidents by the Israeli military or by government authorities, which went against three of the five acts that are banned by the U.N. Genocide Convention, including the mass killing of Palestinian civilians, causing serious bodily or mental harm and also inflicting conditions of life which were calculated to bring their physical destruction in whole or in part.
Now, the Israeli response has also pointed out that Amnesty did not take into consideration the operational realities on the ground for the Israeli military, pointing out that Hamas uses civilians as human shields. Also saying that Hamas's violations of international law were not highlighted either.
Now, the Amnesty report did acknowledge that Hamas does hide in densely residential areas and amongst the population. But this really is a fairly routine rejection of the claims of genocide from the United States. We have seen this repeatedly as these accusations surface and have been surfacing over several months.
BRUNHUBER: Yeah, that's right. And Paula, there's been a new development. Israel says its air force killed a leader of the October 7th Kibbutz attack. What are we learning about that?
HANCOCKS: So this is information that the Israeli military has just published, saying that they'd carried out a strike which killed a commander that they believe was responsible for the October 7th attacks on Nahal Oz. This is one particular Kibbutz, which was just along the border with Gaza, where a number of residents were killed, where others were taken hostage into Gaza.
They say they have killed that individual. They have also in this strike killed one of the members of the tunneling unit in Hamas as well. We haven't at this point heard any confirmation or any denial from Hamas itself.
But it does really speak to the fact that the Israeli military and we've heard also from the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, saying that the job is not done, that they still have targets in Gaza, which is why they he said he would support a ceasefire, but not an end to the war. Kim.
BRUNHUBER: All right. I appreciate all that. Paula Hancocks, thanks so much.
And I would like to thank you for joining me. I'm Kim Brunhuber, in Atlanta. Max Foster will pick up our coverage from London coming up right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[03:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: Live from London, this is CNN NEWSROOM with Max Foster.
MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR: Welcome to our viewers around the world. I'm Max Foster. You're watching CNN NEWSROOM.
Rebel forces are expanding their control of Syria, capturing a second major city in their week-long offensive against the Assad regime. Syria's military says its troops had to withdraw from Hama after rebels entered several parts of the city, which had never been seized during the civil war.
Rebel fighters also freed hundreds of prisoners, saying they were all wrongfully detained. Foreign ministers from Syria, Iran, and Iraq are planning to meet in Baghdad today to discuss the ongoing offensive.
CNN's Jomana Karadsheh sat down for an exclusive interview with the main rebel leader, Abu Mohammad al-Jolani. He says the Assad regime is dead and explains how his forces have been able to sweep through Syria.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Taking Hama, how significant is this for you right now?
ABU MOHAMMAD AL-JOLANI, LEADER OF HAYAT TAHRIR AL-SHAM (HTS) (through translator): From a military perspective, what comes after Hama will not be the same as what came before. However, I prefer not to be overly optimistic during the battle. I like to remain cautious and vigilant to avoid complacency and ensure we don't suffer losses while believing we are safe.
KARADSHEH: What comes after this? What's after Hama?
AL-JOLANI (through translator): The course of the battle. As for the secrets of the battle, let's leave them to the unfolding events. You will witness them in reality, which is better than discussing them now.
KARADSHEH: In a matter of days, you have taken major cities. What's changed? How are you able to do this now?
AL-JOLANI (through translator): In recent years, there has been a unification of internal opinions and the establishment of institutional structures within the liberated areas of Syria.
This institutionalization included the restructuring within military factions. They entered unified training camps and developed a sense of discipline. This discipline allowed them, with God's guidance, to engage in a battle in an organized manner.
The progress and execution of plans have been swift, with clear communication and adherence to commands. They stop where they should stop and withdraw where they should withdraw. The revolution has transitioned from chaos and randomness to a state of order, both in civil and institutional matters and in military operations alike.
KARADSHEH: Some believe this is happening because the allies of the Assad regime, the Russians, Hezbollah, Iran, that they're weakened, they're preoccupied with other wars. And this is why we are seeing this happen right now. And the Syrian regime itself weakened. Is this what is happening right now? Is this why you chose to launch this offensive right now?
AL-JOLANI (through translator): As you know, we are still in the midst of the battle, and discussing such details at this time is not wise.
KARADSHEH: But you faced more of a resistance in Hama than you did in Aleppo. What do you think happened? Why did the regime withdraw like it did?
AL-JOLANI (through translator): The seeds of the regime's defeat have always been within it. It has been effectively dead since that time. However, the Iranians attempted to revive the regime, buying it time, and later the Russians also tried to prop it up. But the truth remains, this regime is dead.
KARADSHEH: In the last year, it seemed like Bashar al-Assad survived the war. He was welcomed back into the Arab fold and on the world stage.
AL-JOLANI (through translator): The Arab country's evaluation of the situation was mistaken. Some Arab countries try to separate the regime from Iran's project. This is impossible. Even if the regime wanted this, it can't implement it.
It's a subservient relationship. Iran can disengage from the regime, but the regime can't.
[03:35:00]
To describe the regime as victorious is deeply unjust to the many children, people, women subjected to rape in prisons, displaced individuals scattered across the world, those drowning in the seas and those living in tents on the borders of other countries. What kind of victory are we talking about?
KARADSHEH: In the past, you have talked about strict Islamic rule. Is that still the plan?
AL-JOLANI (through translator): People who fear Islamic governance either have seen incorrect implementations of it or do not understand it properly. We are talking about something that aligns with the traditions and nature of the region.
The most important thing is to build institutions. We are not talking about rule by individuals or personal whims. It's about institutional governance.
Syria deserves a governing system that is institutional, not one where a single ruler makes arbitrary decisions.
KARADSHEH: Many Syrians are happy and will be happy to see the end of the Assad regime, but they're also worried about what HTS rule would mean, including minorities.
AL-JOLANI (through translator): No one has the right to erase another group. These sects have coexisted in this region for hundreds of years, and no one has the right to eliminate them. There must be a legal framework that protects and ensures the rights of all, not a system that serves only one sect as Assad's regime has done.
KARADSHEH: Listening to you speaking, you've gone through quite the transformation. Once an al-Qaeda leader, your group has had affiliations with al-Qaeda, with ISIS, and now you are projecting this image of a moderate leader and a moderate group. What is HTS right now?
AL-JOLANI (through translator): Hayat Tahrir al-Sham is one of the factions in the region, just like all the others. Now we're talking about a larger project. We're talking about building Syria.
Hayat Tahrir al-Sham is merely one detail of this dialogue, and it may dissolve at any time. It's not an end in itself, but a means to perform a task confronting this regime.
Once that task is complete, it will transition to a state of governance, institutions, and so on. I believe that everyone in life goes through phases and experiences, and these experiences naturally increase a person's awareness.
A person in their 20's will have a different personality than someone in their 30's or 40's, and certainly someone in their 50s.
KARADSHEH: So are those days behind you?
AL-JOLANI (through translator): Sometimes it's essential to adjust to reality, and because someone who rigidly clings to certain ideas and principles without flexibility cannot effectively lead societies or navigate complex conflicts like the one happening in Syria.
KARADSHEH: People listening to this are going to wonder why they should believe you. You are still a specially designated global terrorist by the United States with a $10 million bounty on your head. Your group is a prescribed terrorist organization by the United States, by the U.N., by the E.U., and others.
AL-JOLANI (through translator): I say to people, don't judge by words, but by actions. I believe the reality speaks for itself. These classifications are primarily political and at the same time wrong.
I define a terrorist as someone who intentionally kills civilians, harms innocents, or displaces people. If we're being honest, many of the wars waged by major powers in Arab, Muslim, and even non-Muslim countries have involved the deliberate killing of thousands, the destruction of homes, and the displacement of millions. Even the regime itself is guilty of such actions.
KARADSHEH: What the U.S. and others would say is that you were part of groups that did exactly that.
AL-JOLANI (through translator): Personally, I have not done these things. The situation must be understood in its historical context. There was a massive war in Iraq that deeply stirred people's emotions, prompting many to go there. The circumstances of that war led people to various places and my path led me to one of those locations.
Given my level of awareness and my young age at the time, my actions evolved to where I am today. I didn't go to Iraq with those intentions. I went to defend the Iraqi people.
When I returned to Syria, I didn't want to bring what happened in Iraq into Syria. That's why there were disagreements between us and ISIS.
KARADSHEH: People would be wondering why you've agreed to speak with us.
AL-JOLANI (through translator): What is happening in Syria is significant for the entire world. This event has positive repercussions globally because under the regime's rule, Syria became a source of concern and trouble for everyone.
[03:40:00]
Stabilizing Syria will bring many people back. Today, in the liberated areas, about one-third of the population lives in camps, approximately 1.5 million people. I believe we can soon reach a point where there are no camps.
With the rehabilitation of the liberated areas, people will return to their homes. Many refugees in Turkey will likely return, as will a significant number of refugees in Lebanon and Jordan. Even refugees in Europe may return to rebuild their country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: Now, an attorney for Pete Hegseth says his client is filling out the paperwork for an FBI background check. The former Fox News host and army veteran is Donald Trump's pick for defense secretary.
Hegseth has been meeting with lawmakers on Capitol Hill this week ahead of his confirmation hearings. He's repeatedly denied allegations of excessive drinking and sexual misconduct, and Trump is standing by his choice despite reports that he's already considering other possible candidates to lead the Pentagon. French President Emmanuel Macron is vowing to appoint a new prime
minister in the coming days as the country's political crisis deepens. Macron went on television on Thursday to address the shake-up in the government, a day after Prime Minister Michel Barnier was ousted in a no-confidence vote. Barnier officially resigned on Thursday.
CNN's Jim Bitterman has more from Paris.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JIM BITTERMAN, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: In a brief speech to the nation, less than 10 minutes, Emmanuel Macron explained to people exactly what happened and came as close as I think we're ever going to hear a mea culpa from him for having dissolved the parliament in the first place, which was what started this at the beginning of the summer.
Nonetheless, he struck out in a very sharply critical tone against his opponents on both the extreme-right and extreme-left. He said, I'll never accept responsibility or the irresponsibility of others, especially the members of parliament who consciously chose to bring down France's budget and government just a few days before Christmas.
It is the opposite of their program. They have chosen disorder. And to those critics on both sides of the aisle who have been calling for Macron to step down, he explained that it is not going to happen.
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): The mandate you have democratically entrusted to me is a five year term and I will exercise it to the full. My responsibility is to ensure the continuity of the state, the smooth running of our institutions, the independence of our country and the protection of all of you.
BITTERMAN: The tone of the speech was something that some people will think is patronizing. But in fact, he was just trying to explain his position and his feelings about what's transpired here. And while we didn't get the name of a new prime minister, he promised that there would be a name forthcoming in the next few days.
Jim Bitterman, CNN, Paris.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
Coming up, half a million people are living in displacement camps in war-torn Sudan, but now thousands are fleeing that camp because of attacks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[03:45:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOSTER: Sudan's civil war has plunged the country into a humanitarian crisis. At least half a million people are living at a famine-stricken displacement camp in Darfur. This week, medics and activists say Rapid Support Forces fighting with the army renewed their shelling of the camp. The International Organization for Migration says more than 2,000 people have fled because of the attacks. The fighting has also disrupted deliveries of desperately needed aid.
Joining me now from Canada, Brian Adeba. He is a senior policy adviser on Sudan and South Sudan of The Sentry. Thank you so much for joining us. So often described as the overlooked conflict in the world right now,
so much more attention on the Middle East and Ukraine. Where are we with the war in Sudan?
BRIAN ADEBA, SUDAN AND SOUTH SUDAN POLICY ADVISER, THE SENTRY: Well, we are at a very dire state. The parties to the conflict are nowhere close to a resolution and atrocities are continuing unabated.
And the humanitarian situation is getting worse by the day. And as we move forward, there is likely no respite in sight. And it behooves the international community to take some action as we move forward.
FOSTER: Take us through what's happened at this latest camp, this latest incident at the camp.
ADEBA: Well, it's been besieged. It already has a significant amount of people living in it as a result of being displaced in the war that happened in 2004.
And then right now as al-Fashir is being besieged, thousands have actually left the city to seek refuge in the camp. And what is happening right now as a civil defense force that comprises of armed groups that are supportive of the government and that have been defending al-Fashir and as a result of their shelling have been forced to retreat into the camp according to the RSF.
So the RSF right now then is shelling the Zamzam refugee camp and saying that it's doing so because there are armed elements there and that these elements are at risk to the RSF themselves. And that's why they are shelling Zamzam refugee camp. And that will of course increase the humanitarian disaster in that camp, which is already facing a lot of stress.
FOSTER: You know, these allegations of human rights violations, they occur, don't they, in every war. But both sides are equally being accused of violating war law, if you like.
ADEBA: And that's true. But if you also look at what's happening, it is like the Sudan Armed Forces is being considered as the lesser evil in this, which I think is a mistake because we have to look at the original scene here.
And the original scene here is the Sudan Armed Forces creation of the RSF. And it would be appropriate to also hold accountable leaders of their staff of the Sudan Armed Forces for the atrocities that are happening at the moment. That being said, there is need to exert external pressure on the
parties in this conflict so that the humanitarian crisis in Sudan comes to an end and peace is withheld.
FOSTER: Obviously, some aid groups operating there, not enough, according to many people within the country. But in terms of negotiators, are other countries actively trying to get involved in some sort of peace talks?
ADEBA: Well, the United States has led the most significant peace effort right now. But with the transition to a new administration, we expect that things could likely slow down. But I think there should be no let up in efforts to find a resolution to the conflict. And that should take a number of approaches.
FOSTER: There are, as I said, other conflicts going on in the world, which are getting a lot more attention internationally, at least. Is this part of the problem?
Exactly as you described there, America, which would typically get involved in any sort of negotiations in all of these conflicts is just spread very thin. And we're moving into a new administration. We don't know how they're going to view sort of African policy, for example.
[03:50:03]
ADEBA: Absolutely, that's one of the concerns. And indeed, this conflict has been sort of obscured by other conflicts. There's the conflict in Gaza, there's Ukraine, and then there's the impending transition in the United States. Those are all factors that would sort of take away attention from the Sudanese conflict.
But I think that given the humanitarian disaster that's unfolding, it behooves of the international community to refocus attention on the Sudanese conflict.
FOSTER: Okay. Thank you so much for joining us. Brian Adeba, will speak to you again to try to keep this conflict exposed, really.
Now coming up, years of painstaking renovation work are about to be on display when the beloved Notre Dame Cathedral reopens this weekend. That story just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOSTER: After more than five years, Paris' magnificent Cathedral Notre Dame is reopening this weekend. The city's preparing for an official ceremony on Saturday. Catholic dignitaries, heads of state, celebrities all expected to attend.
The inaugural mass is scheduled for Sunday morning, followed by eight days of special masses and prayers. Hundreds of artisans, carpenters, and other specialists work tirelessly to restore the treasured Gothic Cathedral after a devastating fire tore through it, particularly the roof, in 2019.
The day Notre Dame went up in flames shocked the world. Take a listen to CNN reporters who remember the chaos on the ground.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARK ESPLIN, CNN PHOTOJOURNALIST: We got the phone call that there was a fire in Notre Dame. So we ran out the door. You could already see the bloom of smoke.
SASKYA VANDOORNE, CNN SR. PRODUCER: I just saw flames atop Notre Dame. I was stopped in my tracks. That image will always, you know, forever stay in my mind.
ESPLIN: As we arrived, so did the crowds and it's really chaos.
MELISSA BELL, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think all at once there was the shock that could have happened, the fact that it was spiraling out of control, the way the flames continued to grow.
ESPLIN: There's lots of people crying. You're looking around, you really felt like you were witnessing a moment in history.
VANDOORNE: It must have been around 10 p.m. or 11 p.m. Parisians started kneeling, praying, some were crying.
A moment of kind of reflection, calm in all that madness. I still have chills thinking about it.
ESPLIN: The first time we went in, the most striking part was where the spire had collapsed through the ceiling. This huge hole of like burnt out wood.
Everything is still covered in soot, broken glass everywhere. It really feels like you're walking through a fire.
You sort of forget how big trees are when they're 100 years old.
We then went back to a workshop where people were carving and forming the shapes of those beams with the trees that we'd seen felled. They've brought these techniques from hundreds of years ago into the present and have managed to pull it off.
[03:55:08]
BELL: I think I was struck most by just how painstaking and elaborate their work was. There were woodworkers, there were stonemasons, there were individual crafts.
ESPLIN: It's just this endless pylon of scaffolding.
VANDOORNE: I remember going in and just thinking how they're going to get this done in time.
BELL: The drones allowed us to see in intricate detail and above human eye level the stonework, the beams, the paintings. Everything that makes Notre-Dame so remarkable in its detail.
VANDOORNE: It's so much more than just a cathedral. Notre-Dame is Paris. It's a place where I hope to bring my children once it reopens.
BELL: Anyone going back in will have their own personal journey of what it means. I'll, yes, probably go back to my childhood when I go back inside of course. The world will rediscover what they'd forgotten, their own Notre-Dame.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: Now NASA's Artemis moon landing program facing more delays as the agency announces it's pushing back two planned missions. One mission to fly astronauts around the moon next year has been delayed to 2026 and the moon landing originally set for 2026 has been pushed back to 2027.
NASA says the delays are linked to issues with the heat shield on the Orion crew capsule that'll be home to the astronauts during the missions. The heat shield, which keeps the craft from burning up in Earth's atmosphere, eroded in an unexpected way during an uncrewed mission back in 2022.
U.S. football star Tom Brady selling his collection of timepieces and sports memorabilia at an auction at Sotheby's in New York, calling it the first of its kind. The 21 watches made by such luxury manufacturers as Patek Philippe and Rolex are estimated to go for millions of dollars.
There's the last helmet he wore with the New England Patriots and Brady's wristband, which he wore at Super Bowl 51, estimated to fetch up to $180,000. Nicknamed the GOAT collection for the Greatest of All Time, the auction is set for next Tuesday. Brady said, I hope they bring as much joy and inspiration to fans as they did for me.
Thanks for joining me here on CNN. I'm Max Foster, in London. I'll be back after a break with more CNN NEWSROOM.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
