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Sources Say, New York City Suspected Shooter Traveled to New York by Bus; Killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Unleashes Anger Over Health Insurance System; Ex-Wife of Oath Keepers Leader Fears His Possible Pardon. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired December 06, 2024 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR: Right now, on the run and eluding authorities. The suspect behind the deadly shooting of UnitedHealthcare CEO is missing but leaving game changing clues behind, like this flirtatious moment making this picture possible.

Plus, President-elect Donald Trump doubling down on Pete Hegseth to be defense secretary as his future remains in peril.

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PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY NOMINEE: I'm not going to back down from them one bit. I will answer all of these senators' questions, but this will not be a process tried in the media. I don't answer to anyone in this group, none of you, not to that camera at all.

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ACOSTA: And the DOGE dodge, Elon Musk and your Social Security.

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MANU RAJU, CNN ANCHOR AND CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Elon, is Social Security and Medicare, is it off the table? Is it off the table?

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ACOSTA: All right. Good morning. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. You are live in the CNN Newsroom.

We begin with new developments in the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Police believe the suspected shooter arrived in New York City ten days before the shooting after traveling on a Greyhound Bus that started in Atlanta. From there, officials say he moved around the city before checking into a local hostel.

That stay giving investigators this picture of what they're calling a person of interest after this moment of flirting with a female employee, we're told, was captured on camera. And breaking just moments ago, the parent company of UnitedHealthcare, notifying employees of enhanced security at its campuses.

Former FBI profiler Candice DeLong joins us now to unpack all of this for us. Let's talk about that bus ride arriving in New York long before the shooting. What do you make of that timeline? And coming all the way from Atlanta, I suppose that makes it possible that perhaps he's known in Atlanta.

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Possible, however, he could be from somewhere else in Atlanta was his jumping off point. This is a smart guy. This has been very well planned out. And the reason I think for a bus rather than an airplane is the gun. Being on a bus, he would be inconspicuous and would not have to go through all the problems that would arise at an airport with a gun.

ACOSTA: And that hostel employee said she asked police, you know, they're calling a person of interest at this point to drop his mask as she checked him in. And it looks to be in this photo that he's flirting with her or smiling at her. Could that just be a mistake that ultimately leads to his capture?

DELONG: Yes, I think it was. He probably didn't count on that. He had everything planned except being asked to drop his mask. He could have easily said I'd rather not. I'm getting over the flu or I'm in chemotherapy. He could have said a number of things that could excuse not removing the mask, but she caught him off guard and that could be his undoing. Because there's no doubt in my mind the NYPD has to have had many, many calls by now of people that know this guy.

ACOSTA: Right. And the surveillance cameras captured his moves from the subway to a Starbucks, to the shooting itself. But more than, I mean, 8 million people live in New York City. Do you think it's possible he's still in the city because it is so easy to blend in there? I mean, if you go to Manhattan, especially on a day like today where it's cold, a lot of people in hoodies, a lot of people with face masks on.

DELONG: Right. At this point, he can be 1 in 8 million. Do I think he's left? It's hard to say, possible. I mean, you can get lost in New York for years. I think we both agree with that.

ACOSTA: Yes, that's true. But, I mean, if he is on the run, if he's moving, there are lots of different ways he could be tripped up at this point.

DELONG: Yes. Oh, the pressure's on because of that picture, because, you know, it's an age old story. Beauty killed the beast. She said, oh, let me see your face. And he just said, okay, and pulls his mask down and here we are.

ACOSTA: Yes, it's a pretty clear view of what he looks like. You have to think at this point maybe authorities don't have an idea of who he is or have some suspicions as to who he might be.

Candice DeLong, thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

And this shooting is also unleashing a wave of anger and frustration on social media about the state of our country's health insurance system. Take a listen.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Of course, I would have been happy to send my condolences after the united healthcare CEO was killed this afternoon. However, unfortunately sympathy requires a prior authorization, and I have to deny that request.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They also denied my son his AFOs, ankle, foot orthotics, because he did have a stroke, so half of his body doesn't work the same as the other half, and he needs those to walk. They denied him because he grew too fast. They said, he just had some five months ago. I was like, yes, and then he grew, because he was two years old, and two year olds tend to do that. And they're like, well, we can't cover a new pair. I'm sorry, that'll have to be out of pocket.

Sorry, my son's growing too quick for you. We expect two year olds not to grow for six months or more, if you're wondering. I'm just saying my thoughts and prayers were also denied.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Lift this knee. Can you move that ankle? Now, I'll help you to the bathroom. I had to give her haircuts and showers. And until you've had to do that with your own mother, you can't know what it's like. But to UnitedHealthcare, she was a number. She was a dollar amount, $90 billion dollars in profits. And anyone on here who is saying, oh, all of you commenters have no compassion for him, you're right. We don't.

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ACOSTA: Those posts are part of a growing online trend of Americans expressing their personal struggles with UnitedHealthcare insurance following the CEO's death.

CNN's Clare Duffy joins me now. Clare, a lot of outrage over denied insurance claims, and it's just sparked an entire discussion on social media. How big of a problem is this?

CLARE DUFFY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Jim, look, I mean, obviously there is never a justification for this kind of violence. But I think what we're seeing in the social media reaction is this pent up frustration and anger and distrust that so many Americans feel over the health insurance industry.

And it is a big problem. I mean, look, we've spoke with healthcare experts who say this is a thing that often -- these healthcare claim denials are a thing that often causes people anxiety and frustration. And it's a really common problem. More than half of Americans, 58 percent say, that they have experienced some kind of problem with their health insurance over the past year, including denial of claims, preauthorization issues, those kinds of things. And of that 58 percent, 15 percent of those respondents say that it actually caused problems with their health anxiety or delays in the treatment that they received.

And so this is an ongoing problem, but I think we're seeing that really bubble up to the surface in the wake of this news.

ACOSTA: Yes. And, Clare, one of our colleagues spoke to a health insurance expert that said, overall, there's no overall denial rate data for the private market. Why is this number so hard to find? I suspect maybe they're hiding it a little bit. What can you tell us?

DUFFY: Well, yes, Jim. It looks like at this point, they're just generally not required to release that data. So, it is hard to find information about which of the insurers perhaps denies more claims than others. One of the interesting things that UnitedHealthcare has come under fire for in particular is its use of artificial intelligence to decide about claims. There was a lawsuit filed last year, a class action over the use -- alleged use, I should say, of A.I. to deny claims for elderly patients. And it found that most of those claims in the end after they were fought over were approved.

But I think there's a sort of growing feeling like these companies have a lot more power than the individual patients that they're dealing with.

ACOSTA: All right. Clare Duffy, thank you very much.

Joining me now is Wendell Potter, a former health insurance industry executive turned whistleblower and the president for the Center for Health and Democracy.

Wendell, you testified in front of Congress in 2009, talked about how insurance companies were routinely canceling the coverage of policyholders who got sick. You and I got to know each other a little bit during that run-up to the passage of Obamacare. And I guess what goes through your mind when you hear some of these stories today in light of the fact that, I mean, the discussion during the passage of Obamacare, the signing of Obamacare was that that legislation, the ACA, was supposed to fix a lot of these problems, apparently not.

WENDELL POTTER, PRESIDENT, CENTER FOR HEALTH AND DEMOCRACY: It was. And a big problem then, as you recall, was we had about 50 million Americans who didn't have health insurance. And this was, this did, that law did bring a lot of people into coverage. But what we're seeing now is that people who have coverage are not able to get the care that they need and that has become the big problem here. And what we heard this morning, what we've been hearing over the past several days, is this pent up frustration.

And it's notable that this occurred in New York City. This tragic murder was just before Investor day for this big company. And the point I'm making here is that shareholders and Wall Street financial analysts are the most important stakeholder for that company and others. I used to plan sickness investor days. And the way that these companies satisfy those investors is by restricting access to care. And that's why they're using A.I. to deny access and why we're seeing so many people now not getting the care that they need, not getting medically necessary care that they need in this. ACOSTA: And I remember, Wendell, you were exposing a lot of this at the time in the late 2000s, early 2010s, as a whistleblower in the industry.

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And just yesterday, Anthem Blue Cross, it was reported, reversed its decision to limit anesthesia coverage during some surgeries and procedures. And so these kinds of shenanigans are still going on and it's just, this is the way they make profits.

POTTER: That's exactly right. I wrote about that for my newsletter yesterday about Anthem's decision to finally reverse that, but only after there was outrage, after it became a -- you know, people were aware that this was happening. Most people -- most of these stories never reach the media. But day in and day out in this country, thousands, untold numbers of Americans are not getting the care that they need.

They have insurance, they're paying premiums. They have high out-of- pocket costs too. But in many cases the way that these companies assure profits for Wall Street is by denying and denying and denying care.

ACOSTA: And we get these bills in the mail, these explanation of benefits letters in the mail, and it has all these numbers and it says we're going to cover this much, but you're going to pay that much. And there's just no way. to make heads or tails of any of this. There's no, any average American, regular American out there can look at this stuff and make any sense of it. And this is all to the industry's benefit.

POTTER: It is. And when I was in the industry, one of the things I advocated was trying to make those EOBs more understandable. And I was told, no, that's not going to happen. Because the more people are confused, the less information they have, the better it is for these companies. And that's the problem we're having.

And so I'm not surprised to see this kind of outrage. And I'm hoping that here in Washington that we will see policymakers begin to pay attention to realize that Americans with insurance are not getting the care that they need.

ACOSTA: More reform is needed?

POTTER: More reform absolutely is needed. And we need to address prior authorization. We need to make sure there is data. We need to know what the claim denial rates are. We need to ratchet down these exorbitant out-of-pocket costs that people are experiencing, even with insurance. And we need to make sure that the networks of doctors and hospitals are adequate, and, increasingly, they are not.

ACOSTA: Yes. I mean, I just can't imagine limiting anesthesia coverage. I mean, to me, what -- how are you supposed to go without that if you're going through a surgery or something like that? It just seems -- it's just mind boggling. POTTER: It is mind boggling. And it's reminiscent. I was in the industry in the late 90s and early 2000s. And back then, they were limiting access to a stay in the hospital for, you may remember this, a mastectomy and a delivery. They were saying that new mothers can't stay in the hospital for a full day.

This is similar kind of tactics. They will test to see what they can get away with. Because of the pressure from Wall Street, all these companies are New York Stock Exchange traded companies, and they have to meet shareholders' expectations or their stock will go down and the net worth of these executives will go down.

ACOSTA: All right. Wendell Potter, thank you very much. We appreciate those insights. Please come back as the story evolves.

Coming up, a very important interview coming up, the ex-wife of this man, Stewart Rhodes, founder of the Oath Keepers, literally fearing for her life. Will her ex-husband be pardoned with the rest of the January 6th rioters? She joins me to talk about that next.

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ACOSTA: After President Biden pardoned his son, Hunter, it didn't take long for Donald Trump to renew his promise to do the same for the people convicted in the assault on the Capitol on January 6th. That vow has some families of the January 6th attackers worried about their own safety.

Trump has repeatedly expressed sympathy for the people he calls the J6 hostages, which they're not, all part of a promise he made out on the campaign trail.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will you pardon the January 6th rioters who were convicted of federal offenses?

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT-ELECT: I am inclined to pardon many of them. I can't say for every single one because a couple of them, probably they got out of control.

They should immediately be released, immediately, the J6 hostages.

They ought to release the J6 hostages. They've suffered enough. They ought to release them. I call them hostages. Some people call them prisoners. I call them hostages.

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ACOSTA: Trump transition spokeswoman Karoline Leavitt told CNN he will make pardon decisions on a case-by-case basis.

Joining us now to talk about this is Tasha Adams. She's the ex-wife of Stewart Rhodes. He's the founder of the Oath Keepers, a far right militia. And, Tasha, thank you so much for being with us.

Prosecutors have said it was one of the main groups in the January 6th attack. We all remember what took place on that day and your husband, your ex-husband, I should say, was convicted of seditious conspiracy and sentenced to 18 years in prison. So, it's not just rioters who are involved in this, just to remind people. What was your reaction to Trump once again floating this idea of pardoning these January 6th rioters and insurrectionists?

TASHA ADAMS, EX-WIFE OF OATH KEEPERS FOUNDER, STEWART RHODES: I mean, I really dislike the term rollercoaster, but there's nothing else that describes it as clearly that was waiting, waiting, waiting. Well, this person who, you know, abused his family, who kept us living in fear for, you know, year upon year, is he going to be held without bail? And he was. And is he going to be convicted? And he was. And is he going to be sentenced to a decent amount of time? Well, 18 years.

And I put a lot of faith into the system for that process. I testified at his bail hearing against him. I gave hours of testimony to the FBI, which was quoted by the judge's sentencing.

You know, I threw my hat over the fence, so to speak, and felt very happy and safe and started living a normal life with my kids.

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ACOSTA: Yes.

ADAMS: And now it could all come down again.

ACOSTA: Yes. Tasha, I mean, what is your concern? If Donald Trump gives a pardon to Stewart Rhodes and some of the other Oath Keepers, could your family be in jeopardy?

ADAMS: I think very much so. And we're, you know, hurrying up to try to make plans. You know, maybe we'll stay put. Maybe we'll move somewhere. Maybe we'll try to move somewhere and sort of disappear. I mean, I just don't really know what to do. I probably should have been more prepared for this. But I just -- it's just so unbelievable that this could happen.

ACOSTA: That Trump would even consider pardoning these people, is that -- that's what you can't --

ADAMS: All of it, that Trump got elected, that -- I mean, just from beginning to end, it just -- it blows my mind. I didn't even consider this when Stewart was convicted and sentenced. The idea that Donald Trump could even really run, seriously, it just seemed so outrageous that it -- you know, obviously, it's slowly became, you know, more and more real and eventually he was elected. But, yes, it's just wild that we're here and facing this now after so much work and after so many people work so hard to understand what was going on during January 6th and to convict the people who are guilty and to have that all upended possibly is just outrageous.

ACOSTA: And you applied for a restraining order in 2018 but was denied, if I have that correct. Are you going to try for another one? What are your plans?

ADAMS: Yes, I think I would start there. I mean, Stewart Rhodes is a very dangerous person. He's dangerous to us, as his family. Certainly, he's dangerous to all of America. Right now, he's regrouping and rebranding. He's writing a sub stack from prison, you know, the Oath Keeper. He's already gathering his forces. I mean, he's planning for it right as we speak. So, it's a scary thought.

ACOSTA: Yes. So, your concern is that if he gets out, he could try this again, something like this again?

ADAMS: I mean, he -- yes. And he is very much -- he has a personality that's very much like what you would call a cult leader personality. And this, trying to create chaos so that he can take over some type of control is something he's tried again and again. And if people are familiar with the Bundy Ranch standoff, that was -- Stewart Rhodes was behind that.

I mean, he's tried this multiple times. January 6th is the first time he's really had enough people behind him and gathered enough of an audience and joined forces with Trump followers and became one of them that he was able to really, really create some serious chaos. And he's a dangerous man.

ACOSTA: Tasha, we should note, Rhodes' attorney told USA Today this about the claims that he poses a threat to you and your family. The lawyer says there's simply no basis in fact for this allegation. A statement like this is libelous and defamatory because it's so false, and there's no basis in fact. He also said there were no allegation of threats during the divorce proceedings.

I know you feel strongly that that is not the case. What's your response to all that? I just want to make sure we get that out there because we tried to reach out to his side and we didn't get much. So --

ADAMS: Yes, that is actually completely false. Initially, my divorce was sealed and unavailable. So, often, Stewart and his attorneys would say a lot of outrageous things like that about the divorce, knowing they couldn't be checked up on. But that has since been opened up, and it's very clear that we discussed abuse and violence. And that's almost all we discussed in the divorce, in court, and in court paperwork.

Also, Stewart is a public person. The idea of libel is a little bit different. Your ex-wife can quote court documents and discuss how you were violent in the home without being libelous.

ACOSTA: Right. And, Tasha, I mean, I guess, what are your worries about all of this? And do you think the country is prepared for the fallout and what may happen if Trump issues, you know, blanket pardons, mass pardons, for these folks who are convicted of attacking the Capitol on January 6th?

[10:25:14] ADAMS: I mean, normally, when we hear of pardons, chiefly, they are for drug crimes, they are for, you know, people who have lived quiet lives and for the most part and had some mistakes. We don't normally have someone who actively attack the United States. And people who say it's not personal, they don't know Stewart Rhodes and they don't know what he's capable of. And I don't think they can really understand the level of chaos that he can create and the level of violence he can create. It's just outside of most people's worldview. And I think that that's why they're not understanding how dangerous this really is.

ACOSTA: Yes. Do you think people have just tried to put their heads in the sand when it comes to January 6th, try to forget about it, put it out of their minds, it wasn't that bad, that kind of thing?

ADAMS: Yes, I really think so, unfortunately.

ACOSTA: Well, Tasha Adams, please keep us posted on how things are going on your end. We really appreciate your time this morning. Thanks for taking the time to speak to us.

ADAMS: Yes, thank you for having me back.

ACOSTA: All right, good to see you. Thank you.

Coming up, Elon Musk dodging questions that DOGE is targeting Social Security. I'll discuss more with Senator Jeff Merkley after the break.

We'll be right back.

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