Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

New Felony Charges in Fake Electors Case; Interview With State Rep. Brian Bergen (R-NJ); New Evidence Ties CEO Murder Suspect to Crime; Mystery Drones. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired December 12, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:31:12]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, we have some new developments in the murder of health insurance CEO Brian Thompson.

New evidence may bolster the case against his alleged killer. Police in New York now say the 3-D-printed gun that Luigi Mangione was carrying when he was arrested matches three shell casings found at the murder scene.

And this comes just hours after police announced that his fingerprints were also found nearby.

Joining us now is NYPD Deputy Commissioner of Intelligence and Counterterrorism Rebecca Weiner.

Thank you so much for joining us.

So you have fingerprints, you have ballistic evidence. Do you have any DNA matches?

REBECCA WEINER, DEPUTY COMMISSIONER, NYPD COUNTERTERRORISM: So all of the investigative process is under way. It's proceeding quickly. It's proceeding seamlessly.

And it will continue to get us to where we need to be.

BROWN: Do you have returns, though, yet on the DNA?

WEINER: So all of our investigators are working through all of that. The police commissioner did announce yesterday the fingerprint matches to a water bottle, to a KIND bar and also the ballistic evidence.

BROWN: OK, so you can't talk about the DNA matches.

Mangione, for his part, seemingly vanished for months. One law enforcement source tells CNN that Mangione's mother reported him missing last month and had not spoken to him since July. And he seems to have withdrawn even from social media. What are family and friends telling investigators to help fill in that gap, that critical gap between Hawaii and San Francisco and what might have happened to him?

WEINER: So as the investigation is proceeding in terms of the technical parts, putting the pieces together, there's also, of course, a real interest in what might have happened in the trajectory of the defendant's life, the mind-set, the motivation.

And so that's coming from his own statements. That's also coming from interviews from friends and family to put together a more concrete picture.

BROWN: And what kind of picture is emerging?

WEINER: And so it's a complex picture, which is, I think, why there's been such sustained interest by so many around the world in this incident, and a lot of armchair diagnostics from members of the public, also from the media, trying to discern from information that's available, digital dust, on what we see happening and how his life seemed to turn a pretty right-hand corner.

All of that, of course, we do it methodically, we do it carefully, and we will come up with a very concrete picture as we proceed with our investigation.

BROWN: But how much -- just help us better understand that right-hand turn you talked about turning the corner. Can you give us any better understanding of that? I know that there's been a lot reported about back pain that he had and medical issues he had.

Does that seem to be playing a big role here? I mean, just help us better understand to the extent that you can.

WEINER: So I think there's a lot of factors at play.

And also keep in mind that, as we're in these stages of an investigation, we're latching on to a particular set of facts, something we're hearing from somebody, something we're seeing online. And those anecdotes do not data make, right? It's really dangerous to draw any conclusions that would take you in one direction or another before you have really done your whole investigation, talked to everybody that you feel you need to talk to.

So those gaps are going to be narrowing, but we still have a lot of questions around incidents in his life, personal grievances, stressors, and then commentary that's been made and talked at length about online.

[11:35:00]

BROWN: So Mangione had a manifesto in his possession railing against corporate greed, including the -- quote -- that these "parasites had it coming."

He also had that outburst as well that -- where we saw him when he was initially going into court, saying it's completely out of touch and an insult to the intelligence of the American people. It's lived experience.

You had mentioned that you're trying to piece all this together,what was going on with him, his mind-set from his own statements. Is he talking to investigators? Is he telling them about the manifesto that was found on him when he was arrested?

WEINER: So I think the manifesto, again, is another element that there's been so much scrutiny of, focus on, because it goes to this question of mind-set and motivation. And I think everybody is looking at this individual, who seemed to have so much potential, promise in his life and wondering what could have changed to lead to where we get to now.

And that is, again, all part of our investigative process, which is under way. Our detectives have done just a tremendous job putting this together as quickly as they have and will continue to do a tremendous job filling those gaps with the help of a lot of different entities as well, our intelligence analysts, forensics, cameras, all of that work.

And now we keep going. This is very much ongoing.

BROWN: I understand it's very much ongoing. I'm just hoping for any more specifics you can provide in terms of like why it was UnitedHealthcare, I mean, what kind of message he was trying to send there, why that company versus the others.

Can you provide any clarity on that?

Uh-oh. We just lost her. All right, well, we will hope to reconnect with Rebecca Weiner soon as we try to get some clarity on this investigation that is ongoing.

Still ahead this hour, we're going to continue the conversation of drones. Dozens of unidentified drones have been spotted flying over parts of New Jersey for the past month. And no one seems to know why. It's a mystery so bizarre the Department of Homeland Security is getting involved.

I will speak with one of the state officials who has been briefed on these sightings.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:41:45]

BROWN: Well, frustration is ramping up across New Jersey over a lack of answers about these drones, these mysterious drones, reportedly flying over parts of New Jersey almost every night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STATE REP. BRIAN BERGEN (R-NJ): Now I'm legitimately concerned for what the hell is going on, because nobody knows.

RYAN HERD, MAYOR OF PEQUANNOCK TOWNSHIP, NEW JERSEY: We are literally being invaded by drones, and we have no idea who's doing it and where they're coming from.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So those were two New Jersey officials moments after they walked out of a meeting with New Jersey State Police on Wednesday.

That first gentleman you just heard, Assemblyman Brian Bergen, also posted this: "Dear Governor Murphy, borrow me an Apache helicopter from the PA National Guard and I will put an end to this drone problem myself."

Bergen, we should note, is a former pilot with the Army. He also joins us now. Thank you so much for coming on.

So you decided to walk out of this meeting yesterday with the New Jersey State Police.

BERGEN: I did.

BROWN: You were not satisfied with what they were sharing with you. Why not?

BERGEN: Well, it was -- they didn't share anything. It was a totally useless meeting. There was no point to us being there. They could have literally text all 120 legislators and say, hey, we don't know anything, and that would have sufficed.

But we went down there to hear what we thought was going to be good- quality new information. And ultimately they had nothing. So it infuriated me, quite frankly.

BROWN: So, before the show today, I spoke to a law enforcement official, who says that there is no evidence that these drones pose a public safety threat or that there's any foreign nexus or national security threat. Do you accept that?

BERGEN: No.

I am so sick of that stupid rhetoric coming from people, because, listen, there are tons of these drones flying over the state of New Jersey, and we don't know where they're coming from, where they're going to and who's flying them.

By now, it's been all over the news. So you would think if it was Amazon or FedEx or UPS testing something or an insurance company checking out roofs for assessments, somebody would say something by now, but nobody.

So law enforcement in my opinion, and the whole government, State Police, Department of Homeland Security, the governor, they need to take this way more seriously and find out what's going on. In that briefing you mentioned, the State Police colonel said that he had one of his helicopters hovering over a six-foot drone and that he decided to tell the helicopter to land because he felt it was unsafe for his pilots.

What I think he should have done -- and I'm a former attack helicopter pilot myself -- is just follow the frigging thing. Find out where it's going. Do some real investigation, and let's put an end to all of the uncertainty.

BROWN: Yes, you note that you're a helicopter pilot.

Your fellow Assemblywoman Dawn Fantasia said that she thought this would likely end with military action. What do you think? Should that happen?

BERGEN: Well, first of all, I think Dawn Fantasia is an amazing assemblywoman. I want to get that out there on the record.

And I don't know. I mean, there should be some military intervention. I really honestly think that Governor Murphy should seriously consider, if he doesn't have any good, better information the next couple of days, mobilizing the National Guard, because if the State Police helicopter pilots can't track one of these things, let's get some Army pilots up there who know what they're doing and track these things to where that they land.

[11:45:08]

Because, yes, I think there might need to be some military intervention. I'm not talking about shooting things out of the sky. There's a lot of danger associated with that. And I have been at war. We don't want bullets flying around cities randomly, OK?

But there's -- we should be able to track and follow these things and figure out where they're coming from or going to.

BROWN: And do you know what the scope of this problem is? Because my understanding is, and from talking to law enforcement officials, there are also several cases where people see an airplane or something and call it in as it's one of these mysterious drones, when, in fact, it's not.

And so there's a fine line between, like, the hysteria and the reality of the situation, right? So can you help us understand the scope?

BERGEN: Yes. Yes, I sure can.

So I'm not -- I'm a practical guy. I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I don't jump on these things and run with them in a crazy way. I saw these drones with my own eyes above my town of Denville. And this was a couple days ago, and I didn't think much of it because, like I said, I thought there's a logical explanation, some commercial application.

Maybe FedEx is testing a delivery system and wants to do it at night. So I didn't really raise a stink about it. But then the Department of Homeland Security in this briefing were at, they said the same thing that you just mentioned. And this is law enforcement's kind of go-to, is, oh, well, we're doing some analysis. We're overlaying flight paths to see if this stuff is true.

Look, we had a colonel of the State Police tell us he had one of his helicopters hovering above a six-foot drone. You got a state assembly member in New Jersey who was a former attack helicopter pilot for the Army. And I helped stand up the initial aviation Army unmanned aircraft training battalion in Fort Huachuca, Arizona, telling you that there are drones. So the question of whether or not there are or are not should be put

to bed. They should figure out what the hell they are and where they're coming from and who's responsible.

Now, are there 30,000 drones at night in the sky? I would say probably not. A lot of those could be misidentified as planes. But I have seen them. The State Police has seen them. Six-foot drones, I mean, that's not somebody who went to Best Buy and picked up a toy. That's a legitimate aircraft.

BROWN: As you talk to your fellow residents, what are their greatest concerns? Is there concern too, as they don't know what this is, about planes taking off in the area, about the military installations in the area that it's nearby?

BERGEN: Yes.

People don't like uncertainty. And we owe it to them as their government to reduce the amount of uncertainty they have. If this is legitimately not a viable threat, it has to be identified that it's not, because right now the answer of it's not a threat and we just don't know anything about it really isn't good for anybody.

And the public is getting very concerned, and rightfully so. But I got to tell you, before I went to this briefing the other day, this useless briefing, where we got no information, I was really trying to figure out, how do I communicate effectively to my constituents to ease their concerns?

After I left there and saw the incompetence of the actions being taken and the lack of information they have, I legitimately am concerned for the safety of my constituency.

BROWN: All right, Brian Bergen, thank you so much for coming on, sharing your perspective.

BERGEN: Thanks for having me.

BROWN: Still ahead this hour: Donald Trump may have avoided a lot of legal trouble with his 2024 election win, but some people who helped him try to overturn the last election may not. Three were slapped with new felony charges today.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:53:41]

BROWN: Well, right now in Wisconsin, a hearing just wrapped up involving three Donald Trump allies accused of being part of the 2020 fake electors plot.

They are now facing 10 new felony charges. The defendants include attorney Kenneth Chesebro, 2020 campaign official Mike Roman, and 2020 campaign lawyer Jim Troupis.

CNN's Marshall Cohen joins us now. What more can you tell us, Marshall?

MARSHALL COHEN, CNN REPORTER: Hey, Pam. Good morning.

It just wrapped up in Madison, Wisconsin. This is actually the first court hearing in this case. I know it's almost 2025, Pam, but still talking about 2020, because these prosecutions are moving forward. The attorney general in Wisconsin, who is a Democrat, filed these charges against these three Republicans that you just mentioned. Over the summer, they were hit with one conspiracy charge.

A few days ago, prosecutors brought an additional 10 forgery charges all related to that alleged fake electors plot. So they had their initial appearances today. The next hearing is going to be in January. But, look, these are state criminal charges. Donald Trump is going to ascend to the presidency next year, but he can't pardon these guys because these are not federal charges. They're state.

He can't order his Justice Department to shut down the case because the Justice Department doesn't have a role. This is brought by the attorney general of the great state of Wisconsin. So, this is a state case. It's moving forward. They have serious legal jeopardy.

[11:55:12]

These are all alleged felonies. They deny wrongdoing. They are planning to plead not guilty. But, as you mentioned, Pamela, these three men are some of the nearly 50 Donald Trump allies who were involved in that 2020 fake electors plot and are still facing criminal charges, not just in Wisconsin, but in some other key states too, like Michigan, Nevada, and Arizona.

BROWN: All right, Marshall Cohen, thanks so much.

And thank you for joining me. I'm Pamela Brown. You can follow me on Instagram, TikTok and X @PamelaBrownCNN.

Stay with us. "INSIDE POLITICS WITH DANA BASH" starts after a short break.