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CEO Murder Investigation Continues; Nancy Pelosi in Hospital; Duke Accuser Recants Allegations. Aired 11:30a-12p ET

Aired December 13, 2024 - 11:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:30:21]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Admitting to a lie nearly 20 years later. A woman who accused Duke University lacrosse players of raping her is now saying she made up the story.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CRYSTAL MANGUM, ACCUSER: I testified falsely against them by saying that they raped me, when they didn't. And that was wrong. And I betrayed the trust of a lot of other people who believed in me and made up a story that wasn't true because I wanted validation from people and not from God.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All of this stems from now false accusations that Crystal Mangum made in 2006 when she told police that three members of Duke's lacrosse team raped her after she was hired to dance at a team party off-campus.

Well, three men were arrested and charged, David Evans, Collin Finnerty, and Reade Seligmann. But following much controversy over the investigation and national attention, North Carolina's attorney general dropped all of the charges.

Here with us now is Ranjan Jindal. He is the sports editor at Duke's student newspaper.

Wow, I mean, this is really a stunning admission, Ranjan. Nearly two decades later, this case is still gaining both local and national attention. What has the reaction been like on campus to this?

RANJAN JINDAL, SPORTS EDITOR, "THE DUKE CHRONICLE": Yes.

No, it definitely has been. This case is something that, like you mentioned, happened 20 years ago. And in 2006 is when it all came down. And for a lot of people here, especially our age on campus, we were only 1 or 2. We weren't really alive for a good portion of it.

And so I think that it has been kind of a wake-up call and a chance to retell a lot of the story that happened and the fallout from the case. In our story, we talked about, what happened after the case. I think a lot of people -- some people on campus when they hear Duke lacrosse case might think that the boys were charged or might not necessarily understand Crystal Mangum's circumstances.

But there were a lot of unintended consequences of the case. And Duke lacrosse case still looms over campus. It affects social life, Duke- Durham relations and a lot of things. And so our goal in the story was just to kind of tell that story for a lot of people who weren't there and contextualize this apology and this admittal in the greater sense.

BROWN: Yes.

As you point out, I mean, maybe some of our viewers don't remember it or were really young when this happened. I remember I was a student at UNC Chapel Hill at the time. I mean, it was such a big deal, these accusations.

If you can, just bring -- set the stage for us, for our viewers about the accusations and what followed and why this garnered national attention at the time and how the players were treated at the time.

JINDAL: Yes.

So the accusations, like you mentioned, Crystal Mangum accused these players of sexual assault and rape at a team party. And for a good portion of the time afterwards, a lot of people did think that the players were guilty of this. And they were -- they eventually had a game canceled and their season -- the rest of the season was canceled.

The head coach of the time, Mike Pressler, was actually asked to resign and he had to move on from the Duke lacrosse team. He was the head coach at the time. But what a lot of people don't know is that the district attorney at the time, Mike Nifong, who was in charge of the case, was actually disbarred a year later for withholding DNA evidence that actually was the thing that exonerated a lot of these players.

And so at the time, the players a lot of people thought they were guilty. But when the then attorney general, Roy Cooper, who was interestingly the former governor of North Carolina, dropped charges and said they were innocent, the season was still canceled. And a couple of the players transferred, had to transfer out, the ones accused.

And it really still affected the relationship between the lacrosse team and Duke administration and Durham. So there are a lot of fallout effects to the case.

BROWN: Yes, quite the ripple effect. I have been in touch with one of the attorneys who represented one of those players at the time. They don't want to comment right now on this. I understand they have moved on with their lives, but it's still really a stunning admission, as I said. And it's important to talk about.

Ranjan Jindal, thank you so much.

JINDAL: Thank you so much.

BROWN: Well, breaking news just coming into CNN. Former House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has been admitted to a hospital in Luxembourg after she sustained an injury during an official engagement. This is according to a statement from her office.

[11:35:02]

I want to bring in seeing CNN's Lauren Fox.

What more do we know here, Lauren, about this injury?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, we are just getting this statement into us.

And I want to read part of it because it is a little bit vague. It says: "While traveling with a bipartisan congressional delegation in Luxembourg to mark the 80th anniversary of the Battle of the Bulge, Speaker Emerita Nancy Pelosi sustained an injury during an official engagement and was admitted to the hospital for evaluation."

Pelosi is currently receiving excellent treatment from doctors and medical professionals. She continues to work and regrets that she's unable to attend the remainder of the CODEL engagements to honor the courage of our service members during one of the greatest acts of American heroism in our nation's history."

It goes on to say: "Pelosi conveys her thanks and praise to the veterans with gratitude and to the people of Luxembourg for their service in World War II and their roles in bringing peace to Europe. She was personally and officially honored to travel with the distinguished delegation. She says that she looks forward to returning home to the U.S. soon."

Now, this statement came from her spokesperson. But it obviously -- there are a lot of questions. She is someone who is really important to the Democratic Party, also someone who often leads and is part of these bipartisan CODELs when it comes to sort of marking these important anniversaries.

It's unclear how many lawmakers were traveling with her. It's also unclear exactly what happened. As I said, this statement is a little bit vague still. So we're still talking to sources about exactly what took place. Obviously, everyone wishing her a fast and speedy recovery.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Yes.

L. FOX: Pam.

BROWN: We absolutely hope that she has a fast recovery.

Lauren Fox, thank you so much.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [11:41:02]

BROWN: Well, this morning, we have a number of new developments in the murder of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

Sources tell CNN that authorities in New York have executed as many as three search warrants against the suspected killer, Luigi Mangione. One source says the backpack recovered in Central Park and a burner phone found near the killing are among the focus.

ABC News is reporting that the Manhattan district attorney's office is also presenting evidence to a grand jury. And as investigators search for a possible motive, there is a new twist. A UnitedHealthcare spokesperson says Mangione was not a member.

Joining us now is James Alan Fox, a professor of criminology at Northeastern University. He also wrote "Extreme Killing: Understanding Serial and Mass Murder."

Thank you so much for joining us.

So, are you surprised that Mangione was not a -- not part of UnitedHealthcare in any way? Does that affect motive?

JAMES ALAN FOX, CRIMINOLOGIST, NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY: No, I'm not surprised.

Actually, originally, the belief was that there was some direct connection with the company in terms of a denial. But, clearly, given his background of wealth and so forth, that it more seemed like that he could afford any health care he needed, but it was against the industry.

And given the size and the prominence of this particular insurance company, it was an attack against the industry. And this particular victim, the symbolic takedown, as it was described, is also an attack at the industry. So it's not a surprise that he was not insured by that particular company.

It was more about the industry itself, which he thought was corrupt.

BROWN: So he has an Ivy League -- right. As you point out, he has an Ivy League education. He has the support of a wealthy family, presumably.

What about his background stands out to you, especially over this last year before the killing?

J. FOX: Well, the fact he went sort of quiet, underground. His family didn't hear from him.

Over this period of time, it was likely he was thinking about what his next move would be and planning out this attack. So, it was quite deliberate, clearly. He had plans about how to get there, when to be there, when the conference would be held and where, and then, of course, his getaway. So there's a certain degree of planning involved with what he was

engaged in during the six months, when no one heard from him.

BROWN: A Florida woman is now charged with threatening her insurance company. She allegedly ended her phone call by saying "delay, deny, depose," the same words found on bullet casings at that murder scene.

It just seems like this crime has tapped into something really ugly, really ugly about Americans' anger with insurance companies. And it's just like I'm speechless. What do you see there?

J. FOX: It's not just concern about the insurance industry and feeling that they're unfair. It's also the income inequality in this country, that we have CEOs who make a tremendous amount of money and large bonuses.

At the same time, they are not treating the general public perhaps fairly. So there's lots of people getting rich at the top and the ordinary American is being -- is suffering at their expense. So that's -- it's partly insurance...

BROWN: But you can't just, like, murder some not because you want social change on that. And that's reprehensible.

J. FOX: Well, it is reprehensible, clearly, as reprehensible that so many people see him as a hero. Of course, that's not a new thing.

There were folks back in the '60s who thought Charles Manson was a hero. There are people who thought that the Theodore Kaczynski was a hero. These were individuals who went after the rich and the powerful. And there are many people in America who identify with that and applaud that.

[11:45:00]

It's shameful, but it's true.

BROWN: And I want to get to more on that, this shocking level of online support for Mangione.

One crowdfunding Web site we found has raised $76,000 for his legal defense. And Mangione's defense attorney says he's also beginning offers to help pay for his legal defense. NewsNation even captured a fellow inmate shouting support at the prison where he's being held. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Luigi's conditions suck! Free Luigi!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Are you concerned this case could inspire copycats to target other corporate executives or just other people who want attention like he's getting? J. FOX: Well, certainly, there's always the potential for copycats,

but those potential copycats should realize that such an act can end them up with the same kind of predicament as Mangione.

So do they want to be famous, perhaps? Do they want to be a hero, perhaps? But it's certainly not a wise move. And, hopefully, we will not see it.

What we are seeing, of course, are fliers around New York City identifying as wanted various CEOs of health care companies. That's awful, of course, but it's certainly at a lower level than murder.

BROWN: Yes, especially given the context.

J. FOX: Let me also say that....

BROWN: Go ahead.

J. FOX: ... we often have revolutionaries seen as heroes. And the others who identify and admire what they did want them freed.

I remember back in the revolutionary days of the '60s and "Free Bobby Seale." So that's not new, that people see the criminal as a hero, someone who did the -- did something they see as justified, and want them freed. It's not justifiable. It's murder. We need to keep that in mind.

BROWN: All right, James Alan...

J. FOX: This person did not deserve being a token of anger or a target of anger.

BROWN: Important context.

James Alan Fox, thank you so much.

J. FOX: Sure.

BROWN: I'm going to turn to another important aspect of the Mangione case, the weapon.

With us now is gun safety expert Steve Wolf.

Steve, police say Mangione was carrying a 3-D-printed handgun when he was arrested. And police say that there was a ballistics match to bullet casings at the scene. These weapons don't require the background checks of conventional handgun sales. How big of a concern is this?

STEVE WOLF, GUN SAFETY EXPERT: It's really not a huge concern.

There's a very relatively low prevalence of the use of so-called ghost guns or homemade firearms. It is legal to make your own firearm. Hobbyists do it. It's a Second Amendment-protected right. There are already laws that cover any misuse of a firearm. There's laws that cover the possession of firearms by unauthorized persons such as felons.

And there's laws against murder. So I think adding more laws is certainly not any way to gain any control over the situation.

BROWN: Well, how is easy is it for someone to get a 3-D gun and commit a crime? How long does it take to print it?

(CROSSTALK)

WOLF: It's printed in a in a matter of hours. But let me just point out to you that when we say 3-D-printed gun, we really just are talking about the frame here.

There's still all these metal parts that have to be purchased, the slide, the barrel, and the components inside. So really it's like saying you 3-D printed the handle. Of course, there are many, many unserialized weapons. This could be considered a ghost hammer, because it has no serial number. It can be used as a bludgeoning tool, right?

This could be considered a ghost knife because there's no serial number. You can still kill somebody with it. So the presence of serial numbers doesn't make it easier or harder to use something as a deadly weapon.

BROWN: Right. But for authorities trying to track, it could potentially make it harder for investigation purposes, right?

WOLF: So tracking is something that happens after a crime.

And, ideally, law enforcement uses would be towards prevention of crimes. Finding out who did it doesn't bring the victim back. Getting the person behind jail doesn't compensate the families for the loss. So I think the focus really should be on crime prevention, not traceability.

And you say that this was not traceable. Well, they traced the bullet. They traced the gun. They put those things together, despite the fact that this was a -- quote, unquote -- "ghost gun."

BROWN: Right.

WOLF: So it didn't have any bearing on the ability of authorities to tie that gun to the crime and use that towards getting a conviction.

BROWN: All right, Steve Wolf, thank you very much.

WOLF: Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Still to come: After months of fearing the worst, an American family can breathe a sigh of relief now that their missing son has been found alive in Syria.

[11:50:04]

What his parents just told CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:55:00]

BROWN: Well, finally, this hour, we are hearing from the mother and stepdad of the missing American found alive in Syria; 29-year-old Travis Timmerman of Missouri says he was in prison seven months after illegally crossing into Syria as part of his religious pilgrimage.

He was freed this week after rebels toppled Syria's brutal Assad regime. Here's what his mother and stepdad told my colleague Jim Acosta last hour.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STACEY GARDINER, MOTHER OF TRAVIS TIMMERMAN: I was going crazy. I was happy, but I was just -- I...

RICHARD GARDINER, STEPDAD OF TRAVIS TIMMERMAN: Yes, it was just nuts, because, when I saw him on the news, I just started -- I started bawling.

I told her, I'm like, it's really him. He's really alive. After seven months, you start thinking the worst.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, Travis' mom says they hope he will be home by Christmas and will tell him his travel adventures are over, at least for now.

Thank you for joining me. I'm Pamela Brown. Follow me on Instagram, TikTok, X @PamelaBrownCNN.

Stay with us. "INSIDE POLITICS" with Manu Raju starts after a short break.