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Russian General Killed In Moscow Blast; Hamas: Ceasefire Deal For Gaza Is Possible Following "Positive" Discussions In Qatar; Police Seek Motive In Deadly Madison, Wisconsin School Shooting; Electors Meet To Confirm 2024 Presidential Election Results; Luigi Mangione Indicted In Murder Of UnitedHealthcare CEO. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired December 17, 2024 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:35]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.
And let's get right to the news.
We begin with a major assassination in Moscow. Russian General Igor Kirillov is dead. A source tells CNN that Ukrainian security forces were behind the detonation of an explosive device attached to a scooter in Russia's capital, which killed the general and his assistant.
Kirillov headed Russia's nuclear, biological and chemical defense forces and was wanted in Ukraine for war crimes, including the use of chemical weapons there. He is the highest ranking Russian military leader killed not in combat in what is coming up on a nearly three year war since Russia's full scale invasion.
CNN senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen is in Moscow and filed this report showing us moments just before the blast and the aftermath.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): One of Russia's top generals and an aide just seconds before the fatal blast. We're not showing the moment of the explosion in this video obtained by CNN.
Russian investigators say the bomb, with about 300 grams of TNT was hidden in an electric scooter parked just outside the entrance of that building. As the general and an aide walked out, it blew up, killing them both.
Russian investigators say the device was detonated remotely. The blast so powerful it shattered windows several floors up in buildings across the street at first, we thought that cement might have been unloaded or something similar. This resident says, but the blast was so loud it did not seem like construction work. It was very scary.
Lieutenant General Igor Kirillov was the head of Russia's nuclear, chemical and biological defense forces, often accusing Kyiv of planning to use chemicals on the battlefield. The Ukrainians, for their part, accused Kirillov of overseeing the use of chemical substances against their forces and have claimed responsibility for assassinating him, calling the general, quote, an absolutely legitimate target and saying such an inglorious end awaits all those who kill Ukrainians.
The general is not the first, but the highest ranking Russian military official the Ukrainians claim to have assassinated. Moscow furious, launching both a terrorism and a criminal investigation.
Investigative actions and operational search activities are being carried out, aimed at establishing all the circumstances of the crime committed, the spokesperson said. Asymmetric warfare like this brazen drone attack inside Russia two days ago is how the Ukrainian forces are trying to level the battlefield as Vladimir Putin's army has been making significant gains on nearly all front lines.
But the lieutenant general's assassination comes just hours after Putin met with his top military brass, ripping into the Biden administration for its support of Ukraine.
In an effort to weaken our country and impose a strategic defeat on us, the United States continues to pump the virtually illegitimate ruling regime in Kyiv, full of weapons and money, sends mercenaries and military advisers and thereby encourages further escalation of the conflict, Putin said.
And Russian politicians have vowed revenge for the generals killing, while acknowledging his death is a major loss.
Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Joining us now, retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton, a CNN military analyst.
Good to have you.
Ukrainian forces describe Kirillov as, quote, a war criminal and an absolutely legitimate target. It says that by order of Kirillov, more than 4,800 cases of enemy use of chemical weapons have been recorded since the beginning of Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine. Is he, in your view, a legitimate military target?
COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes he is, Jim and General Kirillov was certainly the architect of a lot of the chemical attacks that the Ukrainians have suffered. We don't hear very much about them, but the 4,800 number that the Ukrainians use may even be an undercount, given the types of chemicals that the Russians use. Some of them include riot agents, which are used by police forces to basically control riots.
[15:05:04] But they are not allowed to be used in warfare. And that's the kind of thing among other types of chemical weapons, that General Kirillov is accused of has been accused of using. So, yes, he is a legitimate target and that is something that the Ukrainians have, in essence, every right to go after.
SCIUTTO: What other specific chemical weapons do Ukrainian forces say Russia has used there? I've heard of the use, for instance, of chlorine weapons. Have we heard of more serious -- also phosphorus, which can be quite deadly and cause severe burns. But have we heard of other elements, for instance, evidence of nerve agents, for instance?
LEIGHTON: Yes. So far there is, to my knowledge, no known nerve agent that has been used like VX or something like that. However, I choke agents, choking agents such as chloropicrin have been used. It's a substance that goes back to World War One, and it is something that, you know, is is clearly designed to not only make things very uncomfortable for Ukrainian forces, but potentially cause them lethal damage from a medical standpoint.
SCIUTTO: Yeah. And we should note that Russia has carried out assassinations on European soil. For instance, you think of the radioactive polonium used to kill Alexander Litvinenko in 2006. Novichok nerve agent used to attempt to kill two Russian dissidents in Ukraine -- the UK as well. I want to ask what message Ukraine is sending with this killing because I, as Fred noted in his report, you had a drone attack inside Russia in the last several days. You've had this ground incursion by Ukrainian forces in the Kursk region of Russia, as well as other missiles striking oil facilities and military targets inside Russia.
I mean, that collection of targets inside Russia, I imagine, is part of a broader plan to inflict pain on the Russian homeland.
LEIGHTON: Yeah, it certainly is, and somewhat harkens back to Churchill's dictum, to the special operations executive in world war two to set Europe ablaze. So what the Ukrainians are doing on a much smaller scale is going after key Russian installations. They, you know, have a limited capability to go after Russian installations that are within 200 or so miles of the Ukrainian border.
But what they also have is an asymmetric capability using their intelligence service, the SVU in particular, to go after them. Plus, they have their indigenous drone production, such as we saw the footage of Grozny that Fred was using in his report and that really shows an ability by of the Ukrainians to strike at some very large distances.
So in essence, what the Ukrainian message is, you may be able to run, but you cannot hide, and we will find certain things about you. We will we will, in essence, put you off balance as much as we possibly can. Ukraine, of course, as we know, has a dearth of population, dearth of the manpower when it comes to their military compared to the Russians.
But they have some technical means that they use to great effect, and that allows them to pursue an asymmetric warfare campaign. And that's what we're seeing.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask now about concerns about Russian retaliation, because Russia -- Kirillov, in fact, specifically has brought up what were unfounded claims, according to U.S. intelligence and others, that, for instance, Ukraine was planning a dirty bomb attack, or that it was planning to use radioactive substances from Chernobyl or even sabotage Zaporizhzhia, a nuclear plant there.
And the reason I raise those is because when U.S. intelligence calculated that Russia was quite close to using a tactical nuclear weapon in Ukraine in late 2022, there was a fog of these kind of charges by Russia, which the U.S. perception was Russia was putting that out there as a cover story. If Russia were to use a nuclear weapon to say, hey, it was actually the Ukrainians who did this, or they did it first or something along those lines.
So I wonder how concerned should we be about how Russia responds to this kind of attack?
LEIGHTON: I think we should be very concerned. You know, the -- the fact that it is a legitimate target doesn't mean the Russians aren't going to respond. And in this case, what I think we might see is some kind of an attack that uses, you know, possibly even a biological agent or a chemical agent, or it could be another -- it could be a tit for tat assassination attempt on a senior Ukrainian official, which the Russians have been known to do as well, even before February of 2022.
[15:10:04]
So these are the kinds of things that we can expect. The Russians often talk about what the Ukrainians are doing, even though it's actually the Russians that are conducting those kinds of operations or are thinking about conducting them. So the Russians, you know, may very well be in a position where they are trying to determine whether or not to use a tactical nuke again, or a chemical or biological weapon as well.
SCIUTTO: Yeah. Any scenario, concerning. Colonel Leighton, thanks so much.
LEIGHTON: You bet, Jim.
SCIUTTO: All right, turning now to the Middle East. You are looking at video of the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, and senior Israeli security officials atop Mount Hermon in Syria. That is an area Netanyahu says Israel will temporarily occupy for security reasons. To be clear, that summit is inside Syrian sovereign territory, inside a buffer zone that was separating Israeli and Syrian forces for some five decades, up until the IDF took control of Mount Hermon following the fall of Bashar al-Assad.
Netanyahu's visit could up tensions in the region, even as talks in another conflict involving Israel, the ongoing war in Gaza seem perhaps to be advancing. That is the sense, after a statement from Hamas today suggesting the terrorist group could be inching closer to accepting a ceasefire and hostage deal with Israel.
CNN's Jeremy Diamond has more on exactly where those talks stand -- Jeremy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Well, Hamas now becomes the latest party to these negotiations to express some optimism about the prospects of reaching a ceasefire and hostage release deal. We have heard optimistic comments over the course of the last week from U.S., Israeli, Qatari and Egyptian officials. And now Hamas is joining the fray.
But as with the others who are expressing optimism, Hamas is also adding a note of caution to their comments. In their statement, they are making clear that, quote, Hamas affirms that in light of the serious and positive discussions taking place in Doha today under the auspices of our Qatari and Egyptian brothers, reaching an agreement for a ceasefire and prisoner exchange is possible if the occupation stops imposing new conditions and that if is indeed that note of caution that they are raising, suggesting that Israeli negotiators are making additional demands as this negotiating process moves forward.
A second Hamas source said that they view the current state of negotiations as, quote, positive and optimistic. And it is important to note that amid this optimism, we are also seeing a flurry of diplomatic activity in the region. The U.S. national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, just last week traveled to Israel, Egypt and Qatar to try and advance a deal. He said he hopes that he can put the conditions in place to reach a deal within the next month, and that is indeed the target here appears to be to try and reach a deal before President Biden leaves office on January 20th and President-elect Trump will then be inaugurated.
And we know, of course, that the Biden administration has also been closely coordinating with the Trump administration over this deal as incoming Trump advisers have also been traveling to the region and coordinating closely with the officials who they will soon be replacing. It is important to caution, though, that as we are seeing this momentum, as we are seeing this optimistic language, the reason why we are also hearing notes of caution from all of the parties involved is because we have been this close in the past, we have been very close to a deal and ultimately talks have collapsed and that possibility still very much looms.
But Israeli and American officials who I've spoken to have pointed to a new set of conditions in the region in terms of Hamas being increasingly isolated, Israel having accomplished a slew of military achievements in Gaza, including the killing of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar that might make them more willing to reach a deal now. All of this pointing us in the direction of a potential ceasefire and hostage deal. But again, the deal isn't reached until it's done.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DIAMOND (voice-over): And we should note, there have been a lot of false starts in recent weeks and months. Jeremy Diamond, thanks so much.
Well, this just in to CNN, Luis Mangione -- Luigi rather -- has been indicted now in New York for the murder of the UnitedHealthcare CEO, Brian Thompson. We're going to have the new details next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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SCIUTTO: Police in Madison, Wisconsin, have just wrapped up a news conference updating on yesterday's deadly school shooting, yet one more. Police say a 15-year-old female shooter killed one student, one teacher and then herself. Six more people remain injured, two in critical condition with life threatening injuries. During his address, the chief of police said determining a motive is now the department's top priority.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF SHON BARNES, MADISON, WISCONSIN POLICE: Identifying a motive is our top priority, but at this time, it appears that the motive was a combination of factors. Again, we cannot share that information at this time because we do not want to jeopardize the investigation, and those who are currently cooperating with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: For more, let's speak to CNN senior national security analyst Juliette Kayyem, former assistant secretary of homeland security.
Juliette, always good to have you.
JULIETTE KAYYEM, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Thank you for having me.
SCIUTTO: So in a wave of school shootings, 83 this year alone in this country, unusual in this shooting that was a female shooter. According to analysis by "The Washington Post", only nine female students have committed a school shooting going back to 1999. That's 4 percent of school shooters.
How rare is that? And why? Right? I mean, why -- why is that so unusual? I mean, it goes to a profile, I suppose.
KAYYEM: Yes. And admittedly, it's going to go to gender stereotypes, but the data is pretty clear that male killers, in particular male mass shooters or school shooters play out a sort of social aggression towards no one or nothing in particular except for the entity the school, writ large. And this is -- this is true of -- of a lot of mass shootings. People return back to schools, they return back to churches or wherever else.
In the data about female killers, it is -- it tends to be more intimate, if that's the right word. In other words, a particular person or that person and people around them who -- who they feel have done them a harm or may have in fact done them a harm. So when the police chief says they want to look to potential motives, I hear in that that there is -- there's -- whether its a letter or a manifesto or whatever, you know, maybe a narrative about what it was and why she chose the school.
[15:20:15]
And in particular, if you put shootings aside, female killers tend not to use guns. And so, there's a whole bunch of this that's not fitting a profile. So we will have to wait until -- in particular, until they get everything out of the parents that that clearly the parents are offering.
SCIUTTO: There's often a concern among police and authorities, law enforcement about copycat shootings. And that's been part of the phenomenon, right, of the school shooting is that it becomes a way for, sadly, murder suicide, right, a way to commit suicide. But I wonder, will authorities be concerned about copycats specifically among other young women? Will they begin to look there?
KAYYEM: Yes, yes. I mean, well, look, I mean, this is where other data comes into play. In particular what we've seen so far on eating disorders and imaging that that girls get on social media. This is playing out on TikTok. And the images I've seen that suggest that it or her are coming from a TikTok and other social media where she's at a firing range.
And so that just gets amplified. You know, look, it takes a lot for someone to do something like this. What I'm very interested in, and these are just tea leaves that were hearing from the investigation.
So, no conclusions here is there is talk of this friend, right, this person in her life that either knew about a letter or may have known about the motivations and, and any investigator is going to ask who that friend is. Was it a physical friend or a -- or a -- or an Internet or social media friend? Their age, a man, woman or otherwise? And whether that would lead to some -- to some explanation for a person who didn't, who had. Not really, as far as we know, not run into law enforcement very often.
We may learn a lot more otherwise. But I -- one does worry about that, especially with -- with access to guns to teenagers in this country.
SCIUTTO: Okay. So let's talk about gun access, because police have said that the parents of the shooter are cooperating here. We have seen cases in recent years where parents of teenage school shooters were held criminally liable for not preventing access to firearms. We should note that in Wisconsin, state law does have exceptions allowed that do allow a minor to possess a firearm for target practice under adult supervision, though the age is 18.
What kinds of questions will police -- we don't know the circumstances yet of how this shooter got this nine millimeter pistol, but what questions will the law enforcement be looking at now?
KAYYEM: I mean, the number one is we've -- we haven't even heard confirmation that it was, in fact, the parents, the father or mother's gun, or was it a different family member. So first, it's just going to be the chain of custody who bought it, from whom. And then how did it end up in her hands on that day?
There's going to be questions about negligence, and whether they should -- the parents should have known of her dangerous behavior and kept her from guns, a sort of, you know, sort of like a sort of personal yellow flag rule, which we may be demanding of parents.
I want to make clear this is relatively new law in the United States, these causes of action against parents. I'm not necessarily opposed to them. It's not about good parenting or bad parenting and all the cases that have come to date, which is only two that have gone to conviction, the parents behavior was so grossly negligent or in the second case was honestly sort of aiding and abetting it, right?
The mother texts her and goes, I hope its not you him. I hope its not you that the standard is still very high. If these parents are cooperating, there's no history of sort of negligence on their part. I think it's unlikely that they would try to prosecute them.
We'll learn more and that their cooperation may help police understand in particular, was there a trigger? Why? Why this day? And do people know others in her social circle know what was going to be that day?
SCIUTTO: And listen, of course we should acknowledge these are parents who also just lost a child. There are several parents who lost a child. Well, two, two parents, sets of parents and of course the family of the teacher.
Juliette Kayyem, thanks so much.
KAYYEM: Yeah, thank you.
SCIUTTO: Well, we do have breaking news in another murder case, the case against Luigi Mangione. CNN has learned that a New York grand jury has now indicted the 26-year-old for first-degree murder in the killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. That is according to multiple law enforcement sources.
Police are expected to announce that indictment at a press conference this hour. CNN's Kara Scannell standing by in New York for more.
Kara, clearly, prosecutors and now the grand jury believe they have evidence pointing in Mangione direction for this -- for this killing.
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Jim. And we just got a copy of the indictment just a few moments ago.
There's 11 counts at Luigi Mangione is being charged with. Three of them are murder counts, one of them being murder in the first degree. That is an unusual count in New York, because it's a premeditated murder, but involving either certain specific categories of people, like police officers or first responders.
But there is an element there that can establish murder in the first degree, and that is of terrorism. And of course, in this case, we have seen the evidence that the prosecutors have put forward so far in which and the investigation has found in which, you know, there was this, quote/unquote, manifesto where Mangione had written about concerns in the health care industry, calling them predators.
He's also, you know, allegedly wrote on the bullet casings, common words used in the insurance industry like deny. So that appears to be what this murder in the first degree terrorism charge is focused on. Now, there are additional other charges in this indictment involving firearms and other things related to what we know about this investigation.
According to prosecutors, they say Mangione traveled to New York, had come to the city, went to a hostel, then traveled to the Hilton Hotel where the UnitedHealthcare conference was taking place and waited for Brian Thompson, the CEO, to walk down the street from his hotel into the hotel where the conference was being held. And that is when authorities say he opened gunfire and shot Brian Thompson and murdered him.
So that is -- those charges are just being announced. The press conference is expected to get underway in about five minutes from now. Now, I also learned from Mangione attorney that he is no longer going to fight his extradition. Remember, he's held in Pennsylvania where he was arrested and charged locally, but he is no longer going to fight extradition to New York. There is a hearing scheduled in Pennsylvania on Thursday, and then from there, the judge can rule to send him to New York so he could be in New York as soon as later this week to face this indictment and be arraigned on these charges, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Kara Scannell, thanks so much for those updates. And we will bring you that press conference with the Manhattan D.A. when it begins.
Also coming up, President-elect Donald Trump has nearly enough Electoral College votes now to formalize his White House victory -- votes being tallied in statehouses across the country.
We will be right back with more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:30:57]
SCIUTTO: Across the country now, slates of electors are formalizing Donald Trump's victory thanks to the way America's political system is designed. All is not said and done on Election Day.
Instead, 538 electors actually select the president in mid-December as part of his attempt to undermine and overturn the 2020 election. You'll remember Donald Trump and his allies tried to install fake electors, 13 of those fake electors, some of whom are facing criminal charges, are now casting real ballots in this year's election.
CNN's Jeff Zeleny joins me now. Jeff, as I understand it, Texas is about to put Trump over the top.
And, of course, this process, undisturbed by fake electors and false charges of a stolen election, will take place today, giving Donald Trump a victory, something that, of course, Trump attempted to take away from Joe Biden. He certainly didn't give him a day like today uninterrupted.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: He certainly did not. And, Jim, voting has been underway in state capitals across the country for about six hours or so. And as you said during this hour, perhaps the next several moments, the picture you're looking at is in Texas, the 40 electoral votes in the state of Texas will put Donald Trump over the top officially for that 270. And in the coming hours, there's a few more states add in.
Of course, that will go on to be one more official step for his victory. And of course, all of these votes will be sent to Washington. This is a very old school ceremonial way of doing it.
And, of course, the Congress will finalize this in early January with Vice President Harris presiding over the Senate, as you said, entirely different than four years ago, because she is accepting her defeat, something Donald Trump did not do four years ago. You can see those numbers right there. Now, Trump almost at a 270. The votes from the state of Texas will put him over the top.
SCIUTTO: Can you remind us how the Electoral College process was changed following the events of 2020?
ZELENY: It was changed. There was a bill in Congress that essentially made some procedural changes. But also the biggest change was the vice president, who presides over, as the president of the Senate, does not have the authority to change the estate, election certificates.
So you'll remember that Donald Trump was urging Mike Pence, pressuring Mike Pence to change the results. Basically, he said at the time he couldn't do it. Now there is a law that would essentially prevent the vice president from doing that.
But, of course, Vice President Harris is making no moves about that. That's why today is all in ceremony. But this is how it should be. This is the peaceful transfer of power.
You are seeing those votes right there. The electors in the state of Texas, 40 of them going through the process here. That's how it always has worked until four years ago. And of course, that was the -- this was the day that led up to January 6th in 2021.
SCIUTTO: And the violence we witnessed there. Jeff Zeleny, thanks so much.
ZELENY: Sure.
SCIUTTO: Well, RFK Jr. is the latest of Trump's cabinet picks to parade around Capitol Hill, attempting to shore up support for his confirmation by the Senate. He is a prominent vaccine skeptic who is now up for the nation's top health post. He's working to reassure senators that he will not ban vaccines, despite previously and repeatedly expressing doubts about their impact, their efficacy and straight up pushing conspiracy theories.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS SECRETARY NOMINEE: Oh, I'm not going to -- I'm not going to take away anybody's vaccines. And I've never been anti-vaccine.
There's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective.
I do believe that autism does come from vaccines.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: There's a lot to unpack there because some of those are just straight up false statements. Here we are.
Dr. Peter Hotez, pediatrician, co-director of Texas Children's Hospital Center for Vaccine Development. He joins us now.
I want to start, if I can, on one of the vaccines that he has attacked repeatedly, that is the MMR vaccine.
[15:35:08]
And he has repeated what is debunked research. It was known as the Wakefield report, and there have been multiple studies that discredited the charge in that report, that there was a tie between autism and MMR. And as I understand it, it was discredited by dozens of studies investigating the epidemiology of autism.
So those are the facts. How does re-resurrecting that fear at this level, the top health official in this country, how does that do damage?
DR. PETER HOTEZ, PROFESSOR & DEAN OF TROPICAL MEDICINE, BAYLOR COLLEGE OF MEDICINE: Well, first of all, Jim, remember it's not just MMR, even though that's been thoroughly discredited. We have massive epidemiologic studies showing that kids who get MMR vaccine are no more likely to acquire autism than kids who don't. And that should have been the end of it.
Also, the fact that there's no --
SCIUTTO: Dr. Hotel, please -- please hold thought.
HOTEZ: -- mechanism because we know autism begins in early, goes through early fetal brain development.
SCIUTTO: We're going to come back to it, and I apologize. I hate to interrupt you on this very important topic.
We will go to breaking news. Now, the Manhattan district attorney speaking now about the case against Luigi Mangione. ALVIN BRAGG, JR., MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Brian Thompson, who,
as you know, was the CEO of UnitedHealthcare. This case was made possible by the collaborative efforts of the phenomenal public servants you see before you today, and so many others who are not here.
I'm honored to lead the Manhattan district attorneys office and privileged to serve alongside Assistant District Attorneys Joel Seidman (ph), Kristen Bailey (ph), and Zachary Kaplan (ph), who were working from the outset, hand in hand with the greatest police department, in the world. The chief of our trial division, Lisa Del Pizzo (ph), and the deputy chief, Chris Prevost (ph), provided sage oversight and direction.
And I want to acknowledge our high technology analysts and analysis unit. There was a lot to be processed here. Steve Moran in particular, who heads that, and Marko Popovich (ph).
We are privileged here at the D.A.'s office to work every day with the phenomenal public servants at the NYPD. It has been a distinct pleasure to work besides Commissioner Tish and exemplary partner and Chief of Detectives Joseph Kenny. Almost every day were in touch. Uh, and his leadership is second to none.
And then deputy commissioner Rebecca Weiner (ph), who, as I tell her, there are a lot of challenging things happening in the world. And I sleep better at night knowing that she is the deputy commissioner in charge of terrorism. The detectives on this out doing the courageous frontline work, Detective Oscar Diaz, Detective Curcio (ph), exemplary, exemplary, the finest. It wasn't just those of us here in New York.
I want to acknowledge the great work of our partners in Altoona, the Altoona police department, the Blair county district attorneys office, the governors of New York and Pennsylvania, the FBI, and, of course, the brave members of the public who answered the call when our great commissioner put out the call for their assistance. This was a frightening, well-planned, targeted murder that was intended to cause shock and attention and intimidation. It occurred in one of the most bustling parts of our city, threatening the safety of local residents and tourists alike. Commuters and business people just starting out on their day.
Let me say a bit more about the charges. They include one count of murder in the first degree as a killing in furtherance of terrorism. Two counts of murder in the second degree. One charge in the killing was done as an act of terrorism, and the second, pertaining to the fact that the killing was intentional.
The maximum penalty possible for murder in the first degree and murder in the second degree as an act of terrorism is life without parole. The maximum penalty for murder in the second degree is 25 years to life.
There are additional counts as well, a number of criminal possession of weapons charges. Two counts in the second degree, four counts in the third degree, one count in the fourth degree and a count of criminal possession of a forged instrument in the second degree.
Let me tell you a bit about the facts. On November 24th, we allege that the defendant arrived in New York City to murder Brian Thompson after the defendant arrived in New York City on a bus at port authority. He checked into the hostel on the upper west side using the name Marc Rosario (ph), with a fake New Jersey ID.
On the morning of December 4th, the defendant left the hospital -- hostel, excuse me, just after 5:30 a.m. and traveled to midtown. For nearly an hour, we allege, the defendant waited in the area near the Hilton Hotel waiting for Mr. Thompson to appear from 6:38 a.m. to 6:44 a.m., the defendant stood across from the entrance of the hotel on West 54th Street. When he saw Mr. Thompson, he crossed the street and approached him from behind.
We allege he then took out a nine millimeter 3D printed ghost gun equipped with a 3D printed suppressor, and shot him once in the back and once in the leg. The defendant then fled Northeast on 54th street and took an e-bike uptown, before getting into a taxi that took him to West 178th street and Amsterdam avenue.
On December 9th, the defendant was spotted at a McDonald's in Altoona, Pennsylvania. The local police were notified. He was arrested and he was found with a nine millimeter handgun, a suppressor, two ammunition magazines, and the same fake New Jersey ID he used at the hostel.
I want to say a word about ghost guns. These weapons are increasingly proliferating throughout New York City and the entire country involving technology will only make this problem worse. Last year, over 80 ghost guns and ghost gun parts were recovered in Manhattan alone. The NYPD and the Manhattan D.A.'s office have been leading in the interdiction of these ghost guns.
And one thing I want to make clear, they are unserialized. They can be printed out. But is this case tragically made clear, they are just as deadly as traditional firearms. This will remain a priority for us here in Manhattan.
Finally, I know there have been questions about the extradition process. The latest that I can offer you is that the defendant is currently scheduled to appear in court in Pennsylvania on Thursday morning, first for a preliminary hearing on his Pennsylvania charges, immediately to follow. That will be an extradition hearing.
We have indications that the defendant may waive that hearing, in which case he brought to New York forthwith. In any event, we have been preparing on parallel paths and before the hearing will send to the governor of the state of New York the paperwork that would be necessary if he does not waive during that that hearing.
I now want to -- want to turn over to our great commissioner, and when I do so, I wanted to thank her for her partnership, not only on this matter, but on all we do every day together. Thank you.
JESSICA TISCH, NYPD COMMISSIONER: Good afternoon, everyone. The unsealing of today's indictment brings us one step closer to
securing justice for Brian Thompson and his family, and affirming the primacy of the rule of law in the city of New York. NYPD detectives worked tirelessly to piece this case together. And along the way, the Manhattan D.A.'s office made sure we had every legal tool available to us, whether quickly providing subpoenas to assist with our evidence collection or traveling with us to Altoona, Pennsylvania last week, after the apprehension.
Our partnership made this a successful investigation. So I'd like to thank District Attorney Bragg and his team for their work in bringing this case forward. Part of that work included the relentless collection and analysis of surveillance video by our detectives, which ultimately produced a clear image of our suspect. That image was shared far and wide through the media, and thanks to an observant McDonald's customer and the employee who alerted the police, Mr. Mangione was quickly brought into custody.
This outcome is why we always emphasize the critical role of the public in our public safety mission. So again, I want to thank everyone who saw something, said something, and did something. That is why we have a suspect in custody today. As D.A. Bragg said, Luigi Mangione is now formally charged and indicted for murder.
And let me be perfectly clear. In the nearly two weeks since Mr. Thompson's killing, we have seen a shocking and appalling celebration of cold blooded murder. Social media has erupted with praise for this cowardly attack. People ghoulishly plastered posters threatening the CEOs, other CEOs with an X over Mr. Thompsons picture as though he was some sort of a sick trophy.
[15:45:07]
And yesterday, sorry -- yesterday, "The New York Post" reported that some extreme activists were circulating a deck of cards with other most wanted CEOs to be targeted for assassination. These are the threats of a lawless, violent mob who would trade in their own vigilantism for the rule of law that protects us all.
Let me say this plainly, there is no heroism in what Mangione did. This was a senseless act of violence. It was a cold and calculated crime that stole a life and put New Yorkers at risk. We don't celebrate murders and we don't lionize the killing of anyone.
And any attempt to rationalize this is a vile, reckless, and offensive to our deeply held principles of justice. Now, as we await the extradition process in Pennsylvania to complete, we continue our public safety work here at home. That includes our focus on the growing threat of ghost guns, one of which was used in this attack.
The NYPD remains committed to tracking down and removing these untraceable weapons from our streets, and we will do that work hand in hand with District Attorney Bragg here in Manhattan and in every other borough, to ensure that those who possess, distribute, and use these weapons are held fully accountable. Finally, I want to again thank every member of the NYPD uniform and
civilian working on this case, led, of course, by our great Chief Kenny. Whether in midtown, north squad, homicide, crime scene unit, intelligence bureau, and everywhere else -- all of you contributed to today's indictment and you brought the Thompson family one step closer to justice in this case.
Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're going to take questions.
Jane?
REPORTER: Please elaborate on the terrorism security (INAUDIBLE). What elements do you expect to be --
BRAGG: Sure. So, you know, in its most basic terms, this was a killing that was intended to evoke terror. And we've seen that reaction. You know, the statutory elements we can go into, but at its most basic terms, that's what this is. This was not an ordinary killing. Not to suggest that any killing is ordinary, but this was extraordinary.
And, the New York state legislature has, you know, set out, you know, both the paths that we talk about, both the murder one and murder two. And this we allege is certainly with squarely within those statutes which talk about -- intending to do exactly what we saw happen here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Anthony?
REPORTER: Maybe Chief Kenny could get into this, but I'm wondering sort of the timeline between December 6th, when the FBI was notified by the San Francisco Police about this missing person that was called in from Luigi's mother, and the time that they contacted you about this.
Were you aware of this when he was arrested? And was this something that was still being processed at the time?
JOHN KENNY, CHIEF OF DETECTIVES, NYPD: So the original missing report took place back in November 18th in San Francisco. The sergeant that was involved in that case reached out to the San Francisco field office and said, hey, basically, I'm working on a missing case. I saw a photograph that was distributed by the NYPD that bears a resemblance. That tip was forwarded to us close to 45 hours after the incident took place. It -- it showed up to a TFO, which is a task force officer. We have NYPD officers embedded with the FBI. They received that tip.
It was one of four tips that they had received that day, and they were vetting it. Part of that vetting process was that they reached out to Mangione's mother in San Francisco very late on the seventh. They had a conversation where she didn't indicate that it was her son in the photograph, but she said it might be something that she could see him doing. So that information was -- was going to be passed along to the
detectives the next morning. But fortunately we apprehended him before we could act on that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Kevin?
REPORTER: The commissioner has talked about how the defendants been lionized and celebrated. I'm wondering how concerned you are about a potential jury knowing that someone on that jury would be someone that would lionize and celebrate it?
BRAGG: Well, I want to echo the commissioner's words and concerns, which I think would put forth beautifully. I mean, we -- we see a lot in these jobs. I meet with the families of homicide victims, and I just can't wrap my head around the notion that someone is celebrating this.
To your specific question -- you know, we're at the beginning of a litigation now with our charge. We have a phenomenal trial team in place, led by ADA, Joel Seidman, who is, you know, been in this office for more than 40 years and handled some very challenging matters. We have voir dire process in place. I have faith in our jury system to select 12 people who can be fair and impartial.
But, we'll move forward, and that's something well down the road. But we'll be ready when that time comes.
REPORTER: Two questions, if possible. One will be about Mr. Thompson's family, but the person I want to maybe to explain more to viewers how you (INAUDIBLE) part of this. And so, I'm hoping maybe you can explain that a little more. Just sort of define the statute here a little bit.
BRAGG: Sure. And I -- I mean, the statute talks about attempts to influence or coerce a civilian population. The statute talks about intending to influence a policy of government. And it talks about seeking to, you know, put forth things sort of similar to that by murder. So, the statute, the plain language of the statute is clear.
Obviously, we've charged it. The grand jury has voted on it, and we intend to go forward and prove it. But I think it does help to take a step back, you know, and think about the proof in the case, some of the writings. I'm not going to get into too much of that, but -- and the actual reaction, you know, in the middle of Midtown, the beginning of a busy day, tourists, commuters, business people, the intent was to sow terror.
REPORTER: And if I could just (INAUDIBLE) you know, sadly, as you say, not a lot of focus has been given to Mr. Thompson or his family. I'm wondering if victim services folks or any of the folks in your office have been talking to them about what that's been like if there's anything you can say about that.
BRAGG: I'm not going to talk about communications with the family, other than to say that we have a robust survivor services staff here. That is second to none, but I would not talk about communications with any family. I don't think it would be appropriate. But I appreciate your concern.
REPORTER: Well, just because, like you're saying, there's been so much focus on the suspect here.
BRAGG: Yeah.
REPORTER: You know, it's quite different than we normally see.
BRAGG: I echo what the commissioner said, and I -- the sentiment of your question, my heart goes out to it. I mean, this is a significant piece of what we do here is we center the trauma of survivors and victims and their families. Significant piece of what I do is sit across the table and look people in the eye and when appropriate, if they want to offer a hug. And we have dedicated advocates and counselors and great staff that focuses on that.
So I agree completely with you, and I wish -- I wish that that's where the public's focus was exclusively. That's where it should be. That's where it is here, in addition to obviously, the facts and the law and the case, but because of respect for your questions coming from, I'm not going to get into communications.
REPORTER: Given the celebration of the (INAUDIBLE).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, absolutely. And we've seen a real increase, sustained increase since December 4th in concern, not just from CEOs, but from corporations broadly. And so going back to the das point, you know, the intent to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, which is, of course, at the root of our state terrorism statute, is very much borne out in this reaction and for good reason. We've had a torrent of online threats. We've had real world activity that the police commissioner flagged, which is abhorrent, and it causes concern.
So we have done a lot to work with corporate security partners, with whom we partner on a daily basis in this city, at the city level, at the state level, trying to make sure that everybody has the best practices that they need, that they know where to flag, not just general ambient concerns, but specific threats that they might be receiving that a few weeks ago, they might have written off as just noise in the online environment that they now take seriously.
[15:55:22]
So these are ongoing conversations that we have. And thanks to all the work that we do together every day, were quite confident that concerns and threats are going to be appropriately directed our way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're going to take two more.
REPORTER: Can you -- could you describe just how rare it is for your office to charge the first degree murder? There has been some talk about how that is reserved to very specific cases in Manhattan. That also to the statements made on the record by the suspect that informed his timeline, in particular, if he's made any specific statement, incriminating or statements that happened in the -- BRAGG: So I'll address the first piece, the first degree murder
statute that has a number of subsections. They're sort of clearly delineated, and they are reserved for, you know, the most uh, abhorrent conduct killing a police officer, serial killing. And the terrorism is one subsection of that.
And so I would say, fortunately, that's not happening a lot. Taking a step back, I don't I can't think of another office that is more equipped to handle a terrorism charge. We have a great terrorism unit. We were at the forefront of getting the statute passed within the last two years. We've tried to very significant terrorism cases, one involving an English speaking operative based in Jamaica, , and another involving someone who was here, uh, and funding overseas terrorism by cryptocurrency.
So we have the expertise and as I mentioned, the expertise on this team. And so we're prepared to go forward.
REPORTER: How about a statement?
BRAGG: I'm not going to go beyond what's in the filing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. Last question. Laura?
REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE)
BRAGG: So as a matter of practice, I don't talk about sentencing outside of court as a first matter, and certainly not at the initial stages of a matter, but I think you can tell the seriousness with which we take this matter, by the way, in which its charged, the murder and the second degree actually has a mandatory life without parole sentence, no discretion for the judge, at all. So that's the maximum there.
But I'm not going to go beyond that. We will first get the defendant to New York. We will have him arraigned. We will be before our judge. We will engage in pretrial litigation. If there's a trial were ably equipped to do that. And then we will proceed to sentencing, at which point well make our arguments in court.
Thank you all so much thank you.
I was taking your book.
SCIUTTO: We've been listening there to the Manhattan D.A., as well as other New York City officials. announcing an update in the case against Luigi Mangione, announcing that they a grand jury has now charged him with multiple charges, including -- and this is crucial -- first degree murder, first degree because one of the aggravating -- aggravating factors is a murder intended to terrorize, which they say was part of the alleged intent here.
We should also note some other details they revealed, including that the defendant's mother was contacted after the first images of him emerged. She was asked when an officer in San Francisco recognized the person in those photos as possibly being Luigi Mangione, the mother was asked. She could not confirm his identity, but she did say as the detective, the chief of detectives in New York described it, that this was something that he might be interested in doing. Remarkable statement there.
We'll continue, of course, to follow all developments regarding the New York case. Thanks so much for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington.
"QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" is up next.
