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Israel: Body Handed Over By Hamas Is Not Shiri Bibas; Trump: Zelenskyy "Has No Cards" For Negotiations; German Voters Head To Polls Sunday In High-Stakes Election; Growing Concern Over Trump, DOGE Power Grab; Accused Killer Luigi Mangione Appears In NYC Court. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired February 21, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:01:12]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: It's 8:00 p.m. in London, 3:00 p.m. here in Washington. I'm Jim Sciutto. Thanks so much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM. And let's get right to the news.

In remarks that echoed his speeches in the immediate aftermath of October 7th, the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is vowing now to make Hamas pay the full price. This for failing to return the body of Shiri Bibas, as promised. Her remains were supposed to be among those returned yesterday, including, sadly, the bodies of her two young sons and an elderly Israeli hostage. But Israel says it received the remains of an unknown Palestinian woman instead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: All of Israel is united in grief, and as the prime minister of Israel, I vow that I will not rest until the savages who executed our hostages are brought to justice. They do not deserve to walk this earth. Nothing will stop me. Nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Hamas has long said she and her two young sons were killed in an Israeli air strike this back in November 2023. Israel, however, is accusing Hamas of murdering the little boys, quote, in cold blood. Hamas says it is possible her remains were mixed up after an airstrike and will investigate Israel's claims. Hamas insists it remains committed to its cease fire and hostage release obligations.

Nic Robertson is in Jerusalem with more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Hamas is describing this as a mix up. In essence, they're saying this is, on their part, an honest mistake. You've heard from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu saying very clearly that he doesn't believe that. He believes that that -- that Hamas is not acting in the good interests of Israel at this point and is vowing for this revenge, if you will, to make sure that Hamas pays for this. So where is her body? Hamas is implying that this mix up would mean it

is somewhere still in Gaza. Do they know precisely where it is? But -- but I think this is only just one of the tensions that has emerged out of all of this. It's not just what Hamas would describe as the mix up over her body. The Israelis would describe as something else.

But what a challenge on Hamas narrative that the family, the boys, died in an Israeli air strike very, very clearly now, in quite extreme terms. The IDF is describing this, their deaths as cold blooded murder.

DANIEL HAGARI, IDF SPOKESPERSON: Contrary to Hamas's lies, Ariel and Kfir were not killed in an air strike. Ariel and Kfir Bibas were murdered by terrorists in cold blood. The terrorists did not shoot the two young boys. They killed them with their bare hands. Afterwards, they committed horrific acts to cover up this atrocity.

ROBERTSON: So you have this extreme variance now between the two narratives. Hamas says, and the Israeli government. And into all of that, the Bibas family, the aunt of Kfir and Ariel, has, in essence, gone against what the prime minister is saying rather than calling for revenge, is calling for release of the other hostages to be the priority. Now, this is what she said.

OFRI BIBAS, AUNT OF ARILE AND KFIR BIBAS: For Ariel and Kfir's sake, and for Yarden's sake, we are not seeking revenge right now. We are asking for Shiri. Their cruelty only emphasizes the urgent need to bring Shiri back to us, save the lives of the living hostages and return all the fallen for burial.

President Trump, I'm asking you. Please assist Israel and our family in completing this important mission.

ROBERTSON: But in essence, the real question is where is Shiri Bibas body? And at the moment, as far as we know, Hamas doesn't have DNA testing equipment. It has had a huge number. They would say over 48,000 people killed. The challenge to find Shiri Bibas body may be huge, but Hamas has yet to give more details about how they're going to reset what they are describing as -- as a mix up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Our thanks to Nic Robertson there in Jerusalem.

Joining us now is retired Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Conricus, former IDF spokesperson, now a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies think tank.

Jonathan, thanks so much for joining.

JONATHAN CONRICUS, FORMER IDF SPOKESPERSON: Thank you for having me, shalom.

SCIUTTO: So, first, can -- can you tell us how? Israel knows definitively the circumstances of the death of the Bibas children? And are they confident in that assessment that it was not an Israeli airstrike, rather that this was a deliberate murder?

CONRICUS: Yeah. I don't think that Israel would say what said and I don't think as trustworthy as Daniel Hagari would go out with such strong words if it wasn't on very solid forensic basis. And know that he personally spoke with Yarden Bibas, the bereaved and the bereaved father asked him to say these words and to even go into the details, the very graphic details, and you can imagine what it means to kill a 9 or 10 year old baby with your bare hands, and then to do all manner of things. You know. Make it look as if he was killed by something else.

And, you know, it isn't the first time you remember, perhaps released Israeli hostage Daniella Gilboa, who was pronounced dead by Hamas and the Islamic jihad. They claimed that it was an Israeli airstrike. And then, surprisingly, she was released alive from captivity many months after. So it wouldn't be the first time and it wouldn't be the last of Hamas's lies. I find mixed coverage and the amount of credibility that he that he attaches to Hamas's statements and their -- what they're saying. I find it absolutely mind blowing that it's even, you know, its two sides of story.

And if Hamas is a truthful, honest broker and even to say honest and in the same word or same sentence as Hamas really is baffling for me. And I really think that should be reconsidered. Hamas has a long, long track record of lying, of psychological warfare, of distortion, of absolute atrocities, and even to give them the benefit of doubt, I think is horrible.

SCIUTTO: There had already been concerns about the ceasefire lasting and either making it through the first stage, or the possibility of going on to a second stage. How does this impact the ceasefire, and does it perhaps spell the end for it?

CONRICUS: Yeah. No, I don't think that it spells the end. And I think that Hamas are now trying to backtrack as quickly as possible. Reports that I have that are still unconfirmed by the IDF is that Hamas claims that they have transferred the body this time, the correct body of Shiri to the Red Cross, and that the Red Cross is supposedly on its way to transfer that to the IDF, still on, reported by none other than the closest ally of terrorist organizations, Al Jazeera, and usually they have access to first hand information when it comes from Hamas.

So what Israel has said, and I think you can see this from the past dilemmas that Israel has been presented with, even though Hamas has been adding tremendous insult to injury with their choreographed events and with their propaganda time and again, what Israel has chosen is to continue and to implement the remainder of the deal in order to get Israeli hostages back, despite the fact that Hamas has been really pushing the envelope. And I don't think that Israel is looking for even though the blood is boiling, I would say, collectively speaking in Israel so far, what Israel is doing is preparing for tomorrow.

The six hostages, hopefully in, in, in what we could hope for is walking conditions and then to get more hostages back. That seems to be the number one priority of Israel. SCIUTTO: Jonathan Conricus, thanks so much for joining this

afternoon, this evening, of course, where you are.

[15:10:04]

Well, we are tracking what has been a tumultuous week for relations between the U.S. and Ukraine. The U.S. president urging, pressuring, one might say, his Ukrainian counterpart to make a deal with Russia or risk losing his country.

In an interview on Fox News Radio today, Trump slammed once again the Ukrainian president, saying, quote, he has no cards. And that therefore it is not important for him to be at the meetings discussing peace, regarding his very own country.

Days after falsely claiming that Ukraine started the war -- in fact, of course, it's Russia that invaded -- the U.S. president appeared to backtrack, perhaps somewhat, while still blaming Kyiv and the former Biden administration for the Russian invasion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's so bad for Russia, and it's bad for Ukraine, and it's bad for us on a humanitarian basis. I have had very good talks with Putin, and I've had not such good talks with Ukraine, and they don't have any cards, but they play it tough. But we're not -- we're not going to let this continue.

This -- this war is terrible. It would have never happened if I were president. But it did happen. So I got stuck with it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Nick Paton Walsh is in Kyiv for us.

And, Nick, if Ukrainians, both members of the public, members of the military, were looking for some comfort from the U.S. president and acknowledgment who invaded the country, who is at fault, and that the U.S. has its back in effect. I can't imagine they heard that in President Trump's latest comments.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: No, no, and it appeared to have taken the Fox News interview a significant attempts to get Donald Trump to say Russia indeed attacked Ukraine. In fact, he even misspoke and said Russia was attacked first. So yes, it's a complex interview, to say the least, in which he also went on to suggest that essentially this was down to a failures by Biden and Zelenskyy to diffuse the war.

I should point out, he also mentions that there was a failure to negotiate during the war by -- sorry, there was a failure to try and stop the war by the Biden administration. We both know, Jim, that they did send emissaries to the Kremlin to say they were aware of their aims and try and persuade them out of it. And he also falsely suggests that Zelenskyy has been negotiating for a substantial period of time and failed. That's also inaccurate.

And so, yeah, no comfort there at all, particularly the phrase I think I'm just sick of it stands out to me in particular, suggesting that, as he says, he sort of feels himself saddled with this war and that somehow it's Zelenskyy's fault that he hasn't managed to bring it to an end in the three years under which his country has been under relentless military assault.

So yes, it's a -- I think for many in Ukraine here troubling to see after days of the relationship deteriorate. And I hope that maybe last night what Zelenskyy tried to suggest were positive signals coming out of his meeting with Trump's envoy to Ukraine and Russia, General Keith Kellogg, that were now again into hearing Trump offering at least the carrot of accepting Russia began the war, but also with that, suggesting that he's just simply tired of Zelenskyy, the man with no cards not striking a deal faster to see this deterioration again reoccur.

And I believe the last week has left many Ukrainians shaken to some degree, in that the original comments by Zelenskyy that Trump lived in a circle were trying to correct, I think, existential issues from what he'd said about Ukraine having started the war and Zelenskyy having a 4 percent approval rating. But we're now after this trading of insults, really focusing, I think, here in Ukraine on the idea of how this rare earth mineral deal can indeed be settled in some way.

We understand from Ukraine official that that is part of intense negotiations between Ukrainian and U.S. officials today. The Ukrainians want to see security elements. Was the phrase that the official I spoke to, used, put into that particular deal. Zelenskyy has spoken of security guarantees. I'm not sure if that suggests that. Maybe they're just more realistic about what the U.S. is willing to provide. But the official said there's a real sense of urgency here, and they are on multiple versions of this draft, so it's changing in front of them constantly.

But it is also clear from hearing national security advisor Mike Waltz and Trump, indeed himself, that they are fixated on this idea of Ukraine's resources. The initial draft, the deal was all about repaying the United States for earlier debt that, in their mind, incurred through loans aid given by the Biden administration. And so, yes, it's been a very complex week for Ukraine-Russian relations, the idea that Kellogg would come here and offer Ukraine some sort of seat at the table in the peace negotiations, or at least explain or ask Ukraine for what it wanted from that, overshadowed by the spat between Trump and Zelenskyy, and we're now into a 72 hours in which were edging into the fourth year of this war, and the question marks over U.S. support never bigger.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. And even a failure unwillingness by the U.S. president to acknowledge the facts. Russia invaded Ukraine seems to be self- evident. Nick Paton Walsh in Kyiv, thanks so much.

Joining us now is Oleksiy Goncharenko. He's a member of the Ukrainian parliament, joining us now from Odessa, which has been under tremendous attacks in recent days by Russia. Thanks so much for joining.

I wonder there has been some speculation that Trump is saying one thing. His advisers, including the secretary of state, the Ukraine envoy, Keith Kellogg, are saying privately, don't listen to what you're hearing publicly. There are approach to Russia has not changed that much.

I wonder if you believe that or do you take President Trump's statements as an expression of a major change in the U.S. approach to this war?

OLEKSIY GONCHARENKO, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT MEMBER: Hi. You know, during these last several weeks, we have a huge amount of different rhetorics and part of which is very concerning for Ukraine. But I think we need to think and to be interested not in rhetorics but in actual what is done. Indeed.

So that is the, you know, what is said, it doesn't mean so much as what is done. So I think that the most important which is happening right now is American track of negotiations with Putin, and we can't assess it for the moment because we don't know what will be the result. So we are looking forward to know the result and if this result will be in line with Ukrainian red lines, which is Ukrainian independence, sovereignty, territorial integrity and security guarantees, that would be great. If not, Ukraine will not accept it.

SCIUTTO: Does Ukraine, in your view, have the ability to simply say no to the U.S. president?

GONCHARENKO: It's a catastrophic scenario. It's a bad scenario both for it's bad scenario for U.S., it's catastrophic scenario for Ukraine. Why it's bad scenario for U.S., because that will show that other countries can't count on the United States of America as ally, because U.S. said, we will be with you as long as it takes. So maybe now, it's not the case.

Also, I want to remind you that 30 years ago, Ukraine voluntarily gave up our nukes the first and last time in human history, under security guarantees of the United States. So it's not charity from United States to support Ukraine. It's a fulfilling of obligations which were taken by the United States in 1994.

But if we will go to this catastrophic scenario and we will be without U.S. support, yes, we can fight. Three years ago when the war has started, Ukrainian army stopped Russians. It was not American marines. It was Ukrainian army with no American weaponry, almost, just with our weaponry, we stopped Russians.

We can do this again. But tens of thousands of people will die. So that's a catastrophic scenario.

SCIUTTO: Can I ask before we go, your reaction to the U.S.'s, President Trump's demand that Ukraine give up some of its natural resources, its mineral wealth, as payback for U.S. support? What does that feel like to you? GONCHARENKO: So it's very important. What exactly does it mean?

Because if were speaking about American investments and the United States companies will produce our minerals and will earn money on this, that's amazing. I'm all in this because I want us to have as much economic cooperation with the United States as possible. It's important for us, both economically and from a security point of view.

But if President Trump or the United States are speaking about giving us a bill for what was provided to Ukraine during last 2 or 3 years is just not fair, because it was a decision of the United States to provide us with security support. We were not choosing what to take. It was a decision of the United States of America, what to give us.

And when it was a present, it was thank you very much. Just everything we can say.

[15:20:03]

But if now somebody will give us a bill, now you need to pay. Sorry. It's unfair.

SCIUTTO: Well, Oleksiy Goncharenko, I speak to you and others in Ukraine, particularly a city such as Odesa that has taken so many attacks, Russian attacks in recent days. Thank you for joining. And we wish that you remain safe. Please stay safe.

GONCHARENKO: Thanks to the American people for all support we are receiving.

SCIUTTO: We wish you the best of luck.

Still ahead this hour, will there be new leadership in Germany, the country one of the U.S.'s closest allies, at least in recent years, decides on a new government. This Sunday. We'll take a look.

Please stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCIUTTO: German police are now investigating an attack at the Holocaust Memorial in Berlin. Details remain scarce. Police say an unknown assailant attacked a man, injuring him so badly he was taken to the hospital. They say the victim's life not in danger, though it does require surgery. Motive remains unknown. The suspect is apparently still at large.

Well, when Germans head to the polls Sunday to elect a new parliament, the economy, immigration reform and Ukraine's war with Russia following Russia's invasion are top issues for voters. The snap election was triggered by the collapse of chancellor Olaf Scholz's coalition.

As CNN's Sebastian Shukla reports, the election will likely shape a new direction for Germany, with global implications.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) SEBASTIAN SHUKLA, CNN PRODUCER (voice-over): One of the final stops for Friedrich Merz of the Christian Democrats, as he zeroes in on the German chancellorship. The predicted winner of Sunday's election will follow the historic trend of German politics, coming from one of the major parties.

FRIEDRICH MERZ, CDU LEADER: We are witnessing an almost tectonic shift in the world's political and economic centers of power.

[15:25:03]

SHUKLA: But the projected success of the far right alternative for Germany, the AFD, coming in second behind Merz, is new, as have been their superpower endorsements. Elon Musk, the world's richest man, appeared as a floating head to address the AFD in January with some grandiose words.

ELON Musk, OWNER, X AND TESLA: This election is so important, it's extremely important. I don't -- do not say it lightly when I think the future of civilization could hang on this election.

SHUKLA: And last week, U.S. Vice President J.D. Vance rebuked Germany in its own backyard at the Munich security conference.

J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: What no democracy, American, German or European will survive is telling millions of voters that their thoughts and concerns, their aspirations, their pleas for relief are invalid.

SHUKLA: Hours later, he met with AFD co-leader Alice Weidel.

Olaf Scholz, the chancellor, had previously criticized Musk and also had some choice words for Vance.

OLAF SCHOLZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): We will not accept it if outsiders intervene in our democracy, in our elections and in the democratic formation of opinion in favor of this party. That is just not done, certainly not amongst friends and allies.

SHUKLA: A faltering economy and security concerns have been among the campaigns major issues. Three deadly attacks in as many months, all carried out by migrants, have poured fuel on the migration debate. The AFD seized on the issue and, as a result, have forced the larger parties to make it a top priority.

But an unwritten political agreement called the firewall, where parties work together to pass legislation without the AFD, means they will likely be frozen out of coalition talks.

Merz has already categorically ruled out working with the AFD should he win. So the question becomes for Germany, with who and how will he form this country's next government?

Sebastian Shukla, CNN, Berlin.

(END VIDEOTAPE) SCIUTTO: For more now on what to expect and the impact of these elections, I want to speak now to Jorn Fleck. He's the senior director with the Atlantic Council's Europe Center.

Jorn, thanks so much for joining this afternoon.

JORN FLECK, SENIOR DIRECTOR, ATLANTIC COUNCIL'S EUROPE CENTER: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: So first, I hesitate to ask you to do election predictions, given the unpredictability of elections, certainly in my own country. But -- but can you describe at least where polling stands, which parties are leading and what the most likely outcome is of this Sunday vote?

FLECK: Yeah, the most likely outcome will almost certainly be a shift to the political right, with the center right conservative CDU/CSU party alliance placing first, just over 30 percent. And then the alternative for Germany, the AFD, placing second with just over 20 percent. All three of the parties that were part of the so-called traffic light coalition, so the current chancellor, Olaf Scholz, Social Democrats, the green party and the liberals will suffer in significant losses in many cases. And in the case of the liberals, the FDP, might not even make that 5 percent threshold. That is part of electoral law in Germany.

SCIUTTO: Okay. Is it likely, then, that the AFD, the right wing AFD, would end up in a coalition government? Or is it possible that a coalition could form without it?

FLECK: Well, your reporter already alluded to the so-called firewall. This pact among -- and promised among all of the mainstream democratic parties not to go into any coalition talks, not to govern with the what they consider a right wing extremist party in the AFD. And so there's almost no chance that the AFD will end up in government, much unlike the changes that we've seen, for example, in Austria with the FPU.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. Not dissimilar from the way we saw some of the parties in France, right, do their best to exclude the right wing party there from government. Regardless of that result, and again, we should allow for the possibility there is surprise. What will this shift mean for Germany -- Germany's involvement in Ukraine, Germanys broader security approach to Europe and the U.S., as well?

FLECK: So I think over the last few years, we've seen Germany really AWOL in terms of its leadership, as the largest economy in the most populous country, the biggest political heavyweight at the European Union level -- relations, key relationships between Berlin and Paris, Berlin and Warsaw soured under the outgoing chancellor and outgoing government.

[15:30:13]

And Friedrich Merz, who's most outgoing chancellor and outgoing government, and outgoing chancellor and outgoing government. And Friedrich Merz, who's most likely as the leader of the CDU, CSU or chancellor candidate of that party alliance is most likely to take over as the next chancellor if he can form a stable coalition. He has already pledged to change that to focus on German leadership at the European level.

And he will face quite the agenda and quite the challenges, because even the next government will face very serious challenges, pressures on the budget and challenging economic outlook. And its -- its main security backstop in the United States, called into question by President Trump. And so this will all complicate the next government's agenda.

SCIUTTO: They will -- whoever wins, right, whatever the government is, will have to contemplate a Europe at a minimum, with less U.S. leadership and the possibility of that going away.

Jorn Fleck, thanks so much for joining.

FLECK: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: And CNN will have a two-hour special on the German election on Sunday, 12:00 p.m. Eastern Time, 5:00 p.m. in London, 6:00 p.m. in Berlin. That, of course, right here on CNN.

Coming up next, signs of some Republican pushback for President Trump's cost-cutting and the ongoing DOGE campaign led by billionaire and presidential buddy Elon Musk.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:35:00]

SCIUTTO: A quick check on the markets as the week is nearing close and it's not pretty. Lots of red there. All major U.S. indices are down. Dow Jones Industrial slipped more than 1.5 percent, more than 700 points. S&P fell similarly. Nasdaq down about 2 percent.

This comes after a Friday economic report which showed American consumers are growing fearful of price increases and President Donald Trump's tariffs, which economists say will reignite inflation.

And there is a growing sense of unease, fear, frustration permeating the U.S. federal workforce as the Trump administration and Elon Musk, his billionaire buddy, continue to conduct mass firings throughout government via the Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE. In some cases, though, the administration is walking back some of the layoffs.

The Defense Department has temporarily paused firings of some employees until it can better review how those firings could impact U.S. military readiness. You might said they should have thought of that before. This comes as the White House denies plans to take control of the independent U.S. Postal Service following reports that Trump planned to disband the agency and perhaps privatize it.

The White House says that Elon Musk is not a government employee, and that he does not run the cost cutting agency DOGE. Somewhat surprising, but this could become an iconic image of the first few weeks. The tech billionaire showing off what he called his bureaucracy chainsaw at the conservative conference being held right now near Washington, D.C.

There does seem to be some concerns that a growing number of Americans don't like the direction Trump and Moscow are taking. Fifty-four percent of new polls say they are afraid or pessimistic about the rest of the second term, while Democrats are expressing their expected outrage about mass firings and huge budget cuts. Some Republicans are also now feeling the pinch as they return to their home districts and hear a lot of complaints.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICH MCCORMICK, U.S. REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE: When you talk about presidential power, I remember having the same discussion with Republicans when Biden was elected.

(BOOS)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Well, what was the reaction to that? Lots of boos. People at the red state town hall jeered Republican congressman, a Republican congressman there for backing the Trump agenda.

Phil Mattingly has been covering this quite closely.

First, on a very basic question. Seems pretty clear Elon Musk is running this show and he's not shying away from it. He's very public about it. You know, from chainsaws to his posts on X, et cetera. But they say he's not running it. How do they make that claim?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF U.S. DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: So they made the claim in a court filing a sworn disclosure from a personnel official saying that he was a government employee, but he was not the leader of DOGE officially, nor was he connected to DOGE at all. In fact, he's a senior advisor in the White House. He has a West Wing office.

I think what's important, when you look at how they're playing this right now. Musk and Musk's role are not the only thing that have been opaque over the course of the last four weeks. Everything they've done, for the most part over the course of the last four weeks has been we've found out about it through career officials at the agency saying there's somebody in our agency right now. Musk will tweet about it, maybe, but the White House is not disclosing any of this or not telling you the structure. They're not telling you the org chart. They're not telling you who's doing what, where and when and why. It's a feature, not a bug.

And I think when you talk to officials who are in and around this operation, what they stress is their ability to be effective in the first month in terms of what they want to do, has been very much accelerated by the fact nobody knows exactly what they're going to do. And a good example of this is on January 20th, as Donald Trump was signing the order, actually creating DOGE within the federal government, political appointees, all of whom had direct ties to Elon Musk's companies, were taking over the Office of Personnel Management and the general services administration, the nerve centers of the federal government that you and I would never talk about on live TV and yet control the personnel, the technology, the real estate, everything.

That by the time people realized that was happening, they already had control.

SCIUTTO: It sounds a lot like a plan, right? It doesn't sound like an accident. It sounds like a plan.

Are any of the roadblocks -- the Democrats and other groups, including federal employees, unions, et cetera, are any of the roadblocks they're attempting to put up, stopping any of those progress?

MATTINGLY: In Congress, absolutely not. I think what you actually led with something that's really important here. The only thing that could change the trajectory of this is the politics moving sharply away from it. And if Republicans who I'm told, and I'm sure you've heard, too, have made very clear behind the scenes, hey, maybe not that agency, maybe not that contract, maybe not that person.

SCIUTTO: Touches my district.

MATTINGLY: That touches my district.

If they start going public, if they start getting really frustrated, if they put a lot of pressure on the White House, if they threaten the legislative priorities, then maybe it moves a little bit. But right now, nobody is standing in the way of Elon Musk. While White House officials are frustrated, they don't always know what he's doing. They know at this moment President Trump likes it.

SCIUTTO: Right. Phil Mattingly, thanks so much for keeping track.

[15:40:02]

Well, there are also questions as to how this might affect President Trump's approval rating one month into a second term.

CNN's senior political analyst Ron Brownstein has been tracking.

And, Ron, I'm sure you've been watching these numbers. Recent poll Trump a question on how Trump is using presidential power. 52 percent say it's gone too far, 39 percent says -- it's say its been about right, 8 percent not far enough.

I mean, when I look at those numbers, I'm thinking that -- that's about the political divide right there, 52 to 47, right?

So it's not like it's a dramatic shift against him. Do you see any warning signs, though, for the president? RON BROWNSTEIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

look, as you say, we are in a pretty dug in country. So movement compared to earlier generations, you know, will be -- will be seen as mostly at the margin. But, you know, I've looked at, Jim, eight public polls in the last ten days or so that have Trumps approval rating already negative among independent voters. And seven of the eight it is negative by at least double digits, including one poll done by Tony Fabrizio's firm and John Anzalone's firm, who are the pollsters for Trump and Harris done for the AARP that had him negative 20 among independent voters.

And it's not entirely surprising I think when you look at the way the first month of the administration has unfolded on two fronts. First, he has taken a pretty narrow victory as the justification to pursue a complete, you know, remaking of the federal government and the U.S. role in the world and pursuing a lot of ideas that are on a right wing wish list, energize his supporters, but are not that popular among the marginal voters who put him over the top.

And secondly, while he's doing all that, there's a clear perception among voters that he is not focusing as much on the issue that they elected him to solve, above all, which is inflation. One poll, I think the CNN poll was 60 percent of independent voters said he is not focusing on the issues that are most important to the country. So, yeah, I think those are pretty clear warning signs.

SCIUTTO: It was interesting in the polling, the one person who comes out not in particularly good stead is Elon Musk. CNN's poll found only 28 percent of Americans think his role is a good thing, 54 percent think it's a bad thing.

Trump is very aware, right, of public perceptions of things when he wants to be. Is there a time limit, right, on how long this bromance between Trump and Musk lasts?

BROWNSTEIN: Yeah. And by the way, that CNN poll is very consistent with other polling that has found that as well as "The Washington Post" poll that came out yesterday that found out that over, not shockingly, over 60 percent of Americans are concerned about Musk's effort having access to their financial data. And a little more surprisingly, about 60 percent also said in that poll, they were concerned and disapproved of large scale layoffs of federal workers.

And as we've talked about before, the real kind of check on that, the bill on that comes due down the road for -- for Trump and Musk. I mean, once you lay off a lot of federal workers, you are kind of on the hook for what happens next. You lay off safety inspectors and there are, you know, outbreaks of food poisoning. You lay off National Park Service and there are longer lines and degraded facilities and national parks this summer.

I mean, Musk to some extent is a heat shield for Trump in that, you know, all the focus on him can, you know, Trump one step of removal. But this really, I think fits into kind of the broader point, which is that, you know, presidents often take, you know, every victory as a sign of kind of a mandate from heaven. But what Trump is doing is different.

Usually when presidents overreach, it's by proposing legislation that gets rejected. He's marrying an overreach on his mandate with this, you know, exorbitant view of unilateral executive authority. So they are really breaking a lot of crockery very quickly in a way that's pleasing their base. But I think there are a lot of voters in the middle who put them over the top who are kind of, you know, kind of questioning whether this is what they signed up for.

SCIUTTO: Yeah. You're phrasing Musk as a heat shield, you know, could -- could end up a sacrificial lamb, right, if it gets too bad.

Ron Brownstein, thanks so much, as always.

Well, this breaking news just in to CNN. Israeli authorities say they are preparing to receive the remains of a body which Hamas says is the hostage Shiri Bibas. This comes after yesterday's announcement from the IDF saying that the DNA of one of the bodies they had received from Hamas did not match that of Shiri Bibas. We'll see how that progresses.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:47:53]

SCIUTTO: The accused killer of UnitedHealthcare CEO is making a court appearance today. Supporters of Luigi Mangione showed up early to support the accused killer. His alleged actions targeting the health care CEO even garnered him a crowdfunding website to help fund his legal defense.

Mangione is accused of fatally shooting Brian Thompson in midtown Manhattan on December 4th, in the early morning hours. The 26-year-old has now been indicted on murder and terror charges. After today's hearing, his attorney said Mangione is being unfairly treated differently than others in jail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAREN FRIEDMAN AGNIFILO, ATTORNEY FOR LUIGI MANGIONE: He is being held in federal custody, and the Department of Justice has -- has refused to allow him to be in state custody, despite the fact that they have all agreed that the state court is going to go first.

Now, this is problematic for several reasons. Number one, the federal government is still considering whether to execute Luigi and considering whether to seek the death penalty. So we are fighting that simultaneously while going first here in state court.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now is CNN's Brynn Gingras, who has been covering the case from New York.

And I wonder what the biggest results outcomes of today's hearing were? BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Jim, really,

this was a conference hearing. So basically we were waiting to see, you know, what's going to happen next in this before we get a trial date. A trial date actually was not set. We were possibly expecting that, but that didn't happen.

We basically learned about sort of a motion schedule that the prosecutor and Luigi Mangione's defense attorney needs to follow. We also learned about some of the evidence that prosecutors have turned over to his defense attorney that you saw right there, including autopsy reports, police reports, body camera footage, a lot of surveillance video, things that we had previously learned about, but some new items as well.

She argued in court that she hasn't seen enough evidence, and she actually wants more evidence handed over. She actually argued a little bit outside the courthouse there, too, about the media attention that this case has garnered, specifically pointing to a documentary that was recently released saying she didn't really appreciate seeing the NYPD part of that documentary before this case is even set to trial, sort of saying similar things to what we heard last time he appeared in court in December, where she, you know, took issue with that infamous -- now infamous perp-walk of Luigi Mangione that we all saw.

[15:50:23]

But also, as you were just showing your viewers, Jim, a big part of this was the public attention that this one little sort of next step in the court process garnered. Dozens of people showed up for this court hearing. More than a dozen of the general public were allowed actually inside the courtroom, as many that could fit.

There were chants from outside the courthouse saying, free man, free Luigi. There was a truck that circled the courthouse, showing Mangione as somewhat of a savior. Of course, this is something that law enforcement, political leaders have been trying to fight against, sort of this movement. And you also mentioned about all this money that is going to support his legal defense fund.

So that was a big part of this case today. But as far as the procedural side of this, what we know now is that he is going to be back in court. Really, the next step begins in June. So we'll see it back then. But certainly this fascination with Mangione continues until then.

SCIUTTO: Yeah, the public support for an accused murderer. Brynn Gingras, thanks so much.

GINGRAS: Yeah.

SCIUTTO: Well, just after the break, a four nations face off stunner between the U.S. and Canada on ICE. Quite a match.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Centering pass, McDavid scores! Connor McDavid wins it for Canada.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Wow, what a game.

With that goal, Team Canada finished off Team USA 3-2 in overtime last night, in the inaugural four nations face off championships. While celebrating the game, the Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau trolling President Trump, tweeting: You can't take our country and you can't take our game.

I went to the -- I went to the first game between the USA and Canada over the weekend. And I'll tell you, this moment stuck in my mind as it happened. It was the booing that took place inside that arena during the U.S. national anthem, and soon after, fistfights, three fistfights in the first nine seconds of that first matchup.

Thankfully, last night, no fistfights. Just that winning goal.

I want to end today by thanking my show team. Starting next week, I'll be coming to you at 6:00 p.m. Eastern weekdays. More details to come on that.

But that means I'm saying goodbye to the folks I've worked with every day for more than a year now. You don't see their faces, you don't read their names, but you do see their work every day. They are dedicated to the news and the facts, calm and cool, in the face of the daily challenges of covering our world today and a true personal pleasure to know and work with.

I miss seeing them every day and will remain truly grateful. Matt, Michael, Tess, Gabby, Christine, Michael and Mari, thanks to all of you.

And thanks so much to you for joining me today. We're going to have much more news in "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS" with Paula Newton today. That's coming up next.