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President Fires Chairman Of The Joint Chiefs, General CQ Brown; Pentagon Plans To Fire 47k To 76k Civilian Employees In Coming Weeks; Final Living Hostages Released Under First Phase Of Gaza Ceasefire; 90 Cases Of Measles Reported In West Texas, 9 In New Mexico; Voters Express Outrage At Town Halls Over Trump Cuts. Last Group Of Living Hostages Released Under 1st Phase Of Gaza Ceasefire; U.S. Proposes UN Resolution Marking Anniversary Of War In Ukraine; Will Pope Francis Resign Over Health Concerns? Aired 12-1p ET

Aired February 22, 2025 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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EDWARD ENNINFUL, FORMER EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, BRITISH VOGUE: -- human beings on the planet.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: I mean, I wouldn't argue with that, of course.

ENNINFUL: You'll agree.

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[12:00:05]

AMANPOUR: Such a great shout-out. That's all we have time for. Don't forget, you can find all of our shows online as podcasts at CNN.com/audio, and on all other major platforms.

I'm Christiane Amanpour in Washington. Thank you for watching. And I'll see you again next week back in London.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me this Saturday. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

And we begin this hour with a major purge at the Pentagon. President Trump has fired the highest-ranking military officer in the country. On top of that, thousands of Pentagon employees are expected to be fired next week.

In a late-night media post, President Trump announced the dismissal of General Charles Q. Brown. He was the second black man ever to serve as the most senior military leader. Along with Brown, Trump fired vice chief of the Air Force and the first woman to serve on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, a sign of the administration's attempt to eliminate leaders appointed by former President Joe Biden and those who support DEI initiatives. CNN's Oren Liebermann starts off our coverage with these details.

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: This is an unprecedented purge at the top of the military, one that's been rumored and speculated about for weeks now. It started with President Donald Trump announcing on social media that he was firing the top U.S. general, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs General CQ Brown.

Trump said Brown was a, quote, "fine gentleman". Brown had been a frequent target of right-wing criticism, and there had long been speculation that he was going to be fired quickly. We just didn't know quite how quickly. Now we have that answer one month into the Trump administration.

Now, just days before he was picked to run the Pentagon, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth said Brown should be fired, along with the other, quote, "woke generals and admirals". But at least for the time, the two had worked together, having daily or near-daily meetings.

In fact, Brown was visiting the southern border just hours before he was fired. Trump immediately announced his pick to replace Brown, recently-retired Air Force Lieutenant General Dan Razin Caine. Trump has long had a fascination with Caine.

Bringing him up in several speeches over the last four or five years, he says Caine was instrumental in the defeat of ISIS. Trump hinted at more firings to come, and it was only a few minutes later that Hegseth announced the chief of the Navy, Admiral Lisa Franchetti, was also being terminated. Hegseth called her a DEI hire in his book that came out last year.

In a Friday night statement, Hegseth also indicated that the top judge advocates general in the Army, Navy, and Air Force will also be replaced. That, too, is an extraordinary move. The JAGs, according to a former judge advocate general, are the conscience of the military, the guides on what's right and what's wrong, what's ethical and moral.

Hegseth called them JAG-offs in his book and questioned their value. Taken together, these firings are an unprecedented reshaping of the top of the military.

Oren Liebermann, CNN in Washington.

WHITFIELD: All right, thanks so much, Oren. The Pentagon firings don't stop there. It has also been announced plans to fire tens of thousands more employees in the coming weeks, federal employees, with the next round of firings happening in just a matter of days.

CNN's Betsy Klein joining us live from the White House. Betsy, what do we know about the firings?

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE PRODUCER: Well, as Oren just laid out, the Trump administration clearly moving swiftly here to dramatically reshape military leadership, but stepping back more broadly, also set to make sweeping cuts to the Pentagon's civilian workforce. Now, to take a look at the numbers, there are about 950,000 civilian employees at the Department of Defense. That includes people who do things like analysis and research, building things, people who are teachers, who teach our service members' children abroad.

But starting next week, a first tranche of about 5,400 of those civilian employees who are probationary workers, who do not have mission-critical roles, will be let go. Now, more broadly, these cuts are going to be much bigger in the end.

The Pentagon is expected to fire between 5 percent and 8 percent of its civilian workforce. So just doing the math there, that's between 47,000 and 76,000 civilian workers. Now, this is a shift because initially about 55,000 employees were expected to be laid off en masse, and they are -- took steps to slow those and pause those firings while they sorted out what was mission-critical and what would impact U.S. military readiness.

Now, defense spending makes up about 14 percent of U.S. federal spending overall. The president here taking steps towards slashing that spending. And for his part, President Trump saying in a post to social media earlier today that he would like Elon Musk, whom he has dispatched with making a lot of these cuts, to, quote, "get more aggressive".

[12:05:06]

But there is some skepticism from Americans toward these federal cuts. 51 percent in a new CNN poll say that Trump has gone too far in cutting federal programs. 32 percent say it's been about right. 17 percent say not far enough.

And we are starting to see some signs of blowback, Fredricka, as lawmakers have returned to their districts and are starting to hear from their constituents.

WHITFIELD: Indeed, they are. And, Betsy, the president today still is on schedule, as far as we know, right, to speak at the CPAC, a gathering of conservatives. Is there any expectation of what might be in his speech?

KLEIN: Well, we do expect him to address some of his most ardent supporters. And taking a look at the programming at this conference over the past few days, we've seen top administration officials, as well as top leaders of the conservative movement from across the globe. And to that end, he will be meeting on the sidelines of this conference a little bit later today with Polish President Duda before giving remarks.

Now, just to give you a sense of where his headspace has been for the past few hours, the president has been posting on social media things like the release of six Israeli hostages by Hamas, as well as attacking the leadership of MSNBC. He pointed to his own poll numbers and expected big crowds at CPAC.

But, you know, more broadly, we've seen the president take steps toward dramatically expanding the use of executive authority. We have seen him transform the size and scope of the U.S. government and also reimagine the role of the U.S. in the world. So we should expect him to continue on some of those themes, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right. Betsy Klein at the White House, thanks so much.

All right, now to the Middle East, where Hamas has released the final living hostages under the first phase of the ceasefire agreement with Israel. A total of six were freed today. And as we've seen in previous weeks, there were emotional reunions.

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WHITFIELD: Israel was expected to release more than 600 Palestinian prisoners and detainees as part of the agreement, but that has been delayed.

CNN's Nic Robertson is in Jerusalem. Nic, what can you tell us about this delayed release?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, this is an unexpected wrinkle and something that Hamas is actually calling a violation of their agreement with the Israeli government. The Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, is having what's being called a security consultation right around now this evening to decide about future hostage releases.

And also we're told that at that meeting, they'll take a vote on the release of these Palestinian detainees and prisoners. There are 620 of them, by the way, 151 life or long-term sentence prisoners, of which 97 are expected to be expelled from the country.

And also there were 445 men from Gaza who were detained, 23 children and one woman as well. So a big number of detainees uncharged who've been picked up in Gaza since October 7th. They were expected to be handed over too. Their families have been out there in the cold and in the rain waiting for them.

And as you saw there, a different day for the families of those six Israeli hostages held by Hamas. And one of them, Eliya Cohen, coming back to what can only be described as an amazing homecoming. He'd gone to the Nova Music Festival where he was taken hostage with his fiancee, Ziv.

Ziv survived the shooting there by hiding under the bodies of, unfortunately, her nephew and her nephew's girlfriend who'd gone there with them. She hid. Now, Eliya thought she was dead. So when he came back today, to his obvious amazement, she was alive. So an amazing homecoming there.

I was talking as well to the mother of the only living American hostage being still held by Hamas about her hopes for getting her son back. And this is what she told me.

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YAEL ALEXANDER, SON BEING HELD CAPTIVE BY HAMAS: We don't know. He's supposed to be in the phase two. That's why we all need to push for having the phase two. There is more than dozens of young men that are waiting to be released. We know our son, Edan, is alive and is waiting to be released. I'm just hoping that he's staying strong and surviving and his day will come.

ROBERTSON: And what have you heard about him, about his condition, anything about him until now?

ALEXANDER: So we heard a lot of testimonials from people that released in November, 2023, and they saw Edan in the tunnel. They told us how strong he was. He was trying to help the Thai workers to negotiate with Hamas.

To tell them, listen, the Thai workers, they are not Israeli. Maybe they can go home.

[12:10:06]

But we heard a lot of stories that Edan was standing up for people and trying to help them. And let's not forget, Edan kidnapped. He was only 19. So to hear it by my beautiful boy, it was -- he gave me a lot of hope that he's strong and he's surviving.

And the last Thanksgiving weekend, we saw, we all saw Edan in Hamas video, speaking to Benjamin Netanyahu, to President Trump, to please release them from this hell that they are living there. He spoke to the family. He told us to be strong.

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ROBERTSON: You know, and that's one of the things with all of these hostages that come back, there's a chance for the IDF to talk to them about, other hostages that they've seen to pass on information to other families. And you hear there just how important it is. Any tiny snippet of information really helps the families get through these really terrible and tough days. Fredricka?

WHITFIELD: Right. And so, Nic, if this was to mark the end of phase one, and we heard from the mother right there, who says, you know, we got to have phase two, is it in jeopardy?

ROBERTSON: It is for a multitude of reasons. The political pressures on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and his government to continue the war, because phase two was always going to be harder, because it talks about getting, you know, a final pull out of Israeli troops from inside of Gaza, talking about a final ceasefire.

It also includes the release of all the living hostages. That was going to be tough. And Hamas refuses to leave Gaza, and they're still present and still strong. They can't fire missiles the way they used to into Israel. But Prime Minister Netanyahu and President Trump both said that the only future for Gaza is one without Hamas. So there's all sorts of intersecting points in flux here, and it's hard to see where they all meet and can actually join up and allow, therefore, phase two to actually happen.

WHITFIELD: All right. Nic Robertson in Jerusalem, thank you so much.

All right, back in this country, the measles outbreak in West Texas, exploding in size, nearing 100 confirmed cases now, even spreading to people who are vaccinated against the virus. What you need to know to stay safe.

Plus, will Ukraine give the U.S. rare earth minerals in exchange for continued support of the country's defenses? A source familiar with the negotiations telling CNN that is not an offer Zelenskyy will accept.

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WHITFIELD: All right, welcome back. A measles outbreak plaguing parts of Texas and New Mexico. It's growing. Health officials now say at least 90 people have been infected in West Texas, most of them children, with 16 patients hospitalized. And there are nine other cases in New Mexico.

For more now on all of this, we're joined by Dr. Peter Hotez. He's a professor and dean of tropical medicine at Baylor College of Medicine. And he's the co-director of the Center for Vaccine Development at Texas Children's Hospital.

And there's more. His latest book is called "The Deadly Rise of Anti- Science: A Scientist's Warning". Dr. Hotez, always great to see you.

DR. PETER HOTEZ, CO-DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR VACCINE DEVELOPMENT TEXAS CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL: Good to see you.

WHITFIELD: All right, so this latest report was a pretty significant jump in a number of cases seen in Texas. 32 more than had been reported just a few days ago. I mean, is this emblematic of how quickly it spreads?

HOTEZ: Yes, and I think it's likely going to continue to increase. We may still be, you know, Fredricka, at the early stages of this. The reason I say that is the measles virus has what's called an incubation period, the period from when you're exposed to the virus to you show symptoms of around 12 to 13 days.

So this may just represent the latest round of individuals infected. It takes another close to two weeks before the next group of cohort will pop up. So I expect these numbers will continue to increase. I'm hearing from colleagues on the ground there that there may be many more cases that still haven't yet been confirmed.

So this is a big deal. This is a very serious and very dangerous measles epidemic.

WHITFIELD: It is very unsettling. Now, most of the cases are among those who are unvaccinated, but then officials say five patients had received a vaccine. So how is this possible?

HOTEZ: Well, a single dose of the measles vaccine, which you usually get between 12 and 15 months of age, is around 90 percent protective. Two doses is 97 percent. So my guess would be that those five individuals have probably received a single dose of vaccine because it's not perfect. There's still some breakthrough infection.

But even then, those individuals tend not to have severe infection. They tend not to be able to transmit the infection. And, by the way, they usually only get breakthrough infection when you have a really big virus exposure, so a high inoculum of virus. So that says to me that there's a lot of virus going around Gaines County and areas of West Texas and New Mexico right now.

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WHITFIELD: Would the symptoms be the same among those who have been vaccinated, even if it's partially vaccinated, or those who are unvaccinated?

HOTEZ: Probably a lot milder, less fever, less temperature, milder rash. And I would guess unlikely that severe enough to require hospitalization. So most likely the 16 individuals who've been hospitalized for measles so far, close to 20 percent of infected individuals.

Overwhelmingly, those would be among the unvaccinated. So the point is, it's a very good vaccine, a very safe vaccine, a very effective vaccine. And that's the message that we need to transmit, because right now there's efforts to implement catch-up vaccination campaigns among the kids and adults who have not even gotten a single dose. And we need those individuals to get vaccinated in order to reduce the impact of this epidemic.

WHITFIELD: So those 16 people who are hospitalized, what will be their experience in the hospital? How are they being treated? What are the medicines that they would likely be exposed to while hospitalized?

HOTEZ: Yes, I mean, I don't have any direct information about their hospitalization, but what you would look out for are primarily respiratory symptoms, because one of the things measles does, it can cause a very severe, it's called giant cell pneumonia, which is life- threatening.

So when children or adults ultimately don't survive measles, it's because of measles pneumonia. So that would be a reason for hospitalization, for respiratory monitoring, make certain they don't need into a more intensive care unit like setting or even require intubation. That would be one.

Also fluid losses because measles can cause severe diarrhea. So keeping up with hydration. Another aspect is measles can cause encephalitis and cause permanent neurologic damage, deafness, blindness. You know, as I like to say, measles is a bad actor. It's one of the most serious virus infections we know about.

In the 1980s, for instance, measles was the single leading killer of children globally. Three million kids died. Not through the GAVI Alliance, the Global Alliance of Vaccines and Immunization. We've brought that down to around 100,000 deaths, still a lot.

But it's just a reminder of how fragile the vaccine ecosystem is. And all it takes is to stop vaccinating long enough for a vaccine coverage to go below 90 percent. And then we can see a measles epidemic.

And that's what happened in Gaines County. That has one of the lower vaccination rates in our state of Texas. And it's like a hurricane going over a warm Caribbean ocean. It just ignites and spreads.

WHITFIELD: Well, it's important points that you made there that really is a gateway to other conditions, ailments, et cetera. This is really sounds like it's just kind of the beginning.

Dr. Peter Hotez, thank you so much.

HOTEZ: Thanks so much.

WHITFIELD: All right, coming up, heated town halls.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you can do it in a way that is humane.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And treats people with dignity and doesn't fire them on the spot. Their performance -- well, we don't know how hard this people work.

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WHITFIELD: Frustrated voters are airing out their concerns to congressmen over the Trump administration's massive cuts to the U.S. government. What this could mean for Republican support of Trump's agenda.

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WHITFIELD: All right, voters are taking to town halls to express outrage over DOGE cuts and perceived presidential overreach. While in recess, some Republican lawmakers returned to their districts to find angry crowds. They'll be returning to Washington next week after feeling the heat at home.

CNN's Gloria Pazmino is joining us now with more on all this. Gloria, I mean, is it the beginning of a larger potential political backlash? GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Fred, I think that's the most fascinating question about this whole thing, right? Whether or not we are going to see more and more of this criticism build up over the next several months. And we should mention that that fire that they're facing back in their home districts is both for Democrats and Republicans.

Democrats who are frustrated about the way that Democrats in Congress have been responding to the Trump administration and Republicans frustrated over layoffs and the power that DOGE appears to be exercising so far.

These have been happening not just here in New York, but also in Wisconsin, California, Texas, Maryland. We are seeing as congressmen go back to their districts and hold these town halls, voters really giving them an earful all across the country.

Take a listen to just one small sampling out of Albany here in New York, as well as Oregon.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have to take the gloves off. We can't wait for protocol. They're not playing by the rules.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'll just ask you, if you think that he's doing it right, and you would like all of your private records revealed and pulled up by a bunch of people that weren't elected who were just randomly appointed, a bunch of 20-year-olds. When I was in the service, there was a chain of command and we answered to somebody. I don't see any answering to anybody.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

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PAZMINO: So you can just hear that frustration there from the voter saying that these layoffs appear to be happening without much accountability and without giving too much thought about how it's going to affect how government and services are delivered. Now, we also saw similar reactions out of a district in Georgia, the seventh congressional district, and that was for Congressman McCormick.

He held a town hall in an area where Trump won by about 20 points, somewhat red district. But held it in an area where there was a lot of blue turnout in the last election. So he also got an earful. And this was a very contentious town hall. He had to stop and ask people to let him speak several times because he kept getting booed. He got a lot of questions about DOGE, about accountability and also layoffs happening at the CDC.

As you know, Fred, the CDC headquartered in Atlanta, about 20 miles from this district. He was asked a lot of questions about that. To answer your question from the beginning, will it result in a backlash? We'll see. I've heard from some people that are comparing this to the Tea Party movement that we saw back in 2009 over frustration about the health care bill. So we'll see if we see anything similar this time around.

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: All right, keep us posted. Gloria Pazmino, thanks so much.

All right. Coming up, a new proposal for ending the war in Ukraine. Next, a discussion on what the U.S. is proposing.

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WHITFIELD: All right, new today. Just hours ago, Hamas releasing the final group of living hostages under the first phase of the ceasefire agreement with Israel. A total of six were freed. Three of the men released were kidnapped from the Nova Music Festival on October 7th, 2023. The remains of four Israeli hostages were returned by Hamas earlier in the week, including the bodies of two children, Kfir and Ariel Bibas. With us now is Abbey Onn. She's an Israeli-American who had relatives killed on October 7th. Her cousin, Ofer Calderon, was released by Hamas earlier this month as part of the ceasefire agreement. Thank you so much for being with.

ABBEY ONN, COUSIN RELEASED BY HAMAS: Thank you for having me.

WHITFIELD: So I wonder if you can give me your reaction to today's hostage releases and the return of the bodies earlier in the week.

ONN: In so many ways, it really describes what it feels like to be Israeli. To go from the depths of sadness and heartbreak on Thursday when the children were returned, when we understood that they had been brutally murdered at the hands of Hamas, to get a coffin back that didn't have Shiri in it and to finally have her returned and confirmed dead, to have Oded come home, 84 years old, killed at the hands of Hamas and 36 hours later get living hostages home. We go from sadness to joy.

Omer Shem Tov is a hostage that lives in my neighborhood. He was one of three that were taken from the Nova that live nearby. And to see his parents finally hug him today is something that we're all waiting for, for 505 days.

WHITFIELD: Do you feel like you're reliving it, you're reliving your own family's experience every time there is a hostage release or a return of bodies?

ONN: Absolutely. It feels so hard and -- and yet so hopeful to wake up every Saturday morning knowing that somebody else is going to get that moment where you finally get to see your family member in this awful parade of the ceremony that Hamas is putting on. But know that within moments they'll be moved to the Red Cross and then back into Israel and that they'll get to hug their family that they haven't seen in so long. We can only hope that the second part of this deal continues and that the 24 that are alive come home to their families and that those families get this moment.

WHITFIELD: I want to play some -- play a statement now coming from the family of the two small children and mother, Shiri, Kfir and Ariel Bibas. Take a listen.

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OFRI BIBAS LEVY, SISTER OF YARDEN BIBAS (through translator): Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, we did not receive an apology from you in this painful moment. For Ariel and Kfir's sake and for Yarden's sake, we are not seeking revenge right now. We are asking for Shiri. Their cruelty only emphasizes the urgent need to bring Shiri back to us, save the lives of the living hostages and return all the fallen for burial.

President Trump, I'm asking you, please assist Israel and our family in completing this important mission.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: What are your thoughts on that? And is there a collective feeling or messaging going to Netanyahu that, you know, imposing revenge doesn't help all of the families receive some real affirmative security that they're going to get their family members or the remains of their family members back?

ONN: Look, I think there's a lot of anger toward Netanyahu. My family was murdered and taken from kibbutz Nir Oz, the same kibbutz where Shiri and her boys and husband were taken from. And Netanyahu has yet to visit Nir Oz. He's yet to step foot on these kibbutz where one in four were either murdered or captured. So I think there's a lot of anger. But I think collectively, as families of hostages, we understand that the only thing we can do is continue to fight until every single last hostage living and not come home and then figure out what's next. The fight is the more important piece, not the revenge, not the anger.

[12:40:20]

WHITFIELD: Are you worried that the ceasefire won't hold, that phase two won't get underway?

ONN: Of course. Thursday night buses were blowing up in Israel with what would have been a very coordinated terror attack that Hamas took responsibility for, which in many ways felt like trying to blow up this deal knowing that we had six living hostages coming home today. We live right now in a very fraught reality in which we -- we as family members of hostages and Israelis, and I think the entire Jewish world, want to make sure that every single hostage comes home. And our job is to keep the pressure on Netanyahu, on Trump, on -- on anyone that can help make this reality come true and -- and end this nightmare, 505 days of innocent civilians being kept in conditions that are beyond description.

WHITFIELD: Abbey Onn, thank you so much. We really appreciate your time. And of course, our continued prayers to your family and all the family members involved.

ONN: Thank you so much.

WHITFIELD: We'll be right back.

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WHITFIELD: All right. New developments today on the war in Ukraine. The U.S. is now proposing its own drafted plan to mark the third anniversary of the war. The U.S. is refusing to back a version drafted by Kyiv and supported by Europe. The U.S. version also does not condemn Russia as the aggressor or acknowledge Ukraine's territorial integrity.

Sources also now telling CNN that President Volodymyr Zelenskyy would not accept a deal with the U.S. over Ukraine's rare earth minerals and other natural resources. That agreement would give the U.S. access to hundreds of billions of dollars' worth of minerals critical for the development of electronics and computing. Yesterday, Trump told reporters that he believes there's progress on the deal.

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think we're pretty close. Yes. I think they want it. And they feel good about it. And it's significant. It's a big deal. But they want it. And it keeps us in that country. And they're very happy about it. But it's -- we get our money back.

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WHITFIELD: Joining us now is Michael Bociurkiw. He is a former spokesperson of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. Great to see you. So this resolution or -- or proposed draft from the U.S., what do you suppose the White House is trying to accomplish here?

MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, FORMER SPOKESPERSON, ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY & COOPERATION IN EUROPE: Good to be back on air with you, Fredricka. Well, it boggles the mind because part of what the U.S. wants, of course, is parroting what Mr. Trump said, you know, calling to question Ukraine's territorial integrity, basically referring to Mr. Zelenskyy as aggressor, this sort of thing.

But the deal that's also been reported on CNN is very lopsided in favor of the United States offering up to half a trillion dollars of stuff not only below the earth but on top as well, port infrastructure, that sort of thing. And there's no way any Ukrainian president can sign that sort of thing because the key thing missing there, of course is security guarantees. So if we give you all of these resources, which by the way, take a long time to dig up, and there is a war going on, we need your protection.

And I'll tell you where things are going, Fredricka. It's not very nice play. The -- according to Reuters and others, the U.S. if Ukraine does not sign this deal, is threatening to cut off Elon Musk's Starlink service for the Ukrainian military. That would be a game changer for the Ukrainian military. And by the way, the subscription isn't free. It's being paid for by Poland. But if they're doing things like that and if they may even go further, cutting off intel to the Ukrainians, they could even disable the Patriot missile defense system. So it's going to be very, very tough going, I think, over the next few days.

WHITFIELD: I mean, sources telling CNN that, you know, this rare earth mineral deal is just not of interest, you know, for Zelenskyy. I mean, what -- what are the Ukrainian people likely to be thinking right now that they're being asked or it's being proposed that they need to give up yet more stuff in order to, you know, end the war?

BOCIURKIW: Yes, well, I'm glad you asked that because what we have basically is a split screen reality. You have ordinary folks on the street I've talked to who say, no way, this is ours. And, you know, they'll remind Americans that a lot of the money that was spent on the war in Ukraine by United States remained in the United States in key states like Pennsylvania, creating wealth there, building weapons.

But what is really feared here is that yes, it -- it -- it will -- that this wealth that has been locked in the ground will go to the Americans and with little return. But I think one of the reasons we're in the situation we are is because President Zelenskyy, all down to the Foreign Chambers of Commerce, the American Chamber of Commerce and others have been touting Ukraine is open for business.

[12:50:01]

We have all of these minerals. And here's a pro tip for them all, never ever whisper within earshot of Mr. Trump, let's make a deal. Because once that got into his head, he wants to push this as far as he can.

WHITFIELD: Polish President Duda, you know, said he spoke with Zelenskyy ahead of this, you know, anticipated meeting today --

BOCIURKIW: Yes.

WHITFIELD: -- with Trump and he told the Ukrainian president that there is, I'm quoting now, there is no other way to stop the bloodshed and achieve lasting peace in Ukraine except with the support of the United States. Ukraine probably agrees with that. But how is it positioning itself, Ukraine, Zelenskyy, how is it positioning itself to try to get some peace of mind with a deal that is to promote peace for its country? BOCIURKIW: Yes, well, it's pretty difficult for Ukraine to do anything when everything seems a bit lopsided right now. I mean, last time I checked, when you're talking about reparations, it's usually after the war, the aggressor pays, not a fellow democratic state. That's number one. And number two is, you know, the front line European states such as Poland, the Baltic States realize that they could be next. And we've seen over the past few days the chaos, the division in Europe. There's an election in Germany tomorrow where support for Ukraine is on the table as well.

And there's a realization here that there's no way Ukraine can backstop what the U.S. has been providing. So I think at the end of the day, all of these leaders, including the Ukrainian ones, realize we have to keep the United States on side. But the feeling here is Mr. Trump just doesn't have the interest. In fact, they're actually withdrawing from some key institutions which help guarantee Ukraine's sovereignty. And for example, there's also report that the U.S. may pull out of a 40 nation coalition special tribunal to prosecute -- prosecute Russia for war crimes. It's head spinning set of developments.

WHITFIELD: All right. Michael Bociurkiw, you always great to see you. Thank you so much for coming back.

BOCIURKIW: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Coming up, an unprecedented purge of military leadership as the Trump administration fires America's top U.S. general. And more cuts at the Pentagon are on the way.

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WHITFIELD: All right. Pope Francis has now spent over a week in the hospital for his respiratory infection and people are beginning to worry and wonder, will he step down? His medical team says that although he is not at risk of immediate death, he is not out of danger. CNN's Christopher Lamb joins us now from Rome with details.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: I'm joined now by Gerard O'Connell, the Vatican correspondent for America and a very astute observer of all things in the Vatican. Gerry, what do you think about all the speculation in the papers in Italy about resignation?

GERARD O'CONNELL, AMERICA'S VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: I think it's unfounded speculation. There's no evidence to say the Pope is going to resign. The information we have from the Gemelli Hospital is that he's recovering. He himself has said that he saw the papacy, his election as election for life. He said before he went into hospital he had never considered resigning. He said, yes, there is the possibility. It's in -- in the church law for a Pope to resign. Benedict resigned, but I have never considered it. So I think there is -- this is speculation, wild rumor. There is no foundation for this truth.

LAMB: Now, the Pope may have a long convalescence period following his hospitalization. And in Rome, there is a Jubilee year, a huge moment for the Catholic Church. Only happens every 25 years. There's lots of events planned with the Pope. How's he going to manage if he -- if he can't get out and be amongst the people for these things?

O'CONNELL: Well, he's obviously when he comes back, he'll want to get back to work. But he doesn't have to be present at every event of the Jubilee year. Once in the history of the Jubilee, the Pope was in France. He was never here for the whole Jubilee. Another time, a few times, in fact, popes were outside of Rome for three, four months. In the whole 700 years of the Jubilee, only one Pope ever has opened the Jubilee and another closed it. So I expect Francis to come back, but perhaps limit some of the events. TAPPER: All right. Superman, everyone has imitated the legendary superhero, but what about the man behind the cape? The BAFTA winning film for best documentary, "Super/Man: The Christopher Reeve Story," chronicles the life of actor Christopher Reeve, both before and after the accident that left him paralyzed from the neck down. Using never before seen home videos and personal interviews. It's a story that truly proves that you don't need a cape to be a superhero.

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(END VIDEO CLIP)

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WHITFIELD: The BAFTA winning film for best documentary, "Superman: The Christopher Reeve Story," airs tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern right here on CNN.