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President Trump Dismisses Joint Chiefs Chairman General Charles Q. Brown; Pentagon Announces Plans to Fire Tens of Thousands of Employees in Coming Week; Constituents Criticize Congressmembers at Town Halls; U.S. to Propose Resolution to U.N. that Does Not Condemn Russia as Aggressor in Conflict with Ukraine; Measles Outbreak Grows to 90 in Texas; Laid Off Workers at Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Complain about being Misclassified in Recent Firings; FBI Accuses Woman of Drugging and Kidnapping Elderly Men She Met on Dating Apps; New Los Angeles District Attorney Likely to Deny Motion by Menendez Brothers for Retrial; Vatican States Pope Francis Suffered Respiratory Crisis; Journalist who Covered Pan Am Plane Explosion over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988 Interviewed on His Experience. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired February 22, 2025 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:00:53]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Hello again, everyone. Thank you so much for joining me this Saturday. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

And we're standing by for President Trump to speak at CPAC, the conservative political gathering underway right now in Maryland. And as we await that speech, we're also following major developments at the Pentagon. President Trump has fired the highest-ranking military officer in the country. On top of that, thousands of Pentagon employees are expected to be fired next week. In a late-night media post, President Trump announced the dismissal of General Charles Brown. He was the second black man ever to serve as the most senior military leader. Along with Brown, Trump fired vice chief of air force and the first woman to serve on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, a sign of the administration's attempt to eliminate leaders appointed by former President Joe Biden and those who support DEI initiatives. CNN's Oren Liebermann starts off our coverage.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: This is an unprecedented purge at the top of the military, one that's been rumored and speculated about for weeks now. It started with President Donald Trump announcing on social media that he was firing the top U.S. general, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, General C.Q. Brown. Trump said that Brown was a, quote, "fine gentleman." Brown had been a frequent target of rightwing criticism, and there had long been speculation that he was going to be fired quickly. We just didn't know quite how quickly. Now we have that answer one month into the Trump administration. Now, just days before he was picked to run the Pentagon, Defense

Secretary Pete Hegseth said Brown should be fired along with the other, quote, "woke" generals and admirals. But at least for the time, the two had worked together, having daily or near daily meetings. In fact, Brown was visiting the southern border just hours before he was fired. Trump immediately announced his pick to replace brown, recently retired air force lieutenant general Dan "Razin" Caine. Trump has long had a fascination with Caine, bringing him up in several speeches over the last four or five years. He says Caine was instrumental in the defeat of ISIS.

Trump hinted at more firings to come, and it was only a few minutes later that Hegseth announced the chief of the Navy, Admiral Lisa Franchetti, was also being terminated. Hegseth called her a DEI hire in his book that came out last year. In a Friday night statement, Hegseth also indicated that the top judge advocates general in the Army, Navy and Air Force will also be replaced. That, too, is an extraordinary move. The JAGs, according to a former judge advocate general, are the conscience of the military, the guides on what's right and what's wrong, what's ethical and moral. Hegseth called them JAG-offs in his book, and questioned their value.

Taken together, these firings are an unprecedented reshaping of the top of the military.

Oren Liebermann, CNN, in Washington.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right, Oren, thank you. The Pentagon firings don't end there. It has announced plans to fire tens of thousands more employees with the next round of firings happening next week. CNN's Betsy Klein is joining us live from the White House with more on this. Betsy?

BETSY KLEIN, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE PRODUCER: Well, Fredricka, as Oren just laid out, sweeping changes to the very top levels of the U.S. military leadership. But also, we're expecting significant cuts to impact the Pentagons civilian workforce. Now to get into the numbers. There are about 950,000 civilian employees at the Defense Department, and we are expecting about -- a first tranche of about 5,400 civilian employees. This impacts probationary workers who do not have mission critical roles.

But the civilian employees do things like research, analysis. They are also teachers who educate our service members children abroad. They build things for the U.S. military. Ultimately, we do expect these cuts to be much bigger and impact about five to eight percent of the Pentagon's civilian workforce, according to sources. So just doing the math there, that is between 47,000 and 76,000 total cuts. Now, the Pentagon budget makes up about 14 percent of U.S. annual spending. So clearly, President Trump moving quickly here to cut that federal spending.

[14:05:01]

But for his part, the president said in a post to social media earlier today that Elon Musk, whom he dispatched to really spearhead some of this cuts to federal spending, needs to, quote, "get more aggressive." But so far, we are starting to see some signs of skepticism from Americans at Trump's plans to really dismantle federal programs. So in a latest CNN polling, 51 percent of respondents say Trump has gone too far, 32 percent say it's about right, 17 percent say Trump has not gone far enough. And we are also starting to see some initial signs of blowback facing lawmakers who are back in their districts, facing constituents who are very concerned about the extent of these federal cuts, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Betsy Klein at the White House, thank you Thanks so much.

All right, voters are taking to town halls to express outrage over DOGE cuts and perceived presidential overreach. While on recess, some lawmakers returned to their districts to find angry crowds.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tyranny is rising in the White House, and a man has declared himself our king. So I would like to know, rather, the people would like to know what you, Congressman, and your fellow congressmen are going to do to rein in the megalomaniac in the White House.

REP. RICH MCCORMICK, (R-GA): When you talk about tyranny, when you talk about presidential power, I remember having the same discussion with Republicans when Biden was elected.

(SHOUTING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Lawmakers will be returning to Washington next week after feeling the heat at home. CNN's Gloria Pazmino is joining us now. Gloria, is this just the beginning of lawmakers hearing from their constituents?

GLORIA PAZMINO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It certainly seems that way. And we'll see how much longer the backlash extends for. And we should say that the fire that they're facing back at home is bipartisan. Some Democrats are also getting criticism. The video you saw there is of Republican Rich McCormick. He represents Georgia's seventh congressional district, and he got a lot of criticism during that town hall, specifically from constituents asking about the Department of Government Efficiency, DOGE, but also about the mass layoffs that have happened in recent weeks, also about federal budget cuts, and about whether or not the congressman was going to do anything to kind of stand up to Trump.

Now, we should mention that this district was an area that Trump won by about 20 points. But the neighborhood, the area where the town hall was held, is a little -- tends to lean more towards the Democrats. Take a listen to other voters that have been speaking out. This has been happening across the country, Fred. This is not just in Georgia, but also in Texas. Here in New York, Hawaii, we've seen several town halls that are being held as these lawmakers go back home. And take a listen from some of the voters in Wisconsin.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you going to subpoena him at some point?

REP. SCOTT FITZGERALD, (D-WI): The end result of the fraud and abuse that has been discovered already --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How can we be represented by you if you don't have a voice in Congress?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PAZMINO: So that was Congressman Scott Fitzgerald in Wisconsin. And a lot of the voters at that town hall had questions about Elon Musk. The gentleman there asking if he was going to use his subpoena power to bring Elon Musk into Congress and ask questions about what he has been doing. And you could see just how much reaction he got when he said that so far, the waste that has been found was a good thing that government was doing.

So the question is, as you said, Fred, how much of this backlash are we going to continue to see in the next several months, particularly as lawmakers travel back to their districts? And are we going to see any of that reflected back in what they do once they are on the Hill, right? That's the other big question.

Some people I've spoken to about this so far, Fred, they have mentioned part of what we saw back in 2009, a similar backlash which eventually gave birth to the Tea Party movement. So the question here is, if we are beginning to see something like that starting here with this much criticism and grief that some of these voters are speaking out and making sure that their representatives are hearing.

WHITFIELD: All right, Gloria Pazmino, thanks so much.

All right, coming up, what will Ukraine's response be to a U.N. resolution proposed by the United States that does not condemn Russia and does not acknowledge Ukraine's territorial rights?

Plus, the measles outbreak in Texas grows to 90 cases, the largest outbreak in 30 years.

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[14:14:43]

WHITFIELD: All right, an update now on Pope Francis's condition. According to a statement released by the Vatican's press office, he developed an asthmatic respiratory crisis this morning and remains in critical condition. They also noted that he is in more pain than he was yesterday.

[14:15:00]

The statement did go on to say that he continues to be alert and spent the day in an armchair.

All right, Monday marks three years since Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and now the Trump administration is hoping the U.N. will accept a U.S. draft assessment for that anniversary instead of a European-backed statement. CNN has seen that new U.S. resolution, and it does not condemn Russia as the aggressor in the conflict. It also does not make any acknowledgment of Ukraine's territorial integrity, stopping far short of the European resolution, which calls for the immediate withdrawal of all Russian forces.

This latest back and forth comes as the White House puts increasing pressure on President Zelenskyy to agree to give the U.S. access to Ukraine's critical rare earth minerals in exchange for continued U.S. military support.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is live for us in Kyiv. So, Nick, what more are you hearing about any potential deal making?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, I mean, look, it's important to stress that the deal that appears to have been put initially in front of Ukrainian, officials here, is one that isn't about future support or security guarantees. It's one that entirely addresses past aid given by the Biden administration. So essentially trying to forgive or repay what the Trump administration considers to be a debt on behalf of Ukraine here.

Now, there have been multiple reporting over the past hours or so suggesting officials coming forward saying that maybe there might be committees formed on Monday or there might be closer to some kind of deal at this point. We've been hearing from an official familiar with the negotiations, suggesting that the current formulation of the deal is not one that is acceptable to the Ukrainian presidency, and even questioning why they would be asked to repay through mineral and resource debts more money than it has at this point cost for Ukraine to defend itself.

So a lot of back and forth here, but a U.S. official I spoke to separately suggesting that much of this should be cast differently, because essentially, if this deal is agreed, it allows the United States to be less dependent on China for some of its rare earth minerals, which they believe are in abundance here in Ukraine. And it also incentivizes the United States to be much more invested in the defense of Ukraine, if indeed, they are receiving some kind of natural resource benefit as a result.

So this, it seems, going down to the wire here, but we also heard back on Friday from another Ukrainian official, the notion that this is increasingly urgent. And I think it's fair to say, given the preponderance of discussion around all the people we're speaking to around this, that the entire U.S.-Ukrainian relationship really hinges on whether this deal is signed by now, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: And Nick, you also have some new reporting about Russia's troops on the front lines. What's going on?

WALSH: Yes, there's been a manpower squeeze, it's clear on the Ukrainian side, but many have been asking exactly where Russia's manpower situation falls given the fact they appear to have obviously a much larger population and a huge tolerance for pain. Well, there's increasing evidence that we've seen from videos posted from the frontline by Ukrainian soldiers fighting Russian soldiers, some posting videos of Russians who are clearly wounded, that they are, in fact using wounded Russian soldiers and putting them back on the front line again to try and fight in battle.

And that's evidenced by some images that show Russian soldiers on crutches, and then also pictures shown that we received from outside a hospital for the Russian military wounded that show a man who's clearly wounded, who says on camera that he is being sent back towards the front lines. This apparently is something that's come up in the last six months as Russia has desperately tried to fill its ranks again. Often, Russian assault forces are used simply to storm Ukrainian positions en masse. And so, potentially, you might argue that the condition of those soldiers is less relevant if they're able to move forwards. But it's a stark reminder of the extraordinary pain that Russia appears willing to inflict on its own people or our own soldiers to achieve minimal gains on the battlefield, Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Nick Paton Walsh, thank you so much.

All right, coming up, back in this country, the measles outbreak in Texas grows to 90 cases, making it the largest in 30 years. And the numbers are expected to rise. Dr. Sanjay Gupta has a new report.

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[14:24:00]

WHITFIELD: All right, welcome back. An urgent situation in west Texas and New Mexico, where there are now nearly 100 confirmed cases of measles. The outbreak growing by 32 cases on Friday alone. Most of the infected are children and unvaccinated. Dr. Sanjay Gupta spoke to doctors on the ground in west Texas to get a firsthand look at the challenges they are facing in this growing outbreak.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So many of the people who get infected with measles, who get sick, need to be hospitalized, are children. So we're here at Covenant Children's, and I want to give you an idea of how this works over here. Somebody pulls up even before they go inside the hospital, they'll actually get evaluated in this shed out here. They want to determine if someone actually has measles. They need to be put into personal protective gear and then taken inside the hospital.

DR. LARA JOHNSON, CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER, COVENANT HEALTH LUBBOCK SERVICE AREA: We've had over 15 patients admitted here in our children's hospital with measles over the past several weeks.

[14:25:00]

GUPTA: Dr. Lara Johnson is the chief medical officer here. How do you even begin to approach? As a patient comes in, what do you,

what do you do for them?

JOHNSON: Most of the patients who've been admitted have had respiratory issues. They've been needing supplemental oxygen and respiratory support to help them get over the viral pneumonia part that we see with measles.

GUPTA: It's one thing to treat these patients on the ground. But the key in the middle of a measles outbreak is to try and prevent more cases from occurring. That's really challenging given how contagious this is.

Appreciate it, hey, how are you doing? Nice to meet you. How's it going? That's the kind of the reaction we're getting.

DR. JENNIFER SHUFORD, COMMISSIONER, TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF STATE HEALTH SERVICES: Freezing weather and measles outbreaks.

GUPTA: Doctor Jennifer Shuford is the commissioner for the state health department.

What do you think the next weeks and months is going to look like?

SHUFORD: I think that we're going to continue to see cases. And what the next few months look like kind of depends on how effective we are at getting messaging out about making sure that people get vaccinated, that they stay at home if they're sick, and really trying to push that message through really trusted community leaders.

GUPTA: You and I have been doctors for some time. I think me a bit longer than you, but have you ever seen measles before?

SHUFORD: No. And I'm an infectious disease physician. I've never diagnosed a case.

GUPTA: That's incredible.

SHUFORD: It's because, you know, measles was declared eliminated from the United States back in the year 2000 because of the effectiveness of that vaccine. And it's only now with falling immunization rates, not just here in Texas, but across the country and around the world, that we're starting to see more of these outbreaks.

GUPTA: Now, while most of the cases have been in a closeknit, rural Mennonite community, worry has started to spread.

Hello, how are you doing? Hey, I'm Sanjay.

AMY GANDY, PARENT OF IMMUNOCOMPROMISED CHILD: Amy.

GUPTA: Nice to meet you. You, too. How's it going?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Owen.

GUPTA: Hey, Owen. AMY GANDY: Owen was a micro-preemie, so he spent the first 102 or 103

days in the hospital. And since then, you know, with his weakened immune system and everything that he went through, we just don't know how he would handle the measles.

(MUSIC)

GUPTA: Amy and Eric Gandy have lived in Lubbock for 20 years.

ERIC GANDY, PARENT OF IMMUNOCOMPROMISED CHILD: And the good thing about it is Riley really likes getting shots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I don't.

(LAUGHTER)

GUPTA: Now both their kids, 11-year-old Owen and nine-year-old Riley, are vaccinated. But that's the thing about outbreaks. Low vaccination rates can put vulnerable people in danger.

ERIC GANDY: I mean, it's really, I think it's time that everybody, like, takes a look just at your political reasons or your religious reasons and kind of think about that group of people and, the new or the old information about vaccines, and really take a deep look into what it is that you really believe and why you really believe that.

GUPTA: You just set this up. When outbreak is happening, you say --

DR. RON COOK, LUBBOCK HEALTH AUTHORITY: Set is up this week.

GUPTA: DR. Ron Cook is with the Lubbock Health Authority.

COOK: Weve got plenty of vaccine, but we just need people to come get it.

GUPTA: And are people coming in?

COOK: They did, 13 yesterday, 23 yesterday.

GUPTA: Twenty-three, OK.

How would you describe what's going on here?

COOK: We have pockets that are not well-vaccinated. But these individuals like in in Gaines County down there that that come to shop here, we have Costco and Sam's and Wal-Marts and they come here to do big shopping on the weekends. And they bring their kids, and they walk through Costco, or they walk through these big shopping centers, and then they're exposing these people.

GUPTA: It's why they believe this outbreak is likely to continue for weeks, if not months, and why every shot here will make a difference.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Lubbock, Texas.

(END VIDEO TAPE) GUPTA: All right, coming up, federal workers are facing cuts and uncertainty across several agencies. CNN's Rafael Romo reports on layoffs of workers at the CDC.

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[14:34:03]

WHITFIELD: All right, mass firings are spreading across several federal agencies. Next week, the Pentagon plans to cut 5,400 probationary jobs. CNN's Rafael Romo has been keeping an eye on the job cuts affecting the CDC. He's joining me right now. What are employees at the CDC telling you about whether they've been given notice or worried about getting notice?

RAFAEL ROMO, CNN SENIOR LATIN AMERICAN AFFAIRS EDITOR: There's a lot of fear. There's a lot of confusion. People not knowing really what's going on or where to go. Where can they call to ask for help? And we were talking the first week after the layoffs, how it was very difficult to talk to some of these employees. But this past week it all changed, Fred, because they are now speaking out. And there was a rally outside the CDC earlier in the week. Yesterday there was another rally at the state capital. And some of the things that we heard from these employees are very similar. Some of the complaints that they have are that they have been misclassified. They have been sent letters of termination where they are not specified exactly what's going on.

[14:35:06]

Let me share with you some of the complaints that these employees have. One common complaint we heard was that those impacted had little to no information. Mistakes were made in the termination letters, misclassification of employees. There was one employee who had been working at the CDC for 10 years, and he was misclassified as a probationary worker. And also, the question that they have is whether these terminations were wrongful. This is what one of the workers told us about what he had to go through. Let's take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EMAAD HASSAN, PUBLIC HEALTH ADVISER: I reached out to H.R. several times. H.R. is aware of the issue, they just don't want to talk about the topic. They're petrified. They're fearful. So its created this environment where everybody is fearing retribution, or a sense of that from the administration.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: We also had a conversation with another employee who was indeed a probationary worker. She said that her reason for being terminated, the reason she was given was that she had a poor performance, but she was so new, Fred, to the CDC that she hadn't even had a performance review yet. This is what she had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SONYA ARUNDAR, HEALTH COMMUNICATOR: Theres a lot of confusion. Theres a lot of fear. We don't know. There are rumors that there going to be more layoffs. Managers are hesitant to assign tasks because that person may not be there next week or next month. We don't know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROMO: Responding to the complaints earlier this month, Elon Musk, who is running the Department of Government Efficiency, said the following. Quote, he said "The people voted for major government reform, and that's what people are going to get." We also heard from Democrats in the state legislature who said that even though this should not be a partisan issue, it goes beyond that, Fred, because they say it is affecting the people of Georgia, not only in their pocket, but also in terms of health as well as all Americans.

WHITFIELD: Widespread. All right, Rafael Romo, thank you.

All right, coming up, the FBI accuses a woman of drugging, kidnapping, and taking advantage of elderly men that she met on dating apps. Police say she even took one of them out of the country. Details straight ahead.

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[14:42:01]

WHITFIELD: Today, a woman who the FBI says is behind what it calls a romance scam on steroids is now sitting in a Mexican jail. Authorities say Aurora Phelps met older men online dating apps, then saw them in person, and then drugged them to steal thousands of dollars from them. And in one case, the FBI says she drugged a man in a wheelchair, taking him across the border. CNN's Julia Vargas Jones is joining us right now at. One of these victims, or alleged victims, died as well, Julia?

JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Fred. Look, she is facing dozens of criminal charges. Now, that includes kidnapping and wire fraud, after she lured these older men into dangerous and deceitful romantic encounters. Like you said. She's Aurora Phelps, 43, of Las Vegas. She is accused of using Tinder, Hinge, Bumble, and other dating apps to target these lonely older men and then drugging them and stealing their money, their assets. The FBI says that this went on for over two years, with at least four victims, actually. Three of them died, and she is charged in one of those deaths. She used prescription sedatives to incapacitate her targets, which allowed them to -- allowed her then to empty out their financial accounts.

At the press conference yesterday, the FBI called this, like you said, a romance, a scam on steroids. But they also said that they hadn't seen one as nefarious and sinister as this one in recent memory. Take a listen to more details.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPENCER EVANS, FBI LAS VEGAS, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE: The two were residents of the state of Nevada when they encountered Phelps and were drugged by her. We believe Phelps kidnapped one of these victims by heavily sedating him and pushing him across the U.S. Mexico border in a wheelchair due to his inebriated state.

Phelps then took him to a hotel room in Mexico City, where the victim was found dead a few hours later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JONES: Now, this is a very familiar M.O., isn't it, Fred, just exploiting someone's vulnerability. After establishing this romantic connection, authorities said that she tried to withdraw cash from these people's bank accounts, used their credit cards to purchase luxury items, and even solid gold, and tried to use their Social Security and retirement funds.

She is in custody in Mexico. Those charges add up to 21. And if she is convicted of all of those, she could face life in prison. Now, important to say the FBI continues searching for more victims. So those who think that they or a loved one might have been a target of this are encouraged to come forward. Fred?

WHITFIELD: An ongoing investigation. All right, Julia Vargas Jones, thank you so much.

All right, after serving more than 30 years in prison for murdering their parents, Erik and Lyle Menendez are seeking a retrial request. However, the new Los Angeles district attorney might stand in the way of their wishes. Here's CNN's Nick Watt.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A local election in Los Angeles might have sealed the fate of the Infamous Menendez brothers, keeping them in jail for the rest of their lives.

[14:45:07]

Back in October, L.A.'s progressive D.A. said this.

GEORGE GASCON, (D) FORMER LOS ANGELES COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: I believe that they have paid their debt to society.

WATT: George Gascon agreed with the brothers' request to be resentenced, which could ultimately have seen them walk free. But Gascon was trounced in that November vote, and his successor, who won with a tough on crime message, today sang a very different tune in regards to their other request, which is for a retrial.

NATHAN HOCHMAN, DISTRICT ATTORNEY, LOS ANGELES COUNTY: They come out with two new pieces of evidence, one piece being an undated photocopy of a letter purportedly sent by Erik Menendez to his cousin.

WATT: In that letter, Erik alludes to alleged sexual abuse at the hands of their father, Jose, which the brothers say led them to fear for their lives and brutally murder Jose and their mom, Kitty, at the family's Beverly Hills mansion.

HOCHMAN: It is not credible evidence. We have not been presented with the original. We have not been presented with an envelope with a postmark.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know what he did to me in his house.

WATT: The second piece of allegedly new evidence, testimony from a former boy band member who appeared in a Peacock documentary claiming that Jose Menendez, a record executive, had also raped him.

HOCHMAN: We will prosecute sexual abuse in any form it comes. But sexual abuse in this situation, while it may have been a motivation for Erik and Lyle to do what they did, does not constitute self- defense.

Among the many cases we have worked on have been the case of people versus Erik and Lyle Menendez.

WATT: The D.A.'s office even released their own mini-documentary to explain why they will recommend that a judge reject the brothers' request for a retrial.

But what about that other request?

HOCHMAN: We have not made a decision on the resentencing issue. We're still in the process of not just analyzing the trial evidence but analyzing the rehabilitation and all the other evidence that's required in a resentencing motion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please rise.

WATT: The brothers have spent roughly 35 years behind bars. Their elderly aunts believe that's enough.

JOAN VANDERMOLEN, SISTER OF KITTY MENENDEZ: I do want them home. What can a kid do when his father is -- oh. I can't stand it.

WATT: Obviously, the D.A.'s input is critical here, but ultimately, whether the Menendez brothers get resentenced or a retrial, that will be up to a judge.

There's one more wrinkle. Their last hope is to appeal to the governor of California for clemency.

Nick Watt, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: All right, coming up, a journalist who covered the Pan Am Lockerbie plane explosion that killed hundreds of people joins me to discuss his reporting on that investigation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:52:50] WHITFIELD: All right, we're following breaking news on Pope Francis. The Vatican now saying he suffered a respiratory crisis earlier today and remains in critical condition. CNN's Christopher Lamb has the update.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: A concerning update from the Vatican on Saturday evening about Pope Francis's health. The Vatican saying that Francis is still in a critical condition and that on Saturday he had a prolonged asthmatic episode which required high levels of oxygen. They also said the Pope's platelet count was low and that he needed blood transfusions.

Today the Vatican said the Pope was sitting in a chair. He was alert, but he was in more pain than yesterday. The Pope, who is 88 years old, is in hospital battling pneumonia in both lungs. He's been in hospital since last Friday. Francis will not be leading the Sunday Angelus Prayer from the Gemelli Hospital. And it's not clear how long he is going to remain in hospital. Doctors who treat him said on Friday that the Pope is still in a critical condition but is not in immediate danger. Both doors are open, they said. Clearly, it's a concerning situation and the Pope's health remains very fragile. We're expecting more updates from the Vatican in the coming hours.

Christopher Lamb, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

WHITFIELD: When Pan Am flight 103 exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland, it happened just days before Christmas in 1988. Investigators and journalists all then descended upon the small town to uncover the mystery behind the plane crash. It was revealed the crash was caused by an explosive device killing 270 people. The tragedy brought global attention to the tiny town of Lockerbie and sparked a decades-long investigation, and it's still going on today.

Joining us right now to discuss is a journalist who was on the ground in those initial days of the investigation after the tragedy happened on December 21st, 1988. He is now a "Bloomberg" investigative reporter. Did I get that right? David Kocieniewski is with us now.

[14:55:00]

OK, so, but at the time, in 1988, were you working for "The Detroit News"?

DAVID KOCIENIEWSKI, "BLOOMBERG" INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST: Yes, I was working for "The Detroit News, and, you know, the flight, which had begun in Frankfurt and stopped in London, was ultimately headed to Detroit. So, um, 14 Michigan residents were among the victims, and we were sent there to help let people know what had happened to their loved ones.

WHITFIELD: What were your impressions when you got there? Again, this happening just days before Christmas. It was December 21st, which was the explosion. And then you, like many journalists, were dispatched right away. So what did you find when you got to Lockerbie?

KOCIENIEWSKI: You know, it was really this kind of clash of worlds. Lockerbie is this beautiful, idyllic town, like something out of Dickens with cobblestone streets and hedgerows and stone fences and sheep. And all of a sudden, it finds itself suddenly and horrifically thrust into the middle of a terrorist investigation and a disaster. Here's this lovely town of rolling hills and sheep fields, and there would be literally body parts of victims hanging from street signs. And there was a golf course where there were dozens of bodies because the plane had exploded at 31,000 feet, and it littered debris and remains of the deceased all over 100-mile area. But most of it was in Lockerbie.

In addition, Lockerbie was victimized. There were -- the fuselage hit in a neighborhood there called Sherwood Crescent, this beautiful stone houses, and left a crater about 40 feet deep. There were 11 Lockerbie residents who were killed and some whose bodies were never recovered.

WHITFIELD: Oh my gosh. I mean, take me back also to, you know, initially it was just mysterious. How is it that this plane would just explode at 30,000 feet, as you put it, in midflight? At what point did it start to look like this was an act of terror?

KOCIENIEWSKI: It was about the second day. There was a sense, word started to circulate in town that it was some sort of sabotage. I think some of the wreckage, the way it was found, there was charring that investigators thought was consistent with some sort of explosive. And very quickly, they found the voice recorder, the cockpit recorder. And there had been a little sound right before it went dead that was consistent with a bomb.

The other thing that was odd about this very quiet, idyllic, peaceful town being thrust in the middle of this is there had been prior warnings in Finland and another one in the U.S. calls threatening a plane crash somewhere in Europe, or an attack on a plane. And there were groups that were taking responsibility for the crash. It turned out those were groups who had nothing to do with it, but there was a lot of tension in the Middle East. I mean, at one point, the Israeli prime minister blamed the U.S. for having -- reopening contact with Palestinian groups and said that's what caused it.

In the end, it was a Libyan group. Libyans who were involved and had nothing to do with it. But in that kind of moment of terror and of a lot of confusion, people are willing to kind of throw anything they can at the wall. And in a small town like Lockerbie, which is a corner, a beautiful corner of the world, people were just kind of dazed.

WHITFIELD: What was it like trying to extract information from people? A lot of times, you know, tragedies on a massive scale and especially talking about very small town, people may not really want to be as forthcoming or talk about it to journalists who just comes out of nowhere. At the same time, I spoke with a few family members who lost loved ones, who said the town of Lockerbie was just amazing. I mean, they just wrapped their arms around many of these victims' families, and they just felt so indebted to them. What was it like for you trying to navigate, talking to people, getting information, gathering information?

KOCIENIEWSKI: I think, Lockerbie, I think Hemingway once said that courage is grace under pressure. And that's what Lockerbie, the residents there showed. They were very welcoming to people, even though they're dealing with this horrific tragedy in their own, literally their own backyards and front yards, lost loved ones and neighbors. They were very helpful with media, helpful with families.

And there was a bit of a cultural difference in the way people handled things. You know, some of the victims I wrote about, people from Michigan came over to view the site where their loved ones were lost and wanted to view the remains. There was one doctor who lost four people, two young children, his wife and his in-laws. I'm sorry, he lost five people. He went, he came over, made the 4,000 mile trip. And at first the Scots met him. They gave him all these pamphlets about grieving, but they wouldn't let him view the remains because it's a little bit more reserved culture. He kind of prevailed upon them, and as a doctor was given the right to see it. And I'm sure it was just a heartbreaking and gruesome scene.

But the Scots were very accommodating to everyone. And I think the sadness is it was about Christmas. It was right before Christmas. And, you know, some people took their Christmas --