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Elon Musk's Ultimatum, Federal Employees Have Until Midnight to Explain What They Did Last Week or Face Dismissal; Top Trump Officials Decline to Confirm Russia Started War in Ukraine; Today, Trump Hosts French President Macron at White House. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired February 24, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Elon Musk's ultimatum, federal employees have until midnight to explain what they did last week or face dismissal. But multiple agencies are bucking his threat, telling their employees not to respond, at least for now.

Plus, a key ally is warning President Trump's one on one meeting with Emmanuel Macron. The French president says he will tell Trump you can't be weak in the face of Putin. This as key members of Trump's administration waffle on the truth that Russia invaded Ukraine, which is a fact.

And later, a $500 billion for U.S. facilities and 20,000 American jobs, what is behind this massive Apple investment?

Well, good morning to you. You are live in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Pamela Brown in Atlanta.

14 hours, that is how long federal workers have to justify their jobs to Elon Musk or potentially risk losing them. Employees received an email over the weekend telling them to describe the work they did last week by midnight Eastern. Musk took to X to warn that failure to respond will be taken as a resignation, even though that wasn't in the actual email.

But leaders at several agencies, including the FBI, are pushing back and telling staffers not to reply, and that is notable because, obviously, some of these are people that Trump himself put into these positions.

CNN's Rene Marsh joins us now. Rene, so much confusion over this email, I know I was hearing from federal workers over the weekend. Which departments are telling their workers not to respond?

RENE MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, as you said, the FBI, Department of Homeland Security, State Department, the Pentagon. As you can imagine many of those workers have sensitive issues that they are working on and putting out bullet points within an email of what they've been working on for the past week. It clearly is outside the chain of command at these agencies. And so in those cases, those employees have been told to hold on this request from Elon Musk.

Of course, this email came after the president said over the weekend that he wanted to see Elon Musk getting more aggressive with the cuts to the federal government. Then you saw this email come out to all of the federal workers. I've heard one scenario of friends of mine who were in Chipotle and actually saw the moment when two federal workers received the information on their email address. And many of them just kind of mouth wide open. First of all, many federal workers are not even required to check work email over the weekend.

But in speaking with unions, they say that this just amounts to harassment. So, we are expecting some legal pushback on this, Pamela, even Republican lawmakers, some of them have questioned the legality of what Elon Musk's team is asking for here.

But, really, back to this issue of how the unions are seeing it, this idea that this is really harassment, you're talking about a workforce that is not even sure if their jobs are going to stay or go, whether they'll lose their job. There's a segment of the workforce who's already on paid leave and does not have access to their I.T. systems, their work phones and their work emails. And then there is a set of employees who have been fired.

So, there's a lot going on. Let's talk about the mental health part of this. There's a lot of stress that these employees are undergoing. And that might really be the point here of making it so uncomfortable to work within the federal government that these individuals choose to leave on their own.

All that said, we do expect Pamela to, as this deadline approaches of 11:59 P.M. this evening, we do expect to hear that there will be some legal. pushback, namely from the unions who are saying that this is just not how you go about it and it's just not legal.

BROWN: And we have a guest just like that coming up.

Rene Marsh. Thank you so much.

I want to bring in Doreen Greenwald. She is the president of the National Treasury Employees Union.

Bottom line, how do you view this email?

DOREEN GREENWALD, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL TREASURY EMPLOYEES UNION: Thank you for having me. Once again, this was an email that was sent out by OPM directly to employees. And it hit on the weekend, and it hit to all mailboxes, including supervisors and executives within each of the federal agencies.

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It hit without anybody knowing what it was intended to do. And so it sent everybody scrambling to first figure out is it even a true email, and, second of all, how should employees respond?

And so it really caused a lot of unnecessary chaos over the weekend. As your prior guest said, most federal employees don't have access to their government email during the weekend. Many of the agencies that we represent, such as Customs and Border Protection, they're on the job working throughout the weekend and often don't have access to their email. People at the National Park Service may not have access to Wi-Fi. It caused a lot of questions for people who may be on leave and how they were supposed to respond or if they were supposed to respond.

So, we've been pushing back at agencies to get clarification on what their expectations are because, again, OPM does not have direct line authority for these employees, and they're used to addressing the chain of command.

BROWN: So, what are you hearing back? You said you're seeking clarity. Have you heard anything back? And what are you advising these employees to do right now?

GREENWALD: Well, it's been a shift throughout the weekend. Initially, we heard from some agencies that required employees to respond. They later pulled that back to say that they would respond on behalf of the employees. Some agencies are waiting and have asked people to pause until noon today. So, we're still waiting on additional information.

And, again, employees report to their chain of command. The chain of command knows exactly what employees are working on. They are the ones who assign their work duties. They track their leave. They track their time. So, this email just caused a lot of confusion for really no purpose because there are management chains in place to address these things.

BROWN: Early this month, you also advised federal workers not to accept the Trump administration's buyout offer. Did you find that a lot of employees took that invoice advice? What are you hearing as you speak to them?

GREENWALD: So, employees continue to be confused by these odd emails that are coming directly to them. And so what we've heard and what has been reported in the media is that around 2 percent of the people took that offer. We advised against the offer because it really has no guarantees within it. The documents requested employees to waive all their rights and gave the government complete discretion. And so if anything is not lived up to as offered, the employee has no recourse.

And so we believe employees did follow our guidance. Many employees were at a position where they could retire anyway. And so they said, well, I will throw my hat in the ring. But that was not the bulk of employees.

BROWN: Obviously, so much of this is unprecedented. And as you know, some Americans are really applauding this. I mean, in their view, they're watching this and they're saying, finally, you know, we are helping to look at the government, clear it out, clear out the waste and so forth. What do you say to those Americans who are applauding this effort?

GREENWALD: I'm disappointed because I think they need to check the facts. First of all, the federal government is doing the work that Congress has asked it to do federal employees come to work their assigned duties based on their skill, knowledge and experience, and they're delivering for the American people.

The federal workforce is less than 1 percent of the total federal budget and somehow federal employees have been vilified as the problem behind what aches this country. Everybody agrees that there could be efficiencies. They should be working with federal employees to identify areas where things could be improved and save money. Instead, what has happened here is we have the federal government who Congress passed the budget. Each agency addresses its mission. It hires the people that it needs to do that mission. And without any input from the agencies themselves, they've gone forward and stop the hiring. They have taken away probationary employees, which were key to meeting the agency missions and they've sent just a shockwave through the entire civil service system.

So, this is not a matter of saving funds in any way. It's about disrupting the services of government.

BROWN: To follow up with you on this quickly, I want to get your reaction to this meme that was posted by President Trump over the weekend appearing to mock federal workers being threatened with this deadline. As you see right here on the screen, it features SpongeBob SquarePants and implies that responses from workers justifying their jobs might include things like crying about Trump or reading some emails. If you could say anything to the president right now, what would it be?

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GREENWALD: I would say as the commander-in-chief, you have a civil service of federal employees who come to work every day to do and serve the American people. They are not your enemies. They stand ready to work with you. And I would encourage him to work with the federal workforce so that he has the force available to him to accomplish his goals.

BROWN: Doreen Greenwald, thank you.

I want to discuss more now with Democratic Congressman Sean Casten of Illinois. Congressman, thanks for being here. How do you view what's happening right now with federal employees in the government?

REP. SEAN CASTEN (D-IL): I'm deeply offended, and let's just take this at three levels. Number one, what the last guest said is absolutely right, this is a violation of labor contracts, labor law. We should say no.

Number two, from a national security perspective, what possible good comes from asking people who are doing classified work to report through an unsecured email server what they were doing last week, which is why the secretary of defense, the head of the NSA, the head of the FBI have all told their employees not to comply?

Number three, purely from a managerial perspective, I want people who are listening to imagine that you got this email tomorrow from your boss's, boss's, boss's boss, who knows nothing about what you do, who is essentially telling every intermediary that they are doing a bad job. This would be like Tim Cook sending that email to every single Apple store employee. If Tim Cook did that, we would say Tim Cook is past his due date and doesn't know how to run a company anymore. That's the issue right now.

So, my strong advice to all of our federal employees is you took an oath to the Constitution, you took an oath to your country, you did not take an oath to this sun-downing and incompetent person running the White House.

BROWN: I'll ask you what I asked to read. I've been hearing from people all over the country in response to this. We've seen some of these town halls with members of Congress where they've gotten a little rowdy and there has been backlash. But there's also been some constituents there of different members of Congress who are applauding this and they're enthusiastic about what's happening with the federal government right now. What do you say to those Americans?

CASTEN: Well, I can tell you, having done a town hall of myself last weekend, there is tremendous fear There is tremendous anger. There was nobody who came up to the town hall and said, can you please allow Elon Musk to steal more information from the Treasury, can you please allow Donald Trump to break our government down more? I think we need to be careful not to confuse the volume of some of the noise on social media with the number of Americans who are deeply concerned about this right now.

Are there people who misunderstand how the federal government works? Yes, there are. And I think that's the result of both elected officials and certain media outlets who have somehow demonized the idea that we want good people running our air traffic control system. We want good people running our military. We want good people in our CIA. Telling those people that they are valueless unless they provide, you know, sort of office space level TPS reports, you might as well be carrying out Russian foreign policy.

BROWN: That's interesting. And you said you just had a town hall recently. I wonder, as a member of Congress, have you ever seen the kind of response to what is happening in Washington like you have seen with this from your constituents?

CASTEN: So, when Elon Musk and his and his crew hacked into the Treasury payment system, we received more phone calls in that week than I have received on any topic in my six years in Congress. We did a town hall the next day because we wanted to sort of make sure that we were addressing these. We did it with 24 hours notice on the telephone. We had 30,000 people who dialed into that town hall. This was with 24 hours notice on a town hall that took place at 1:00 on a Thursday.

People are really angry. People understand the stakes of this moment. And I would just remind everybody that the vast majority of Americans, regardless of who they voted for, are not under any illusions about whether Russia is our enemy, are not under any illusions about whether the good guys won the Civil War, are not under any illusions about whether competition in a meritocracy is the right way for us to grow. And as long as those good people are making their voices heard, we're going to be okay. But people are understandably afraid right now.

BROWN: I want to follow up on Russia. You mentioned that a couple of times. Today marks three years since Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Some of the Trump administration's top officials were asked if Russia started the war. Let's listen to how they responded.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But, fair to say, Russia attacked unprovoked into Ukraine three years ago tomorrow.

PETE HEGSETH, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Fair to say it's a very complicated situation.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all can agree that nobody wants to see a bully win and win more territory. Can you acknowledge that Russia is the aggressor here?

MIKE WALTZ, TRUMP NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, you know what? Who would you rather have him go toe to toe with the likes of Vladimir Putin, Kim Jong-un, Xi, or anyone else? Joe Biden or Donald Trump? He's the dealmaker-in-chief.

STEVE WITKOFF, SPECIAL ENVOY TO THE MIDDLE EAST: The war didn't need to happen.

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It was provoked. It doesn't necessarily mean it was provoked by the Russians.

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BROWN: Congressman, what do you think is going on here?

CASTEN: Why is the Republican Party parroting the talking points of the Russian government? I mean, these are Russian propaganda points. It is insane to say that when Russia invaded Crimea, when they invaded again, that Ukraine was the aggressor?

I would also point out that when we provided aid to Ukraine, we decimated the Russian army without putting one American's life in harm's way. We provided military assistance, we provided intelligence. As a result of that, we strengthened the post-World War II order. Finland, Sweden, who had long been not in NATO, made a path to join NATO because they understood the existential threat created by Russia. In 35 days, Donald Trump, with the acquiescence of the Republican Party, has undone that.

And I wish I could say I'm surprised because when we voted on the floor to provide aid to Ukraine, the majority of my Republican colleagues voted against that package. It passed overwhelmingly. It was overwhelmingly bipartisan, but the majority of the Republicans voted against that aid. Why they are carrying out Russian foreign policy is a question we need to ask very closely, but it's scary.

BROWN: So, to follow up with you, what if the strategy here is, look, in order to get Vladimir Putin to come to the table to agree to any peace deal, we have to sort of appease him? We don't want to poke the bear. You know, if we blame him for the invasion and criticize him too much, then he will never come to sign on to a peace deal. But maybe this approach he would. And if this ends the war, this strategy, this approach, what would you say?

CASTEN: Why can't the United States president show the same kind of leadership that Volodymyr Zelenskyy showed, right? If you are intimidated by Vladimir Putin, you should not be the president of the United States. What we did in the last term to stand up to Putin, as I said, it strengthened NATO. We provided sanctions that crippled the Russian economy. We are on the way to actually making sure that we drastically weaken the only other country with the ability to blow up the entire world with nuclear weapons.

This is the existential threat to the United States. If you find it hard to stand up to Vladimir Putin, then, by definition, you are incapable of being in a position of leadership in the United States, representing the United States' interests. To talk about this as saying we need to bring an end to this war, we don't want war, but they took land from Ukraine. If Ukraine says the war is over, the war is over. Telling Ukraine we are going to force Russia to take that land says we're going to get rid of the entire post-World War II order.

BROWN: There's a senior Ukrainian official also telling CNN that a deal to give the U.S. rights to minerals in Ukraine is in the, quote, final stages. It's unclear if the U.S. will provide any security assurances to Ukraine in exchange. Initially, that wasn't part of the deal. What do you think about this? Do you think this approach could help resolve the conflict? You've heard some of Donald Trump's officials in the administration say Russia doesn't like this deal at all.

CASTEN: I would rather see long-term peace with a partner in Europe than a short-term extraction contract to make a few bucks.

BROWN: All right. Congressman Sean Casten, member of the House Financial Services Committee, thank you so much.

CASTEN: Thank you.

BROWN: Right now, French President Emmanuel Macron is in Washington for a meeting with President Trump in a critical call with G7 leaders as Ukraine marks three years of war with Russia.

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BROWN: New this morning, French President Emmanuel Macron arrives at the White House on an urgent mission, shore up the Trump administration's unraveling support of Ukraine, and remarkably, the western alliance. Macron's visit comes as other leaders from Europe and Canada arrive in Kyiv to mark a grim milestone. It was three years ago today that Russian forces poured into Ukraine in an illegal invasion that galvanized Western allies.

Today's show of solidarity is overshadowed by a growing rift between President Trump and Ukrainian President Zelenskyy. Trump has falsely accused him of being a dictator and even starting the war.

CNN's Nick Payton Walsh is in Ukraine's capital Kyiv. Nick, as Ukraine marks three years of war, how much concern is there about Trump's clash with Zelenskyy and what it means for the fight against Russia?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, you know, there's been an extraordinary show of solidarity behind President Zelenskyy, 13 world leaders attending here in Kyiv. It's a day's long train journey to get here. Many others joining virtually as well. But, frankly, the key thing that stood out the most is the absence of a senior American delegation here.

The Biden administration would be leading the annual show like this in the past and is now left to Canada's Justin Trudeau, other European leaders to put on that show of support. Billions pledged, the British suggesting over a Zoom call, that they would contribute troops on the ground in the event of a peacekeeping force being needed if the conditions are correct and the U.S. provided logistical support.

But, really, it's a horrific week that we've had over the past seven days in which the relationship between President Trump and President Zelenskyy clearly deteriorated significantly and that has many concerned about what that may mean for future U.S. aid.

Here's what Zelenskyy had to say when I asked him if he could fix that.

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WALSH: Do you think you can mend your relationship with President Trump? And, secondly, have the American side spelt out to you what happens if you don't come to an agreement over this rare earth minerals deal, in terms of what it means for U.S. aid?

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VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: As I said, we want successful agreement, and if we will understand each other with partners, I hope that it will be. We will sign the first agreement.

My relationship with President Trump, it's never was in such best way.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALSH: Awkward laughter there, but a very harsh reality that that acrimonious week has essentially left much of the key plank of Ukrainian support, military and financial, in doubt until those two men somehow, it seems, find a rapprochement.

BROWN: It's also demanding a Ukrainian mineral deal as well. What are you learning about that?

WALSH: Yes, that has been the hot topic, really, the bone of contention, the thing without a resolution of which it seems so much in terms of Trump administration's support for Ukraine is in doubt. Now, we understand that a draft of that deal has been finalized and the Ukrainian side have sent it to the Americans, waiting for an American response, according to a Ukrainian source familiar with the negotiations. But this source describes it as a framework for Ukrainian reconstruction.

Now, fairly, I think that's a bit of a positive spin upon what the Trump administration has been asking for. But this Ukrainian source is clear that some of the worst issues for Ukraine have been taken out. Zelenskyy yesterday was talking about half a trillion dollars being the initial ask from the Trump administration in terms of reimbursement for what he said was grants. He denied the notion that Ukraine was somehow in debt.

But, the source tells us too, the security guarantees that Ukraine so urgently wants, they're not in that deal. And it appears that this essentially will be some sort of framework umbrella statement about the intent to have deals, the technical details of which the real cut and thrust, the ugly stuff will be dealt with in separate documentation. The hope being that security guarantees might be something that Trump and Zelenskyy can discuss themselves as its Ukrainian source. No date for that, no necessary agreement on that, but I think the hope that somehow they can heal this relationship.

BROWN: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you.

And new this morning Apple announcing a 500 billion investment in U.S. facilities. Is this a tactic to avoid new tariffs or a good faith effort to boost the U.S. economy or both? That's next.

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