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Interview With Former U.S. Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta; Elon Musk to Attend First Trump Cabinet Meeting. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired February 26, 2025 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:58]

ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Good morning. It is the top of the hour here in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Erica Hill in New York.

And we are keeping a close eye on the White House at this hour, President Trump set to host the first Cabinet meeting of his second term. Also set to be in attendance, Elon Musk, who, of course, you see him there, just a few moments ago making his way over to the White House. He, of course, is not a Cabinet member, was not vetted or approved by Congress.

He's making his way there, of course, from the Old Executive Office Building over to the White House in that video. His attendance at the meeting yet another sign of his influence in the Trump administration. The presence, though, of the world's richest man at today's meeting already ruffling a few feathers.

CNN's Alayna Treene and Mark Preston join us now.

So, Alayna, to you first.

In terms of this Cabinet meeting, Elon Musk's presence ruffling a few feathers. What do we expect to come out of it?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Well, there's a few things.

One is that I did talk with a White House official about what I can -- we can expect for the agenda today. They told me essentially that this is the president's first official Cabinet meeting. It's really an opportunity for them to touch base, walk through their priorities, their agenda items, but also make sure, as they refer to it, that they are rowing in the same direction.

But, of course, the big a big question mark around this is, what will Elon Musk's role be at that meeting? It's clear, of course, how influential he is. He's one of the most influential people in the Trump administration, despite not being Senate-confirmed, despite not being a Cabinet secretary.

I think one key thing to look for is actually the seating arrangements in there today. Normally, you will see the Cabinet secretaries all seated around the table with the president. You often have top advisers, senior advisers kind of lining the room. So where Musk is in all of this will give us even more insight into that influence and his role here, especially when you account for the fact that optics are so important for this president.

One other thing as well, just to give you a sense of who we have already seen kind of entering the West Wing, because we know this is kicking off this meeting any moment now, we have already seen secretaries Burgum, McMahon, Bondi. Musk is not a secretary, but we saw him walking in with Bondi. Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Tulsi Gabbard, Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio, and Vice President J.D. Vance all entering.

So this is going to be starting shortly. But, again, one key thing I will be watching for, Erica, is who exactly -- who is sitting where and what the dynamics are in that room.

HILL: Yes, absolutely.

I mean, one of the things that stands out is, I can't help but think back, Mark, to the first, first Cabinet meeting in the first Trump administration, which was a little bit different I think than what we're used to seeing in these in these moments, where it was sort of a going around and praising Donald Trump.

I'm curious to see what it will look like in this moment, also because of a tweet that -- I shouldn't say a tweet -- a TRUTH Social post from the president earlier today where he wrote in all caps: "All Cabinet members are extremely happy with Elon. The media will see that at the Cabinet meeting this morning."

I'm not sure if that's a directive to the Cabinet to be happy to see Elon or what this means. How did you interpret that, Mark?

MARK PRESTON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, isn't it wild that the president of the United States communicates with his closest advisers through X -- forgive me -- I say Twitter or TRUTH Social. Whatever he did it through, he did it publicly, as opposed to having these private conversations with them.

You know, Erica, I do think sometimes we are caught up in the process of Elon Musk not being Senate-confirmed. The reality is, he has the influence, he has the power. We have seen President Trump sent out a tweet in support of Elon Musk even earlier today.

Look, and also the fact is these Cabinet secretaries, they can express all the anger they want. But at the end of the day, they're still going to have to go up against Elon Musk, and Elon Musk is very close to President Trump.

Now, I warned this the other day and I would warn this again, is that Elon Musk is Donald Trump's closest ally until he's not his closest ally. And I think that Elon Musk is -- could be flying too close to the sun, but we will see what happens.

HILL: Yes, we saw Puck call this perhaps Elon's Icarus moment in terms of reference of flying too close to the sun.

[11:05:04] PRESTON: Right.

HILL: There is some frustration though, Alayna, among Cabinet officials.

I know you have some reporting about how a number of them were actually caught off guard by this e-mail directive from Musk over the weekend to federal employees. What more do we know about that? Because the press secretary is saying, oh, no, everybody's working in concert together. All the Cabinet secretaries are working very closely with Elon Musk. Clearly not.

TREENE: Oh, right.

I mean, this has been a key question, Erica, is whether or not the authority that we have seen Elon kind of be given the power, the influence and the types of decisions that he is making, whether or not it is grating on Cabinet officials.

And I spoke with several Trump administration officials, White House officials yesterday, people who are privy to some of these conversations, and they admit privately that some of these Cabinet secretaries, one, as you said, were caught off guard by that directive that he issued last week saying, send five things in that you did to all government employees and if you don't respond you could have your employment terminated.

But it's the way in which he's carrying out some of these moves. I think there's no question as well that many people in the Trump administration and these Cabinet secretaries agree with the president and Elon Musk that maybe there is bloat in the government, maybe they should be looking at waste, fraud and abuse, but it's the way in which he is carrying that out, that chain saw approach, that kind of cut and ask questions later approach that is beginning to really frustrate some of these secretaries, I'm told.

A lot of it is because we know that some of them were just sworn in. Some of them haven't even been -- or haven't had their Cabinet votes yet, their confirmation votes yet. And so they still need to assess what their agency needs are and who they might want to keep or cut in their agencies. And they want that to be under their power.

And so that's where some of this really stemmed from, I was told, Erica.

HILL: And, Mark, when we look at that too, there's the Cabinet level, but then there's -- there are lawmakers, right, who are weighing in, maybe not as publicly, although we did hear a little bit from Senator Tillis talking to Manu about how they feel in terms of Elon Musk's involvement and perhaps the speed at which he is moving forward with things.

Is that starting to have a broader impact in Washington?

PRESTON: Yes, look, when we started -- we started to hear -- we know that Congress is back home right now, so we know that constituents are telling their lawmakers -- you are starting to hear this drumbeat of anger against Elon Musk.

But what's interesting is, you're not necessarily hearing from House members who are more susceptible to Donald Trump primarying them, running someone against them if they don't fall in line behind him than, say, United States senators, who have six-year terms.

So that's why you see in U.S. senators like Lisa Murkowski or Susan Collins who have come out, both Republicans -- who have come out and expressed their anger about Elon Musk.

But I will say one thing about this Cabinet meeting which I think is going to be fascinating, two people that we should be looking for and see how they act. One, of course, is J.D. Vance, because he is supposed to be the number two for President Trump. So, as Alayna was talking about earlier, let's see what the dynamics of where J.D. Vance is.

And, number two, let's see what Doug Burgum, what his role is today in going forward, Doug Burgum, somebody who actually talked a lot about overhauling the federal government. I actually had conversations with him when he was running for president just as we were just sitting around talking about policy issues.

And Doug Burgum was somebody who really wanted to go in and try to transform the federal government. So he's somebody who quietly could be doing a lot of work right now behind the scenes. We just haven't heard much from him.

HILL: All right, we will be watching for all of that.

Alayna, Mark, stick around, as we wait for this to begin.

I also want to bring in though, Leon Panetta, who, of course, was defense secretary, CIA director under President Obama, also served as chief of staff under President Clinton.

Good to see you, as always.

As we wait for this event to begin, I'm curious. Mark just said who he's sort of looking at in this moment. Who are you watching most closely in terms of these Cabinet members as this administration really begins to take shape in its first month?

LEON PANETTA, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, look, the role of the Cabinet has changed in the last number of years.

There was a time obviously when the president used to quietly sit down with the Cabinet and really develop policy with them, allow them to speak, really become advisers to the president.

In many ways, what happens at these Cabinet meetings is essentially a press event, in which the press goes in, the president delivers a message, everybody kind of says great things about what's happening. And that's it. So I will be interested to see whether or not this really becomes a Cabinet meeting in which the Cabinet is able to truly express their views to the president, because that's why they're there.

And that's what the president needs.

HILL: Secretary Panetta, stay with me as well.

We're going to continue to drill down on this. We're going to fit in a quick break here as we wait for this Cabinet meeting to begin.

Stay with us. You're watching CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:14:32]

HILL: Well, as we wait for President Trump's Cabinet meeting to begin, which is expected to start in any moment, I want to pick up our conversation with Leon Panetta, who, of course, has served in a number of capacities in the U.S. government, including chief of staff under President Clinton.

Secretary Panetta, you were saying before the break how Cabinet meetings have changed over the years. In many ways, they become more of a photo-op, where they used to be more about discussion, exchanging of ideas.

I'm curious. Given the way that the current president prefers to surround himself with people who agree with him, right -- we know a loyalty test, for lack of a better word, is very important to President Trump. Do you anticipate that this is a meeting that will be perhaps a substantive discussion, a sharing of ideas?

[11:15:14]

Or is it more about showing public agreement with the president?

(LAUGHTER)

PANETTA: Well, I really hope that it's a meeting that gives Cabinet members the opportunity to really speak up and present their views to the president.

That's what the president needs. He needs to hear from his Cabinet. They are one team. Look, they can do the press event. The cameras will come in. They will all talk about the great things that are going on. And that's understandable.

But once those cameras leave the room, they ought to close the doors and allow these Cabinet members to express themselves. Look, they're confirmed by the Senate. They have a responsibility to their departments and agencies and to the people who operate within those departments and agencies.

Elon Musk is not confirmed by the Senate. He is an adviser. But he doesn't have that same kind of responsibility. I think it would really be a healthy thing if they could have an exchange within this Cabinet meeting that expresses the concerns that we're seeing about how people are going to be treated in this administration.

HILL: Well, and, specifically, some of those concerns, as our own reporting, Alayna Treene just at the top of the hour talking about her reporting about the concerns of some of these Cabinet secretaries about that e-mail from Elon Musk that went over the weekend to federal employees, many of them in their own departments, that they had no knowledge of.

I'm curious as well. When Susie Wiles was announced as the chief of staff, there was a lot of praise for her and an expectation that she would really bring discipline to a second Trump term, maybe keep some of the fringe voices in the orbit at a distance.

You have served as chief of staff. So far, is that what you see playing out in terms of the way she is handling this role?

PANETTA: Well, it's obviously less than a month. It's hard to make any kind of judgment at this point as to how that's going.

But I really do think that it's the responsibility of a chief of staff to make sure that everybody is on the same message and that things are not happening that are chaotic and disruptive. So you need to know, she needs to know what Elon Musk is up to. She needs to know what Cabinet members are up to, because it's important for her to know in order for her to be able to inform the president of the United States and maintain order.

A White House does not operate well unless there is discipline, and she has to be the disciplinarian.

HILL: In terms of discipline, it's been remarkable to me about how much of, I don't want to say the authority, I don't think that's the right word, but just how much control in some ways it feels like Elon Musk has been given.

And the president really seems to be all in, seems to be very happy with him, even when there's some pushback over the last number of days about that e-mail over the weekend, President Trump basically saying, hey, he's got my blessing. This is the way it needs to happen.

Are you surprised at all that he has maintained such a level of seeming control and decision-making as an adviser?

PANETTA: Well, again, what concerns me is that what you don't want in an administration are lone wolves or loose cannons that basically decide to do their own thing.

I understand Musk's role. He obviously is important to the president in terms of what he's trying to do. But, very frankly, if Musk is going to operate as an adviser to the president, then, in the very least, he has to advise the White House as to what he's up to. He can't just operate in his own sphere. He can't operate outside of the boundaries of White House discipline.

He's got to be brought under control, so that he is alerting the White House to the steps he's taking to try to accomplish the goal that the president obviously gave him. But there has to be order here. And the more chaos, the more disruption, the more surprises that take place, let me tell you, the weaker the White House becomes.

HILL: Oh, to be a fly on the wall once the cameras leave in that meeting once the doors are closed as to whether perhaps that would come up.

Secretary Panetta, always appreciate your time. Thank you.

PANETTA: Good to be with you.

[11:20:00]

HILL: We are going to continue to follow this Cabinet meeting, of course, which we are waiting on it for -- on it to begin. A live shot of the White House there.

We're going to fit in a quick break as we wait. Stay with us. You're watching CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HILL: We are, of course, waiting on the start of the first Cabinet meeting for President Trump since his return to office. We have seen a number of secretaries leaving the Executive Office Building, walking over to the White House.

[11:25:02]

The meeting today will also include Elon Musk, of course, not a Cabinet secretary or even a Senate-confirmed member of the administration. The billionaire, however, could be the most important and most influential voice in that room.

Joining me now is Vittoria Elliott, power and platforms reporter for "Wire."

Vittoria, it's great to have you with us.

As we look at the role of Elon Musk here, Puck News today calling the Cabinet meeting his Icarus moments, suggesting maybe he's flying too close to the sun, while, at the same time, you have the president posting on TRUTH Social: "All Cabinet members are extremely happy with Elon. The media will see that at this Cabinet meeting this morning."

I'm not sure if that was a directive to appear happy or not. Where does Elon Musk stand? At this point, it seems the president is very happy with him.

VITTORIA ELLIOTT, POWER AND PLATFORMS REPORTER, "WIRED": You know, I think that remains unclear.

What I will say is that our freelancer who we work with Jake Lahut reported a couple weeks ago that there definitely are people in Trump's close orbit, sort of the long-term MAGA people, who are uncomfortable with the amount of power and access that Musk appears to have.

But Trump himself has said multiple times that he is backing Musk's decision 100 percent, that he trusts him and his expertise. So I think, at the end of the day, the reality is that Musk is making some of the calls that are otherwise pretty unpopular. And Trump doesn't have to make them.

Trump is insulated from some of both the really hard work of making the federal work force basically a shrinking the federal work force. And then on top of that he's able to sort of delegate it to an incredibly loyal supporter.

HILL: Yes, it's such a great point. He doesn't sort of have to take the incoming if that happens, right, because he's not ultimately doing it. In many ways, it's Elon Musk.

I was struck by -- so there were some questions about why Elon Musk would be in this meeting, which Karoline Leavitt addressed just a short time ago. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Well, Elon is working with the Cabinet secretaries and their staff every single day to identify waste and fraud and abuse at these respective agencies. And you have seen many of these Cabinet secretaries, all of the Cabinet secretaries take the advice and direction of DOGE.

So all of these Cabinet secretaries are working alongside DOGE. They will be providing updates on their efforts, and they will also be providing updates on what they're doing at their agencies in terms of policy and implementing the promises that the president made on the campaign trail.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: I was struck by her comments there, Vittoria, because she talked about how they're working alongside Elon Musk and DOGE.

And yet we know from CNN's own reporting that a number of them were really caught off guard by Musk's e-mail ultimatum to federal employees. How close is it -- based on your reporting and your sources, I mean, how close are they actually working together?

Or is it just in some ways finding out about stuff the way the rest of us do?

ELLIOTT: I think that's kind of unclear.

What I think we do know is that DOGE has very quickly spread its tentacles across multiple government agencies. And, definitely, we're seeing this sort of pattern of trying to access sensitive data, trying to access payment mechanisms and payment systems, as we saw with USAID and Treasury. So I think the big thing is that I don't actually think she's wrong. DOGE is operating across all of these agencies. And whether or not they're necessarily operating fully copacetically or transparency -- transparently with each agency's leadership, the fact remains that there are DOGE teams in every agency or at least several agencies and probably over time every agency.

And so I do think this sort of idea that, well, it makes sense that these people should be meeting with Musk. Now, does that necessarily mean that Musk should have this kind of power as an unelected person who is not even the administrator for DOGE?

That's an entirely separate question. But on a logistical level, meeting with the person who's calling the shots on your agency's sensitive data might be a good call.

HILL: There were a lot of questions about who the administrator of DOGE is. We did learn from the White House yesterday it's Amy Gleason who's the acting administrator. Do we know much about her?

ELLIOTT: She's kind of kept a low profile.

And, definitely, my colleague Makena has reported substantially on USDS. And I think even people within USDS were unsure of who the DOGE administrator was. But it does seems that she's someone who people are at least familiar with, who they -- has -- as much as she's come in sort of from -- with the DOGE side, that she's someone that people are familiar with.