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President Trump Prepares to Greet Ukrainian Leader Zelenskyy; Judge Says, Mass Firings of Probationary Workers Likely Unlawful; 911 Audio Released in Gene Hackman's Death. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired February 28, 2025 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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PAMELA BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Volodymyr Zelenskyy heads to the White House soon. President Trump will host the Ukrainian President just days after falsely calling him a dictator and blaming him for Russia's invasion.

Plus, suspicious enough for an investigation, why officials are now digging deeper into the death of Gene Hackman, his wife, and dog.

And then later, Vice President J.D. Vance, Mark Zuckerberg, both claiming that modern masculinity is under attack. But what does that really mean? And is there a connection between modern masculinity and mental health? We're going to discuss with two experts ahead.

Good morning to you. You are live in the CNN Newsroom on this Friday. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington.

The price of partnership. Right now at the White House, President Trump is getting ready to welcome Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. At the top of the hour, they'll hold a high stakes meeting and then sign an agreement on natural resources and the reconstruction of the war torn-country.

It follows a week of tense exchanges with Trump blaming Zelenskyy for the war and even calling him a dictator repeatedly. Well, now he says he doesn't recall that, but today there are hopes for a more conciliatory tone.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I think the president and I actually have had a very good relationship. It maybe got a little bit testy.

REPORTER: Mr. President, do you still think that Mr. Zelenskyy is a dictator?

TRUMP: Did I say that? I can't believe I said that. Next question.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: CNN's Kevin Liptak is at the White House. Kevin, so the U.S. and Ukraine have agreed to terms on this deal. How significant is this meeting for both men?

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: It's absolutely pivotal. You know, I don't think it's overstating things to say that Volodymyr Zelenskyy, when he arrives here in an hour from now, is essentially making the argument for the future of his entire country to a counterpart who, at best, has seemed skeptical of his intentions, but at worst has seemed openly hostile. So, the stakes really could not be higher.

This mineral deal that the two men will sign while Zelenskyy is here is really meant to kind of put U.S.-Ukraine ties on stable footing. It does amount to a win for both of the men, and Donald Trump's telling it is essentially back payment for years of U.S. assistance to Ukraine, but it does not contain any future financial commitments, it doesn't contain any future security guarantees, which is part of why Zelenskyy balked when he first received this deal from Trump's treasury secretary.

Now, in the telling of American officials, this will provide insurance of its own type, essentially saying that if the U.S. and Ukraine are so financially intertwined that Russia will not want to go back into Ukraine. But that is not the type of security guarantee that Zelenskyy is hoping for. It's also not the type of security guarantee that the Europeans who are saying that they will send their own peacekeepers to Ukraine want to see from the United States. So, this will be an important thing for the two men to talk about.

Now, we did hear a warmer tone from the president heading into this meeting about Zelenskyy, but I think it was his comments about Putin that were so alarming, essentially a credulous assessment of the Russian president. Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I think he'll keep his word. I think he's -- I've spoken to him. I've known him for a long time now. We had to go through the Russian hoax together. That was not a good thing. It's not fair. That was a rigged deal and had nothing to do with Russia.

I don't believe he's going to violate his word. I don't think he'll be back. When we make a deal, I think the deal's going to hold.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIPTAK: Ultimately, it is that trusting attitude towards Putin that has left so many Europeans, so many Ukrainians anxious about what is coming.

BROWN: Yes. And also, Kevin, you have some new reporting on Trump's next executive order. What are you learning?

LIPTAK: Yes, this is interesting, and I think it could be taken as sort of an extension of his hardline immigration agenda. He will be signing an order today designating English as the official language of the United States. Throughout the course of American history, there's never been an official language, and what this order would do was essentially rescind some previous guidance to agencies that they were to help non-English speakers with some of their services.

[10:05:11]

They will still be allowed to do that, but they won't be mandated to do it.

Of course, Donald Trump has said on the campaign trail, talked about other languages coming into the United States as part of his sort of talk about immigrants. This will, I think, be an extension of that, and we'll see him signing that later today.

BROWN: All right. Kevin Liptak, live for us from the White House, thank you.

Let's continue this conversation with Chief National Security Correspondent Alex Marquardt and CNN Military Analyst and retired Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton.

Alex, to kick it off with you, so President Trump has been trumpeting this as a potential trillion dollar deal, but there's this catch because there are widespread doubts of Ukraine even holding massive rare earth deposits and other mineral health -- wealth, I should say. What more can you tell us about this?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, the bottom line is we don't really know what Ukraine has. There are estimates, there are maps that show minerals, both critical minerals, which are more mainstream and the rare earths all over the country, but a lot of that data, I'm told by current and former officials, as well as energy experts, is really outdated. A lot of these maps, a lot of that data comes from the Soviet era and hasn't been updated in a long time.

This was something that the Biden administration also looked at because it was President Zelenskyy who came up with this idea. He pitched it to both the Trump and the Biden teams last September. And I spoke with some senior Biden administration officials who told me that they essentially dismissed it or didn't pursue it because it was seen as impractical. One official also called it colonial in its approach.

It's clear that President Trump likes the idea of a deal, but what I've been told by these officials and experts is most of what is perceived to be the most significant or have the most potential is actually in the eastern part of the country where there's some of the fiercest fighting. So, it's in contested areas where there's a lot of unexploded ordnance or mines, and a lot of it is in the Russian occupied areas. So, that, of course, is going to be very difficult to get out of the ground.

And then some of the more mainstream things like lithium, graphite, titanium, that is in accessible areas. Ukraine doesn't actually, on a global scale, have significant reserves of that. We've heard President Trump talk about rare earth minerals. According to the U.S. Geological Survey, Ukraine actually has zero proven reserves of rare earth minerals. So, when they actually go in and try to mine this stuff, this takes years, decades off, and billions and billions of dollars.

And so that's why I think, Pamela, we're not seeing a lot of detail in this deal. It does appear what's being signed today is more about striking a deal than the actual specifics of what could happen in the coming years.

BROWN: Yes, it's all very opaque right now. And the reason why is probably what you just laid out, Alex.

Colonel, to go to you on this, just taking a step back, of course, the mineral deal is a big focus today, but this comes as Zelenskyy's own country really hangs in the balance. And this meeting with President Trump is so critical because he needs President Trump. He needs the backing of the United States for his country to essentially survive, right?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, that's absolutely right, Pamela. And as Kevin mentioned in his reporting from the White House, this is very crucial for Ukraine. In essence, what Zelenskyy is looking at is finding as many guarantees as possible, given the constraints that he's facing for the security of his country.

We know that Russia's goal is to eliminate Ukraine as a sovereign nation. They have stated that outright, and they continue to have that war aim. Whether they achieve it this year or next year is almost immaterial to Putin, but it's still a goal that they have. So, Zelenskyy is looking at ways to counter that Russian war aim.

And what he's trying to do is really put himself and his country in a position where others will be forced to help him. Whether it's the Europeans with forces, peacekeeping forces, stationed there, whether it's the United States with this mineral deal, no matter -- whether or not there are actually rare earths in Ukraine. So, these are the kinds of things that Zelenskyy is looking at, and what he wants to do in this case is he wants to make sure that there's a tangle, tangled web of alliances that protects his country.

BROWN: And President Trump says that he trusts Vladimir Putin to abide by a potential peace deal. Obviously, Putin has not been known to stick with international agreements. Colonel, how can the Russian leader be trusted?

LEIGHTON: Well, that's really going to be the big question, Pamela, because the Russian leader has shown many times that when it comes to moves into places like Ukraine or Georgia or other places around his periphery, he is going to do what his aims are. He's basically pretty honest about what his goals are if you look very carefully at what he says.

[10:10:01]

But when it comes to these kinds of things, you really cannot be trusted. It kind of evokes the moments, you know, back in the early 2000s when President Bush and other leaders, you know, saw that they could deal with Putin. And, in some ways, they could, but there always are other aims there and the relationships of course have quickly soured and now Trump is trying to improve those relationships.

BROWN: Colonel Leighton, Alex Marquardt, thank you so much. And we'll be talking a lot more about this meeting this morning, obviously, as we await the arrival of President Zelenskyy about 50 minutes from now.

And still ahead, suspicious enough to warrant an investigation, what the Santa Fe Sheriff is saying this morning about the deaths of Gene Hackman and his wife.

And next, as more federal employees are finding out today, they no longer have a job, a judge is putting a pause on mass firings, though, at some agencies. Where things go from here, that is the big question, next.

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BROWN: Well, this morning, more sweeping cuts of the federal workforce, this time at NOAA. Sources tell CNN that 800 agency employees have been tapped for terminations with more firings possible today. But a federal judge has now granted temporary relief for some of the organizations fighting President Trump's dismantling of the government. He ruled that the mass firings of probationary federal workers is likely unlawful, writing, quote, the Office of Personnel Management does not have any authority whatsoever under any statute in the history of the universe to hire or fire any employees but its own.

CNN's Rene Marsh joins us now. Wow, this judge did not mince words. What is the immediate impact of the decision?

RENE MARSH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, this judge specifically blocked the Department of Defense from firing probationary employees that they were planning to fire this Friday, which is today. But really, Pamela, it's unclear what the full impact is going to be on the thousands of probationary employees at other agencies who have already been fired.

What this ruling really did was essentially state that OPM does not have the authority and overstepped its authority to essentially instruct these agencies to fire or how to manage their own workforce. And that's what the judge was saying in that quite interesting quote here, it's quite forceful quote here, where he says there is no statute in the history of the universe in which OPM has the authority to hire or fire employees other than their own.

But at the heart of this was this February 14th memo that essentially OPM told these agencies to identify employees who were not considered essential and send separation letters to these individuals. These probationary employees are people who have been on the job for less than a year.

Now, the Trump administration's lawyers argued that we made an ask. We didn't force these agencies to do this. The judge was not buying that. However, the judge did acknowledge that agencies themselves do have the right and authority to fire probationary employees. And this judge also said that he didn't have the power to reinstate these probationary employees, the thousands of them that had already been fired.

So, again, unclear what the full impact of this ruling will be, but it is clear that the OPM doesn't have the authority to tell these agencies to do this.

BROWN: All right. Rene Marsh, thank you so much, great to see you.

Up next, it is the subject of podcasts and books and both the vice president and Mark Zuckerberg recently talked about it, is there a masculinity crisis? We'll discuss next with one of the top health podcasters, Dr. Andrew Huberman, and Psychoanalyst Dr. James Hollis.

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BROWN: Officials are now saying the deaths of Gene Hackman, his wife, Betsy, and their dog are suspicious enough to warrant an investigation. But authorities also say there were no immediate signs of foul play. Deputies were first called for a wellness check after a caretaker made this call to 911.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do they appear to be awake or alert?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, no, no, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are they moving at all?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, dude, they're not moving. Just send somebody out here really quick.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Okay, my units are underway. Okay.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: CNN Security Correspondent Josh Campbell joins us now live from Santa Fe. So what are you hearing from authorities about a possible timeline here, Josh?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pam, you know, this case is obviously a tragedy, but also a big mystery. And you know very well covering law enforcement for so many years that when you have a death, that doesn't always involve authority. Sometimes it's just a medical examiner here. When the sheriff's department arrived, what they found concerned them so much that they went to a judge, got a warrant in order to search the residents. Here's what we know about what they found when they arrived.

Now, as they entered the residence, they found Gene Hackman's wife, Betsy, on the floor of the bathroom. Next to her, there were pills that were scattered about. There was a deceased dog that was in a closet nearby. And in yet another room was Gene Hackman, and so authorities again calling it suspicious enough in order to get a warrant, that investigation is now underway.

They say that at this point, no signs of any type of foul play. There was no sign of any type of struggle. and nothing was taken from the residence. So, it didn't appear to be some type of robbery.

The sheriff here spoke earlier with NBC News talking more about what authorities found when they got to the residence. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERIFF ADAN MENDOZA, SANTA FE COUNTY, NEW MEXICO: There were several doors that were unlocked at the residence. I believe the front door was closed, but unlocked, unsecured. There was one door that was ajar and that was towards the rear of the residence that two of the dogs that survived were coming in and out of the residence.

We're not sure if that door was open upon the arrival of emergency personnel or if that -- you know, if it was open upon entry of emergency personnel.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMPBELL: Now there are two investigations going on at the same time. We have the sheriff's department that's trying to determine what was happening at the house, but also the medical examiner trying to determine the specific cause of death.

We did hear from authorities yesterday with some important information, that is the autopsies have been done. They say at this point there's no sign of any external type of trauma.

[10:25:01]

They did send out tests for carbon monoxide as well as toxicology tests, all to try to understand what was happening here.

And, finally, it's worth pointing out that the sheriff's department is used to high-profile cases. This is the very same investigative team that worked the Alec Baldwin case involving the shooting on the set of the movie, Rust. They certainly understand that members of this community, and indeed fans of Gene Hackman and his family around the world, want to know what happened. They're trying to get those answers, Pam.

BROWN: All right. Josh Campbell, thanks so much.

Largely misunderstood, that is how a notorious right wing influencer Andrew Tate described himself after touching down in Florida yesterday. The self-proclaimed misogynist and his brother had been held in Romania on charges of rape and money laundering among other alleged crimes. Their embrace of an aggressive brand of masculinity has been welcomed in some powerful circles, especially as many people call out what they see as a crisis for men these days. Vice President J.D. Vance addressed it at the Conservative Political Action Conference last week.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: I think that our culture sends a message to young men, that you should suppress every masculine urge. You should try to cast aside your family. You should try to suppress what makes you a young man in the first place. And I think that my message to young men is don't allow this broken culture to send you a message that you're a bad person because you're a man, because you like to tell a joke, because you like to have a beer with your friends or because you're competitive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg said this on Joe Rogan's podcast last month.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK ZUCKERBERG, CEO, META: I think a lot of the corporate world is like pretty culturally neutered.

The kind of masculine energy, I think, is good.

JOE ROGAN, HOST, THE JOE ROGAN EXPERIENCE: Yes.

ZUCKERBERG: Obviously, you know, society has plenty of that but I think corporate culture was really like trying to get away from it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Well, the word masculinity holds a different meaning to many recent study show that men are less likely to have close friends and less likely to reach out for help. Data also show young men falling behind in education and in the labor force, and experiencing higher rates of suicide than women.

So, why are these problems becoming more amplified with time? With us to try to better understand this question is Stanford Neuroscientist Dr. Andrew Huberman, who hosts one of the top health podcasts in the world, The Huberman Lab, and Author and Psychoanalyst Dr. James Hollis. Gentlemen, great to see you both.

JAMES HOLLIS, PSYCHOANALYST AND AUTHOR: Thank you very much, a pleasure to be with you.

BROWN: Dr. Hollis, I want to start with you because you were a guest on Dr. Huberman's podcast, which tops Spotify's wellness chart last year. And in that episode, you discussed many of the points we'll get you today. But broadly speaking, do you think there is a crisis of masculinity, as some are trying to claim, especially in the subset of young men?

HOLLIS: Well, I think there's a crisis of how we describe masculinity. The way the vice president was speaking about it was based upon, I think, antique notions of gender roles, gender identity. And underneath all of that is a kind of assumption that this comes with nature or divinity, when, in fact, we know that gender is a human contrivance. Gender is a human construct. Sexuality is natural. It's part of our physiology.

But the way we've defined what a man is supposed to do, feel or act is related to each culture, each family, each nation and each history, and so forth. So, we need to understand, first of all, it's provisional. So, the definition of what a human being is up for grabs and is evolving as we learn more and more about our own natures.

BROWN: Dr. Huberman, I'm curious what you think about that. So many men of all ages listen to your incredibly popular podcast. You often hear from them. What do they say to you about this issue?

ANDREW HUBERMAN, NEUROSCIENTIST AND HOST, HUBERMAN LAB: Yes. So, I look at things a bit more through the lens of biology than psychology, but I do look at them through both. And what I'm hearing are essentially three things. First of all, I think everybody acknowledges that we have a crisis of loneliness among men, I believe among all Americans, but certainly among men, young and old. And that's a serious consideration, especially because when we hear about men, typically, it's young men, but men doing things that are truly bad, that everyone would agree is bad, okay, school shootings, things of these sorts.

There's almost always conditions of loneliness that accompany that. This person is isolated. This person is not embedded in community well. So, this is key. That's at the extreme. But we are well aware that there's a crisis of loneliness more generally in this country, and that young men are suffering from this.

That leads to the second point, which is, you know, it's not necessary but it's been typical and it is healthy for there to be competition and hierarchy among young men.