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CNN International: Trump-Zelenskyy Meeting Devolves Into Shouting Match; U.S. Lawmakers React To Angry Trump-Zelenskyy Exchange; Vatican: Pope Put On Breathing Machine After Sudden Episode. Aired 3-4p ET
Aired February 28, 2025 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[15:00:33]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
ISA SOARES, CNN HOST: It is 8:00 p.m. in London, 3:00 p.m. in Washington, D.C., and I'm Isa Soares. Thank you very much for joining me today on CNN NEWSROOM.
Let's get right to our top story on our breaking news story, which is historic, remarkable and truly extraordinary. Those words may not be enough, actually, to describe a high stakes meeting between U.S. President Donald Trump and President Volodymyr Zelenskyy today that boiled over with anger before a White House official says President Trump told the Ukrainians to leave the White House.
Last hour, a surreal moment with President Zelenskyy exiting without signing a deal to give the U.S. access to Ukraine's natural resources. Of course, something they've been talking about for so long in exchange, of course, for help ending Russia's invasion.
A news conference originally scheduled just the last supposed to be in the last hour, was canceled just after this jaw dropping exchange earlier from the Oval Office and all out shouting match between world leaders. That almost always happens. May happen behind closed doors, but never like this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONAL TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You're gambling with World War III. You're gambling with World War III, and what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country. That's back to you far more than a lot of people said they should have.
J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Have you said thank you once this entire meeting? No. In this entire meeting, have you said thank you?
You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October, offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president, who is trying to save your country.
TRUMP: Your country is in big trouble.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: I know.
TRUMP: You're not winning. No, you're not winning this. You have a damn good chance of coming out okay because of us.
ZELENSKYY: U.S. president, we are staying in our country, staying strong. From the very beginning of the war, we've been alone and we are thankful. I said thanks in this cabinet.
TRUMP: You haven't been alone. You haven't been alone.
We gave you, through the stupid president, $350 billion. We gave you military equipment.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: And your men are brave, but they had to use our military equipment. If you didn't have our military equipment, if you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks, okay?
ZELENSKYY: In three days, I heard it from Putin in three days.
What do you -- what do you mean?
VANCE: I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country.
ZELENSKYY: Yes, but if you're not strong --
VANCE: Mr. President, Mr. President, with respect, I think its disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office and try to litigate this in front of the American media. Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the president for trying to bring an end to this conflict.
ZELENSKYY: Have you ever been to Ukraine that you say what problems we have?
VANCE: I have been to --
ZELENSKYY: Come once.
VANCE: I have actually, I've actually watched and seen the stories and I know what happens is you bring people, you bring them on a propaganda tour, Mr. President, do you disagree that you've had problems bringing people into your military? And do you think that it's respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to trying to prevent the destruction of your country?
ZELENSKYY: A lot of -- a lot of questions. Let's start from the beginning.
VANCE: Sure. ZELENSKYY: First of all, during the war, everybody has problems, even
you. But you have nice ocean and don't feel now, but you will feel it in the future.
God bless you.
TRUMP: You don't know that.
ZELENSKYY: God bless you. God bless you. You will know that in a war.
TRUMP: Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel.
ZELENSKYY: I'm not telling you. I'm answering on his question.
TRUMP: Because you're in no position to dictate that.
ZELENSKYY: I'm not dictating.
TRUMP: Remember this.
You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: I saw it. Well, this photo you're looking at right there pretty much sums it all. The Ukrainian ambassador to the U.S. holding her head in her hands during the heated back and forth between President Trump and Zelenskyy. In a social media post, President Trump slammed Mr. Zelenskyy, saying he, as you can see, disrespect to the United States of America in a cherished Oval Office, you can come back when he is ready for peace.
And just a short time ago, Ukraine's leader thanked the president, Congress and the American people for the -- for the support, saying Ukraine just needs lasting peace and we are working exactly for that.
Do you remember during that little exchange we played there, he was saying, you're not acting at all thankful. Um, and you haven't said thank you once, we heard twice.
Meanwhile, the Russian president, special envoy Kirill Dmitriev, is calling the exchange between both leaders historic.
[15:05:04]
So they're clearly celebrating.
We'll go to -- to Moscow in just a second. Let's get the perspective from our Kevin Liptak, who is at the White House, our chief -- chief international security correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, who is in Kyiv.
Let me go to you first, Kevin. You were there. Give us a bit of the behind the scenes because we were expecting this deal that didn't happen, expecting a press conference that didn't happen. And then it seems that President Zelenskyy was told to leave, to leave the White House.
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yeah, that's exactly right. We were talking last hour about exactly what happened in that interim between when that meeting ended or when the cameras turned off, at least, and when we saw Zelenskyy leave. And I have been able to find out a little bit more of what was happening in the West Wing, we understand that after that blow up, the two sides, the American side and the Ukrainian side went to separate rooms inside the West Wing.
The president, President Trump, conferred with his advisers, including Vance, who you heard there, but also the secretary of state, Marco Rubio. And ultimately they decided that it would be time for the Ukrainians to leave. The Ukrainians signaled that they wanted to keep talking, that they weren't finished sort of having this discussion potentially able to amend ties somewhat after that blow up. But President Trump ultimately determined that that was not the right course of action. And he sort of mandated that they be asked to leave. I think it's fair to say that they were kicked out, and we did see Zelenskyy walking out about an hour later, getting into his black SUV and leaving the White House.
We also understand that a speech that he had planned to give at a think tank later this afternoon in Washington has now been canceled, so you get a little bit more of the dynamic that was underway there. Of course, the minerals deal that they had planned to sign that's now gone out the window. They had, you know, set up this long wooden table in the East Room with pens at the ready for the two men to put their signatures down.
That is not happening. The press conference is not happening either. You know, I've been around for a lot of Oval Office meetings at the White House. I never would have expected to see anything quite like this.
It's fair to say it's completely unprecedented, at least in modern presidential history, to see the president of the United States, with the help of his vice president, essentially berating the wartime leader who is visiting, trying to ask for more military assistance, trying to ask for security guarantees.
And the real question now is, where does this all go? What is the state of the peace negotiations that President Trump says that he wants to hold with Vladimir Putin? Does he still plan to do that?
I think this is all, you know, sort of up in the air. What you've seen the White House doing just in the last hour is really trying to bolster what President Trump did. They sent out a press release saying that he is standing up for America. They sent out one of his top congressional allies, the Senator Lindsey Graham, from South Carolina, to come out to the White House lawn to talk to reporters, to say that Zelenskyy must apologize, even suggesting that Zelenskyy must resign in order for the United States to have someone that they feel like they can work with in Kyiv.
But I think it's fair to say that this relationship has completely bottomed out. There is no sort of repairing it that people can see right now. In talking to American officials, talking to the presidents advisors, they do not think that this is reparable at this moment.
SOARES: Yeah. And look, wanting perhaps someone different as a leader is right out of the Kremlin playbook, by the way, something that we have heard from the Kremlin. Let's just be very clear about that.
But Lindsey Graham, we heard in the last hour saying, you know, either he resigns or something needs to change. What about others within the Republican Party? What are the voices are you hearing on this and how they perceive this?
LIPTAK: Well, we haven't heard a great amount of dissension yet. I think that partly tells you the state of the Republican Party at the moment. We do know -- I mean, Lindsey Graham actually met with Zelenskyy earlier this week. They sat down with Republicans and Democrats. There is still a sliver of Republicans in Washington who do want to continue supporting Ukraine, who feel that it is essential not only for Ukraine's security, but also Europe's security as a whole, to make sure that Putin doesn't win the war there.
But I think it so far, it's been very slow to hear a lot of criticism of what happened in the Oval Office. In part, that's because the Republican Party is still coming to grips with this new administration. Certainly, this is a very different Republican Party that existed even during Trump's first go around. And so I think you're not necessarily going to hear a flood of opinions on this. Those who do disagree with the president will probably just remain silent.
SOARES: Yeah. And the Democrats, were hearing reporting from our colleague Lauren Fox, who saying the Democrats who met with Zelenskyy, Kevin, say that the word they used, they're flabbergasted by what happened in the Oval Office. He did it on purpose in the Oval. We will have to seriously consider the possibility that the president of the United States is not shared the values of Americans, as Senator Brian Schatz, the Democrat from Hawaii, describing the meeting earlier.
[15:10:09]
So we're getting some of the reaction now from Democrats as well, some Republicans. And we've also seen plenty of reaction from European leaders.
Kevin, appreciate it. Thank you very much. European leaders saying you'll never walk alone. There has been so much reaction from Poland to Spain to Germany. Foreign minister all really defending President Zelenskyy unwavering support as the Estonians put it out.
Let me get the view really from my next guest is Oleksiy Goncharenko, who is a member of Ukraine's parliament.
Give me your sense, Oleksiy, of what you saw, really, in that exchange between president Trump and president Zelenskyy?
OLEKSIY GONCHARENKO, UKRAINE PARLIAMENT MEMBER: It was catastrophe, the real catastrophe. I can't add anything else. I mean, that is very bad.
And just I want to tell the American people that Ukrainian people have a lot of respect to Americans and to your administration. It's up to you whom to elect. And we have no difference whom we elect. We have a lot of respect for them.
I think what -- what had happened was unacceptable. I think its bad both for our -- for our two countries. But when it's bad for the United States, it can be catastrophic for Ukraine because we are in a very difficult situation.
I think the only one person in the world who is happy right now is Vladimir Putin, is absolutely happy. All champagne bottles are empty in Kremlin. But I want to tell you, despite all these, what -- what had happened, we are -- we have common enemy.
United States is the same enemy for Russia is Ukraine. They are very -- they are very clear about this. So please don't forget it. And don't forget that Ukraine. And this is my also address to President Trump and his team, Ukraine is not one person. Ukraine is tens of millions of people who are fighting for freedom, for our common values and against our common enemy.
And I want our countries to repair relationships. I understand now we are in deep crisis, our relationships between our countries. But I want us to get out of this because that makes us weaker. And for us, it means that hundreds of thousands can die, which is which would be a humanitarian catastrophe. So we need support of the United States.
SOARES: And, you know, I'm glad you brought Russia. And we'll go to Russia in just in just a moment, because so far from the meetings that we've seen between President Trump or I should say, between President Trump's administration and Russians, we have seen very -- we've heard very little in terms of concessions. In fact, we've heard more carrot than we've heard stick.
But we'll get to Russians in just a second, in a sec -- in just a moment. You talked about unacceptable. Unacceptable, who? Was that unacceptable to hear what we heard from president Zelenskyy? Or was it an acceptable to hear President Trump and president -- and J.D. Vance, Vice President J.D. Vance berating him and humiliating him? Acceptable, and who -- what part?
GONCHARENKO: When -- I'm a Ukrainian citizen and I think I don't have right to give estimations to what American officials are doing, it should be done by American people. As Ukrainian citizens, I should tell you that no difference what President Zelenskyy heard, he should be calm, not arguing and saying that we want to cooperate and communicate and we don't have -- we don't want to have any problems with the United States. We want the United States to be our ally.
As Ukrainian citizen as he is my president, President Zelenskyy, and I want him to be -- much more diplomatic. I want him to be super calm because it's not about, you know, it's not a kindergarten. It's too serious. And our lives here in Ukraine, every day depend from do will we
receive military support from the United States or not? This is too serious. So that's my estimation.
And American people can give their own estimations to what -- what do they think about how their officials did. But I want to say about my president and Mr. Zelenskyy.
SOARES: Yeah. You think that he should have been slightly more diplomatic, perhaps more deferential to -- in that moment given, of course, the consequences constructive.
GONCHARENKO: He should be -- he should be -- he should be constructive and he should remain all consequences. We just can't. It's great. You will never work alone. I mean, I like and think everybody for supporting today Ukraine.
But I just want to remind you that there are types of support which only one country in the world can give us, and this country is the United States of America. And this country has one president. It's Mr. Trump, and he will be president for four years more. We need to work with President Trump, not to argue with President Trump.
SOARES: And you know, the point, Oleksiy, that you make, this is your biggest supporter, your strongest ally.
[15:15:02]
The fact that we've come to this juncture is historic. It's significant, like you said, it is alarming, at the same time, given how we've seen that relationship deteriorate right in front of the world's eyes, in that -- in that -- in the Oval Office. But, you know, we heard from Senator Graham of the United States in the last hour or so saying he either has to resign, speaking of President Zelenskyy or something needs to change, he said he said that President Zelenskyy made it almost impossible to sell to Americans, to American people, that he is a good investor.
Where does that leave then President Zelenskyy?
GONCHARENKO: The problem is not where does it leave President Zelenskyy? The problem is what will be with tens of millions of Ukrainians , children, women who are suffering every day, who are dying, 1 million people who are fighting against this axis of evil, which is not just Russia, it's Iran, North Korea, China standing behind them. It's our common enemy. That's very important.
With all respect to Senator Graham, to resign or not to resign, that's the question to Ukrainian people. As I told you, Mr. Zelenskyy is Ukrainian president and that Ukrainian will decide what to do.
But I really think that today, it was a very bad day. Very, very bad day. And we need just to get out of it.
SOARES: How then, Oleksiy, can you turn this around? I mean, I'm seeing tons of unwavering support from Europeans just in the last few minutes.
The president of the European Council, Antonio Costa, said your dignity honors the bravery of the Ukrainian people. He says, be strong, be brave, be fearless. You are never alone. Dear President Zelenskyy, we will continue working with you for a just and lasting peace.
Similar messages from Estonia, Spain. Last hour, I spoke to the foreign minister of Czech Republic. What then happens now we've got European leaders. I think, coming to London. We've seen Starmer -- with Prime Minister Starmer, we've seen President macron.
What happens now? Can you can you heal this, this breakup in this relationship?
GONCHARENKO: We need to -- we need to heal it. And I am very thankful to all European leaders who are supporting today Ukraine. And I would ask them not just to post something on Twitter, but to go to Washington and try to heal this right now. And maybe that's a good idea to have this summit not in London, but in Washington, to ask President Trump to sit and speak calmly about what's going on, what can be consequences.
We can't divide. We can't divorce with the United States of America. We should be together because our alliance is making stronger both Europe and the United States.
And again, only our enemies are happy right now. So I think that's something which should be said now. It's not a time for parading. You know who is who has more courage. And I'm sorry, who have more balls. It's a question now to show that who has more brains and that is so important, so important right now.
SOARES: And as I've heard from many foreign ministers on my show, this is exactly what Russians want to see, division, right, in Europe with the United States.
I really appreciate you taking time, Oleksiy, to speak to us. Oleksiy there live from Kyiv in Ukraine, thank you. Thank you very much indeed.
We're going to take a short break. We'll be back with more breaking news after this. Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:21:42]
SOARES: Welcome back, everyone.
Let me bring you up to date breaking news that we've been following here for the past, what, 2-1/2 hours, almost three hours. Really an exchange that we've seen at the White House and the Oval Office right there between President Trump and President Zelenskyy, both men clashing in, extraordinary exchange. It is a shouting match of sorts between two leaders in front of the press -- of the eyes, cameras right there, where President Trump told Zelenskyy to make a deal or we're out, told him -- he told him, and so did Vice President Vance. You're not acting at all thankful, became really uncomfortable to watch where President Zelenskyy, as you can see, he was uncomfortable there, but where he was berated and he was humiliated.
In the last hour or so, Senator Lindsey Graham coming out and saying that he was disrespectful, President Zelenskyy was disrespectful, saying that he either has to resign or something needs to change. We know from our Kevin Liptak at the White House that following from that meeting that President Zelenskyy was told to leave the White House.
Following from that, President Donald Trump took to social media to say he can come back when he is ready for peace.
Why is this important? Well, because this is a defining moment in this conflict. Of course, President Zelenskyy wanting an agreement like President Trump on this minerals hoping to sign -- remember just earlier this week, he said it would be historic. That didn't happen. There was no deal on that. There was no press conference.
And this is a defining moment in the raises the question whether it puts U.S. aid in doubt.
Let's put all of this into context. Joining us now, Susan Glasser. He's -- she's a staff writer for "The New Yorker".
And, Susan, I was left gobsmacked as I was watching. I've seen it three times, Susan. Every single time, I still can't believe what I heard and what I saw.
Just give me your take of what play -- we saw play out.
SUSAN GLASSER, STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORKER: Yeah, the more times you see it, it doesn't get any better. It was a shocking and disturbing moment, really, one of the most stunning videos ever to come out of the Oval Office, really, in particular because you saw at times both Donald Trump and his vice president, J.D. Vance, essentially ganging up on Vladimir Zelenskyy, the president of Ukraine. And, you know, sort of double teaming him, they used stinging and personal language against the president of Ukraine, in contrast to his efforts to, you know, explain Ukraine's position. We heard a number of mistruths, and Russian talking points from the president of United States.
And if you pull back, it just tends to clarify what we've seen really developing over the last few weeks, which is that Donald Trump appears to have switched sides and switched the United States sides in the war between Russia and Ukraine. And he is no longer on the side of Ukraine. And this is a geopolitical earthquake, of course, not to mention a catastrophe for Ukraine's security.
SOARES: Yeah. And on the talking points, you know, we heard Lindsey Graham saying he needs to resign or something needs to change. And we know the resignation is something that the Russians have been calling for some time.
[15:25:03] And that is -- that is clear.
We are, Susan, getting some reaction, plenty of reaction from this side of the pond, unwavering support from so many European leaders. We are hearing from our team that French President Emmanuel Macron, who, of course, saw President Trump earlier in the week, has reacted to this meeting. He said that Russia is the aggressor here and that saying that Ukraine needs to be respected, there is an aggressor, which is Russia, he says, and an attacked people, which is Ukraine. So this is Macron in remarks in the last few minutes to French television.
We were right to help Ukraine and to sanction Russian three years ago and to continue doing so.
I wonder then, Susan, how you salvage this, can this be salvage -- salvageable at all at this point?
GLASSER: Well, a couple things. First of all, I do think that it, you know, unfortunately sort of puts to rest the wishful thinking that I've heard -- I'm sure you've heard from many European leaders in the last few months since Trump's election, this idea that somehow Trump wasn't going to take Russia's side, wasn't going to essentially advocate for Vladimir Putin's positions. You know, let's put that to rest, because we've seen very clearly that's not the case.
The question is, is the rift going to broaden and deepen, and how much does it now put Europe's security at risk, in addition to obviously putting Ukraine's future ability to keep fighting at risk? And, you know, remember J.D. Vance, who seemed at times to be egging the confrontation on, J.D. Vance has not only been a long time skeptic of Ukraine, but also a skeptic of the value of U.S.'s alliances in Europe. And so this may be just something that he wanted to happen.
SOARES: Yeah. And we heard exactly made his point very clear on Ukraine, but also on Europe and where he stands on Europe, when he was here not so long ago.
Susan, really appreciate your expertise on this. Thank you very much.
We want to continue with this breaking news -- we're going to keep. Are we keeping Susan for the time being? We are actually, Susan. Bear with us and let me pick up on that.
Then in that case, you know, you were mentioning there where this leaves Europe, the other aspect of this and we'll -- we'll figure out what happens this weekend with leaders here in Europe, with Prime Minister Starmer hosting them.
But the other aspect of this is U.S. aid what happens now? This is the biggest supporter for Ukraine, the strongest ally. Is that - is that now in question? Is that in doubt at this point?
GLASSER: Absolutely. By the way, it already was in doubt. To be clear --
SOARES: Yeah, yeah.
GLASSER: -- you know, before Biden left office, there was a final package of aid approved by the U.S. Congress. That's been being dispersed. There's still some months to go in terms of what Congress has already authorized. I would be very dubious even before this confrontation, that Donald Trump and the Republicans in Congress following his lead would have approved any additional military assistance for Ukraine. And, this kind of shows you that that, that that probably is pretty clear.
Again, there is still a certain amount left that has already been approved by the U.S. Congress. You know, one question I have is whether the Trump Defense Department will actually disperse it according to the law, because Trump has already shown that he is willing to defy Congress's orders and not distribute aid that's been approved by Congress like foreign aid around the world.
So one question is whether he will actually agree to go ahead and give Ukraine the aid that Congress has already approved.
SOARES: Yeah, Susan, appreciate it. Thank you very much indeed. And thank you for staying for an extra question.
We are going to take a short break. I'll be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:32:15]
SOARES: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the breaking news, a stunning and bitter ending to talks between U.S. President Donald Trump and President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine.
We have now reaction from Russia. The Russian president's adviser, Kirill Dmitriev, is calling the heated talks between Zelenskyy and Trump historic.
Let's bring in our chief global affairs correspondent, Matthew Chance, who joins us live from Moscow.
And, Matthew, I've heard from many voices, European foreign ministers here, Ukrainians who pointed one thing and that is that perhaps in their view, that the Kremlin is pleased with this.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: By Kirill Dmitriev, who is a Kremlin envoy to the U.S.-Russian negotiations, who was in Riyadh a couple of weeks ago. He's also the head of the Russian sovereign wealth fund, saying that this was an historic. He said it was historic, describing that, that those chaotic scenes in the Oval Office.
It gives you a sense of just what the Kremlin thinks. And senior Russian officials think this all means, which is basically an -- an about face when it comes to Washington's foreign policy. The -- the humiliation and the dressing down of a longstanding Washington, you know, somebody who's been supported by Washington, a long standing sort of enemy of the Kremlin in the form of President Zelenskyy.
And so I think that's certainly a fair characterization that history will, for better or worse. Uh, you know, judge the events of the day, the other reactions, though, that have come through from the various Russian officials who have reacted have been much less -- well, polite, I suppose. The Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman, Maria Zakharova, said this how Trump and Vance restrained themselves. Hold on a second. Restrained themselves and didn't slap him. She didn't use the word him there. It is a miracle of endurance.
And so, you know, the foreign ministry, their spokeswoman basically kind of, you know, agreeing and supporting this White House idea that President Zelenskyy was disrespectful.
That's also been sort of amplified by Dmitry Medvedev, who, as you may know, is the former Russian president, former prime minister as well, a close ally of Vladimir Putin. Given it has to be said to outlandish statements. But this is what he tweeted: The insolent pig finally got a proper slap -- slap down in the Oval Office.
And Donald Trump is right. The Kyiv regime is gambling with World War III. He posted that on -- on the -- on the X platform as well.
And so, you know, in general you get this idea, you know, privately, you know, many Russian officials and private Russians that I've spoken to over the course of the past couple of hours were pretty gobsmacked to see, you know, leaders of nations speak to each other like this in public in this way.
[15:35:18]
But publicly, um, you know, anybody who's talking is supporting the White House in its sort of like, feelings of disrespect against Zelenskyy.
SOARES: Yeah. And while we have seen many messages of unwavering support from Estonia, Spain, Czech Republic, Antonio Costa, the E.U., we have also seen from Orban -- Viktor Orban of Hungary, of course, the strongman -- strongman make peace, weak men make war.
CHANCE: Can I -- can I just say, Isa?
SOARES: Yeah, go ahead, go ahead.
CHANCE: That -- that -- that -- that's, yeah. Yeah, that's -- that's one of the things that the Kremlin likes most about this. I think it won't mention it, but, you know, you know, disunity within the western alliance, which has been sort of bubbling away, really, since the inauguration of Donald Trump, is something that has been a long term Kremlin objective even before the Ukraine war. And they're seeing it unfold before them now.
SOARES: Matthew Chance, thank you very much indeed.
Lets get the very latest now from our chief national security correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh, in Kyiv. And, Nick, for viewers who may not know, you have covered Ukraine, not
just this recent war, but you have covered Ukraine for years. Give us a sense of the feeling on the ground. I've spoken to various Ukrainians just in the last two hours.
What are you hearing?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Consternation and real concern I think that there is a huge seismic shift in the support that Ukraine can rely on in the days ahead. We're hearing, as you may have been reporting, of some suggestions, that there are frantic bids to diplomatically tidy up what's happened here. French President Emmanuel Macron has spoken to Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. We understand from Ukrainian source.
Remember, Macron was the one who, at the G7 meeting on Monday through a video call, appeared alongside Trump in the Oval Office, seemed to ingratiate Zelenskyy into that particular call and then sat next to Trump in the Oval Office as he said he was going to invite Zelenskyy to the White House to sign the rare earth deal, very much the peacemaker. He's been on the phone.
Mark Rutte, the secretary general of NATO, is currently apparently on the phone to Zelenskyy and the. European President Costa has been on the phone, too.
So a bid by Europe to directly reach out to Zelenskyy, we've seen on social media multiple attempts, or multiple statements from European powers in support and Estonian foreign minister actually suggesting that Europe has the potential to go this alone by using foreign assets of Russia's that are frozen in European jurisdictions moving forward.
So a lot of messages of support, bids clearly to radically sew up potentially whatever can be salvaged from this. But im hearing from a U.S. official that potentially it was a wardrobe choice by President Zelenskyy, which may have contributed to the sour start of this meeting. Zelenskyy wearing his trademark T-shirt, long sleeved with the Ukrainian insignia upon it. He's worn green t-shirts in the past, projecting that image of a wartime leader.
The source I spoke to saying, look, this is something which, potentially went down badly with Trump. It wasn't the moment for that.
We really have to see what happens next to Zelenskyy physically. There are suggestions he might still go ahead with interviews on U.S. TV networks later on today. Some other events are being canceled.
And there is also now a larger question after the comments of Lindsey Graham, that Zelenskyy needs to step aside or somehow write his way. I paraphrase there that we are now entering into a very confusing period, potentially here, just in Ukrainian politics. While there have been outpourings of support for Zelenskyy on some military Telegram channels, there are also questions as to whether this meeting was handled the right way.
And that also, I think people who are deeply in support of Zelenskyy standing up for Ukraine in the sort of after the kind of drumming that he got at times from Trump and Vance there in the Oval Office. But really, there's a dark moment here where you Ukraine's aid from us is in doubt. Zelenskyy relationship with Trump is clearly contributing significantly to that.
And as you were hearing just then, real, I think, possible delight in Moscow that things have suddenly flipped back again after a week where they look to be moving back in Europe's and Ukraine's favor -- Isa.
SOARES: Yeah, so many, so many points. Some good points you made there. And the question is, can it be tidied up? Can it be healed? At this moment, I won't comment on the fashion because my eyes were rolling, just as you were saying that.
Nick, appreciate it. Thank you very much indeed.
Let's go to Lauren Fox live on Capitol Hill.
Lauren, just give me a sense of what you are hearing. We heard from Lindsey Graham saying he either needs to resign, speaking of Zelenskyy or something else, or something needs to change. What else have you been hearing from how -- how are the senators reacting to what they saw play out?
[15:40:06]
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, I mean, let's just set through the day that happened at the White House and beyond. Lawmakers met with Zelenskyy earlier today. There was a small group of bipartisan lawmakers, including the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Roger Wicker, as well as Chuck Grassley, and then a number of Democrats who met with him.
And I talked to a couple of those Democrats who were in that meeting just a short time ago, including Senator Brian Schatz of Hawaii, and asked, you know, was there any preview? Was there any sense that you got that Zelenskyy was agitated or frustrated? Did anything happen in that meeting that might have set this up in the oval office?
And Schatz said, absolutely not. This was a really respectful meeting. We didn't agree on every single topic that was discussed, but we were allies in that room, really having a conversation about Ukraine and the U.S.'s relationship.
And multiple Democrats have also pointed out to me that in that conversation and other conversations that they have had with Zelenskyy throughout the years, that he is always very quick to thank the United States for their help abroad. And I think that that is something that Democrats were really emphasizing, given the fact that that came up today in this meeting.
Meanwhile, you have a couple of Republicans who are making it clear that they are very concerned about the state of the relationship between the U.S. and Ukraine at this moment. Don Bacon, who is a Republican from a swing district in Nebraska, said a bad day for America's foreign policy. Ukraine wants independence, free markets and rule of law. It wants to be part of the West. Russia hates us and our western values. We should be clear that we stand for freedom.
Schatz put a lot of this blame, that Democrat that I talked to earlier squarely on Trump's shoulder and said, this is about the American presidency going off the rails and taking the side of the bad guys. He did it on purpose in the Oval, referring to Trump. We all have to seriously consider the possibility that the president of the United States does not share the values of Americans -- Isa.
SOARES: Lauren Fox there with the very latest. Thank you very much, Lauren.
And just before we go to break, I want to bring you the reaction from Friedrich Merz, who you remember, is the new chancellor of Germany, who was just elected on X, saying, Dear Volodymyr Zelenskyy, we stand with Ukraine in good and in testing times, he tweets. We must never confuse aggressor and victim in this terrible war.
We're going to stay across this breaking news. We'll have much more after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:45:45]
SOARES: Now, we're getting the reaction from Ukraine, from the White House. We've given you the perspective from Europe.
Let's go to former Ukrainian economy minister Tymofiy Mylovanov, who joins me now, a well-known face on the show.
Tymofiy, great to speak to you. I wish it was under better circumstances.
You heard it. We've all heard it. I mean, the world heard it right in front of the world's press. What did you take away from what -- from what we saw there in the oval office?
TYMOFIY MYLOVANOV, FORMER UKRAINIAN ECONOMY MINISTER: Yeah. I'm shocked. I think everyone around me is shocked. You know, this is the diplomacy, the way it should never be.
Now, we are very apprehensive. I hope there is a way to salvage the relationship, I think. I guess we will know in the next two or three hours. Yeah. But, basically everyone in Kyiv and here, uh, is in disbelief in, you know, we fought the war for three years. Zelenskyy, of course, is exhausted.
Yeah. It's just, you know, it's hard to cope with now. Everyone is afraid what's going to happen next if the U.S. fully pulls out, are we going to be thrown as a bone to Russians? You know, what's going to -- what's next?
SOARES: And, you know, he -- he's exhausted after, you know, three years. Everyone is exhausted. He is frustrated. And you could tell that, really, Tymofiy, from his body language and the way that he's carried and the pressure he's carried all these years. But do you think that you handled this well? Do you think? I mean,
what are you hearing from -- your from your friends and colleagues in Ukraine?
MYLOVANOV: Well, I want to be careful here. I don't want to create any more damage than there is already there and make it situation much more difficult. But, you know, I think people feel that, that he has been ambushed, and, of course, he didn't mean to say that he's ungrateful. He didn't say that, but yes, because he lives through this every day and sees people dying. And he has tried with Putin to negotiate.
So he, he, you know, it hurts him to see how the new U.S. administration is viewing it very differently, and I think he just couldn't, you know, couldn't resist and reacted to this.
SOARES: Yeah, it certainly looked like an ambush, didn't it?
Tymofiy, appreciate you taking the time. This breaking news for us. I know we'll all talk again. Let's hope that this can be fixed and can be healed. Thank you very much, Tymofiy.
Well, we're going to take a short break. Well have much more after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:50:53]
SOARES: A busy hour of breaking news and we have more breaking news for you this hour. The Vatican says that Pope Francis suddenly suffered an episode of breathing difficulty earlier, and was put on a breathing machine. Officials say the pope remained alert and oriented at all times.
Still, it is a distressing turn for 88 year old pontiff, who has been in hospital in Rome for just over two weeks receiving treatment for double pneumonia.
Our Vatican correspondent, Christopher Lamb, joins me now.
So, so, Christopher, it does seem very concerning the latest turn that we have seen. Update on the pope's health. Just bring us up to date what you're hearing from the Vatican at this hour.
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Isa, it is a setback for Pope Francis in his battle with pneumonia. Previous days, we had heard of slight improvement in the pope's condition.
But then this update, we're told from the Vatican that the pope had a bronchospasm, which is a tightening of the bronchi, which forced him to go on to this breathing machine. It's a not an invasive breathing machine, but it is obviously an intensification of the oxygen that he is receiving. There was also some vomiting that also led to the difficulty for the pope. Now, Francis has been in the hospital for 15 days. There's concern in
the Vatican and worry just behind me. People are leaving a prayer service that took place in St. Peter's Square. We'll get further updates from the Vatican on Saturday.
SOARES: Thank you very much. Christopher Lamb there from Rome with the very latest.
A Vatican spokesperson notes that Pope Francis is not considered out of danger at this point. Let's get more on this. CNN medical analyst, Dr. Jonathan Reiner joins me now from Washington.
Dr. Jonathan Reiner, I really appreciate it. We heard our correspondent there talking about a bronchospasm. How do you see what we -- what we've just heard in the last few moments? Is this just a blip or is this something more alarming, more concerning?
DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: No. I think this is a horrible setback for the pope. The details are a little bit unclear, but what it sounds like to me is that the pope became acutely short of breath which they're describing as perhaps related to bronchospasm. And during that process, he became nauseous and vomited.
Now, the risk to any person when they vomit, particularly when they're in the hospital, particularly when they have respiratory conditions, is that they can aspirate some of the vomitus. So aspirating the stomach contents can be a catastrophe. And particularly for this patient, the stomach contents is both full of bacteria. And that when that becomes inhaled into the airways, it becomes a nidus for another infection, and the pope is fighting off pneumonia on both sides.
And then it also creates what's called a chemical pneumonitis, which is an inflammation of the lung tissue, which into which the aspirate has -- has been contained. And it -- the other report is that the pope was placed on a breathing machine. And for a patient to have an acute respiratory event and then aspirate and then be placed on a breathing machine to me, it sounds like he's been intubated and placed on a -- on a ventilator.
And if that is indeed the case, that would be extraordinarily hard for, I think, this particular patient to recover from.
SOARES: Yeah. And worth bearing in mind he is 88 years of age and he has been, Dr. Jonathan Reiner, he has been, as we heard from our Vatican correspondent, been there in that hospital for two weeks, the same time, you know, as we hear these messages from the Vatican saying that he suffered a sudden episode of breathing difficulty.
We also heard the Vatican say that he remained alert and oriented at all times.
I mean, how do we make sense of this? Because we feels like we, you know, three steps back, one forward. That's how the week has been so far.
REINER: Well, I actually think that the trend hasn't been three steps forward and one step back. I think it's been a pretty, pretty steady march -- march backwards.
[15:55:04]
I did read that the Vatican suggested that he has been alert and oriented all the way through, and I actually hope that's not the case, because when someone has acute respiratory distress, it's this horrible acute air hunger feeling like you're choking because -- because you are. And if, the pope had to be placed on a ventilator, which it sounds like he has, one would hope that they had sedated him. I would not want to be fully awake with an emergent intubation.
So I hope that's a misrepresentation of what happened. And indeed, if the pope has been placed on a respirator, I hope that he is fully sedated and not awake and alert, so that he can be calm, to lower his blood pressure. And it will be much more humane for him.
SOARES: Dr. Jonathan Reiner, really appreciate you taking the time to speak to us. And earlier today, we saw just in the last hour, in fact, so many people taking to Rome, to the Vatican, they're praying for Pope Francis. Of course, that was also led by a compatriot of Pope Francis, who is also Argentinian. So prayers really from all around the world for a speedy recovery.
Thank you very much, Doctor. Appreciate it.
That does it for us. I'm Isa Soares.
Our breaking news coverage continues next with our Jim Sciutto. Do stay right here with CNN.
