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CNN International: Zelenskyy Leaves WH Early; Trump And Zelenskyy's Fiery Exchange; World Leaders In Solidarity With Ukraine; Democrats React To Tense Oval Office Meeting; Republicans React To Trump-Zelenskyy Meeting. Aired 6-7p ET
Aired February 28, 2025 - 18:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: That is Sunday morning at 9:00 and again at noon Eastern right here on CNN.
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The news continues right now with Wolf Blitzer in The Situation Room.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington, D.C.
We begin with an extraordinary exchange at the White House with potentially huge implications for the direction of the war in Ukraine and ultimately, relations between not just the U.S. and Ukraine, but the U.S. and Europe.
In front of the world's media, at the White House, a heated exchange escalating between U.S. President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. It began when, seated next to them, Vice President J. D. Vance interjected, berating the Ukrainian president, accusing him of a lack of gratitude and respect. That served to turn up the heat further. For his part, President Zelenskyy questioned the Trump administration's seeming willingness to trust Vladimir Putin. We will play the full explosive exchange in just a moment.
Afterwards, President Zelenskyy left the White House, apparently ordered out by President Trump, abandoning what were plans for a joint news conference and a signing ceremony of a minerals deal between the U.S. and Ukraine.
For the sake of context, we want to play you the majority of the exchange in the Oval Office. It runs more than 10 minutes. It is worth watching in full.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's your message for them?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, if I didn't align myself with both of them, you'd never have a deal. You want me to say really terrible things about Putin and then say, hi, Vladimir how are we doing on the deal? That doesn't work that way. I'm not aligned with Putin. I'm not aligned with anybody. I'm aligned with the United States of America. And for the good of the world. I'm aligned with the world. And I want to get this thing over with.
You see the hatred he's got for Putin. That's very tough for me to make a deal with that kind of hate. He's got tremendous hatred. And I understand that.
But I can tell you, the other side isn't exactly in love with, you know, him either. So, it's not a question of alignment. I have to -- I'm aligned with the world. I want to get the things that -- I'm aligned with Europe. I want to see if we can get this thing done.
You want me to be tough? I could be tougher than any human being you've ever seen. I'd be so tough, but you're never going to get a deal that way. So, that's the way it goes. All right. One more question. Go, Matt.
J. D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Hey, I will respond to this. So, look, for four years in the United States of America, we had a president who stood up at press conferences and talked tough about Vladimir Putin, and then Putin invaded Ukraine and destroyed a significant chunk of the country.
The path to peace and the path to prosperity is maybe engaging in diplomacy. We tried the pathway of Joe Biden of thumping our chest and pretending that the President of the United States' words mattered more than the President of the United States' actions. What makes America a good country is America engaging in diplomacy. That's what President Trump is doing.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Can I ask you?
VANCE: Sure. Yes.
ZELENSKYY: Yes?
VANCE: Yes.
ZELENSKYY: OK. So, he occupied our parts, big parts of Ukraine, parts of East and Crimea. So, he occupied it on 2014. So, during a lot of years, I'm not speaking about just Biden, but those time was Obama, then President Obama, then President Trump, then President Biden, now President Trump, and God bless, now President Trump will stop him. But during 2014, nobody stopped him. He just occupied and took. He killed people. You know what the contact --
TRUMP: 2015.
ZELENSKYY: 2014.
VANCE: 2014 and 2015.
TRUMP: Oh, 2014?
ZELENSKYY: Yes, yes. So, he killed --
TRUMP: I was -- I was not here.
ZELENSKYY: Yes, but --
VANCE: That's exactly right.
ZELENSKYY: Yes. But during 2014 till 2022, you know, the same -- well, the situation the same that people have been dying on the contact line. Nobody stopped here. You know that we had conversations with him, a lot of conversation, my bilateral conversation. And we signed with him, me, like a new president. In 2019, I signed with him, the deal. I signed with him, Macron and Merkel. We signed ceasefire. Ceasefire. All of them told me that he will never go. We signed him -- gas contract. Gas contract.
VANCE: Yes.
ZELENSKYY: Yes. But after that, he broke the ceasefire. He killed our people and he didn't exchange prisoners. We signed the exchange of prisoners, but he didn't do it. What kind of diplomacy, J. D., you are speaking about? What do you mean?
[18:05:00]
VANCE: I'm talking about the kind of diplomacy that's going to end the destruction of your country.
ZELENSKYY: Yes. But if you are not --
VANCE: Mr. President -- Mr. President, with respect, I think it's disrespectful for you to come into the Oval Office try to litigate this in front of the American media. Right now, you guys are going around and forcing conscripts to the front lines because you have manpower problems. You should be thanking the president for trying to bring it into this conflict.
ZELENSKYY: Have you ever been to Ukraine that you say what problems we have?
VANCE: I have been to --
ZELENSKYY: Then come one (ph).
VANCE: I have actually -- I've actually watched and seen the stories. And I know what happens is you bring people, you bring them on a propaganda tour, Mr. President. Do you disagree that you've had problems bringing people into your military?
ZELENSKYY: We have problems.
VANCE: And do you think that it's respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country?
ZELENSKYY: A lot of -- a lot of questions. Let's start from the beginning.
VANCE: Sure.
ZELENSKYY: First of all, during the war, everybody has problems. Even you. But you have nice ocean and don't feel now. But you will feel it in the future. God bless.
TRUMP: You don't know that.
ZELENSKYY: God bless.
TRUMP: You don't know that.
ZELENSKYY: God bless you will not have a war.
TRUMP: Don't tell us what we're going to feel. We're trying to solve a problem. Don't tell us what we're going to feel.
ZELENSKYY: I'm not telling you. I'm answering all his questions.
TRUMP: Because you're in no position to dictate that.
VANCE: That's exactly what you did.
TRUMP: Remember that. You're in no position to dictate what we're going to feel. We're going to feel very good.
ZELENSKYY: You will feel influenced.
TRUMP: We're going to feel very good and very strong.
ZELENSKYY: I'm telling, you will feel influenced.
TRUMP: You're right now not in a very good position. You've allowed yourself --
ZELENSKYY: From the very beginning of the war.
TRUMP: -- to be in a very bad position and it happens to be right about it.
ZELENSKYY: From the very beginning of the war.
TRUMP: You're not in a good position.
ZELENSKYY: I was -- I was --
TRUMP: You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards.
ZELENSKYY: We're not playing cards. I'm very serious, Mr. President.
TRUMP: Right now, you don't -- you're playing cards. You're playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people.
ZELENSKYY: You think --
TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III. ZELENSKYY: What are you talking about? What are you talking about?
TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III. And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country.
ZELENSKYY: I'm with all respect.
TRUMP: That's back to you, far more than a lot of people said they should have.
VANCE: Have you said thank you once this entire meeting?
ZELENSKYY: A lot of times. Even today.
VANCE: No. In this entire meeting, have you said thank you?
ZELENSKYY: Even today.
VANCE: You went to Pennsylvania and campaigned for the opposition in October, offer some words of appreciation for the United States of America and the president who's trying to save your country.
ZELENSKYY: Please. You think that if you will speak very loudly about the war, you can --
TRUMP: He's not speaking loudly. He's not speaking loudly. Your country is in big trouble.
ZELENSKYY: Can I answer?
TRUMP: Wait a minute. No, no.
ZELENSKYY: Can I answer?
TRUMP: You've done a lot of talking. Your country is in big trouble.
ZELENSKYY: I know. I know.
TRUMP: You're not winning. You're not winning this.
ZELENSKYY: I --
TRUMP: You have a damn good chance of coming out OK because of us.
ZELENSKYY: Mr. President, we are staying in our country, staying strong from the very beginning of the war. We've been alone. And we are thankful. I said thanks in this cabinet.
TRUMP: You haven't been alone. You haven't been alone.
ZELENSKYY: And not only in this cabinet.
TRUMP: We gave you through the stupid president $350 billion --
ZELENSKYY: You voted for your president.
TRUMP: We gave you military equipment.
ZELENSKYY: You voted for your president.
TRUMP: And your men are brave, but they had to use our military.
ZELENSKYY: What about -- you invited me.
TRUMP: If you didn't have our military equipment --
ZELENSKYY: You invited me.
TRUMP: If you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks.
ZELENSKYY: In three days, I heard it from Putin. In three days. This is something new.
TRUMP: Maybe less.
ZELENSKYY: In two weeks, of course, yes.
TRUMP: It's going to be a very hard thing to do business like this. I tell you.
VANCE: You say thank you.
ZELENSKYY: I said a lot of times thank you to the American people.
VANCE: Except that there -- exact that there are disagreements and let's go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong. We know that you're wrong.
TRUMP: But you see I think it's good for the American people to see what's going on over here.
VANCE: I agree, sir.
TRUMP: I think it's very important. That's why I kept this going so long. You have to be thankful. You don't have the cards.
ZELENSKYY: I'm thankful.
TRUMP: You're buried there. People are dying.
ZELENSKYY: I can tell you -- I know --
TRUMP: You're running low on soldiers. Listen. You're running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing.
ZELENSKYY: Mr. President --
TRUMP: Then you -- then you tell us -- I don't want a ceasefire. I don't want a ceasefire. I want to go. And I want to this. Look, if you could get a ceasefire right now, I'd tell you, you take it so the bullets stop flying and your men stop getting killed. ZELENSKYY: Of course -- of course we want to stop the war.
TRUMP: But you're saying you don't want a ceasefire.
ZELENSKYY: But I said to you --
TRUMP: I want to ceasefire.
ZELENSKYY: -- with guarantees.
TRUMP: Because you'll get a ceasefire faster than an agreement.
ZELENSKYY: Ask our people about ceasefire. What they think.
TRUMP: That wasn't with me --
ZELENSKYY: It doesn't matter for you what you want.
TRUMP: That wasn't with me. That was with a guy named Biden who was not a smart person. That was with -- that was with Obama.
ZELENSKYY: It was your president.
TRUMP: Excuse me. That was with Obama, who gave you sheets, and I gave you javelins.
ZELENSKYY: Yes.
TRUMP: I gave you the javelins to take out all those tanks. Obama gave you sheets. In fact, the statement is, Obama gave sheets and Trump gave javelins. You've got to be more thankful. Because let me tell you, you don't have the cards. With us, you have the cards. But without us, you don't have any cards.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One more question to Mr. Vice President. Sorry.
TRUMP: It's going to be a tough deal to make, because the attitudes have to change.
[18:10:00]
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What if Russia breaks ceasefire? What if Russia breaks the ceasefire? What do you then? I understand that it's a heated conversation right now.
TRUMP: What are you saying?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is Russia --
VANCE: She's asking what if Russia breaks the ceasefire?
TRUMP: What if anything? What if the bomb drops on your head right now? OK? What if they broke it? I don't know. They broke it with Biden because Biden, they didn't respect him. They didn't respect Obama. They respect me. Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me. He went through a phony witch-hunt where they used him and Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia. You ever hear of that deal? That was a phony -- that was a phony Hunter Biden-Joe Biden scam. Hillary Clinton, Shifty Adam Schiff. It was a Democrat scam. And he had to go through that. And he did go through it. We didn't end up in a war. And he went through it. He was accused of all that stuff. He had nothing to do with it. It came out of Hunter Biden's bathroom. It came out of Hunter Biden's bedroom. It was disgusting.
And then they said, oh, the laptop from hell was made by Russia, the 51 agents. The whole thing was a scam. And he had to put up with that. He was being accused of all that stuff.
All I can say is this. He might have broken deals with Obama and Bush, and he might have broken them with Biden. He did, maybe. Maybe he didn't. I don't know what happened. But he didn't break them with me. He wants to make a deal. I don't know if you can make a deal.
The problem is I've empowered you to be a tough guy. And I don't think you'd be a tough guy without the United States. And your people are very brave.
ZELENSKYY: Thank you.
TRUMP: But you're either going to make a deal or we're out. And if we're out, you'll fight it out. I don't think it's going to be pretty, but you'll fight it out. But you don't have the cards. But once we sign that deal, you're in a much better position. But you're not acting at all thankful. And that's not a nice thing. I'll be honest, that's not a nice thing.
All right. I think we've seen enough. What do you think, huh? This is is going to be great television, I will say that. All right. We'll see what we can do about putting it together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Great television, President Trump says, standing next to the leader of a country that has been under a full-scale invasion from Russia since 2022. And as the Ukrainian president noted there, they were first invaded in 2014 and Vladimir Putin violated, repeatedly, previous ceasefires the joint press conference intended between Trump and Zelenskyy was called off. And President Zelenskyy himself left the White House. It's our reporting that was on orders from President Trump.
Trump later posted on X, thank you, America. Thank you for your support. Thank you for this visit. Thank you, POTUS, Congress, and the American people. Ukraine needs just and lasting peace, and we are working exactly for that. That's President Zelenskyy's post, I should say.
In the last hour, President Trump laid out the terms for any potential new meeting between him and Zelenskyy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: He's got to say, I want to make peace. He doesn't have to stand there and say about Putin this, Putin that and all negative things. He's got to say, I want to make peace. I don't want to fight a war any longer. His people are dying. He doesn't have the cards, just so you understand it. OK. I could tell you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Nick Paton Walsh is in Kyiv. He joins me now. I wonder, as you've been receiving messages and watching public reactions to this meeting, are you sensing that the Ukrainian people, Ukrainian officials, leaders, are rallying around their president in this moment?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: I think there is a shared view of consternation, certainly. And, you know, each time people watch that again, it's quite clear that Zelenskyy is trying to defend Ukraine's position from a fact-based reality and often being encircled by a position which is sometimes hard to follow, frankly.
But I think it's also true that Ukrainians recognize the extraordinary predicament that they are now in. And pride can only get you so far. I think there is an urgent need for clarity here as to what really is retained from the U.S.-Ukraine relationship after that extraordinary televised fallout. We don't know really what this means for the rare earth minerals deal. It hasn't been signed. It did seem relatively toothless, a symbolic gesture. And that entire meeting was more about preserving the relationship.
I have heard from a senior U.S. official suggesting that there's nothing they believe they can do to fix this. It's down to President Zelenskyy. He's currently giving an interview to Fox News. We'll see quite what he says during that and also suggestions to separately from a source familiar with the negotiations that indeed, was Zelenskyy's team who pushed for an Oval Office meeting around the signing of that deal with Keith Kellogg, Trump's envoy to Ukraine, suggesting perhaps the relationship between Trump and Zelenskyy wasn't really there yet to get that to a comfortable place.
[18:15:00]
But we've seen remarkable rallying around Zelenskyy from European leaders. Starmer, the U.K. Prime Minister, has spoken to both Presidents Trump and Zelenskyy. We understand from Downing Street in London. And there are significant signs of European leaders thinking they need to find some potential way forward to support Ukraine with U.S. support wavering in the background.
We understand from a Ukrainian source that Zelenskyy has spoken to Emmanuel Macron, the French president, and the NATO Secretary General, Mark Rutte. This is clearly last-minute diplomacy here, desperately trying to put patched together.
What I think those European leaders from France and Britain had thought might be a soft landing potentially for Trump and Zelenskyy. Look, that meeting was not going too badly. Zelenskyy was enduring, you know, the occasional slights about his wardrobe, which one U.S. official said to me was a poor choice, given how they believe Trump views people should dress formally in meetings like this.
But it was really when J. D. Vance stepped in and began to deliver something of a lecture on diplomacy to President Zelenskyy who has adequate experience of Russian diplomacy and how that has not really led anything to other than Russia pursuing its military goals over the past decade that things got heated and then spiraled out of control.
There are real concerns here in Kyiv that we are going to see some radical change in support, military aid, without which with Washington behind him, I think many here are deeply concerned there will be a stark change on the frontlines, erosion and morale or recruitments, even key things that they simply cannot see change when Russia is advancing so incrementally on the frontlines All of this has been music to the Kremlin's ears.
And look, you know, we talk so much about this as powerful people falling out, being mean to each other on social media. But 47 civilians in Ukraine died since Trump called, falsely, Zelenskyy a dictator, and 222 have been injured. That's just civilians in Ukraine from Russian strikes. Hundreds have died on the frontlines. And it's likely those numbers will significantly increase in the weeks ahead, as the fallout from this extraordinary meeting broadens.
SCIUTTO: And we should note, the moment that was taken as apparent disrespect from J. D. Vance, which prompted his interjection, was merely the Ukrainian president citing the fact that Russia had signed ceasefires before and violated those ceasefires going back to 2014. Nick Paton Walsh in Kyiv, thanks so much.
For more Ukrainian reaction, Oleksandr Merezhko joins me now. He is the chair of the Ukrainian Parliament's Foreign Affairs Committee. Thanks so much for taking the time tonight.
OLEKSANDR MEREZHKO, UKRAINIAN PARLIAMENT'S FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE CHAIR: Thank you for inviting me.
SCIUTTO: So, my first question to you, does the Ukrainian Parliament have the president's back tonight? Are they backing him? Supporting him in his stance?
MEREZHKO: Absolutely. No doubt about this. We're proud of our president. We're proud that he has guts to stand up for Ukraine, for people of Ukraine. Even opposition has no doubts about our president. We support and we are united behind our president.
But at the same time, we hope that wisdom, common sense will prevail. And we understand that even between friends, between closest allies can be some misunderstandings or difference of opinions, but it should be solved in constructive way. And I hope that the solution for this can be the visit of President Trump to Kyiv. He should see for himself what's going on. He likes to refer to President Biden, but President Biden was courageous person who came to Kyiv. And I'm sure that President Trump also has courage to come to Kyiv and to see for himself what's going on.
SCIUTTO: I wonder though, when you heard the way Trump and Vance described this war, Vance described those visits from American officials as propaganda visits. Trump did not utter a single word critical of Vladimir Putin. He did not even assign blame for the deaths in Ukraine to the Russian invasion. He states simply that people are dying. Do you believe, does the Ukrainian parliament believe that Trump is a trustworthy peacemaker for Ukraine?
MEREZHKO: Well, I believe that he has potential to be a peacemaker, but we should talk about peace, just peace in the same way as it is described in the peace formula by President Zelenskyy. We're not talking about appeasement.
[18:20:00]
And I'm sure that President Trump doesn't want to be new Neville Chamberlain. He probably -- I hope, he wants to be a new FDR, new President Roosevelt. Because, you know, when he was talking about peace, I recalled the famous speech by another great president, President Reagan, who said once that it's very easy to have peace, just surrender, but we're not talking about this kind of piece of surrender because it would mean death for Ukraine. We're talking about just peace with security guarantees, with NATO membership.
And by the way for President Trump who promised to deliver on his promise to settle the issue within one day, the best -- the cheapest solution and the most effective is just to admit Ukraine to NATO.
SCIUTTO: Yes. As you watch this going forward, is there a way to resurrect this minerals deal and do you believe now that is the best path to a potential piece for Ukraine?
MEREZHKO: Well, it might be one of the ways because I believe that the more American companies we have in Ukraine, the better for our economy, the better for our security. Of course, this deal it's not the most reliable guarantee, security guarantee because NATO membership is the only one which would -- is capable to save us from extermination, which can guarantee our survival.
But as additional -- something additional, I think it's deal based on the mutual benefits for both countries is a good path.
SCIUTTO: The president himself, the vice president and a whole series of Trump administration officials and cabinet secretaries praised Trump for being strong in that meeting, strong in the face of the Ukrainian president. Did you see strength from the U.S. there as he was berating Zelenskyy?
MEREZHKO: Yes, I believe in strength. I believe in peace through strength, but I also believe in wisdom and maturity.
SCIUTTO: And you did not see maturity in that Oval Office meeting?
MEREZHKO: No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I see huge potential in President Trump in terms of helping Ukraine to survive and to defeat our common enemy, which is Russian evil empire, which is terrorist Putin.
SCIUTTO: Going forward, is it possible, if Trump and Putin say they meet and they come up with some plan to end the war but Ukraine -- the Ukrainian president, the Ukrainian parliament, see it as unfair to Ukraine, not guaranteeing its security, is Ukraine able -- is President Zelenskyy able to say, no, I won't sign it?
MEREZHKO: Well, I'm sure that President Trump will never go this path of appeasement of the aggressor because I'm sure that the United States, which is a democratic country, and President Trump himself have learned the lesson of 1938, that appeasement doesn't lead to peace. It opens the floodgate for the Third World War.
So, I don't believe that he would agree to any deals behind our back it's behind the back of Europe also. But at the same time, it's a truth that Ukrainian people are not kind of people which can allow someone to impose any agreement, which is detrimental to our security, to our future, to our life. It's absolutely out of the question. We have proved it many times and we continue our struggle, no matter how difficult it is. And we will continue.
Luckily, we have lots of friends in Europe, in the United States, majority of both Democrats and Republicans support Ukraine. And it gives me hope that together we will win.
SCIUTTO: Oleksandr Merezhko, we appreciate you joining, and as always, noting where you are in Ukraine and Kyiv still under attack, we wish you safety as well.
Well, European leaders have been responding in unison to the meeting between Trump and Zelenskyy. French President Emmanuel Macron told reporters that Russia was the aggressor. He got on the phone with Zelenskyy, Macron's message of support echoed by the leaders of Lithuania, Poland, Spain, and many more in succession.
Some suggested it threatened the United States standing as a superpower. The European Union's top diplomat, who I spoke with earlier this week, Kaja Kallas, posted on X, today, it became clear that the free world needs a new leader. Quite a remarkable statement from a U.S. treaty ally.
[18:25:00]
Coming up, Democrats are strongly criticizing President Trump over his handling, his berating of the Ukrainian leader. Their reaction to the Oval Office meeting coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. We are covering Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's explosive encounter at the White House. Zelenskyy spoke with U.S. President Donald Trump and other senior officials.
Before that meeting, they were in the Oval, devolved into a shouting match. President Trump and Vice President J. D. Vance scolding the Ukrainian president for, in their opinion, not showing sufficient gratitude to the U.S. The meeting ended with Trump ordering President Zelenskyy and his team to leave early. The two did not sign, as planned, a deal on U.S. gaining access and money from Ukraine's natural resources.
Vice President Vance questioned whether Zelenskyy had demonstrated enough gratitude for U.S. support. Here's some of the comments the Ukrainian leader made while visiting Washington in the past. We should note he has thanked the U.S. before, multiple times.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENSKYY: Dear Americans, in all states, cities, and communities, all those who value freedom and justice, who cherish it as strongly as we Ukrainians in all our cities, in each and every family, I hold my words of respect and gratitude resonate in each American heart.
Thanks, bipartisan support. Thanks, Congress. And thanks from our just ordinary people to your ordinary people, Americans. I really appreciate it.
And we are grateful to America for supporting Ukraine all along.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Democratic Congressman Mike Quigley said on X, we are a fundamentally different country than a few weeks ago and unrecognizable to our allies. Congressman Quigley, who is also a co- chair of the Ukraine Caucus, the Congressional Ukraine Caucus, joins me now.
Thanks so much for taking the time.
REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL), CO-CHAIR, U.S. CONGRESSIONAL UKRAINE CAUCUS: Thank you. I think I want to add, and we are fundamentally alone and less safe in the world as a result of our activities in the last several weeks.
[18:30:00]
SCIUTTO: I want to get to that about the broader withdrawal under the Trump administration from decades old U.S. alliances. But first, on this moment, the Oval Office. What now? Is the Trump administration out of these peace negotiations? Is it going to let Ukraine dangle in effect?
QUIGLEY: Well, look, it all benefits Putin, but I certainly think they're aiming to dangle them and make them feel the squeeze in relation to gratitude. I saw your piece. I've met with Zelenskyy seven times since the war started. I met with Ukrainian military officials yesterday in D.C., probably 50 other meetings with them and the military. Every meeting started with thank you. SCIUTTO: Yes.
QUIGLEY: And I suspect the president wanted Zelenskyy to say thank you at a time when you could argue he was being extorted for the second time. You know, you're going to do this mineral deal if you want us to help even without security assurances? There's a certain insanity to all this and I think a certain victim blaming. The aggrieved party here in an upside-down Treaty of Versailles notion, the country invaded is going to pay reparations in a way.
So, if that's the world we're living in, then I suspect anything's possible, including holding Ukraine out there, understanding that Putin wins.
SCIUTTO: We've seen unanimous European support among U.S. allies, with perhaps the exception of Trump friend Viktor Orban in Hungary, but from others, Macron, from the U.K. and elsewhere. Can Europe back Ukraine sufficiently now to fill the void from the U.S.?
QUIGLEY: Yes. I mean, most of the military experts I've talked to suggest that they simply can't. One of the things the war did was peel the veneer off of the U.S. and Europe's military industrial capabilities. There are economic issues as well. They've contributed over half the aid more than the United States. But the ability to do more at this time, I just don't see it.
And again, Putin understands that. Putin can be patient. He's getting help from North Korea. He's getting help from Iran. So, the waiting game helps him. President Biden always said, however long it takes. Zelenskyy rightfully said help us win quickly. So, this dangling -- this, you know, threat of not doing anything if you don't go along with the extortion makes it extremely difficult for Ukraine to succeed.
SCIUTTO: Is going along with the extortion, in effect, Ukraine's best option at this point, putting Zelenskyy, putting his tail between his legs, giving Trump what he wants just to keep the path to a settlement open, right? Because we should note, the mineral deal had no security guarantees attached to it. So, it's really just for the option of an agreeable plan. But is that Ukraine's best choice, best course at this time?
QUIGLEY: Look, I think just to keep things going, that's probably why I felt they were part of this negotiations. I didn't see what was happening behind the scenes and why it didn't get signed. But I have to imagine the Trump administration isn't getting better and warmer and more helpful.
As you see with the U.N. vote and the comments made about Zelenskyy and his legitimacy, for example, they're moving in the opposite direction. So, it's safe to assume that there was nothing to this deal, but something worse, and you know, if the president is only going to question his legitimacy, and never, ever question Putin, who came from KGB, who is a vicious tyrant, who murders his enemies, who invaded and committed extraordinary war crimes, you know, we have a president of the United States, and as I said at the opening, we are fundamentally different, we're backing the bad guys now.
SCIUTTO: Yes, and moving away from allies across Europe it seems.
QUIGLEY: Well, here's the final question. Do we have any allies anymore? If we want to go into a tariff war with our closest, literally, figuratively, Mexico and Canada, we tell NATO they're on their own. Do we have any friends, right? The old expression. It's true in diplomacy more than anything. If you want friends, you have to be one. Who are we a friend to now?
And if you just took the collective statements and actions of the president of the United States in his time in office, the first time and the few weeks he's had now, we are closest to Putin than any other country I'm aware of.
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Mr. President, prove me wrong. Show me where we're being friends with any other country. And we're not being -- we're not normalizing relations with any other country so quickly with no concessions. The art of the deal hogwash. You don't do a deal like this publicly and capitulate.
We used to ask, does Putin have something on Trump? Well, you know, the first term when I was on the Intel Committee analyzing this, you know, I don't know that he does. He acts like he does. But I'll say this, I think he admires Putin. And in these measures toward autocracy that he's moving toward, I think he respects him.
SCIUTTO: Well, his rhetoric is certainly in line with Putin's. Congressman Mike Quigley, thanks so much.
QUIGLEY: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: And we'll be right back.
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SCIUTTO: Returning now to our top story, the fiery White House exchange between President Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. No one expected the meeting to be easy. It began with Trump criticizing Zelenskyy's dress sense for not wearing a suit. It finished with acrimony and an unsigned minerals deal with one U.S. official telling CNN the relationship between the two men seems irreparable. This was the table where they were supposed to have signed that deal.
European nations, Poland, Spain, Germany, Moldova. Lithuania, Estonia, all offered public support to Ukraine. While for different reasons, Russia called the exchange historic. It was celebrating it. Here's some more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards. ZELENSKYY: We're not playing cards. I'm very serious, Mr. President.
TRUMP: Right now, you don't -- you're playing cards. You're playing cards. You're gambling with the lives of millions of people.
ZELENSKYY: You think --
TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III.
ZELENSKYY: What are you talking about? What are you talking about?
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TRUMP: You're gambling with World War III. And what you're doing is very disrespectful to the country, this country.
ZELENSKYY: I'm with all respect.
TRUMP: That's back to you, far more than a lot of people said they should have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Tonight, listen to that familiar sound in Kyiv tonight. At about midnight, air raid sirens rang out across the city, audible from CNN's position there. Signs of yet another Russian attack, which we should note, they have not abated. In these last several days, weeks, as Trump and others have discussed a possible peace.
And this just in, Ukrainian President Zelenskyy answered questions on Fox News just moments ago. Listen to how he responded to Bret Baier, the anchor, when asked about getting to a peace deal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRET BAIER, ANCHOR, FOX NEWS: President Trump is convinced that you will never sign a deal with Vladimir Putin. Is he right?
ZELENSKYY: No, I think so. What I think, Ukraine wants peace and we will have any way diplomacy, we will have negotiations. I only said that, I think so, it's about just and lasting peace. It's meant that we have be -- we have to be very strong at the table of negotiations. And at these negotiations, Ukraine and Russia, like sides of this war, have to be, and the United States and Europe. That's what I said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Fox also asked Zelenskyy if he regretted how things went today inside the Oval Office.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BAIER: Wouldn't this dynamic, if you're going to be like this, be behind closed doors? Not --
ZELENSKYY: Of course. And not -- BAIER: So, do you regret that? Are you regretting that that happened
today?
ZELENSKYY: Regretting? Yes, I think it was not good. I think it was not good. Because we had a lot of different dialogues. I'm not -- I'm always open to media, but there are very sensitive things. I just want to be honest and I just want our partners to understand the situation correctly. And I want to understand everything correctly. That's about us, not to lose our friendship.
BAIER: A couple more --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Joining me now is Kurt Volker, he's a former U.S. special representative for Ukraine Negotiations. Kurt, thanks so much for joining.
KURT VOLKER, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO, FORMER U.S. SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR UKRAINE NEGOTIATIONS, DISTINGUISHED FELLOW, CENTER FOR EUROPEAN POLICY ANALYSIS AND SENIOR ADVISER, ATLANTIC COUNCIL: Thank you. Great to be with you.
SCIUTTO: There was some reading that Trump and team were looking for apology from Zelenskyy in that Fox News interview. There's a reason foreign leaders get interviewed on Fox News because they know the president is often watching. Did you hear words from Zelenskyy there that might open the door to repairing events from earlier today?
VOLKER: Unfortunately, not in that interview. I think you're absolutely right. I think that's Bret Baier was trying to give him the opportunity to reframe this and to get back on track. I don't think Zelenskyy fully appreciates the way this meeting in the Oval Office has played out thus far.
I would emphasize something that President Zelenskyy did say, and I think that he needs to reflect on and come back with, is this agreement that should have been signed today is in Ukraine's interest, and it's in the United States interest, and it aligns our interest going forward. That should be sufficient.
And it was President Zelenskyy who zeroed in on this issue of security assurances, which President Trump has telegraphed he's not ready to talk about. And I think that's what set this all off in the wrong direction.
SCIUTTO: You know the facts of this war. You know that Russia invaded Ukraine. You know that Zelenskyy is not a dictator, he's the elected leader of his country. And I just spoke to a member of the parliament who said the parliament has his back now. You know that Russia interfered in the 2016 election which Trump, again, denied the facts of that.
Why does a Ukrainian leader at war, three years into a war, have to listen to the U.S. president utter so many falsehoods about the war? Who knows the war better than the leader of the country that's currently being attacked by Russia? Why does he have to endure that and then apologize?
VOLKER: Right. It's not so much -- it's not at all, in fact, whether you know, Trump is saying those things and he shouldn't, it is Zelenskyy being focused on the goal. He needs to align American support for Ukraine in the Trump administration, continued military equipment and ammunition, find a sustainable political basis for doing that, not just taxpayer aid, but a more sustainable basis and keep working. He has to stay focused on that goal.
[18:45:00]
And to spend the time in the Oval Office arguing those points where, of course, he's right, it doesn't matter. It creates the wrong dynamic for dealing with this administration and getting what he actually wants.
SCIUTTO: Before we go, do you believe, based on President Trump's public positions, not just in that meeting, but recently as well, since he's been re-elected, and even prior, the way he's talked about Ukraine. He does not say Ukraine is central to U.S. national security, he says it's effectively Europe's problem. And his framing of the war is closer to Russia's than, frankly, that of U.S. allies in Europe. Can Ukraine trust the U.S. to be a fair peacemaker in this war?
VOLKER: I think what we're looking at here is the U.S. having changed the dynamics. We were on the course of continued status quo in Ukraine, slow grinding war of attrition, no end in sight. President Trump has changed that. He's pressed for a ceasefire from Vladimir Putin. He has pressed for reciprocity from Ukraine, for the American taxpayer. He's pressed for a deterrent capability to be in Ukraine. European forces taking the lead in that. And he's pressed for better burden sharing from European allies.
To me, all of those things are American interests, and they're also achievable. And I saw Starmer and Macron at the White House this week. They got it. They played along with that. I think that Zelenskyy, despite being right about these things, despite being the one who has suffered Russian aggression, he could have and still should find a way to work with that formula to get what he needs for Ukraine.
SCIUTTO: What concessions has the Trump administration asked for Russia -- from Russia as part of that formula?
VOLKER: Yes, I don't know. Those were in private closed-door meetings. Russia has clearly made maximalist demands, saying that they want to take over all of Ukraine. They want to remove Zelenskyy from office. They want to see a demilitarized Ukraine. They want to see a commitment that it'll never be a NATO. So, all of those things are what Russia has demanded. And there's no indication the Trump administration is going along with any of these.
And indeed, if Russia wants to get its territory back in Kursk that Ukraine controls, there ought to be some kind of trading going on. But we haven't even gotten to that point yet. We haven't gotten to a point where Putin is agreeing that there's going to be negotiations or that there's going to be a ceasefire. And I think that's what Trump has been trying to do, is get Putin to that point. We're not there now, and I think now Putin takes a lot of encouragement from this blown-up meeting in the White House today.
SCIUTTO: Kurt Volker, thanks so much for joining us this evening.
VOLKER: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: All right. Well, after the break, what Republicans are saying about the Oval Office meeting.
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[18:50:00]
SCIUTTO: Welcome back. We are continuing our coverage of President Trump's meeting with President Zelenskyy of Ukraine just hours ago. Several Republican lawmakers rallying behind the U.S. president, as they often do. House Speaker Mike Johnson saying he was putting America first. Secretary of State Marco Rubio, who in the past has criticized Russia for its invasion of Ukraine, heaped on the praise, saying Trump was standing up for America.
Not everyone though, Nebraska Congressman Don Bacon serves on the House Armed Services Committee. He was also a one-star general in the Air Force. He called the White House meeting a bad day for America's foreign policy. A rare Republican voice critical of the president's demeanor there.
Larry Sabato is the Director of the Center for Politics at the University of Virginia. He joins me now. And, Larry, I wonder, you know, we have watched the politics On Ukraine change in this country over the last three years when I was there at the start of the invasion returned home, it was a broad bipartisan support, broad public support. Trump is different. He repeats the justification for the war of Vladimir Putin.
Where does the American public stand? What's the best measure we have is where the American public stands on this war in Ukraine?
LARRY SABATO, DIRECTOR, CENTER FOR POLITICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA AND EDITOR, "RETURN TO NORMALCY?": All we have so far, Jim, is pre- Oval Office blowout, and I'm going to be very interested to see if this changed any minds. Now, we know Republicans will generally follow Trump. So, I would expect a majority, how big a majority, I don't know, a majority of Republicans to side with him. But I'll tell you something, Jim, I think Democrats are going to be virtually unanimous, and a sizable majority of independents are going to side with Zelenskyy rather than with Trump.
This was just shocking to see. It was, at the very least, rude and undiplomatic. And more than that, the big winner was Putin. And Americans have been pretty clear about Putin. The last approval rating I saw for Putin among the American public was 9 percent, 9. 91 percent negative.
SCIUTTO: You know, folks will often say voters don't really care about foreign policy, but you know better than me that Joe Biden's approval rating took a dive that he never recovered from following the disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan. Do you see a similar danger for President Trump here if he were to abandon Ukraine, particularly if we were to see Ukraine fall to Russia?
SABATO: Oh, absolutely. And we've had these events throughout American history. You know, who lost China? We all remember Vietnam and all the rest of it. It can have an impact, even if people don't mention it. They talk about prices. They're worried about eggs. But when you get right down to it, events like this shape the image of a presidency and of a president.
And while Republicans may have liked it, I don't think it presented a very good image of either Trump or Vance.
SCIUTTO: Is there anything -- listen, as you know, there are a lot of Republican congressmen and senators who support Ukraine, and know it is wrong to refuse to call Russia the aggressor in this invasion, et cetera. But, the vast majority of them are too scared to say so publicly, because they don't want to get on the other side of the president. They're afraid of being primaried, getting targeted, et cetera.
Is there a point when politically -- let's forget principle for a moment here, because we're in Washington, but a moment when politically it would be, if not in their advantage, at least less risky for Republicans to challenge the president on this?
SABATO: Sure. This is where public opinion polls come in. And not just the overall numbers, what Republican rank and file are saying, if they ever move against Trump on this issue, then you will see a few profiles encouraged, maybe more than a few, although, as you just noted correctly, most Republican congressmen and senators have the backbone of a banana.
SCIUTTO: Yes, yes. We've seen a lot today, as you know, Larry Saputo. Thanks so much for joining. I hope you get a weekend.
SABATO: Thank you so much. Appreciate it, Jim.
SCIUTTO: And thanks so much to all of you for joining me today. I'm Jim Sciutto in Washington. Please do stay with CNN.
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