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CNN International: Zelenskyy Leaves White House Early After Tense Meeting; Trump-Zelenskyy Meeting Devolves into Shouting Match; European Leaders Back Ukraine After Oval Office Clash; European Leaders Back Ukraine After Oval Office Clash; Vatican: Pope Put On Breathing Machine After Sudden Episode. Aired 4-5p ET
Aired February 28, 2025 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[16:00:27]
JIM SCIUTTO CNN HOST: Good evening. An extraordinary, a disturbing moment in the Oval Office. Tensions between President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy coming to a very public head today in the White House.
A White House official says that Zelenskyy was told to leave after heated words exchanged between him and Trump and the Vice President Vance.
After leaving, Zelenskyy posted on X, "Thank you, America. Thank you for your support. Thank you POTUS, Congress and the American people." Of course, JD Vance had berated him inside the Oval Office saying he wasn't sufficiently thankful. Plans to sign a minerals deal and hold a joint news conference were canceled.
That deal would have given the U.S. access to Ukraine's natural resources and money from those natural resources. Zelenskyy was hoping for some security guarantees in return, or perhaps at least the possibility for a security guarantee in return.
But the meeting in the Oval Office devolved into a shouting match. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Your country is in big trouble.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: I know.
TRUMP: You're not winning.
ZELENSKYY: I know.
TRUMP: You're not winning. You're not winning this.
You have a damn good chance of coming out okay because of us.
ZELENSKYY: We are staying, Mr. President, we are staying in our country, staying strong from the very beginning of the war. We've been alone and we are thankful, I said thanks in this Cabinet.
TRUMP: You haven't been alone.
ZELENSKYY: I moved around this Cabinet.
TRUMP: You haven't been alone. We gave you through this stupid President, $350 billion.
ZELENSKYY: You voted for your president.
TRUMP: We gave you military equipment.
ZELENSKYY: You voted for your president.
TRUMP: You and your men are brave, but they had to use our military. If you didn't have our military equipment --
ZELENSKYY: You invited me --
TRUMP: If you didn't have our military equipment, this war would have been over in two weeks.
ZELENSKYY: In three days, this is something --
TRUMP: Thank you --
ZELENSKYY: In two weeks. Of course, yes.
TRUMP: It is going to be a very hard thing to do business like this. I can tell you.
JD VANCE (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You can just say thank you --
TRUMP: I said a lot of thanks to the American people.
VANCE: Accept that -- accept that there are disagreements and lets go litigate those disagreements rather than trying to fight it out in the American media when you're wrong.. We know that you're wrong.
TRUMP: But you see, I think it is good for the American people to see what's going on here. I think it is very important. That's why I kept this going so long.
You have to be thankful --
ZELENSKYY: I am thankful.
TRUMP: You don't have the cards. You're buried there. You're people are dying.
ZELENSKYY: I can tell you, I know.
TRUMP: You're running low on soldiers. Listen.
ZELENSKYY: Don't -- don't -- please, Mr. President. TRUMP: You're running low on soldiers. It would be a damn good thing. And then you -- and then you tell us, I don't want a ceasefire. I don't want a ceasefire. I want to go, and I want this --
Look, if you can get a ceasefire right now, I tell you, you take it, so the bullets stop flying and your men stop getting killed.
ZELENSKYY: Of course, we want to stop the war.
TRUMP: But you're saying you don't want a ceasefire.
ZELENSKYY: But I said to you --
TRUMP: I want a ceasefire.
ZELENSKYY: -- with guarantees.
TRUMP: Because you get a ceasefire faster than any agreement.
ZELENSKYY: Ask our people about ceasefire. What they think.
TRUMP: There wasn't with me. That wasn't with me.
ZELENSKYY: It doesn't matter for you.
TRUMP: That was with a guy named Biden who was not a smart person.
ZELENSKYY: This is your --
TRUMP: That was with Obama.
ZELENSKYY: It was your president.
TRUMP: Excuse me, that was with Obama, who gave you sheets and I gave you javelins.
ZELENSKYY: Yes.
TRUMP: I gave you the javelins to take out all of those tanks. Obama gave you sheets. In fact, the statement is Obama gave sheets and Trump gave javelins. You've got to be more thankful because let me tell you, you don't have the cards. With us, you have the cards, but without us, you don't have any cards.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: That is the U.S. president berating the elected leader of Ukraine, which of course is suffering through the third year, now entering its fourth year of Russia's full scale invasion of its country.
Kevin Liptak joins me now.
Kevin, that was quite a spectacle. I imagine there is quite a sense of crisis in Ukraine today, but also among Ukraine's many supporters in this country who are bipartisan, or at least they have been in the past.
Tell me what the White House position is now after this? Is any minerals deal with Ukraine off the table now?
KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: I don't know that its off the table for good, but it is certainly off the table today. That didn't get signed before Zelenskyy left the White House.
I think when you talk to White House advisers, they say the President genuinely felt disrespected. Just to give you some color on what happened between when the cameras stopped rolling in the Oval Office and when we saw Zelenskyy departing in his SUV.
The two sides went to different rooms in the West Wing. There had been a lunch planned, so they were actually getting the food prepared over near the Cabinet room. President Trump consulted with some of his advisers, including the Secretary of State, his National Security adviser.
[16:05:06]
The word from the Ukrainians at that point was that they actually wanted to keep talking. There was a sense, perhaps, that they would be able to repair some of the damage, but Trump wasn't going to have that, and he essentially sent word that it was time for them to go.
I think it is fair to say that he kicked them out of the White House, and then we saw Zelenskyy leaving about an hour later.
They had, as I said, planned to sign this minerals deal. There was a long wooden table up in the East Room ready for the men to sit down. The pens were out. They were expecting to have a press conference, that obviously all gone out the window.
And I think the question now is what happens next? You know, there had been this effort on the part of the President to try and negotiate a deal to end this conflict, but I don't know how you could possibly end the war there if you have just had a shouting match with one of the sides of the war in the Oval Office.
One thing that we have seen from the White House is really trying to bolster the President's stance. They sent out a press release saying that he was defending America, and they sent one of his top allies, Senator Lindsey Graham, out to the White House driveway to insist that Zelenskyy resign. He is essentially saying that the U.S. no longer has a good faith negotiating partner in Kyiv.
But I will just note that's exactly the same outcome that the Kremlin has wanted all along. They want Zelenskyy out of power, too, so it is kind of hard to read how all of this is playing is not playing directly into the hands of Putin.
So it was an unprecedented spectacle. You know, I've been in the Oval Office a lot for these meetings, watched a lot of them. I would never have expected to see the President of the United States partnering with his Vice President, berating their visitors, much less a wartime visitor who is coming to seek security guarantees.
And I do think, you know, this final point, that the role of the Vice President in all of this, you know, typically in these meetings, he has been sort of seated by silently as the President and his counterpart talk. He didn't speak for most of this meeting when it was only sort of at the end that he piped up and really threw a match on the whole situation.
And I just -- Vance is someone who has long been skeptical of Ukraine. He said at one point over the last couple of years that he didn't really care what happened there and I think there are a lot of people watching this today and are wondering, you know, was Vance's role in all of this organic or was it orchestrated somehow to kind of throw a wrench in all of these plans.
SCIUTTO: You're saying, is that speculation, or are you saying that there are indications that this was a provocation, in effect?
LIPTAK: Well, you know, I think in reality, it is probably something in between the two. But there is certainly some people close to the White House who are just wondering whether or not that that moment was one that just came about as part of this meeting.
Because when you watch how it unfolded, the meeting was going relatively well, up until that point. There was no signs of this outward hostility that we saw in the final 10 minutes. It really only came about once Vance piped up, and once Vance started engaging with Zelenskyy and Zelenskyy responding in his own way.
And so I think it is a question that a lot of people -- a lot of people very close to this White House are asking.
SCIUTTO: One question, you witnessed this. Did President Trump or Vice President Vance say anything critical about Russia during this meeting? Identify Russia as the country that invaded Ukraine; criticized the Russian President Vladimir Putin?
LIPTAK: No, quite the opposite. I think what you heard from President Trump was continuing the praise, not necessarily praise, but the credulous attitude towards Putin that he has adopted throughout the course of this week, saying essentially that he trusted him to carry out any sort of peace agreement.
But what is fascinating is the reason he says he trusts him is because, in his words, they both endured what he calls the Russia hoax, which I think just gives you a sense of where this alliance in his mind is coming from.
SCIUTTO: Listen, he is denying that Russia interfered in the 2016 election, which U.S. Intelligence agencies found quite confidently. He is, in effect repeating his Helsinki moment.
Kevin Liptak at the White House. Thank you so much.
LIPTAK: Sure. SCIUTTO: Joining us now is Alexander Rodnyansky, former economic adviser to President Zelenskyy; also associate professor of Economics at the University of Cambridge and he joins us now.
And Alexander, I truly appreciate you joining, particularly following what must have been a very difficult moment for you to watch knowing what Ukraine has been through in the three years since Russia's full scale invasion.
What is your reaction to seeing that moment?
ALEXANDER RODNYANSKY, FORMER ECONOMIC ADVISER TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY: Absolutely. It is disturbing to see what happened. It is obviously shocking, taking us all aback. But look, I mean, this is all rhetoric. There is clearly some bad blood between the two leaders.
[16:10:07]
Hopefully we can resolve this. We obviously need our partners. We need our support from the United States. Ukraine needs it. So let's see what happens in terms of the actions next.
SCIUTTO: Did President Zelenskyy, in your view do the right thing in standing up to Trump and Vance's inaccurate, I believe we can say description of the nature of this war?
RODNYANSKY: Look, I think there were too many emotions on both sides to be honest, and I wouldn't want to get into this.
I think it is unnecessary, obviously, to bring up previous presidents, previous administrations. I think that's obviously not constructive, given where we are and Ukraine is in a bad place.
On the other hand, you need to keep your cool no matter what is being said and I think that's also important, especially given the seriousness of these discussions and what's at stake.
So hopefully we can concentrate on the actions going forward and work together constructively.
SCIUTTO: Are you saying that President Zelenskyy lost his cool?
RODNYANSKY: Look, I am not saying anything. I think there were emotions on both sides and emotions in a state like this, in a situation like this for Ukraine that's fighting for its survival are not helpful, right? You need to have -- you're obviously relying on your reasoning here and on rational thinking first and foremost.
SCIUTTO: You heard there Lindsey Graham, Republican senator who at times has been close to President Trump, calling for President Zelenskyy to step down. What is your reaction to that? And how do you think the Ukrainian public will react to that suggestion?
RODNYANSKY: Well, the Ukrainian public certainly is not going to welcome pressure from the outside, no matter whether they were supportive of similar solutions before or not. It is just not a constructive way of dealing with the Ukrainian public, pressure from the outside, or some sort of intrusion from the outside, or something that might be perceived as intrusion into the politics, internal politics of Ukraine, so that's number one.
Number two, if you ask me what is going to happen going forward, that's actually not clear. There is a lot of uncertainty now as to what exactly will unfold. Will this cause political turbulences within Ukraine as a result of this animosity between the two leadership, the two leaders? Possibly, and that could lead to political change within Ukraine, that the Russians will then exploit, obviously.
So this is hard to say at this point. Obviously, this is a crisis and it is not helping Ukraine. It is not helping prevail in this war effort.
SCIUTTO: Yes, and we should note, as you know better than me, I am sure Russia has repeatedly interfered in Ukrainian elections and often attacked those who challenged Russia's intentions for the country.
Alexander Rodnyansky, thanks so much for joining us.
RODNYANSKY: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Well, our Matthew Chance is in Moscow, and I wonder, Matthew, how Russia is receiving this meeting, particularly how it is being covered in the Russian media, but also any statements you've heard from Russian officials?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, there have been a few public Russian statements, although the Kremlin hasn't come out yet and said what its view is.
But I can tell you that privately, Jim, I've been speaking to Russian officials, ordinary Russians as well in the hours after this sort of spectacle unfolded in the Oval Office, and I can tell you, they, without fail, all said that they were absolutely gob-smacked to see national leaders in this way, speaking to each other like this in such argumentative tones.
It is just not something that they thought would they would witness. Not the kind of diplomatic, you know, kind of language that they're used to seeing, and so everybody pretty shocked.
Having said that in public, the statements coming from Russian officials have all been very supportive, as you might expect, of the White House. I've got a few of them here.
The spokesperson for the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova, saying that how Trump and Vance restrained themselves and didn't hit this scoundrel is a miracle of self-control. There has been a senator that's called it a brilliant result. The fact that Zelenskyy was kicked out of the White House.
You've also got Dmitry Medvedev, who is, you know, in fairness, known for his outlandish statements, but he said this. He is the former Russian president, by the way: The insolent pig finally got a proper slap down in the Oval Office.
And so, you know, some very sort of anti-Zelenskyy, as you might expect, pro-White House sentiments being expressed by Russian officials publicly at the moment -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: Matthew Chance in Moscow, thanks so much.
Well, there is a fair amount of finger pointing of all kinds in the wake of today's Oval Office clash. We are going to discuss what went wrong and what may follow, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:17:25]
SCIUTTO: We return now to our top story: The heated meeting, to say the least, between Donald Trump and Volodymyr Zelenskyy in the Oval Office at the White House.
A U.S. official observed that meeting said there were signs of trouble as soon as Zelenskyy arrived earlier today, wearing his trademark shirt instead of a suit. A reporter asked Zelenskyy about his wardrobe before the leaders got into a tense exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENSKYY: I will wear a costume after this war will finish.
TRUMP: Okay.
ZELENSKYY: Yes, maybe something --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe something like this.
ZELENSKYY: Maybe something like yours, yes. Maybe some something better, I don't know. We will see. Maybe something cheaper.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Our Nick Paton Walsh is in Kyiv, and, Nick, I am sure you've been getting a slew of reactions from officials and members of the public there. How did they see this moment?
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, Jim, my phone has just been a litany of people with their head in their hands in a text fashion. I mean, its extraordinary.
The moment you raised there about the wardrobe choice, a suggestion that from a U.S. official that maybe this wasn't the time for Zelenskyy to wear his trademark shirt there with the Ukrainian signature.
He has worn a green version of that pretty much since the war began. Recently, a black long sleeve worn more commonly. It is sort of his look. And you heard him there in always perfect English. Remember, he is in this heated exchange with two men in their fluent native language, and his English has massively improved.
But I think, a wardrobe choice appears to have grated with the President. This U.S. official suggesting that it is something that Trump specifically may not have appreciated.
A separate source saying that, you know, at this point, there is not much they think they can do, this U.S. official to fix the relationship. That's down to Zelenskyy to do.
And a separate source familiar with the negotiations here suggesting that, in fact, it was Zelenskyy's team who were pushing for the Oval Office meeting and some other parts of the U.S. government suggesting that maybe the relationship between Trump and Zelenskyy wasn't strong enough to endure that. Well, we got the answer to that quite quickly there.
Since Zelenskyy has left, we understand from a Ukrainian source that he has spoken to French President Emmanuel Macron. Remember, he was the peacemaker at the beginning of this whiplash of a week that got Zelenskyy invited by Trump to the White House, and we have also heard that he has picked to turn to NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte, and the European Council President Costa.
So a lot that's been moving diplomatically. The Europeans are releasing a litany of statements in support of Ukraine. But the ultimate question being after Lindsey Graham has cast doubts over the future of Zelenskyy, quite how they fix this, because there is no doubt here that Ukraine probably cannot endure without U.S. assistance.
[16:20:17]
Europe is making strong statements today that maybe it can use frozen assets according to the Estonian Foreign Minister, to perhaps fill the gap from American aid, but it is going to be tough and even the Europeans accept that their peacekeeping force needs an American backstop, so to speak, of logistics.
So it is an exceptionally tough time ahead and I think now, the debate inside Ukraine will potentially intensify. A lot of support initially for Zelenskyy, but did he handle this perfectly? How do they move forwards? How do they fix this relationship. And Jim, put all this aside, there is a war raging here, 200 drones attacked Ukraine last night. We will probably see that again. We will see the frontline change, morale ebb and strong questions as to how Ukraine can persevere with this key plank of his assistance in doubt -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: Truly remarkable to berate the leader of the country as his country is being attacked, as that diatribe is being laid out.
Nick Paton Walsh in Kyiv, thanks so much.
Steven Pifer was the U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine under President Clinton. He joins me now. You've been an ambassador for many decades, a diplomat, I am sure, in many difficult meetings and moments among world leaders. Have you ever seen a U.S. leader involved in a moment such as that with, we should note, an ally?
STEVEN PIFER, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UKRAINE UNDER PRESIDENT CLINTON: I don't think we've ever seen anything like this take place in the Oval Office. This was a bad day for Ukraine. It was a very good day for Moscow.
I would also argue, though, it was a bad day for American national interests, because if Russia beats Ukraine, either on the battlefield or in a shoddy negotiation, Russia will pose a larger threat to Europe and the United States. And I watched the video of the meeting, and it seemed to me that it was going quite well until the Vice President JD Vance, almost intentionally tried to provoke a fight.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Let me ask you this. What happens now? I imagine there is a flurry of conversations back and forth, although it is not clear the White House wants those conversations, given that they kicked Zelenskyy and his team out and they left.
Is there a way to resurrect this minerals agreement? Or when you hear Lindsey Graham say Zelenskyy should resign, does that become the new policy of this administration attempting to force out the elected leader of Ukraine?
PIFER: Well, if the American policy is to push Zelenskyy out as President, what they are going to find is the Ukrainian population, which gave Zelenskyy, you know, I think it was a 63 percent approval rating a couple of weeks ago is going to unite even more firmly behind him. So, you know, that would not be a successful American policy.
SCIUTTO: It is a good point, because there has even been some speculation analysis here in the wake of Musk's and Vance's comments about the AfD in Germany, that while it still performed well, it didn't perform to the level of the pre-election polling, which can be quite accurate. There are questions as to whether that outside interference was actually helpful.
Let me ask you this more broadly, because there is more than just Trump seemingly abandoning Ukraine here going on. Trump and Trump officials have been saying to Europe as a whole, in effect, you are on your own and we know that that is being taken seriously because European leaders, among them the soon to be German Chancellor, but also other European leaders are saying we are on our own and have to defend ourselves without relying on the U.S.
Tell me about that shift, because that is not a small shift. That is a massive reversal of 80 years of bipartisan American foreign policy.
PIFER: Exactly. And what you've seen in the last several hours, though, is an outpouring of support by leader after leader after leader in Europe for Zelenskyy and Ukraine, because they understand that if Ukraine loses, you know, Vladimir Putin's ambitions may not just stop in Ukraine.
So I think the question that they are also asking is one, you know, what does this mean for broader American engagement with Europe? You know, if the United States is now throwing over Ukraine, what does that mean for the American commitment to NATO? You know, which I would argue has been a huge asset for the United States these past eight years.
And I think there is the question, you know, can -- in Washington, can they find a way to put this back on track? And here I would look to people like Secretary of State Rubio, and National Security Mike Waltz, they have significant experience from their time on Capitol Hill on foreign policy.
[16:25:10]
I think they 0have to understand that what happened today in the Oval Office and in the White House was not only bad for Ukraine, but was bad ultimately for American National Security interests.
Can they and then other traditional Republicans on Capitol Hill somehow persuade the White House to try to move past this? Because, again, in the grand scheme of things, supporting Ukraine is not just about supporting Ukraine, it is because it is an American national interest.
SCIUTTO: Yes, well, notably, Marco Rubio and others have praised the President in the wake of this meeting. The U.S. President that is, saying he stood up for American values. And we should note that that contradicts quite public support in the past from Rubio, Waltz, et cetera for Ukraine against Russia.
Well, we will see what happens in the days and weeks to come.
PIFER: If these are American values, it is a sad day for America.
SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, listen, I've never witnessed a leaders meeting like that, particularly a U.S. President meeting with an ally currently at war.
Steven Pifer, thanks so much for joining.
PIFER: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Well, here in the U.S., politicians reacting along party lines to today's clash in the Oval Office. One Democrat is calling Trump's behavior disgraceful. A leading Republican, on the other hand, says it was Zelenskyy who was not showing respect. We are going to discuss the political fallout coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SCIUTTO: Let's return now to our top story: A heated meeting between President Donald Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Reactions pouring in from both Democrats and leading Republicans.
Senator Lindsey Graham spoke to reporters outside the White House. He called the meeting a "complete and utter disaster," praising the way Trump handling it and saying Zelenskyy should resign.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): He was terrible at Munich, Zelenskyy, and I think he has made it almost impossible to sell to the American people that he is a good investment.
He either needs to resign and send somebody over that we can do business with, or he needs to change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[16:30:24]
SCIUTTO: Jeff Zeleny is at the White House now. And I wonder is that now the Trump administration policy to try to force Zelenskyy out of power? We should know. It was just last week, President Trump accused Zelenskyy, the elected leader of Ukraine of being a dictator. What does the White House stance now?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Jim, that is an excellent question, and I'm not sure we have an answer. But we must look to the clues that we have.
And Senator Lindsey Graham made those comments not far behind me here on the North Lawn of the White House, after he stepped out of the West Wing, after he had lunch with the president.
So, clearly, he is echoing the White House line here. They are trying to seize the upper hand, capitalize on what they view as a strength in the meeting. But what is unclear was, I mean, there are people who are wondering if this was all done by design.
Was Vice President J.D. Vance trying to blow up this deal and diminish Zelenskyy in some way? We don't know, but we do know that this meeting was going along fairly pleasant until the vice president spoke near the end, and then, Zelenskyy, obviously, clapped back at him.
But look, that is a central question for the president. We will see if he speaks to reporters when he leaves the White House in the next hour to fly down to Florida for a working weekend, he says at his Florida resort. But does he want Zelenskyy to resign? And it certainly that message from Graham there was clear.
But Jim, I've been struck by over the last several hours. The White House is really beating the drum here to make clear that they have the upper hand. That they showed strength. But the reality here is President Trump wanted to make a deal today. The deal was always a little bit unclear. As you well know, we've talked about before. It wasn't exactly clear what the mineral deal would be. It's unusual for there to be a signing ceremony without having a few more details, but they did indeed want a deal.
President Trump wanted to win. He didn't get that today. Vladimir Putin clearly got a win today. Beyond that, I'm not sure if anyone did.
So, at this moment, the White House is not saying if they want Zelenskyy to stay or not. All we are being pointed to is the president's words on that social media post. He said, President Zelenskyy can return when he is ready to make peace.
SCIUTTO: Jeff Zeleny at the White House. Thanks so much.
Let's get some more reaction from Capitol Hill. Joining me now is democratic congressman, Raja Krishnamoorthi.
I've covered a lot of administrations. I covered a lot of top-level state visits, meetings, summits, et cetera. I have not seen two adversaries shout at each other like that in a meeting.
But here you have a U.S. president next to a U.S. ally, defending itself against an ongoing Russian invasion, getting lecture to, berated. What was your reaction to witness that?
REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI (D-IL): It was shocking. I think that you know, the person that celebrated today is Putin. We just ended up siding with a communist dictatorship over a freedom loving democracy, and that makes all of us less safe, Jim, because it emboldens Putin. It makes him think that, you know, when the U.S. helps a friend or partner, an ally, that, you know, maybe we'll only be a fair-weather friend, and that will potentially allow or enable or encourage him to attack others, in which case it might involve in a NATO ally, and then, you know, American troops could be involved.
SCIUTTO: What happens now? You have a U.S. senator openly calling for the elected leader of a country under attack to step down. What's your reaction to hearing that pressure, in effect, to interfere right in Ukraine's politics?
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Well, that's not going to happen. And, as you know, the polls in Ukraine support Mr. Zelenskyy. But putting that aside for a second, I think we have to, right now, you know, Trump and Vance and Zelenskyy have some personality issues. We have to put the interest the United States above everything, and that is, we have to get to a negotiated agreement with regard to Ukraine.
The other party that is looking at today's exchange in the White House is China. And Xi Jinping and the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party. They are also looking at this very carefully, and they are also celebrating. And they are thinking, you know what, what if we were to move on Taiwan?
[16:35:04]
How would the United States act or behave or conduct itself with regard to Taiwan? Would it do the same thing to Taiwan that it's doing to Ukraine?
Today, Jim, we are moving toward conflict, both in Europe and the Indo Pacific, because of this White House encounter.
SCIUTTO: Yes. In my coverage over the last several years, travels, including to Taiwan, I have not met a single official, military commander did not make a connection between Taiwan and Ukraine.
I want to quote from a statement you posted on X, following this meeting, you said that our president, speaking of Trump, would rather curry fair favor with Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin and echo Russian talking points. Is that what you saw here? Do you think this is a deliberate effort by Trump to cozy up to, to please, in some way, the Russian president?
KRISHNAMOORTHI: I don't know. You know, I watched the exchange, and it looked like it kind of felt like they were going to get into a tussle over certain words, and I couldn't tell whether this was planned or deliberate or whatnot. But what I can -- what I can say is that just the image was just horrible, and it really does show weakness on our part, that we can't control a meeting and make sure that we get to yes with our friends, partners, and allies, even as we are about to help broker an agreement between them and our adversaries.
The last thing I was just going to say on that is, you know, if Trump tries to cut out Zelenskyy in trying to negotiate some kind of agreement with the Russians, that starts sounding like what happened with Afghanistan.
Remember, he cut out the Afghanistan government and negotiating with the Taliban a really horrible agreement.
(CROSSTALK)
SCIUTTO: Yes.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: If you recall. And guess what happened. This is exactly what's going to happen here. And this could be, you know, Trump's Afghanistan. He has got to put -- you know, cooler heads have got to prevail. Rubio, Waltz, others have got to get into this and basically say, look, this is not about personalities, it's about the security of the United States. Let's get back to the table. Let's hammer something out.
SCIUTTO: We have seen in the wake of this meeting, European leaders unanimously express public support for Zelenskyy in the wake of this. That is a very public split between the U.S. and its treaty allies in Europe, which, by the way, this is not the first day light we've seen.
We've seen a U.S. president say, in effect, defending Europe is up to you. And we've seen those European leaders say, this is the new normal. We cannot rely on the U.S.
Is that a bridge able gap, or is Trump here creating a rift, a break, with some of America's closest allies?
KRISHNAMOORTHI: It's a bridge able gap, but the more and more that they start to take self-help measures, then it becomes more of a rift, and one that's not bridgeable.
So, just as an example, one of the worst things that could happen is if countries within Europe start to militarize again, going against maybe what they wanted to do after World War II or that, that is embedded in their constitutions.
It would be the same as what's happening, for instance, in South Korea and Japan, where we see voices calling for nuclear weapons because we just look less reliable.
(CROSSTALK)
SCIUTTO: Yes.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: They don't think the nuclear umbrella is there for them. And the worst thing in the world that could happen in Europe is for Germany to change its constitution or do things that could re- militarize, and then you have bigger problems on our hands.
So, I think we need to step back, get the personalities out of this, and get the adults at the table and bring things back together.
SCIUTTO: Congressman Raja Krishnamoorthi, thanks so much for joining.
KRISHNAMOORTHI: Thank you so much.
SCIUTTO: Just after the break, we're going to speak to a Ukrainian minister who joined the war about today's extraordinary, quite disturbing White House meeting. Please do stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:42:13]
SCIUTTO: Back now to our top story. European leaders overwhelmingly backing Ukrainian President Zelenskyy after his Oval Office clash with President Trump. French President Emmanuel Macron, saying, there is an aggressor which is Russia and an attacked people, which is Ukraine.
Lithuania's president posted on X, "Ukraine, you'll never walk alone." The Polish prime minister, writing, "Dear Ukrainian friends, you are not alone." Spain's leader, "Ukraine, Spain stands with you." The German foreign minister writing, Ukraine is not alone.
Fabrice Pothier is the former director of policy planning at NATO. He is now CEO of Rasmussen Global. He joins us now from Hanover, Germany. Fabrice, good to have you here.
(CROSSTALK)
FABRICE POTHIER, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, RASMUSSEN GLOBAL: Good to be here.
SCIUTTO: Notable European unity in support of the Ukrainian president here. Is there an open rift now between the U.S. and Europe? Not just over Ukraine, but over Ukraine's security -- over Europe's security?
POTHIER: Well, I think the risk is wide open since few weeks, especially, since the Munich Security Conference, where it was pretty clear where this U.S. administration was standing on core questions, like Russia, Ukraine, but also, bringing the cultural war to Europe with J.D. Vance speech, which was really a big surprise for European leaders, that he did basically a form of political interference.
So, yes, there is a risk. But the question really facing both the Ukrainian leader and his European counterparts is what's next?
Well, do we have enough resources, short of the United States, to be able to manage this together and to be able to have a just peace that will allow Ukraine to strive as a sovereign and independent country? And I think of this is a huge question mark.
SCIUTTO: What's the answer to that question? I mean, the U.S., the military, is unrivaled because you have -- it's really two questions, does Europe have enough to sustain Ukraine? But the tougher one is, does Europe have enough to defend itself without the U.S.?
POTHIER: Yes. I mean, I think to the first question, I think on paper, Europe has enough to sustain Ukraine, both fiscally, but possibly also in terms of military aid, even though some U.S. systems are irreplaceable, especially the Patriot system, the air defense systems.
But there are ways around that, where you can -- you can, I think, find some alternatives. But to the second question, I think that's the most difficult is, Europe is not able to defend itself on its own terms without the U.S. support. So, in that context, how can Europe both defend Ukraine in a post war context, as well as Europe vis-a-vis and adversary that is as armed and as autocratic as Putin's Russia.
[16:45:05]
So, this is really the big -- the big question and the big difficult hour for not just Kyiv, but also European capitals.
SCIUTTO: If Europe can't defend itself alone, the options are what? Accommodation to Russian ambitions? Is it nuclear weapons? You've heard open discussion of expanding the nuclear arsenal in Europe. France, U.K., perhaps, sharing it with Germany. What are the options?
POTHIER: I think, yes. I think, Europe has to be willing to redraw some of these red lines and orthodoxy, both fiscally, I think, we'll have to be willing to spend possibly even up to four to five percent of our national GDP into defense.
Basically, we have to double what we're spending now.
And also, when it comes to the nuclear deterrent, we have to be able to develop a European alternative to the U.S. nuclear umbrella. And here, I think it's about France and possibly the United Kingdom sharing the nuclear deterrent and the nuclear planning with the other European countries. So that, as a minimum, you offer a European security to Europeans.
But this still a big question mark about, you know, while Trump is probably going to rush into a deal now that he's clearly seeing Zelenskyy are not going along his own terms, and would the question is, what will these terms be, and with these terms be manageable by both Ukraine and the Europeans?
SCIUTTO: That would Zelenskyy even sign on to such a deal, right that it sees as fundamentally against its security interests.
Fabrice Pothier, thanks so much for joining.
POTHIER: Pleasure.
SCIUTTO: More breaking news this hour, another story we're following closely. The Vatican says that Pope Francis suddenly suffered an episode of breathing difficulty earlier and was put on a breathing machine.
Officials say the pope remained alert and oriented at all time. Still, it's a distressing turn for the 88-year-old Pope who has been in the hospital in Rome for just over two weeks, receiving treatment for what doctors have described as double pneumonia.
Our Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb is in Rome. The news of him being put on a respirator is quite significant. I wonder, do doctors there think that this is only a temporary measure?
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, it is a setback for the pope tonight, because we had heard in recent days about the pope having a slight improvement in his condition.
Now, what a Vatican source said tonight is that it is still too soon to say whether there has been a general worsening in his condition. That will be determined in the next 24 to 48 hours.
Francis had what the Vatican described was a bronchospasm, which is a tightening of the bronchi, which led him to be on this non-invasive machine ventilation, which is an advancement in the oxygen care that he is receiving.
Clearly, there is a lot of concern for the pope. He's been in the hospital since the 14th of February. He's got pneumonia in both lungs. He is 88 years old and has a history of respiratory infections. And the mood, the Vatican has been one of anxiety and concern. People gathered behind me in St. Peter's Square tonight to pray for the pope.
They've been doing that every night in St Peter's. And they were gathering in big numbers for Francis. And there's been an outpouring of prayer and concern for the poverty continues to battle this pneumonia.
Things seem to be on a bit of a knife hedge. It's too soon to tell how everything is going to develop, but we will be getting an update from the Vatican on Saturday morning. Jim.
SCIUTTO: Christopher Lamb, thanks so much for keeping us updated.
And we will be right back with much more.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[16:52:06]
SCIUTTO: To the Middle East now, the first phase of the Israel-Hamas ceasefire is set to end on Saturday. Egypt has been hosting talks this week on whether to extend phase one of the existing agreement or move on to a proposed phase two.
If no deal is struck, it's possible the fighting will resume. An Israeli official has been telling CNN, the military would continue to occupy the critical border between Gaza and Egypt.
Jordanian Sources tell CNN that Arab foreign ministers want to travel to Washington to discuss this within weeks. They aim to present President Trump with a "Solid proposal" to rebuild Gaza.
Remember, Trump has suggested somehow the U.S. would take possession of Gaza.
In the backdrop of the diplomatic shuffle, the Israeli military is dramatically expanding its operation in the West Bank now.
This week, the World Health Organization said it was deeply concerned about what it calls starkly rising attacks on health care in the area.
CNN's Jeremy Diamond has this story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The road into Nur Shams is now unrecognizable.
And yet, the destruction here wrought by the Israeli military in recent days is also becoming all too familiar, telling the story of Israel's escalating assault on the occupied West Bank.
Amid a ceasefire in Gaza, Israel is unleashing its fire power here, deploying tanks for the first time in more than 20 years, and targeting Palestinian refugee camps established in 1948 that have become hot beds of Palestinian militancy.
DIAMOND: This is the first time we're getting an up-close look at the destruction that's been wrought by the Israeli military over the course of the last two weeks here in the Nur Shams Refugee Camp. You can see around me the scale of destruction that looks something more like out of Gaza than out of the occupied West Bank.
But what is also happening here, as it did in Gaza, is the displacement of people. About 40,000 people have been displaced from the West Bank over the course of the last month.
DIAMOND (voice over): We found some of the displaced living here what was once a wedding hall now converted into a makeshift shelter for dozens forced to flee, where children do what they can to take their mind off their ordeal.
Fatima Taufiq (PH) is now living in this makeshift room with several of her grandchildren. She lived through the first and second intifadas, but this is the first time she's been forced from her home.
I've never seen this situation before. The Israelis doing something like this. This is the first time, she says. Her grandson, Mahmoud (PH), recalls the moment Israeli troops ordered his family to leave their home.
[16:55:01]
It was past 2:00 in the morning and a voice on a loud speaker called out for everyone to leave the area.
I didn't take anything with me, he says. I left with the clothes I'm wearing today.
At just 11-years-old, Mahmoud insists he wasn't afraid. It is a different story for his 9-year-old sister, Ruya (PH).
I want mama, she says.
Her mother is in the hospital with her little brother. Far from home, Ruya has never felt more alone.
Tens of thousands are in the same position, fleeing homes in Nur Shams, Tulkarm, and Jenin, as the military tears down residential buildings. The IDF says it is destroying buildings used as, "terrorist infrastructure", but Palestinians say civilian infrastructure is being destroyed as a form of collective punishment.
There is no telling how long their displacement will last. Israeli leaders are threatening a year-long operation. Fatima says her house has been turned into a military barracks.
Where are we supposed to go, she asks? We don't know where we can go. An entire year is difficult.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN, the West Bank.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCIUTTO: Thanks, Jeremy, for that story.
Just moments from now, we are expecting an update on the investigation to the death of actor Gene Hackman and his wife. We've now learned investigators have taken two cellular devices and three different kinds of medicine from the couple's home.
Sheriff's Department says their bodies were found in separate rooms on Wednesday. Hackman's body found on the floor in the kitchen. His wife, Betsy Arakawa, found in the bathroom with pills found scattered near her.
The story will continue to follow, as well as our top story, that meeting in the Oval Office between Trump and Zelenskyy. Thanks so much for our breaking news coverage.
Joining us for great news coverage, I'm Jim Sciutto. I'll be back with more on the showdown in the White House in just about an hour's time. Until then, "THE LEAD" with Dana Bash is next.
