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Zelenskyy Thanks British PM After Meeting Following Trump Clash; Russian Officials Quick to Side With Trump After WH Clash; Zelenskyy Says U.S. Remains "Strategic Partner" Despite WH Clash; New Details Emerge In Hollywood Icon Gene Hackman, Wife's Death; Rubio Blasts Zelensky, Defends Trump After Oval Office "Fiasco"; Vatican: Pope Resting After Sudden Setback; New "What Did You Do" Email Sent To Workers In Various Agencies, Including Social Security & Veterans Affairs. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired March 01, 2025 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:00]

JOHN DIAS, REPORTER (voice-over): Pictures show at least three windows blown out inside the multi-use building. The action happening roughly as high as three football fields span. New Yorkers amazed by it.

DIAS: Don't you think you're having a bad day?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Check that out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You probably would have passed out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're in dangerous type of positions.

DIAS (voice-over): While others have future plans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I often think to myself, maybe I should look up, God forbid.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: All right, yeah, close call, very scary.

All right, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

The CNN Newsroom with Jessica Dean starts right now.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN HOST: You're in the CNN Newsroom. I'm Jessica Dean in New York. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy leaving a much friendlier meeting at 10 Downing Street today compared to the explosive one that happened in the White House on Friday afternoon.

British Prime Minister Keir Starmer giving Zelenskyy a warm welcome in London. And after the visit, the U.K. announced it would speed up a $2.8 billion loan for Ukraine.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KEIR STARMER, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: You're very, very welcome here in Downing Street. And as you heard from the cheers on the street outside, you have full backing across the United Kingdom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: The Ukrainian President shoring up support from European leaders just 24 hours after President Trump abruptly ended their White House meeting. European leaders have been quick to rally around Ukraine with statements like the ones you see here. Quote, "You are not alone. We stand with you." "Ukraine's quest for peace and security is ours."

CNN International Diplomatic Editor Nic Robertson is live in London with more on today's meeting. And Nic, is President Zelenskyy saying anything more about yesterday's tense exchange here in the U.S.?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Look, I think now he's here in the U.K. and he'll be meeting with European leaders tomorrow. He's sort of moved beyond that in the public sphere. What's happening privately behind closed doors with the Prime Minister, we're not privy to that. The readout from the Prime Minister's sort of boilerplate stuff, what he said before reiterating the firm and strong and unwavering commitment for Ukraine for as long as it takes, determined the Prime Minister said he wants to find a path to end Russia's illegal war, one that respects Ukraine's sovereignty and security, and one also that finds a just and lasting peace. So that's sort of boilerplate stuff from the Prime Minister.

But look, I mean, I think the real message here for President Zelenskyy, and perhaps too to one that should hear the Prime Minister intended to cross the Atlantic to the White House as well, that leaving the door of Downing Street, walking down the street, giving President Zelenskyy that big hug. This is not something Keir Starmer was prone to doing. He's not the kind of guy that runs around giving hugs very often. So this was a clear message signaled in front of the cameras. It was the same when Zelenskyy left, a hug, a pat on the back. President Zelenskyy, for his part, thanking the British Prime Minister for all the support he's getting here.

DEAN: And Nic, tomorrow Zelenskyy is going to be meeting with other European leaders at a summit there in London. I would assume he's going to try to accomplish similar backing as he saw from Keir Starmer today?

ROBERTSON: You know, he's going to be looking for the immediacy of what he needs to make sure that Ukraine continues to get and builds up on the security support and the economic support that it needs literally day by day to withstand these massive barrages of missiles and drones that are coming from Russia. He'll be looking to the future to figure out how Europeans can give him the security guarantees that he's looking for, because as he has said, you know, it's not enough to have a ceasefire. He said Ukrainians are worried that they need to have security guarantees going forward.

They need to know that it's not that -- that ceasefire isn't going to be torn down and ripped up by President Putin in the future, because that's Putin's track record in the region and in Ukraine. So that's what Zelenskyy will be looking for.

And I think he'll have another. Well, he will be having another meeting tomorrow. And I think that's going to be an important one. And it's symbolic, perhaps, to not just for President Zelenskyy, but for President Trump as well. When Keir Starmer was in the White House, he handed a letter to President Trump inviting the president to a second and unprecedented state visit with King Charles.

President Zelenskyy will have a meeting at one of King Charles's country residence, Sandringham, tomorrow. That's not usual that the king would necessarily meet a sort of relatively short notice, a leader like President Zelenskyy.

Again, this is all, it seems, part of the symbolizing the strength of support, not just the public on the street, not just political from the Prime Minister, but from the monarch as well for Ukrainians and President Zelenskyy. And perhaps eases the conscience a bit for the Prime Minister and the king, because the Prime Minister was criticized for what many saw here as a sort of fawning offer to get support with President Trump by offering, you know, this meeting with the king. And this will perhaps ameliorate some of those criticisms tomorrow, the meeting with President Zelenskyy.

[16:05:24]

DEAN: All right, Nic Robertson in London for us. Thank you so much for that reporting. I want to go now to CNN's Matthew Chance in Moscow for how Russia is reacting to this moment.

Matthew?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Kremlin's been tight-lipped about the spectacle that unfolded in the Oval Office, but reactions from other Russian officials are essentially supportive of Trump and his Vice President, that President Zelenskyy alone was disrespectful. The Russian Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman said she was surprised that Trump and Vance didn't slap him. A senior Russian official said it was brilliant that Zelenskyy has kicked out the White House.

And a key Russian envoy called the spat historic, a belief that very public fallout between the U.S. and Ukraine represents a sea change in U.S. relations with its allies and with Russia.

The big question now is how this episode may affect talks between U.S. and Russian officials aimed at rebuilding the relationship between two countries. Will it hold them back or maybe even bring them forward? A much-touted summit between President Trump and Vladimir Putin.

Matthew Chance, CNN, Moscow.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN: All right, Matthew, thank you.

And joining us now, retired U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman, who was fired by President Trump in his first term as the top Ukraine expert at the National Security Council. Vindman was also a key witness in President Trump's first impeachment trial and is the author of the newly released book, "The Folly of Realism: How the West Deceived Itself About Russia and Betrayed Ukraine."

Thank you so much for being here with us this afternoon. I first just want to get your thoughts on that meeting between Zelenskyy and the British Prime Minister that we saw today and what that might mean, as Nic Robertson was laying out, for this relationship with Europe while the American relationship settles and we see what happens there. He really is trying to strengthen ties there in Europe.

LT. COL. ALEXANDER VINDMAN, U.S. ARMY (Ret.): Sure. Thanks for having me on. Looking forward to the conversation. I should clarify, I was fired from the White House because I testified.

DEAN: Right.

VINDMAN: Kind of similar to the hostile reception that Zelenskyy got when he challenged Trump or, frankly, when he stood his ground. That's all he did was stand his ground and point out that Trump can't trust Putin and that Trump is being fooled into believing that Putin is offering a lasting peace.

Now, what we saw today was a direct reaction to what happened yesterday, this really rejection of not just Ukraine but European security that was on display over the course of the past week, the U.N. Security Council resolution in which the U.S. voted with Russia, voted with North Korea, and then voted -- actually abstained from its own resolution because there was an effort to define the reality of the ground that Russia was the aggressor.

So the Europeans know this and feel this very, very acutely. It's in their own backyard. The Brits have been, you know, they were also our allies during the Cold War. They understand what the threat of a Russian empire and Russian resurgence means. They understand that Russia's aspirations don't end with regards to just Ukraine or Belarus. It's looking to rebuild that Russian empire and the Soviet Union.

So what they're doing is they're sending a strong message, and that's only going to go -- yesterday was a clear break that the U.S. wasn't going to be there. That's only going to be clearer as the Europeans continue to embrace Ukraine, demonstrate ironclad support for Ukraine because Russia needs to be warned off, because Ukraine needs to exit this war with security guarantees, long-term peace, and with its territorial integrity intact. All this is now unfolding as a result of a complete 180-degree change in U.S. policy, a rejection of our allies and an embrace of our enemies.

DEAN: A policy that is decades old. I mean, it really is like since post-World War II, breaking like this. Is that, you know, different from where we've been in the last several decades?

In a statement released yesterday, you called President Trump and Vice President J.D. Vance, quote, "Impulsive toddlers risking the shared security and Western values of freedom and democracy." You just mentioned this a little bit, but talk to me a little bit more about your concerns of how the Kremlin views what happened yesterday and what is unfolding and how this might not only embolden the Kremlin, but Vladimir Putin himself.

VINDMAN: Yeah. I guess I wrote a book on this, and it came out the day after the third anniversary, talking about how the Kremlin has continuously played the U.S., and no more so than it's doing now in the most extreme manner with the Trump administration, a Trump administration that had four years of experience of trying to manage Russia when it was already engaged in war with Ukraine. This war started in 2014, and the Trump administration wasn't able to achieve a breakthrough back then.

[15:10:23]

Now, they're leaning in further. They're compromising further. They're accommodating further, thinking that this is somehow a solution to the instability and the hostilities in the region or, frankly, in a more nefarious manner. They don't care about European security. They don't care about Ukraine. They're more interested in normalizing relationships with Russia because this is the image that Trump has cast, that he can make peace with Russia, and he's willing to mortgage away Ukraine for it.

So the Russians are, you know, they can't be anything but completely drunk on a continuous basis, popping champagne bottles after every gaffe, after every mistake, these maximum mistakes that we're committing now after 30 years of -- you know, at times imperfect policy. It has been a continuous threat of the U.S. favoring Russia, putting Russia first, succumbing to Russian fears that the relationship could devolve and become hostile or hopes that we could accomplish more with Russia, this now deal that we could have for economic benefits with Russia. The Russians have been doing this effectively for a long time, but now more than ever we're repeating those mistakes without any understanding of the past and how it's going to blow up in our face.

Zelenskyy pointed that out yesterday. It's going to come and bite us in the behind. And he was pointing that out, and that's what really got Trump going, that Trump is trying to cast this image of America great, America having strong relationships. And Zelenskyy bursting the bubble, you know, offering a sanity check, really is what got Trump going yesterday.

DEAN: And you mentioned that that was a familiar scene to you, being punished essentially for telling the truth. Did that surprise you yesterday when that blew up that way?

VINDMAN: It was visceral for me. I kind of had almost like a deja vu moment, you know, putting myself in the shoes of those folks, the professionals that are still sitting in the White House, knowing that they were going into this meeting with a huge sense of foreboding, maybe a tiny bit of misplaced optimism that somehow this deal could be signed, that the U.S. would stay on side, supporting our allies and not siding with our enemies, and then watching everything just completely blow up in the policymakers' faces.

You could see it on Marco Rubio's face. He's not going to say this publicly. He's not going to criticize. He fell in line, same thing with Wallace. They'll fall in line, you know, fawning over Trump and Vance being the biggest culprit to throwing grenades in that meeting.

But behind the scenes, they know what damage was done. Behind the scenes, they know how catastrophic that was for U.S. moral leadership around the world, our relationships, our predictability, stability, repeating the 30-plus years of mistakes to the maximum extent. You know, the subtitle of my book is "How the U.S. -- or How the West Deceives Itself About Russia and Betrays Ukraine. It was manifest and apparent yesterday in a huge way.

DEAN: Why do you think President Trump and his administration is behaving this way? Why do you think President Trump wants to normalize Russia and prioritize that over defending an ally, a Western democracy?

VINDMAN: There's a -- there's a kind of a school of thought that Vladimir Putin has been promoting. It's derzhavnost, sovereignty, and that really only the great powers hold sovereignty. He claims that Russia holds sovereignty, China holds sovereignty, and the U.S. holds sovereignty. It turns out that Trump feels the same way. Everybody else is, you know, is irrelevant. Everybody else is a plaything to be manipulated, to be coerced.

Those are the only states that matter in the system. It is a brutish jungle out there in this foreign policy school because the strong prey on the weak, and the weak suffer what they must. It is really a disastrous return to some seemingly far-gone era before World War II, maybe even 19th century-type foreign policy where the world is far, far more dangerous.

And we are completely -- not only are we not predictable, we may become the adversary, and our allies may have to balance against us. Now, they're going to consolidate support for Ukraine, but they're also going to take up their own security architecture. That's going to take some time. They need to figure out what this means, how they build a NATO minus the U.S. going forward, invest in their own defense, but also hedge against the fact that the U.S. isn't just absent. It could potentially be hostile.

[16:15:03]

DEAN: And so what does come next? How do they begin to put those pieces together, and what does it mean for the United States and its role in the world and the traditional alignment of powers that is being realigned before our very eyes?

VINDMAN: So I think you see the outlines of that already. You see the massive consolidated response of all of the European nations, Democratic in support of Ukraine immediately after this, you know, abject, humiliating display by Vance and Trump, trying to be both bullies but also seemingly somehow mastering-looking weak. So you could see the outlines in response, but there's also been kind

of an undercurrent where the French, President Macron, Starmer, the likely incoming chancellor of Germany, Merz, are going to -- are now starting to think about, you know, putting together a European architecture, and starting to invest, drawing up plans on how the Europeans are not going to just support Ukraine but defend themselves and warn off Russia going forward, and meet all these enormous challenges that the 21st century is dishing up for the world and for democracies, but the U.S. is at best going to be on the sidelines, maybe even an adversary.

You know, we've shown ourselves that we're potentially going to be an adversary by trying to spoil elections in Germany, siding with the far-right fascist party. I think that there's a chance that we might read the tea leaves and see this consolidated response, and decide that we don't want to be the outlier. We don't want to be with our traditional enemies. But I don't know if I have that much hope. We might have to weather the storm for a couple years, see what U.S. politics brings to bear in the midterm elections, and then we could see if there's a reformat in this approach that's very, very dangerous.

DEAN: Yeah. It is a stark potential reality. Alexander Vindman, thank you so much. Again, just a reminder about his new book, "The Folly of Realism: How the West Deceived Itself About Russia and Betrayed Ukraine." Very timely, and it is out right now. Thanks again to Alexander Vindman for joining us.

And new details about the death of Oscar winner Gene Hackman and his wife at their home in New Mexico. We'll talk more about just how long they were dead before their bodies were found. You're in the CNN Newsroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:22:07]

DEAN: We are learning more about the mysterious deaths of iconic Hollywood actor Gene Hackman. His wife Betsy and their dog all discovered in their Santa Fe home Wednesday. Police say the data from Hackman's pacemaker shows he was deceased nine days before being found. And the bodies did show signs of mummification. They say they do not have a cause of death. They don't suspect foul play as they await the toxicology report.

CNN's Julia Vargas Jones is joining us live from Santa Fe. And Julia, we start with this mummification. It begins two weeks or more after death. What are officials saying about that?

JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they are saying that they still don't have a timeline for this, Jessica. That is the biggest challenge in this investigation. You know, the sheriff here, Adan Mendoza, he said usually you start from the last time that someone was seen and make your way up to the time of death.

In this case, they're actually building this timeline backwards starting from the moment of death because this was a couple that was very private, that lived in a secluded home. There's very little video evidence. What they are counting on is the toxicology report and the full autopsy to get a better sense.

So far, as you mentioned, the pacemaker giving us a little bit of a sense that Gene Hackman might have been dead for nine days before he was found. We also note no signs of foul play and no trauma external to either of their bodies. And that's notable also because in this preliminary autopsy, it has been determined that carbon monoxide poisoning is not at play here either.

In a report that we got on Friday, we did hear a little bit more of what happened inside that house. There were pills that were recovered, one of them for a thyroid condition and some for blood pressure, Tylenol, some other medical records recovered as well, Jessica. But this investigation, what we've been pointed to is just there could be a lot, at least three to six weeks until we get that full toxicology report.

And that is where investigators are hoping more answers will come, and especially when it comes to the timing of the death of Ms. Arakawa. They were in separate parts of the house. It feels like a little game of clue here as investigators are putting all of this together. So many questions still up in the air as they move forward in their investigation.

DEAN: All right, Julia Vargas Jones there in Santa Fe with the latest. Thank you so much.

And let's talk more about this with medical examiner, Forensic Pathologist and former Detective Dr. D'Michelle DuPre.

Dr. DuPre, thanks for being here with us. I want to start first with what Julia was just talking about, that Hackman was likely dead nine days before being found, his wife's body showing signs of mummification as well. What are you gleaning from these details we're getting?

[16:25:01]

DR. D'MICHELLE DUPRE, MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, it actually does fit with the story. It does seem like he -- at least he and probably she, were both dead for at least that amount of time because of that mummification. And we find out when bodies have been there or dead for some time in a dry climate.

DEAN: Yeah. And we know three different medications were taken from the home, a thyroid medication, a blood pressure medication and Tylenol.

Look, the investigators are trying clearly to piece together what was there, what could have happened? What might they be able to figure out from those medications? Will they be checking against them in the toxicology report?

DUPRE: Absolutely. I think toxicology is going to be key in this case. We do know that that Gene Hackman had some heart issues and perhaps high blood pressure as well. We don't know too much about her medical history, but the fact that the pills were found there, they were probably a prescription for her. She may have also had some issues like that. So toxicology is going to play a key role in this.

DEAN: And about how long will that take? I mean, I think at this point we're thinking weeks, but these types of things can take a while to resolve. And do you think it's possible, will we ever -- is it possible we don't get any answers to all these questions?

DUPRE: I think we'll get some answers. I feel pretty confident about that. But yes, toxicology can take a long time often, depending on the lab, the jurisdiction that it's in, the lab is often backed up. It could take not just weeks, but maybe months. But perhaps in cases like this, they will try to speed that up a bit since it is such a high- profile case. So hopefully we'll find out answers soon.

DEAN: And what would you be focusing on at this point? What are the key things you think they should be zeroing in on?

DUPRE: Well, I would look at -- we have a saying in law enforcement that we want to look at the totality of circumstances. We don't really want to just focus in on one thing and get tunnel vision because then we may miss something else. So we need to take a careful look at the crime scene, which I'm sure has already been done.

We also need to talk to witnesses, to other neighbors and people who have seen them, which has also probably been done. Now, I think they're focusing on some of the electronic information they may be able to get from their phones, perhaps even from their computers. Those may also be important.

But we also want to take a look at that autopsy report, the physical condition of the body. And even though there was no trauma, we want to make sure that there was no natural disease process as well once we do that autopsy and then go from there.

DEAN: Yeah, just a lot of things to cover there. And we will wait to learn more. Dr. D'Michelle DuPre, thanks for joining us. We appreciate it.

DUPRE: Thank you.

DEAN: The politics of a foreign policy fiasco caught on camera for the world to see. You're on the CNN Newsroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:32:15]

DEAN: Secretary of State Marco Rubio defended President Trump last night on CNN after Friday's explosive White House meeting with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: And he's the only one in the world that has any chance.

If Donald Trump tomorrow decides, I don't care about Ukraine, I don't care about Russia, and I don't care about this war and he walks away, I ask you, I ask everyone, well, who on this planet has any chance whatsoever, even a 1 percent chance, of getting the combatants to the table?

The answer is there is no one. He is the only one on earth right now that has any chance. If there is a chance at peace --

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Is he --

RUBIO: -- he's the only one that has a chance to deliver on it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DEAN: Molly Ball, senior political correspondent for the "Wall Street Journal," joins us now, along with Marc Caputo, senior politics reporter at "Axios."

Good to see both of you this afternoon. Thanks for being here.

Molly, we heard there from secretary of state Marco Rubio, as many Republicans, even those who have strongly supported Ukraine, had public praise for the president after that meeting yesterday.

Which was interesting to see. A handful of Republicans did have something else to say. Republican Senator John Curtis from Utah saying, "Diplomacy and statesmanship seem to have been checked at the door of the Oval Office today."

Congressman Mike Lawler -- Lawler from New York, calling the meeting a "disaster." And there were a handful of other people.

But for the most part, Molly, that was the exception, not the rule. What are you hearing about this as -- as Republicans try to kind of metabolize what happened yesterday?

MOLLY BALL, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, as you said, there have been a few Republicans publicly expressing distaste for -- for the president and vice president's approach.

But most of them very much cheering for what they are saying is exactly the sort of America First philosophy that they argue the voters voted for last November.

Privately, Republicans, some Republicans would prefer that he not have taken quite that approach.

But you know, what you hear from Secretary of State Rubio and from some others as well, is the -- what they're saying is whether or not you like the way President Trump and Vice President Vance approach that meeting, they are the only ones who can broker that deal. And that is simply a reality that Zelenskyy has to adapt to, that

Europe has to adapt to, that every party to this -- to this conflict has to adapt to.

And so whether they like it or not, they are just going to have to find the best way of approaching Trump to try to make this happen.

DEAN: And, Marc, this obviously comes as Trump falsely blamed Ukraine for invading Russia.

And last week, you reported Trump advisers have privately fumed that the media is focusing too much on Trump's misstatement and too little on how the West antagonized Putin in the years before he invaded Ukraine.

[16:35:09]

Walk us through your reporting on that and what you learned.

MARC CAPUTO, SENIOR POLITICS REPORTER, "AXIOS": Well, this is a very fraught topic because the reality is, is, yes, Russia invaded Ukraine. Vladimir Putin is a dictator, et cetera.

Nevertheless, we wanted to explain to people that, while Donald Trump ultimately, according to the people we spoke to, does believe that he made a bit of a mistake there, and he sort of cleaned up his remarks, he also thinks that the full story hasn't been told.

There's two very specific dates to sort of understand the broader picture that Trump views the Ukraine conflict in.

In 2008, NATO and European allies extended a sort of tentative offer to Ukraine to become a NATO member. And this was something that blindsided Putin and drove him crazy and stoked his paranoia.

In 2014, closer to home, a pro-Putin President Yanukovych wound up fleeing Ukraine for Moscow. And that was after large-scale protests. And Putin suspected the United States was behind it. Now there's no real evidence to show that. But that's what he suspects.

And the Obama government, State Department official, Victoria Nuland, was caught on a phone call where she was sort of showing that the United States was more involved in discussing the politics of Ukraine at the time, and Putin used this as a pretext for his first invasion in 2014.

And so, in Donald Trump's mind, this sort of broader potential, or better said, shared culpability isn't discussed enough. And therefore he thinks that Europe and Transatlanticism, and this is to Mollys point, with the American first point of view, has essentially failed.

And that's why Europe is not at the table. That's why NATO is not at the table. And that's why Donald Trump is charting his own path now.

It is also very true that Trump views Russia in a much more favorable light than U.S. policy has for decades, or U.S. policymakers have for decades. And he does want to reorient more of U.S. policy, more toward Moscow than it has been in the past.

DEAN: Yes. And as Marc lays all that out, Molly, this is just all a shock to the political system. How is it responding in your view?

BALL: I think most people are still in shock. I think this applies to so many of the things that Trump has done at the beginning of this new administration.

He has gone full throttle in the direction that he promised to do. He has upended the Transatlantic alliance, if not left it in tatters.

But this is also the way he's approaching the federal government. This is also the way he's approaching many other sorts of systems and institutions that he essentially believes he has a mandate to destroy or weaken, or at least significantly change.

So I think, you know, it is certainly the case that -- that Washington is reeling and Europe is reeling and NATO is reeling.

But what you hear from the -- the Trump camp and his allies is, well, what did they expect? Did they think he wasn't going to do the things that he said, the things that that he promised?

And you know, he promises a lot of things. He says a lot of things. He hasn't -- he hasn't done everything. And he couldn't do everything that he said he was going to do, because some of the things he promised conflict with each other.

That being said, you know, this is all, you know, as Marc has been saying, quite consistent with the sympathies that he's shown for years, going back to his first administration.

And the and this idea that the United States would have a friendlier relationship with Russia, for example, is certainly nothing new, if you we're here for when Trump was president before.

DEAN: Yes.

And, Marc, it also -- just to me, it's just it's the uncertainty of it all, right, as Molly is talking there just as the as the shock kind of makes its way through. But it is the uncertainty of it all.

And that is obviously something that President Trump and his administration pride themselves on in the fact that no one knows what they're going to do. They think that's a real advantage in terms of negotiating and getting what they want.

But -- but how are you seeing that uncertainty play out. again, kind of more broadly across the political system in the U.S. and beyond?

CAPUTO: Well, to your point, it is sort of Trump's superpower. But while we can talk, and rightly so, about Donald Trump's chaotic nature and the uncertainty that surrounds him and his decision making process, there are certain truisms with Donald Trump.

One of them is that Donald Trump perceives the world and politics as a giant series of deals and leverage, and in the terms he used yesterday, the cards someone holds are what matters.

He sees these as competitions between big players, big personalities. And in his view, which is something that Zelenskyy might not have understood -- and I'm not saying it's right -- Zelenskyy doesn't really matter that much.

[16:40:08]

And in Donald Trump's view, Vladimir Putin matters. Xi, the president of China, matters. And Zelenskyy doesn't.

And so in this paradigm, he wanted Vladimir -- Volodymyr Zelenskyy to show up at the White House in a suit, or at least in a jacket, which he didn't. And he wants him to show obeisance and fealty and approach him in a way where he is a supplicant begging for help and is flattering him.

Trump is prone to want to be flattered, and he is quick to anger. And Zelenskyy didn't do that. I'm not blaming the victim.

What I am saying is that the way in which Zelenskyy approached this, knowing Donald Trump's personality and the uncertainties that surround him, but the certain personality quirks he has, is sort of a mystery.

DEAN: Yes. All right, Molly Ball and Marc Caputo, our thanks to both of you. We really appreciate it.

BALL: Thank you.

CAPUTO: Thank you.

DEAN: Some good news when it comes to the health of Pope Francis just one day after he suffered a sudden episode of breathing difficulty. We'll give it to you in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:45:50]

DEAN: Tonight, an update on Pope Francis. Vatican sources telling CNN the pope is resting after last night's episode of respiratory difficulty, saying his medical condition remains complex and he is still not out of danger.

Meanwhile, the faithful gathered to pray for his recovery. Pope Francis has been in the hospital now for two weeks, of course, sparking concerns about the 88 year old's health.

CNN's Christopher Lamb has been closely monitoring this story from Vatican City.

What else can you tell us about how the pope is doing tonight?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jessica, it was a positive update on the pope's health from the Vatican on Saturday. They said that the pope remains stable, that he is not showing any signs of fever, that there we're no more respiratory crises today, on Saturday.

Now, of course, on Friday, we're told that the by the Vatican that the pope had had this bronchial spasm that had led to an advance oxygen therapy for Francis. Today things are calmer.

Vatican sources saying that the popes able to move around, that he had 20 minutes in the chapel, that he's in good spirits. So all of these positive signs and developments.

However, the pope is still on high-flow oxygen, alternating between that and oxygen through a mask, which is connected up to a machine. So the prognosis for the pope remains guarded we're told by the Vatican. That means it's still too soon to tell.

So there is still a lot of concern for the pope. He's 88 years old. He has pneumonia in both lungs. He's been in the hospital now for 16 days. He won't be leading the angelus prayer on Sunday, tomorrow, for the third Sunday in a row.

Another sign of just how serious this health situation is, in the Vatican, there is concern and worry. And people have been gathering each night to pray for the pope in St. Peter's Square or in the Basilica.

Tonight, they we're in the Basilica to pray for the pope. They're also gathering up at the hospital, the Gemelli Hospital in Rome, to pray for Francis for his recovery.

So it's a -- it's a fast-evolving situation that we're following closely. We're hoping for another update from the Vatican on Sunday -- Jessica?

DEAN: All right, Christopher Lamb, we will await that. Thank you very much for that reporting.

Some federal workers will once again need to lay out what they accomplished this week, here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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[16:52:57]

DEAN: Tonight, the State Department is telling employees it will reply on their behalf to the Office of Personnel Management. This after a second email went out last night telling federal employees to report what they did at work over the past week.

This e-mail carried the title, quote, "What did you do last week? Part two," and informed those federal workers that documenting their work will now be a weekly requirement.

According to a union representative, the emails went out to workers in multiple government agencies.

CNN correspondent, Arlette Saenz, is joining us now.

Arlette, what more can you tell us about what we're learning here?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jess, it's round two for these federal workers who have received this email asking them to detail a list of their accomplishments for the past week.

It comes just one week after around this time last Saturday OPM has sent that initial email, which surprised and caught many federal workers off guard.

And now there is a similar email that started to go out on Friday night. We know of several agencies where employees started to receive this email. It includes places like the CDC, the Veterans Affairs Department, as well as the Department of Education.

And these workers are being asked to list in bullet point form five accomplishments that they had from the previous week and to copy in their managers.

Now, what's a little bit different about this email compared to the one sent last week, is that it does say that this will be required each week, and the responses will be due by 11:59 p.m. Eastern on Monday.

But it does come as there's a lot of questions with these federal workers about whether they do need to respond. They haven't laid out what any repercussions might be if people do not respond to this email.

And there's different agencies giving out different instructions. For instance, I'm told that the State Department, that employees there did receive this email last night.

But then this morning, leadership at the State Department sent a follow up email to their staff saying that they didn't need to respond, that the department leaders would be responding on the behalf of the workforce and their employees until, quote, "this is otherwise rescinded."

[16:55:00]

Now, the State Department was one of those agencies who, just last week, had told their employees not to respond. Another agency was the Pentagon.

But actually, yesterday, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth sent a memo that said that, "All civilian employees going forward will need to respond to this email."

So there's still a lot of uncertainty about -- about how this requirement will be handled at a time when the federal workforce has really seen dramatic cuts from the Trump administration and efforts from the Trump administration to re-do a lot of what federal government is doing.

DEAN: Yes, a lot of questions about this.

Arlette Saenz, thank you so much for that.

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy gets a much friendlier welcome in London one day after his disastrous meeting with President Trump. We'll tell you what happened here in the CNN NEWSROOM.

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