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Trump Says No Pause Coming In Tariffs After Markets Plummet; Trump Says U.S., Iran Set For Direct Nuclear Talks; Video Contradicts Israeli Justification For 15 Deaths In Gaza; How Tariffs May Cause Scarcities of Italian Olive Oil; SCOTUS Pauses Deadline to Return Man Mistakenly Deported; RFK Jr. Makes Vaccination Push after 2nd Texas Child Dies; March Madness Crowns a Champion. Aired 1-2a ET
Aired April 08, 2025 - 01:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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JOHN VAUSE, CNN ANCHOR: This time, it really is about the tariffs. Ahead on CNN Newsroom.
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URSULA VON DER LEYEN, EUROPEAN COMMISSION PRESIDENT: Europe is always ready for a good deal, but we are also prepared to respond through countermeasures.
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VAUSE: Not interested, says the U.S. president. He now seems determined to rewire the global economy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He called in sick that day and his son Mohammed took his place.
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VAUSE: And then a week after that, he officially identified his son's body when one of 15 emergency workers killed in Gaza by an Israeli strike. And amid a deadly measles outbreak in the U.S. the health secretary, an infamous anti-vaxxer, makes a grudging admission.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Live from Atlanta. This is CNN Newsroom with John Vause.
VAUSE: According to the White House, more than a dozen countries are trying to negotiate new trade deals in the wake of sweeping tariffs imposed by Donald Trump.
That includes the European Union offering carrots and sticks Monday, zero for zero tariffs on industrialized goods, but also warnings of countermeasures. President Trump seemed to dismiss both, while at the same time saying he will not pause imposing sweeping tariffs on almost every U.S. trading partner.
And for many, that seem to be a moment of clarification. Trump's tariffs aren't a negotiating tactic for better trade deals, but rather the U.S. president really does want to rewire how the U.S. and world economy actually works. And Trump has again warned he's not backing down, despite dire warnings of a possible global recession as well as higher inflation, even though trillions of dollars in value has been wiped from stock markets around the world in just days. Right now, some of that value is coming back.
These are the markets in Asia, green across the board there, the Nikkei up by more than 5 percent, almost more than five and a half percent. The S and P in Australia up by more than 2 percent, Shanghai Composite up by 1 percent.
Beijing, though, is one of the few countries taking a hard line with the United States. The Commerce Ministry so saying it firmly opposes an additional 50 percent tariff which Trump says will be imposed on Chinese imports. That is, unless China removes a 34 percent tariff on U.S. imports. That was done in response to Trump's initial reciprocal tariff announced last week. So you can see how these things get complicated and spiral into a trade war.
So for all that, let's bring in CNN's Kristie Lu Stout live for us in Hong Kong. You know, Trump is now Ratcheting up the pressure in this global trade war. Beijing, though, is really taking a hard line, especially compared to a lot of other countries which are trying to work out a deal.
KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: China is taking a hard line, John, you're absolutely right. And it is continuing to push back with China now calling this threatened 50 percent tariff by Donald Trump against China a quote, mistake on top of a mistake and vowing that it's going to fight until the very end.
Now, on Monday, that was when we heard again from U.S. President Donald Trump lashing out at China for daring to strike back, threatening this new 50 percent tariff on China if it doesn't remove a reciprocal retaliatory 34 percent tariff.
China is not blinking and China is pushing back. We've been monitoring for official reaction from Beijing. This is what we noticed earlier today from China's Ministry of Commerce, a pretty defiant and tone statement saying the following. Let's bring it up for you.
Translated from the original Chinese saying the U.S. threat to escalate tariffs on China is a mistake on top of a mistake which once again exposes the blackmailing nature of the US. China will never accept it. If the U.S. insists on its own way, China will fight to the end.
Now the ministry also called for any and all tariff plans to be dropped, as well as dialogue to resolve any differences. Earlier, we heard a response from a spokesperson from China's embassy in the United States who used a far more measured tone and language that we've been hearing all along. As this latest trade war continues to escalate.
This is what we heard from Liu Pengyu saying, we have stressed more than once that pressuring or threatening China is not a right way to engage with us. China will firmly safeguard its legitimate rights and interests, unquote.
Now, China watchers, how are they viewing all this? Now they believe that China will not blink. China will hold the line and it will not remove its retaliatory 34 percent tariffs. This is some interesting analysis that we picked up from a China watcher with the Brookings. This is Ryan Haass and he posted this on Twitter X saying based ongoing discussions in China, I am skeptical Beijing will blink on President Trump's recent tariff escalation threats. Chinese leaders understand holding firm will be economically costly. They are preparing the public tolerate pain. Politics may drive decisions, unquote.
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So, John, many people observing this saying that China is not expecting any breakthroughs, not expecting any off ramp to this. It's pricing in the cost. For now. It appears that China is digging in. Back to you.
VAUSE: Kristie, thank you. Christie Lu Stout live for us in Hong Kong. Well, all this uncertainty is causing market volatility, globally whiplash and panic with investors reacting to any sign these tariffs could actually be rolled back. Here's CNN's Phil Mattingly, for top.
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PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF U.S. DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Officials in foreign capitals on Wall Street, really across the world trying to divine any guidance as to the future intent behind Donald Trump, sweeping new tariffs Monday wasn't exactly a great day. Market rumors drove the complete reversal of massive losses, bringing it into the green before they quickly move back in to the red. Because they were rumors.
Different officials from Trump administration at various different moments seem to be putting forth different ideas as to what countries may be able to do on a bilateral basis to get out of the new tariffs before they take effect on April 9th or sometime thereafter. And then there was the president who made very clear there is no pause on the table. It is possible that the new tariffs could be permanent. It is also possible that they could be negotiated away.
What he actually wants in those negotiations to allow for that kind of outcome? Well, he wasn't so specific on that. It could be many different things. It can't just be tariff rates. It would also have to be what the administration views as non-tariff barriers.
What would those entail? What level of those would have to be removed in order for the U.S. to strike a deal? That is unclear. And that more than anything else is a good window into this moment for markets looking for certainty, for corporate executives looking for certainty, foreign leaders looking for certainty. They aren't going to find it anytime soon.
Now what we do know is the treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, and the top trade official in the administration have been tasked with launching negotiations with Japan. That's one ally, this one bilateral effort that's underway.
Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent said later in the day that President Trump will be directly involved in those negotiations. As for the other several dozen countries that are expected to be hit on April 9th by these new tariff rates, well, White House officials say their phones are ringing off the hook. There have been no other delegations set up to try and create some type of bilateral deal.
But the reality of the moment when you talk to lawmakers on Capitol Hill, when you talk to some White House advisers, is they don't actually know what President Trump wants or what he would need to see in order to make any type of agreement. They acknowledge negotiations certainly will be something he pursues. He said so himself. But how this actually plays out in the days ahead, certainty is what markets have been looking for.
They are not going to get it. White House officials are clear on that. As one White House official told me late in the day on Monday, this is a decision for President Trump to make. He's the decider. We are the ones who just give him advice. So for people that are looking to those advisers, whether it's trade adviser Peter Navarro, whether it's Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent to give them some type of roadmap forward, the reality is they're not totally sure one exists. That is entirely up to President Trump.
And I think that is the reality. The markets definitely weren't looking toward as they're grasping for any type of idea, any type of indication that a deal may be in the works, that the new tariffs may not go into place on April 9.
The more clear reality is they're certainly going to go out of place. Are they going to go out of place for everyone? It certainly looks like that. But negotiations are being pursued and the White House is open to them whether or not they'll result in anything that nobody is really willing to save for certain yet. And that is a very dicey moment, not just for this administration, but really the entire global economic system. Phil Mattingly, CNN, Washington.
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VAUSE: Bill Lee is chief economist at the Milken Institute and former managing director Citigroup. Thank you for being with us.
WILLIAM LEE, CHIEF ECONOMIST MIKEN INSTITUTE: Thanks for having me.
VAUSE: So here's a quick snapshot of headlines from Monday. JP Morgan CEO Jamie Dimon sounds the alarm bell over tariffs. He's warning of increasing inflation and the increasing chance of recession. This is the stock market's worst start to a presidential term in modern history and tariffs are a self-inflicted economic catastrophe. Is there now sort of a growing realization that Donald Trump isn't
using tariffs to force negotiations for new trade deals, but instead he is determined to use tariffs to rework how the U.S. and world economy actually operate?
LEE: That's a very good point. I think we should sort of ease off on the notion of focusing on tariffs because that seems to be the obsession of everyone right now. So what the tariffs are doing, and remember, tariffs are but one instrument in a package of policies that are being proposed by Donald Trump.
One of the things that he got elected on was this MAGA agenda. The agenda had the objective of increasing employment and production in the United States, reshaping global supply chains and securing them. One of the ways of doing that would be reduce the size of government, reduce taxes, reduce regulations, and incentivize foreign investors and domestic investors to invest United States.
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So, so that's the package. Tariffs are the -- are in some ways a metaphor is the medical analogy that President Trump started to say, I think, and I'll let me continue it to say, if you have a patient with cardiac problem atrial fibrillation, you want to give them a blood thinner and so you give them a drug called Coumadin. But Coumadin is also rat poison, and too much rat poison is going to kill the patient.
And the right package of treatments will involve COVID and a host of other policies, including smaller government fuel regulations and lower taxes. And I think that's the package that we need to focus on.
And right now, the objective of Donald Trump is to reshape the global trading system in a way that's more appropriate for the 21st century and not post World War II.
VAUSE: OK. Because there's a lot of criticism, basically this tariff policy takes us back to the 19th century or, you know, the 18th century. Here's the U.S. President speaking last week announcing reciprocal tariffs.
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DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: In 1913, for reasons unknown to mankind, they established the income tax so that citizens rather than foreign countries would start paying the money necessary to run our government. Then in 1929, it all came to a very abrupt end with the Great Depression. And it would have never happened if they had stayed with the tariff policy.
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VAUSE: Just very quickly, very quick answer, if you could, is there any credible credibility to the President's argument? The Great Depression would not have happened if the U.S. had continued using tariffs. LEE: It would not have happened if the Federal Reserve didn't make a
mistake. But the tariffs did worsen the global trade situation. I think there's no doubt about that. But tariffs are being you looked at as a source of revenue, but it's just a supplement to the main source of revenue, which is income tax.
The main source of revenue actually from the tariffs are going to be the jobs that are created and you production that's being put in place when you incentivize people to invest in other states. And the tariffs are one way of getting people to negotiate how investments will take place in the United States. I think that's the focal point that I think is being missed by a lot of the analysts out there.
VAUSE: OK. There is also the formula which the White House says was used for calculating tariffs. This is it. It's got a lot of Roman numerals and stuff in there. And here's what the Conservative Tax foundation said about it. The method for calculating other countries so called tariffs for reciprocal purposes is nonsense. The overall result is an extraordinary policy error that will severely damage the economy while failing to reduce the U.S. trade deficit.
So in other words, if the policy is based on a flawed mythology which is driven by a president who doesn't really understand how tariffs have worked historically, especially with the Great Depression, I guess what could possibly go wrong?
LEE: Well, that formula is a shortcut to look at what has kept the United States from exporting to various countries. That tariffs a very small part of the problem, the big problem are nontariff barriers, quotas, regulations, legal problems, legal restrictions and all sorts of regulatory barriers that prevent American companies from selling.
So the proxy for how big these other factors are nontariff barriers is the size of the deficit. And that's why the staff use that formula because using the size deficit, they say the number of nontariff barriers that we're facing is proportionate to the size of that deficit. So they calculated a way of coming up with reciprocal tariffs to equalize things. But President Trump I think said this is way too big, so he cut it in half. So, so I think that's the notion of.
It's not just the tariff barriers that are concerned. The most concern is going to be the nontariff barriers that are very hard to put together, they're very hard to assess. But the outcome is very easy to see which is the size of the bilateral deficit.
VAUSE: Is there a concern though that by opposing tariffs which are attacked and it will increase the prices of many goods not necessarily by the amount of the tariff itself, but those prices will eventually go up some, that will be inflationary.
And then you have the other problem that if the Federal Reserve goes to sort of, you know, will now be cut in a, rather be stuck in a cycle of not being able to cut interest rates. So then you could lead to a situation of having stake stagflation.
VAUSE: No, no, that's absolutely wrong. The Federal Reserve has already said that we have to assess whether or not the tariffs lead to second or third round the price increases. The Federal Reserve and when I was a staffer there telling current staffers the policy is put in place by looking at continuing inflation problems. That is if inflation expectations become unhinged, then we start to do something with tightening policy.
But a one time, two time, you know, price increase, just price level increase, that doesn't lead to further increases in prices, those the Federal Reserve will overlook and ignore and focus in on what's going on in the labor market. So it's absolutely wrong to say that the Federal Reserve is caught in a bind with inflation versus stagnation. And also, by the way, reducing imports will boost GDP.
I think the source of the problem right now is the uncertainty about whether the MAGA package, the whole policy agenda that is being promised by President Trump during his election, whether that goes in place or not.
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That uncertainty is what's leading the freezing of expenditures, not the tariffs themselves and certainly not reducing imports. At any council tell you reduce imports, you boost GDP. So, so I think the analysis right now has to be a little bit clearer and the politics has to be reduced.
VAUSE: Reducing the politics would be a very good start. Bill, thanks for being with us. Bill Lee there. Appreciate your time, sir.
LEE: Thanks.
VAUSE: And President Trump said Monday that direct talks are underway between the United States and Iran over Iran's nuclear program. During his meeting with the Israeli prime minister, Trump says U.S. officials are expected to sit down with their Iranian counterparts in what he describes as a very big meeting which will take place in Oman Saturday.
One foreign minister took to social media to comment on the upcoming high level talks, saying in part it's much but an opportunity as it is a test. The ball is in America's court.
Israel's military now says a perceived threat led to a deadly strike on 15 emergency workers in Gaza. In a moment, the images from that attack casting doubt on those planes.
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VAUSE: According to Israel's Prime Minister, Donald Trump's bold vision of Gaza's future was under discussion during a White House meeting Monday. Benjamin Netanyahu says after the war more than 2 million residents of Gaza should be able to freely choose wherever they want to go. He did not say that included staying in Gaza, land that many Palestinians consider their homeland. Here's President Trump.
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TRUMP: You know how I feel about the Gaza Strip. I think it's an incredible piece of important real estate and I think it's something that we would be involved in. But you know, having a peace force like the United States there controlling and owning the Gaza Strip would be a good thing because right now all it is for years and years all I hear about is killing and Hamas and problems.
And if you take the people, the Palestinians and move them around to different countries and you have plenty of countries that will do that and you really have a freedom zone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Many countries in the region, including Egypt and Jordan, have rejected what is essentially a forced displacement. It could amount to a war crime. According to an initial investigation by the Israeli military, a perceived threat led to the killing of more than a dozen emergency workers in Gaza last month. But a video of the incident is now casting doubt on those claims. CNN's Jeremy Diamond has details and a warning. Some of the images in his report are disturbing.
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JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Emergency lights flashing in the pre-dawn sky. A convoy of ambulances and a fire truck pull up to the scene of an Israeli attack. Palestinian paramedics and civil defense responders get out of their vehicles when suddenly, amid a hail of gunfire, emergency responders drop to the ground. And the paramedic who is filming begins to pray.
It is the single deadliest attack on emergency responders in Gaza during the war, killing 15. The Israeli military says it is reexamining the incident after this video debunked their claim that the ambulances were advancing suspiciously and without emergency lights.
Now new testimony from a survivor further undermining the Israeli military's narrative. Paramedic Munther Abed says Israeli troops didn't just open fire one ambulance convoy. About an hour earlier his ambulance was also attacked. They opened fire directly on us in the vehicle, Munther says. I survived by lying down in the back of the vehicle. If I had stood up, I would have been killed.
He listened as two of his colleagues, Mustafa Hafaja and Ezzeddine Shaath drew their last breaths. Israeli troops then detained Munther. The Israeli military has described that first attack as targeting a Hamas vehicle, killing two Hamas members and detaining a third.
An Israeli military official said they were not uniformed paramedics, but Munther says they were driving a well-lit ambulance and were wearing their uniforms. As Israeli troops questioned Munther, other medics were dispatched to look for him. The Palestine Red Crescent Society says this is Munther's ambulance
lights extinguished after coming under fire. No comment from the Israeli military. Munther saw the convoy arrive.
I was lying face down and a soldier had an M16 rifle pressed against my back with my face turned toward the street. In the street, there were civil defense vehicles, fire trucks and ambulances parked nearby. They opened fire directly on them. The Israeli military buried the bodies in this shallow grave. They say it was to prevent the bodies from being scavenged.
The U.N. only reached the site a week later. Paramedic Hassan Hosni nearly ended up in that grave. But he called in sick that day and his son Mohammed took his place. He soon called him one last time.
Help me, dad. Help me. I asked him what was wrong and he said, we were targeted by the Israelis and they are now shooting at us directly. Then the call disconnected. Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VAUSE: Take a break here. The Supreme Court hits pause on an order that the Trump administration must bring home a man mistakenly deported to El Salvador.
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We'll show you where he's being held. The court decides his faith.
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VAUSE: Welcome back everyone. I'm John Vause, you're watching CNN NEWSROOM.
One of the big mysteries in Donald Trump's tariff war is the calculation of how much imports were actually tariff depending on country.
Here's the equation, which includes imports, exports, price elasticity and other variables and lots of sort of weird looking numerals.
But the formula appears to boil down to something which is a lot simpler. Take the U.S. trade deficit in goods with the nation in question like China, $295 billion. Divide that number by the value of U.S. goods imported from China, which is $440 billion in Chinas case.
What you have there is China's surplus from the U.S. is 67 percent of the value of its exports. Following along at home?
The China effective tariff rate that according to the White House, there you go. It's divided that number in half to arrive at a reciprocal tariff.
Well, critics and experts have called this calculation complete nonsense. White House adviser Peter Navarro told Richard Quest in February the formula is designed to level the playing field.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER NAVARRO, WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: For the U.S. to compete in the President Trump -- what's going to happen here with this fair and reciprocal plan is he's going to calculate equivalent reciprocal tariffs based on countries, customized for each countries depending on how big they're cheating us.
And they're either going to stop cheating us, which we would love or we're going to impose those tariffs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Part of the tariff plan is for a 20 percent tariff on most products coming from the E.U., including Italian cooking staples, which many Americans actually rely on. That could cause scarcity as well for Italians. CNN's Barbie Nadeau explains.
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BARBIE LATZA NADEAU, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: The U.S. Is the second largest consumer of this -- Italian-produced olive oil made in the Tuscan region. It's products like this that will be affected by U.S. tariffs announced by President Trump. But it won't be consumers who are affected, at least not yet.
It will be production lines that are hit hardest. Extra virgin olive oil producers export about 100,000 tons to the U.S. each year, and the U.S. is Italy's third largest trading partner.
Products like Parma Hams (ph) turn a multi-million-dollar business a year, now subject to 20 percent tariffs. These extra costs are likely to be handed down to the consumers in the long run, eventually even here in Italy.
Producers are worried that if exports to the U.S. slow down to a lack of demand for made in Italy products, they will have to make cuts. And that could mean a drop in supply even here in Italy, meaning shelves like this could soon be bare.
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VAUSE: USAID is canceling all remaining humanitarian contracts for Afghanistan, according to one official. The notice of termination was among dozens sent this weekend as the Trump administration moves to abolish the agency by July. It will end millions of dollars in funding which supported life-saving work in the country now under Taliban rule suffering from decades of war and instability.
According to the U.N., about half the population of Afghanistan depends on humanitarian assistance.
A Maryland man mistakenly deported to El Salvador is still there after the U.S. Supreme Court paused a court order mandating his return by the end of Monday. The Trump administration admits he was removed from the country based on a clerical error. But now it's essentially saying tough luck.
Here's CNN's David Culver.
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DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: With the Supreme Court's decision, it means that Kilmar Abrego Garcia will continue on inside of Cecot. That is the mega prison here in El Salvador that is really a fortress of sorts.
It's one that we have been inside., and we've seen the conditions which are extremely as they will even describe it themselves, prison officials that is harsh. And they say it's meant to be that, and its meant to be a place that will prevent people, namely gang members, that they have accused of for years, causing terror to this country.
However, the situation that is now at hand is you have these deportees from the United States who are inside this max security prison, and it's very difficult to get information as to how exactly they're going about day to day, because this is a place that is essentially sealed off from the rest of the world.
I mean, they don't allow visitors. They do have a virtual screening room where you can talk to legal counsel, according to officials, they say that's what it's used for. We've seen that for ourselves.
But as far as just getting regular information out, it is extremely challenging.
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CULVER: So when you look at the case of one individual, Abrego Garcia who as the administration in the U.S. has pointed out was mistakenly deported because of an administrative error, but is refusing to send him back here from El Salvador to the U.S., the question remains, how long will he be inside that facility?
And generally speaking, prison officials will say, when you go into Cecot, you never leave. It is a one-way journey, as they put it.
And so it does then become concerning, obviously, for family members who believe that due process has not been followed through here, not only for Abrego Garcia, but for even other alleged gang members who are being held there.
And then you have an entirely different group, the suspected Tren de Aragua gang members who are also from that deported group from the United States who are being held there as well.
Now, one thing I am hearing from somebody who is familiar with the conditions inside the exact sector where the deportees are being held, is that it is slightly different from what we have seen with the Salvadoran gang members. And it's not to say it's more relaxed necessarily but certainly, as
it's been described to me, a bit less disciplined. So it's almost militant, like when you go into where the Salvadoran gang members are, they're lined up, they don't talk.
The contrast that has been described to me for where the suspected Tren de Aragua gang members are, they're able to have conversation. They're leaning up against the bars. Even I've heard that they're allowed to have sheets.
Now, that sounds strange, but when you think about where Cecot keeps the Salvadoran gang members, it's metal bunk beds, no sheets. Really no comforts of life.
And so it does suggest that for some reason, there may be a distinction in how prison officials are treating these deportees from the United States versus those who they have imprisoned here in El Salvador under their own reasoning.
And perhaps it also suggests that there is an intent at some point that these individuals might actually leave Cecot, something that they say is never done.
And perhaps that is a reason that they might be treated differently, if that is in fact the case. It's something that is increasingly difficult to determine, but something that folks at some point may be able to share firsthand.
And the family of Abrego Garcia certainly hope he will be able to do just that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Still to come, is it too little, too late? Amid a rare outbreak of measles, anti-vaxxer and U.S. Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. walking back some of his unfounded skepticism about the effectiveness of the measles vaccine.
[01:37:28]
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VAUSE: The World Health Organization says cuts in U.S. foreign aid will increase the number of women dying during pregnancy and childbirth. The WHO warns that decades of progress in maternal health care will be undone by what it calls unprecedented funding cuts, forcing providers to reduce staff already and roll back vital services for maternal, newborn and child health, leaving women in multiple countries facing severe repercussions.
Well, after the death of a second child from measles in the U.S. state of Texas, U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who is also a well-known vaccine critic/skeptic, is now stressing the importance of vaccinations.
CNN's Meg Tirrell has the latest. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. went to Texas on Sunday to attend the funeral of this school-age child who died from measles, the second death in this measles outbreak.
The first was another school-age child. They both were unvaccinated. And we know of this child that they were previously healthy, had no previous reported underlying health conditions.
The cause of death was measles, pulmonary failure. And we know that measles can cause pneumonia as a complication of severe disease, which is one of the reasons this virus can be so dangerous.
Now, this is a large and quickly growing outbreak that's really centered in west Texas. That state now reporting 481 cases in this outbreak, 56 hospitalizations and these two deaths.
But this is also spread to nearby states -- to New Mexico, also to Oklahoma and up to Kansas. There's also one death under investigation in New Mexico. And you can see from this line graph that cases, particularly in Texas, are growing very quickly.
An epidemiologist suggests that the fact that there are possibly three deaths in this outbreak suggests there are likely many more cases that haven't been counted, possibly into the thousands.
And so there's a lot of concern that this outbreak is going to continue and will be very large.
98 percent of the cases in Texas were in people who are unvaccinated, or whose vaccine status is unknown. And there's been a lot of push to see a more wholehearted endorsement of vaccination, particularly from Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who is known as an anti- vaccine advocate. Also from the CDC, which has not been communicating to the degree that we are used to in outbreaks of this kind.
However, over the weekend, Secretary Kennedy did post on social media, quote, "the most effective way to prevent the spread of measles is the MMR vaccine". So that is a step in the right direction, health experts say.
[01:44:46]
TIRRELL: But they also want to hear him go farther to say that the vaccine is safe and that people should get it as the best way to prevent measles and to stop this outbreak.
They're also concerned about misinformation. He put in another social media post lauding doctors on the ground in Texas who are providing unapproved treatments for measles. They stress that really vaccination is the best way to prevent this and the best way to stop this outbreak.
(END VIDEOTAPE) VAUSE: Dr. Jonathan Reiner is a CNN medical analyst, as well as professor of medicine and surgery at George Washington University.
Welcome back. It's been a while.
DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Thanks for having me, John.
VAUSE: Ok, so by way of context, here's the U.S. Health Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr., talking about vaccines in recent years. Here he is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR. U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: There's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective. I do believe that autism does come from vaccines.
I see somebody on a hiking trail with -- carrying little baby. And I say to them, better not get them vaccinated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: But now, a change of heart, perhaps posting on X that in response to the measles outbreak, he's ordered the CDC to supply pharmacies and Texas-run clinics with needed MMR vaccines and other medicines and medical supplies.
He goes on to write, "The most effective way to prevent the spread of measles is the MMR vaccine."
That's quite the turnaround, but it seems Kennedy is still unable to say those very two important words "get vaccinated".
DR. REINER: Right. You know, he has spent the last two decades calling into question not just the efficacy but the safety of particularly the MMR vaccine.
He founded the Children's Health Defense, which is a group basically dedicated to casting doubt on the safety and efficacy of vaccines and promoting conspiracy theories.
And I'll note that the really significant reductions that we've seen over the last several years in childhood vaccination rates have come about as a consequence of this pernicious promotion of misinformation about vaccines.
In 2020, in the United States, there were 20 states which exceeded 95 percent vaccination rates for MMR, which is what you need for herd immunity.
In 2023, that number had dropped to 11 states. Really a dramatic reduction.
And this virus is finding these pockets in the country where the vaccination rates are very low, and it's going to continue to spread because of that. VAUSE: And at the same time, RFK is recommending alternative
treatments for measles like these. Here he is.
KENNEDY: Right now we have -- we're delivering Vitamin A, we are providing assistance if people need ambulance rides. They're getting very, very good results. They report from budesonide which is a steroid. It's a 30-year-old steroid.
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VAUSE: What does the science say about those treatments, in particular Vitamin A for measles?
DR. REINER: There is no proof that it works. RFK Jr. has a history of promoting fringe treatments. During, you know, the height of the COVID pandemic, instead of -- instead of encouraging people to get vaccinated, he and folks that allied themselves with him were pushing ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, drugs that I wished were but were shown in multiple clinical trials not to work.
So he has a history of pushing sort of these fringe cures rather than many decades old proven vaccines to prevent measles.
The way to prevent a child from dying from measles is not to give them steroids, you know, or oral antibiotics. The way to prevent a child from dying from measles is to prevent them from getting measles. And we happen to have a 60-year-old vaccine that's 98 percent effective.
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DR. REINER: And in fact, we're seeing that. We're seeing that in Texas right now, 97 to 98 percent of the folks who have acquired measles are unvaccinated.
VAUSE: And in the midst of this measles outbreak, the Trump administration announced more than $11 billion will be cut from the budget of Health and Human Services. Keep in mind, this was money allocated during the pandemic, the COVID pandemic.
Here's part of a statement from HHS. "The COVID 19 pandemic is over, and HHS will no longer waste billions of taxpayer dollars responding to a nonexistent pandemic that Americans moved on from years ago."
VAUSE: There is, on the one hand, a sensible argument about ending funding which was specifically for COVID. But it seems shortsighted since these massive cuts are taking place right now, and the outbreak of measles and this funding is actually impacting how local areas can treat measles.
DR. REINER: Right. And -- but this follows an overall pattern coming from the new HHS administration, which is really to decimate parts of that agency that deal with infectious disease.
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DR. REINER: And what we've seen them do in over the last week is fire leadership in HHS that might push back against RFK Jr.'s agenda.
People like Peter Marks at FDA, Dr. Joanne Marrazzo -- Jean (ph) Marrazzo at NIH. She was the successor to Tony Fauci at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease. Really hollowing out the leadership in the kinds of agencies that we need to fight, you know, the next pandemic.
And again, this is coming not just in the context of this progressing outbreak of measles, but with the looming concern about H5N1 bird flu that has infected about -- that has killed basically 150 million birds, infected a thousand herds of dairy cattle, and infected 70 humans, fortunately not jumped to human-to-human transmission yet. But is basically out there waiting for one unfortunate mutation that would allow it to be transmitted human to human.
Instead of hollowing out these institutions in this country, we need to be bolstering them. And it's really surprising to me, because I would have thought that a president whose administration was destroyed by a pandemic five years ago would understand the importance of having a robust infrastructure to deal with the next threat.
Instead, he's let RFK Jr. go wild.
VAUSE: Yes, it's a good point and one which we should finish on.
Dr. Jonathan Reiner, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it.
DR. REINER: Thanks for having me, John.
VAUSE: It all came down to the final minute as Florida and Houston battled it out for this year's NCAA championship. Coming up, the very latest on who actually won the March Madness.
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VAUSE: World Series champions the L.A. Dodgers visited the White House Monday, keeping with a long-standing tradition of sports champions meeting with the U.S. president.
During the ceremony, Donald Trump mentioned a number of players for their achievements, among them Shohei Ohtani, who became baseball's first to achieve 50 home runs and 50 stolen bases.
The president also praised Mookie Betts, shaking hands with the former Boston Red Sox player who opted not to visit the Trump White House in 2019 after the Sox won the World Series.
The March Madness finale went down to the wire Monday after a narrow win over the Houston Cougars 65 to 63. The Florida Gators have now been crowned NCAA champions.
Florida struggled early against the Houston's defense, and the Cougars went on to build a 12-point lead in the second half.
But in true tournament fashion, the Gators rallied for a comeback down the stretch. With under a minute left in the game, Florida took the lead and held it, stopping Houston's final scoring attempt. There it is. The championship win marks the Gators' third national title.
CNN's Coy Wire caught up with the head of -- head coach of the Gators following Florida's nail-biting victory.
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COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Coach, what does this win mean for you in Gator nation?
TODD GOLDEN, HEAD COACH, FLORIDA GATORS: Obviously we're thrilled, man. It's a heck of a moment, an incredible opportunity to be here. And the fact that we finished it up means everything in the world. Come here.
[01:54:44]
WIRE: Oh, you got your family here. This is an incredible moment. You're the youngest coach since 1983 to get a title. How has this journey been for you?
COACH: It's been great. You know, I've been fortunate to work with great People along the way and have great players. And in three short years, we got the University of Florida's basketball program back where it belongs, which is winning national championships.
WIRE: It's a win in the final seconds. What -- tell us about the mental makeup of your team that enables you to pull off this title.
GOLDEN: They've displayed it all year in adverse conditions and situations. They found a way to step up, hang on to your guts and push through and finish and against one of the best teams in America. We did it again tonight.
Our senior leaders have been a lead all year, and our younger front court players make sure they reach that level that's expected on every night. And led us at 36 wins and led us to 36 wins.
Thank you. Led us in 36 wins. And now we're the national champions.
WIRE: And now you told me after a win you were maybe going to bust out the robot mosh pit with your team.
GOLDEN: I don't know, I don't know, man. I don't got it yet. I got to wait until the team gets in here.
WIRE: Congrats, coach.
GOLDEN: Thanks. Appreciate it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VAUSE: Well, after feuding for two decades, singers Madonna and Elton John apparently they've made up. Madonna posted this image on Instagram on Monday. Just a gentle hug between the two, saying in the caption "we finally buried the hatchet".
She said she confronted him backstage at "Saturday Night Live". They've been fighting since 2004 when Elton first accused Madonna of lip syncing, which he does. He replied to her post saying thank you and quote "big mouth, big mouth". Madonna says they will work together on a song.
Don't go breaking my heart.
Just moments ago, NASA astronaut Jonny Kim and two cosmonauts launched aboard a Russian Soyuz rocket from Kazakhstan to the International Space Station. After a two-orbit, three-hour trajectory, the Soyuz capsule will arrive at the ISS.
The trio will spend about eight months on board the station, serving on the orbital labs expedition 72 and 73 missions. They're expected to return to earth in December if there is one. Hopefully there will be.
Thank you for watching. I'm John Vause.
Please stay with us. CNN NEWSROOM continues with my friend and colleague Rosemary Church.
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