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Judge: White House Showed "Willful Disregard" For Deportation Order; U.S. Stocks Tumble After Fed Chair's Stark Tariff Warning; DOJ Sues Maine For Ignoring Bans On Trans Athletes In High School Sports; Judge Xinis: DOJ Must Show Efforts To Return Abrego Garcia; Tariffs Being Closely Watched By Auto Industry; China Posts Unexpectedly Strong 5.4 Percent GDP Growth In Q1. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 16, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:24]

MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: Hello and welcome to our viewers all around the world. I'm Max Foster.

This is CNN NEWSROOM, beginning with the Trump administration;s high stakes legal battles over deportation, the White House is defiance hitting a major roadblock.

U.S. Federal Judge James Boasberg has now ruled that, quote, probable cause exists to hold some Trump administration officials in criminal contempt. The judge says they violated his orders last month after deporting alleged Venezuelan gang members.

CNN's crime and justice correspondent Katelyn Polantz joins me now.

His real frustration is that he just hasn't had an explanation about what's going on here.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Max, it's not just frustration. These are findings. And this is an opinion and order. And setting up the Justice Department, the Trump administration, to be on the path now to show that they weren't in contempt or to be convicted of criminal contempt. That's where we are now. All of this dates back to March 15th, a Saturday about a month ago, where Judge Boasberg held an emergency court hearing because there were planes taking off three planes, in fact, taking off full of migrants, largely from Venezuela, being sent to El Salvador.

And those people were handed over to the Salvadoran government into a prison for terrorists there. So, they're not in the hands of the U.S. government. But this was done for many of those people. On two of those flights, because President Donald Trump said he wanted to use a specific act, a proclamation, an Alien Enemies Act used in times of war.

Judge Boasberg was looking at that, saying it might not be legal to remove people without more process and so turn the planes around. He told the administration that in the middle of the hearing. But the plane still flew and they delivered those migrants to the Salvadoran prison. Now, Judge Boasberg has looked into it quite extensively and is saying

that throughout him trying to get even basic facts. There's been stonewalling from Justice Department attorneys. There have been cherry-picking of facts, and there have been times where they've been defying him deliberately and gleefully. So, he's saying he now has reason to believe they could be held in criminal contempt, meaning they could be punished quite severely by the court.

What the judge writes as well, quote, the court ultimately determines that the government's actions on that day, March 15th, demonstrate a willful disregard for its order sufficient for the court to conclude that probable cause exists to find the government in criminal contempt. The court does not reach such conclusion lightly or hastily. Indeed, it has given defendants ample opportunity to rectify or explain their actions. None of their responses has been satisfactory.

This is quite an unusual set of events. You don't see criminal contempt proceedings like this very often, especially against the Justice Department. The sitting administration, and we are going to have more of this proceeding. Even if Judge Boasberg was wrong when he was issuing those orders on March 15th. Right now, this is about. Rectifying any ignoring, ignoring of his orders, ignoring the courts. The bigger questions of how the Trump administration treats a federal judge, that is what is going to be tested now with proceedings ahead -- Max.

FOSTER: Showdown. Katelyn Polantz, thank you.

Well, the White House has issued a response of its own to these comments from Judge Boasberg. And Donald Trump has shocked many by claiming he also wants to send homegrown criminals to prisons in El Salvador.

Now, the Justice Department is reviewing its viability and legality.

Jeff Zeleny, how are you keeping across all of this?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Max, this judge who Katelyn was just talking about there, Judge James Boasberg, who's -- he's been one who the president has been focused on really for several weeks, first calling for his impeachment, calling him a liberal radical judge. The facts do not back that up. He was appointed to the bench by President George W. Bush, of course, a Republican. He was elevated on the bench by President Barack Obama. So, he was law school classmates with conservative Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh.

So, all the reporting we've gathered is that this judge is someone who pretty much plays it by the books.

However, the White House has been really pushing back on these rulings and others. But this is the immediate response to the judge's ruling.

The White House communications director, Steven Cheung, is writing this this afternoon. He said: We plan to seek immediate appellate relief. [15:05:04]

The president is 100 percent committed to ensuring that terrorists and criminal illegal migrants are no longer a threat to Americans and their communities across the country.

Of course, this is not just about the administration's immigration program and the deportation program. Ever since the president signed that really extraordinary act into law, only the third time it's been used in American history, always during wartime. That was the linchpin of the whole deportation program. So, we expect to hear more from the president on this.

But, look, a criminal contempt case is serious. There's no doubt about it. All of this comes as, of course, the president is fully discussing immigration. It's something he wants to discuss. Frankly, this is something he ran on. It's much easier for him to talk about this than to deal with the economy and other things that he is much more underwater on, at least in terms of public opinion.

FOSTER: Okay. Jeff, at the White House, appreciate it. Thank you.

Stock markets in the U.S. are sharply lower after the head of the Federal Reserve gave his starkest warning yet on tariffs.

Here's a look at where the markets are in the final hour of trading.

It got pretty negative didn't it, Vanessa, towards the end. And there was even talk of that horrible word stagflation, which is almost impossible to manage.

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, absolutely. And, Jerome Powell didn't say that word explicitly. But if you read between the lines, that's exactly sort of what he was messaging.

That is the mix of high unemployment and high prices and slower growth. It is very, very tricky for the Fed to combat that. And as he was speaking, you can see around 1:30 there on your screen that's between the numbers one and two on your screen.

At around 1:30, that is when Jerome Powell started speaking. And look what happened to the Dow. It started to fall and fall and fall and fall. And now, it's down more than 800 points. As throughout the day, investors were already feeling very concerned over some of the biggest tech stocks out there, like Nvidia, because of regulations that the U.S. government put in place that would affect that company selling to countries like China.

Then you had this news from Jerome Powell where he essentially talked about in the most explicit words that he can talk about it, what tariffs would mean for the U.S. economy and what it would mean for the Fed's ability to do its job. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) JEROME POWELL, CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL RESERVE: The level of tariff increases announced so far is significantly larger than anticipated. And the same is likely to be true of the economic effects, which will include higher inflation and slower growth. Tariffs are highly likely to generate at least a temporary rise in inflation. The inflationary effects could also be more persistent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YURKEVICH: Now he said that as it stands right now, the economy, the U.S. economy is on solid footing. But the uncertainty around tariffs is why he is describing sort of these worst-case scenario outcomes in many ways, like stagflation, like persistent inflation. He said though, however, that everything that the Fed has been looking at now, all the data that the fed has been looking at, but that is backwards looking, I'll say, has indicated that the economy is on enough of a sure footing that they probably will not have to change monetary policy, meaning that in the next fed meeting in May that likely they will hold steady at their current interest rate level.

Now, of course, things can certainly change, Max, as we see escalations of this trade war. If they get very discouraging inflation data. But as it stands right now, Jerome Powell there saying that the economy is in good shape, but he is creating this sense of sort of pessimism around what could come if these tariffs sort of show up in the way that they are seeing they May, which is highly aggressive and a lot more than they were expecting. Of course, Max, we have that 90- day pause in place with those high reciprocal tariffs. Ninety days will be done and over before we know it. And that could certainly change the tune of where this trade war is headed, Max.

FOSTER: Yeah. And some, you know, we've got a real sense of how consumers are feeling as well because they're really worried about the future, what prices are going to do.

So, we saw some evidence of them stockpiling in a major way.

YURKEVICH: Yeah, exactly. So, consumer sentiment here in the United States is at a very, very low level, only the second lowest level since the 1950s. And usually what that means is that people pull back in spending. But in this case, they're also looking forward and seeing sort of higher prices on the horizon.

So, in retail sales for the month of March, they actually spent a lot because they wanted to stockpile in some ways and also spend on bigger ticket items to beat tariffs. So, it's sort of an interesting juxtaposition that people are feeling negatively about the economy. But in this moment, they wanted to spend because, Max, ultimately, they think things are going to get a lot worse.

[15:10:03]

FOSTER: Okay. Vanessa Yurkevich, thank you so much for joining us with that round up.

We're going to turn now to a landmark legal ruling that could have sweeping ramifications for women's rights and trans rights around the world. The United Kingdom's highest court has ruled the legal definition of a woman excludes trans women. The case centered on whether trans women with a gender recognition certificate are protected from discrimination as a woman in the U.K.'s Equality Act.

However, the court did clarify. Trans people still have protection against discrimination on other grounds. Now the group For Women Scotland brought the case and celebrated as the ruling was handed down. Trans groups, meanwhile, described the decision as incredibly worrying.

Salma Abdelaziz has more from London.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: How do you define a woman by law? The United Kingdom's highest court just ruled that the legal definition of a woman excludes trans women. The British Supreme Court's unanimous decision also says, quote, that the concept of sex is binary. A person is either a woman or a man, end quote.

This is as it pertains to the application of the country's equality laws. Transgender people will still have legal protection, the court says.

LORD PATRICK HODGE, U.K. SUPREME COURT DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The unanimous decision of this court is that the terms woman and sex in the Equality Act 2010 refer to a biological woman and biological sex. But we counsel against reading this judgment as a triumph of one or more groups in our society at the expense of another.

ABDELAZIZ: Outside the courtroom, it was For Women Scotland that was celebrating, the campaign group that brought the case, which challenges guidance from the Scottish government, that a trans woman with a gender recognition certificate is legally a woman and therefore entitled to sex-based protections. The group argued those protections only apply to people that they say are born female.

J.K. Rowling, a supporter of the group, has donated to them, according to U.K. media outlets. The Scottish Greens, a political party, said the ruling was a huge blow to some of the most marginalized people in our society and concerning for human rights.

While the ruling stems from a debate in Scotland, it is a decision that will have sweeping consequences for how equality laws are applied across all of the U.K., and its impact will be closely watched by transgender activists around the world.

Salma Abdelaziz CNN, London.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: And now to a showdown between the U.S. state of Maine and the Trump administration over transgender women in sports.

U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi announced a lawsuit against the state for its refusal to comply with a ban on transgender athletes in high school athletics. This after President Trump warned Maine he would pull its federal funding -- funding if it didn't comply with an executive order. Bondi says her department had no choice but to sue the state.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: We have exhausted every other remedy. We tried to get Maine to comply. We don't like standing up here and filing lawsuits. We want to get states to comply with us. Thats what this is about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Well, our chief legal affairs correspondent, Paula Reid, joins us now.

I mean, it's a hugely sensitive issue, isn't it? But the White House is drawing a very clear line on this, and they're going to take action on it.

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. And this has been brewing for a long time because, as you may remember, back in February, President Trump had a widely publicized clash with the governor of Maine when she made it clear that she was not going to abide by the administration s ban on transgender athletes participating in girls sports. In fact, she stood up to Trump and she said, quote, see you in court.

Well, shortly after that, the state of Maine faced a barrage of federal retaliation. The Department of Agriculture, Health and Human Services, the Department of Education, and the Justice Department have all, in one way or another, threatened federal funding over this, the Justice Department signaled that it would file a lawsuit if the state did not comply.

So, it's not surprising here that they filed this lawsuit today alleging that the state is violating Title IX. That's a federal anti- discrimination law.

Now, the state of Maine has said that there are only two transgender girls participating or transgender athletes participating in girls sports in the state. So, it does raise questions about how proportional the federal response has been to this problem.

But look, it is not surprising that they filed this lawsuit. This is something that has been litigated in different states across the country. It was a big issue in the election. I will note that the state of Maine, the governor, did respond today and said, this is not about anything to do with sports or the law. This is about the administration trying to pressure people to comply with their policies.

Now, the attorney general, in that press conference today, she signaled they may target other states, specifically California and Minnesota, if those states do not get on board with the administrations ban.

[15:15:09]

FOSTER: Okay, Paula, thank you.

Still to come, new developments in the case of a man mistakenly deported to El Salvador. The White House doubling down on its defiance.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: A U.S. federal judge has given the White House two weeks to prove its working to bring back Kilmar Abrego Garcia. The Maryland father was mistakenly deported to his native El Salvador and is now housed in a notorious mega prison there.

The U.S. attorney general is adamant that he's not returning to the United States any time soon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BONDI: President Bukele said he was not sending him back. That's the end of the story. If he wanted to send him back, we would give him a plane ride back. There was no situation ever where he was going to stay in this country. None. None.

He would have come back, had one extra step of paperwork and gone back again. But he's from El Salvador, he's in El Salvador. And that's where the president plans on keeping him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: J.D. Vance has spent much of the past two days arguing with social media users over Abrego Garcia's deportation case. The U.S. vice president suggests that mistakes are inevitable, writing, quote, what I -- what I am okay with is the reality that any human system will produce errors.

U.S. Senator Chris Van Hollen, who's currently visiting El Salvador, says the Trump administration is trying to mislead the American public.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): So, I want to emphasize that President Trump and our attorney general, Pam Bondi, and the vice president of the United States are lying when they say that Abrego Garcia has been charged with a crime or as part of MS-13. That is a lie.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Let's discuss with attorney and CNN opinion writer, Paul Reyes.

Thank you so much for joining us.

I mean, this -- there's so much detail here, isn't there, we could go through.

[15:20:02]

But do you think this is a much bigger debate? Really, it's just the White House trying to prove its power against the judiciary.

RAUL REYES, CNN OPINION WRITER: Right. That's -- that's what we're seeing playing out in public view is this sort of power struggle between the administration and the federal judiciary. For me, what I think is, is so important is that we hear a lot of rhetoric from the president, the vice president, and other officials.

But here is the fact, in every -- every Trump administration official who has appeared in court about Mr. Abrego Garcia. Every one of them has acknowledged that he was deported in error by mistake. And the idea that the U.S. cannot bring him back is false.

Presidential administrations in the U.S. have brought people back who are wrongfully deported for decades. In fact, President Trump did it himself with an Iraqi national who was deported by mistake during his first term.

It's not a complicated process. All Bukele would have to do is release him from prison. The U.S. paroles Mr. Abrego back -- Garcia back to the country, and then he can fly home.

But the administration is very much pushing this narrative that it's out of their hands, that he's a dangerous criminal. And we are seeing increasingly that both -- both of these ideas are contradicted by their own statements and appearances in court, by the -- by administration officials.

FOSTER: We just saw him meeting his counterpart from El Salvador. He's making this quite easy, though, isn't he, for President Trump? Because there's no pressure from El Salvador to get him back to the U.S.

REYES: Right. There's no pressure. You know, both presidents of El Salvador and the and President Trump are sort of pretending that their hands are tied when there are options that, that, that they can pursue.

I do think now that this has case has attracted international attention, we will see growing pushback. Right now, a poll that was out this week from "Reuters" said that 82 percent of Americans believe that the president should and his administration should obey court orders. And it is enshrined in our Constitution that all people, not just citizens, whether or not they're criminals, that all people receive due process, and that involves being able to make their case in court on an individual basis.

No one is saying that Mr. Abrego Garcia received this, right? That's -- that's -- what's at the heart of the case. And I think the fact that the Trump administration is digging in their heels at this point is very troublesome considering Mr. Abrego Garcia is currently living in a place that is known for a horrific, inhumane conditions. Even the U.S. government in 2023 cited this prison for rampant human rights abuses, lack of medical attention and so forth.

So, this gentleman's life is hanging in the balance as we speak. And going forward, it's still a question mark of -- of what the outcome will be, or if he indeed will be alive or in good health to -- to be able to come back to the U.S. and make his case.

FOSTER: But, you know, in the most simplistic part of this argument is they just want him out of the country because he's a dangerous criminal and they don't want him back into the country because he's a dangerous criminal. What evidence is there of that?

REYES: So far, aside from all the rhetoric put out by people like J.D. Vance, there hasn't been any evidence introduced in court that he is a gang member or any type of dangerous criminal. He did have temporary, lawful status in the U.S. that was awarded him by an immigration judge. There were some prior allegations that he was a member of a gang member by a policeman, a police officer who has since been who has since pleaded guilty and then suspended from the force for inappropriate conduct, in a separate case.

So, despite all the rhetoric, the heart of this matter, whether or not Mr. Abrego Garcia was ever a member of the gang, that has not been clearly established. And when we -- when we look at all these individuals sent to El Salvador's prisons by the administration, we see from CBS News, they found that 70 percent of those individuals had no criminal record in the U.S. Bloomberg news here in the U.S. did. Their analysis found that 90 percent of those individuals had no criminal history in the U.S. so the only thing I can say for certain as we look ahead is we're going to see pronounced prolonged legal battles over the status of these migrants, who, in my view were improperly removed from the country.

FOSTER: Raul Reyes, thank you very much for your thoughts on that. Thank you.

REYES: Thank you.

FOSTER: Now, to the Middle East and the United Nations estimates that 500,000 Palestinians have been displaced in Gaza over the last month since the cease fire ended on March the 18th.

[15:25:01]

Meanwhile, the Israeli military has turned 30 percent of the Gaza Strip into a security perimeter, buffer zone.

Defense Minister Israel Katz says the IDF has expanded its operations since the ceasefire collapsed last month, and will remain in Gaza, Lebanon and Syria as part of any temporary or permanent solution.

Now, automakers are bracing for impact over tariffs. After the break, Richard Quest will join us with what auto industry experts at the New York auto show are saying about it all.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) FOSTER: Well, the World Trade Organization has a dire warning tonight about U.S. tariffs. According to a new report, Donald Trump's global trade war will slow global economic growth.

The WTO estimates global trade will shrink 2/10 of a percent compared to a 2.7 percent growth forecast without the tariffs. The organization expects the impact to be even greater in North America, one of the major sectors caught in the middle of all of this is the auto industry.

Richard Quest is at the New York Auto Show for us today.

And it's all about making cars in America. I gather.

RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Yeah. I mean, everybody here is trying to point out that their cars are made in the United States, whether it's Kia who says it's been doing it for years, or Nissan, Toyota, which have -- I mean, to be fair, most of the overseas car manufacturers have had very sizable domestic production, particularly in right to work states in the South of the country. And they're now trumpeting that more and more.

But here's where it gets sort of slightly ridiculous. -- the entire foreign manufacturers here have all been built around NAFTA and the USMCA, Canada, Mexico and the United States, where the vehicles -- I mean, the whole thing was designed to go backwards and forwards, up and down, in and out between the three countries.

[15:30:17]

And now, of course, that's being clobbered. And what the administration is saying is, if you're making a car in America, it has to be made, and the parts have to be made, and it has to be made here. Otherwise, you're going to be tariffed.

FOSTER: We're looking at the markets, Richard. They are tumbling pretty sharply after a certain speech.

QUEST: Yes. This was Jerome Powell who said that the he basically confirmed. I mean, I don't know why everybody is so surprised. He basically spoke the truth that dare not speak its name.

He said that there's going to be inflation. Theres going to be persistent inflation. There could be a challenge between the Fed's dual mandate of low of price stability and full employment. And he made it clear that if that becomes a battle, they will deal with the most urgent first.

So, if you have a choice, do we bring in employment and unemployment down or do we bring inflation down, which are somewhat contradictory in terms of strategy? It's inflation. They're going to be putting inflation. And that's why the market is off so sharply. Because, clearly, interest rates are hardening not softening.

FOSTER: Yeah. Okay. Richard, we'll keep an eye on it, and you'll be back at the top of the hour. Now, new numbers from China show the country's economy grew stronger

there than expected in the first quarter, before President Trump's tariffs kicked in, though.

CNN's Kristie Lu Stout has more on that.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: China's first quarter GDP data is out, and it reveals growth in the world's second largest economy. Just as President Donald Trump dials up the tariff pressure, China's economy grew 5.4 percent year on year. It defied expectations.

I remember China is facing multiple economic challenges as it struggles to rebound from a post-pandemic slump, including low consumer spending, low consumer confidence, high youth unemployment and an ongoing property slump.

China has set an ambitious growth target of 5 percent for the year, but economists say that will be hard to reach given the trade war. Trump has jacked up tariffs on many Chinese imports to an astounding, 145 percent. And China has hit back with retaliatory tariffs and other measures, including a curb on rare earth exports, sparking fears of a prolonged trade war.

So, investment banks are slashing their China growth forecast for the year. UBS has lowered its forecast from 4 percent to 3.4 percent for the year. The bank says this, quote, we expect Chinas exports to the U.S. to fall by two thirds in the coming quarters, and its overall exports to fall by 10 percent in USD terms in 2025. The latter also takes into account slower U.S. and global growth.

Now, Citi adds this, quote, we see little scope for a deal between the U.S. and China after recent escalations.

Now, all eyes on whether Beijing will roll out any new stimulus. China's politburo is set to meet later this month to set its policy agenda.

Kristie Lu Stout, CNN, Hong Kong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: Still to come, we take a closer look at that landmark ruling here in the U.K. on the definition of a woman under the law.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:36:33]

FOSTER: Let's take a closer look at that landmark ruling from the U.K. Supreme Court. The country's highest court has ruled the legal definition of a woman excludes trans women. The group For Women Scotland brought the case centered on whether trans women are protected from discrimination as women under the nation's equality act. They argued, including a trans woman as a woman under the law could have ramifications for single sex spaces, such as changing rooms or hospital wards.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUSAN SMITH, CO-DIRECTOR, FOR WOMEN SCOTLAND: This is not about prejudice or bigotry as some people would say. It's not about hatred for another community. It's just about saying that there are differences. And biology is one of those differences, and we just need protections based on that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Well, the order did say, however, trans women were protected from discrimination on other grounds. Trans groups called the ruling concerning pointing to rise in hate crimes linked to sexual identity.

Let's bring in Hannah Ford. She's the employment partner at Stevens and Bolton law firm in the U.K.

Thank you so much for joining us. This is, you know, a large part of this debate was how uncomfortable many women felt about trans women coming into what were meant to be, you know, single sex spaces, wasn't it? I wonder if you could explain how in practice things are going to change now in the U.K.?

HANNAH FORD, EMPLOYMENT PARTNER, STEVENS AND BOLTON: Well, many U.K. employers have adopted policies of inclusivity around single sex spaces, essentially giving trans women with a gender recognition certificate a ticket into those spaces. And now they're going to have to change those policies and to exercise some judgment as to whether they continue to allow that.

They can't impose a blanket ban. They still need to consider whether its proportionate to disallow trans people into those single sex spaces. But it certainly means that it's more difficult for them. And then you secondly, have the issue that for trans people, a feeling of not being welcomed, being excluded, being marginalized, where do I go if I can't go in the sex changing area that the bathrooms of the gender which is written on my -- my -- my certificate. So, it's really problematic for U.K. employers.

FOSTER: It will be. But then he was very clear, wasn't he, the judge that were seeing now that trans women still do have protections under discrimination and harassment law. Are they just can't go for this equality law effectively?

FORD: Well, the Equality Act has always protected people with the characteristic of undergoing gender reassignment. That hasn't changed. And trans people do have certain protections in the sense if they're perceived to be a particular gender and discriminated as a result, they're protected.

So, there is a sense that, yes, there is -- there is some protection under the Equality Act. But make no mistake, this is a hugely anti- trans community move. The Supreme Court here has issued a judgment which is regressive for that community. FOSTER: So that's the balance, right? But he was very much going back

to, where this law was born and giving women equal rights to men and keeping it and just being true to the original law and saying if the government wanted to change the law, it could. This was just how it interpreted the law. And trans women aren't women under the law.

[15:40:00]

FORD: Yes. Well, I mean, the Equality Act refers to the protected characteristic of sex. And that's the issue, really? What does sex mean? And here the Supreme Court has said, well, sex is simplistic. It just means biological sex. It means what you, the gender you were born into and you don't need to overlay it with a gender recognition certificate that adds a complexity that employers don't need to grapple with now.

So, it's certainly by introducing a binary concept of sex, simplifying, providing clarity, and making it less complicated in that sense.

FOSTER: Obviously, many of the campaigners here are celebrating one of the arguments they would make is a trans woman coming into a woman's space, could be -- could make a woman vulnerable effectively because, you know, of a physical difference between the two. And there have been cases of, of that, haven't they? Very isolated cases.

So, you know, was this a decision about protecting women?

FORD: Yes. That's the balance which the Supreme Court were kind of grappling with. And essentially the reason why the women's campaign group won was on that ground, really that, that, duty of care stuff, you know, whether women should have exclusive spaces. And we've seen a flurry of tribunal litigation on the point a group of NHS nurses feeling threatened in their in their changing space.

So -- but at the same time, employers have a duty to create an inclusive working environment where people can come to work as their, as their selves and -- and can feel safe. And that applies equally to the trans -- trans community. So that -- that's the real challenge for employers is balancing that tension and trying to deal with that in a way that's a salve towards your workforce as a whole.

FOSTER: Okay. Well, the law was cleared up, and as you say in practice, it's going to be a real juggle, isn't it?

Hannah, thank you so much.

FORD: OK.

FOSTER: Melinda Gates says she worries that American democracy is being pulled apart at the seams. The billionaire philanthropist sat down with CNN's Abby Phillip to talk about everything from politics to Melinda's divorce from Bill Gates. She told Abby how she's learned to work on her own.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MELINDA FRENCH GATES, PHILANTHROPIST & AUTHOR, "THE NEXT DAY": We had a board. We also had -- there were two of us. There were co-chairs. And so, we, you know, we had to agree. But now, you know, doing it on my own. It just feels right. I can step fully into my own voice, use my own resources, make my own decisions. And that feels great.

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN HOST: You have three beautiful children. And you experienced this divorce when they were -- most of them were older. What has it been like to go through an incredibly public separation and walk your kids through that process, too?

GATES: I speak in the book a bit about this divorce, and the only reason I did that is because my book is about transitions, and I didn't feel like I could talk about a transition without talking about this huge one I had, which was a divorce, and it would be inauthentic to not speak about it.

And unfortunately, so many American families go through it. All I can say is it's not something I would wish on any family ever. It's painful for everybody involved.

PHILLIP: You write about being with your daughter Phoebe, and she was scrolling through her phone. She was a little younger then. Watching these headlines. You also talk about how Bill you said betrayed your values. When you realized that for yourself, how did you explain that to Phoebe?

GATES: She understood. She knew what had happened. She had enough information about what happened, that she understood that I needed to move along. And it was sad for all of us.

PHILLIP: You supported Vice President Harris, who lost the election, which I'm sure was disappointing to you. Do you have a sense -- what's your theory of why she was not successful? Was it sexism? Was it the economy? Was it all of the above?

GATES: Well, I think there -- there were several factors and we don't have all the data yet. I'm a data hound to know.

But look, I do think Americans wanted a change, right? And they weren't happy with the economy. And I don't know all of the other factors, but people clearly voted.

And so, my job -- I was absolutely disappointed in the election. But my job is to say we have a functioning democracy. How do we keep it functioning well? Because again, I've traveled to many, many countries and if you don't have a healthy press, you cannot have a healthy democracy.

PHILLIP: We have a functioning democracy. There are people who would hear you say that and say, I don't know. They're seeing things that scare them. Are you worried? I mean, you've operated in all kinds of -- in political environments across the world.

GATES: I think we are seeing our democracy being pulled at by the seams. [15:45:00]

But I trust the people who are in some of the key roles. The Founding Fathers set us up as a system of checks and balances, and so it takes all of us to use our voice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Gates.

Now, tempers boiled over at Republican town halls on Tuesday, offering a glimpse into the frustration building over some of President Donald Trump's policies. In Iowa, Republican Senator Chuck Grassley was repeatedly urged to stand up to the president.

In Acworth, Georgia, chaotic scenes broke out during a town hall held by House Republican Marjorie Taylor Greene.

(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)

FOSTER: Twice police were seen using stun guns to subdue people who resisted being removed from the meeting.

CNN's Ryan Young was at that town hall.

And they were expecting something, weren't they, because the security was already pretty tight.

RYAN YOUNG, CNN SENIOR U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, they were expecting something, Max. And of course, it was about 11 hours before this town hall started that they decided to let the public know what the location would be. Security was very high. Forty officers on the inside, at least another 40 on the outside, and more additional resources nearby.

There were protesters. More than 100 of them stood outside. They honked their horns. You could hear them chanting on the inside.

But really, the story was about the two men who were getting tased. And of course, at some point they actively resisted being pushed out of the room. But at some point, it turned and I could even remember hearing the crowd scream, tase him, tase him, tase him. The tasers were fired.

Now, to be fair to the police officers, they did try to move the men along, and they did actively resist with their feet. But people were shocked. There were people who were nearby us who were obviously shaken by this. A lot of folks have never seen someone get tased before.

Marjorie Taylor Greene herself did not move from her position. She did not seem scared or worried. She kept addressing the crowd. She kept saying it should be a peaceful demonstration. If you want to demonstrate, go across the street.

Also, take a listen to how she dealt with some hecklers who decided to email some questions. Take a listen to how her back and forth kind of with herself went.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): DOGE gutting our government with a chainsaw approach and the utter destruction and ignoring of our constitution and rule of law. He is not well, physically or mentally.

Poor Christina. Poor. Poor Christina.

Now, I'm sure, Christina, you think that you're pretty smart. But the reality is you are being completely brainwashed by whatever source of news you listen to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

YOUNG: Yeah, and if we just focus on that, rabblerousers that happened, you would almost forget that she was there for her town hall. This is a new district for the congresswoman. She wanted to go there.

They assigned this town hall back in January. She did focus on the fact of fighting China, talking about the spread of illegal drugs across the border, having stronger border security and telling Americans they need to get ready to tighten their own wallets, because there probably be some pain as we fight with the tariffs against the rest of the world.

So, she was very clear to get her message out. And I will tell you, most of the room was there for her in support of her, but there were dozens and dozens of people who were inside that room who wanted their voices heard as well. In all, three people arrested, ten escorted outside the room. And there were a lot of people who were saying they wanted to actively resist, resist even more -- Max.

FOSTER: Okay, Ryan, thank you. Democrats, too, have faced their own criticism for not standing up to Donald Trump, but donors have been fast to open their wallets to those challenging the U.S. president.

Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria. Ocasio-Cortez raised more than $9.5 million during the first quarter of this year. Right now, she's joining Senator Bernie Sanders for a rally in Montana as part of his nationwide fighting oligarchy tour.

Meanwhile, in a new interview, CNN's Jake Tapper, actor George Clooney is speaking out about the controversial "New York Times" op-ed that he wrote last year urging Joe Biden to drop his reelection bid.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: You yourself did something that a lot of people would call brave when you wrote your op-ed.

GEORGE CLOONEY, ACTOR: Well, I don't know if it was brave. It was -- it was a civic duty because I found that people on my side of the street, you know, I'm a Democrat. It was a Democrat in Kentucky. So, I get it. When -- when I saw people on my side of the street not telling the

truth, I thought that was time to --

TAPPER: People still mad at you for that?

CLOONEY: Some people, sure. It's okay. You know, listen, the idea of freedom of speech, you know, the specific idea of it is, you know, you can't demand freedom of speech and then say, but don't say bad things about me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:50:03]

FOSTER: That full interview airs today on "THE LEAD WITH JAKE TAPPER", 5:00 p.m. in New York. That's 10:00 p.m. here in London.

Still to come tonight, truth, justice and the Canadian way. Meet Captain Canuck and find out why he's making a comeback.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: President Trump's ongoing trade war against Canada has had one unexpected effect. It's led to a boost in the popularity of Canada's very own comic book superhero. He burst onto the scene decades ago, but his fight for truth, justice and the Canadian way is just as relevant today, it seems.

Paula Newton reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CAPTAIN CANUCK: Happy Canada Day, folks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, Canuck. Get moving. Theres a holiday crowd out there and we have less than three minutes.

PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Canada's comic book superhero Captain Canuck is back, and this time he's taking on U.S. President Donald Trump.

In this 50th anniversary issue, Captain Canuck fights to protect Canada's independence from the U.S. Canuck's co-creator Richard Comely says he wanted to bring the maple leaf covered hero back after Trump said he wanted Canada to become the 51st U.S. state and started his trade war with allied countries.

RICHARD COMELY, CO-CREATOR, CAPTAIN CANUCK: All of a sudden, Trump gets into office and he starts talking about annexation and tariffs. And yes, all of a sudden, Canadians are looking to Captain Canuck as a symbol. And it's basically to them, Captain Canuck symbolizes independence.

We -- no, thank you. We have our own independent. We have our own symbols. NEWTON: Since 1975, Captain Canuck has been a symbol of Canadian

strength, with story lines about fighting off foreign powers and groups who tried to take over Canada.

COMELY: Never, never in any of those stories was it America that was going to be taking over Canada?

NEWTON: Captain Canuck has been popular in Canada for years, with a countless number of comic books, spinoffs, and even a web series. Comely says he has received lots of new interest in the character since political tensions began to rise between the U.S. and Canada.

COMELY: So, in a sense, we have Mr. Trump to thank for a bit of resurgence.

NEWTON: Paula Newton, CNN, Ottawa.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FOSTER: And before we go, a quick check on those U.S. markets. As we approach the closing bell on Wall Street, it's been going down and down and down.

[15:55:01]

Stocks took a turn just after that speech from Fed Chair Jerome Powell. He spoke in Chicago. He admitted Donald Trump's tariffs would likely have much bigger impact than expected and could cause higher inflation. That sent all three major indices lower, combined with lower growth as well. The Nasdaq is the worst of the lot, though, down more than 3 percent at this point.

Now, the Dow was off by about 1,000 points a few moments ago, but it is recovering slightly. It just shows what a sort of rollercoaster it is for investors right now.

Thanks for joining me here on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Max Foster.

Richard has more on that in "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS".