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Rep. Chris Van Hollen Back In U.S. After Meeting With Abrego Garcia; Trump's Immigration Policy Garners Strongest Approval; Trump Ready To Recognize Russian Control Of Crimea; Judge Pauses Mass Layoffs At Consumer Financial Protection Bureau; Trump Wants To Redefine "Harm" For Endangered Species; White House Promotes COVID "Lab Leak" Theory On New Site; Europe Working To Lure Researchers From U.S.; Vatican Prepares For Easter And Pope Determined To Remain Visible; Mexico City Marks Good Friday With Passion Play. Aired 5-6a ET

Aired April 19, 2025 - 05:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[05:00:37]

KIM BRUNHUBER, CNN HOST: United States, Canada and all around the world. I'm Kim Brunhuber. This is CNN NEWSROOM.

The White House now faces a setback in using the Alien Enemies Act for deportations. While details of the late night Supreme Court decision. President Trump indicates he's ready to hand Vladimir Putin a huge win when it comes to Ukraine. While the latest on ceasefire negotiations. Plus, the U.S. faces a potential brain drain. Why it may be easier than ever for foreign universities and research groups to recruit American scientists.

MAN 1: Live from Atlanta. This is CNN NEWSROOM with Kim Brunhuber.

BRUNHUBER: After several temporary legal victories for President Donald Trump's immigration crackdown, the Supreme Court just hours ago handed the administration a big setback. In a brief order, the nation's highest court temporarily blocked deportations of Venezuelan migrants in Texas under the Alien Enemies Act.

Attorneys for the migrants had filed an emergency appeal after a judge declined to pause the flights, saying he didn't think he had the power to do so. Now this, as an appeals court, paused the judge's plans to hold the administration in contempt for allegedly defying his orders in the high profile deportation dispute.

And Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen is back in the U.S. after meeting with Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Maryland man wrongly deported to El Salvador. Van Hollen told reporters Friday that Abrego Garcia had been moved out of CECOT, El Salvador's notoriously brutal prison but said he remains traumatized by his time there. CNN's Senior U.S. National Correspondent David Culver has more on their meeting and the Trump administration's response.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID CULVER, CNN SENIOR U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: A photo op that is sparking political spin from all sides. Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen, sitting next to Kilmar Abrego Garcia, the Maryland resident whose deportation has become a flashpoint in President Trump's mass deportation efforts and his clashes with the courts.

CHRIS VAN HOLLEN, U.S. SENATE DEMOCRAT: This case is not just about one man. It's about protecting the constitutional rights of everybody who resides in the United States of America.

CULVER: Van Hollen met with Abrego Garcia late Thursday in a San Salvador hotel.

VAN HOLLEN: I called Jennifer to tell her that I had met with Kilmar and I told her what he said to me, which was first and foremost, that he missed her and his family.

CULVER: Abrego Garcia's wife described the news of her husband's condition as a prayer answered, adding that she's relieved to know her husband is alive. Deported last month, despite a 2019 U.S. immigration court order prohibiting his return to El Salvador, Abrego Garcia was put on a plane and sent straight to El Salvador's notorious terrorism confinement center, CECOT. The administration, first called Abrego Garcia deportation a mistake in court but now stand by it.

In the Oval Office Monday, Salvadoran President Nayib Bukele sat next to President Donald Trump. Both leaders defending Abrego Garcia deportation and imprisonment, with President Trump deferring to others to explain.

PAM BONDI, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: That's up to El Salvador if they want to return him, that's not up to us.

MAN 2: We're not very fond of releasing terrorists into our country.

CULVER: On Wednesday, Senator Van Hollen traveled to El Salvador, meeting with the country's Vice President. And on Thursday, he tried to access CECOT without permission. We visited CECOT just days before Van Hollen attempted his visit. Officials took us into sector four, where suspected MS-13 and 18th Street gang members are kept. Some convicted, others still awaiting trial. But we were not allowed in other sectors where the newest deportees, including Abrego Garcia, are believed to be held.

Perhaps most surprising is that the first mention of Van Hollen's meeting with Abrego Garcia came from President Bukele. He posted several photos with a seemingly sarcastic caption. "Kilmar Abrego Garcia miraculously risen from the death camps and torture, now sipping margaritas with Senator Van Hollen in the tropical paradise of El Salvador." He then added that Abrego Garcia gets the honor of staying in El Salvador's custody.

VAN HOLLEN: As we were talking, one of the government people came over and deposited two other glasses on the table with ice and I don't know if it was salt or sugar around the top but they look like margaritas.

[05:05:09]

Let me just be very clear. Neither of us touched the drinks that were in front of us.

CULVER: The photos Bukele selected intentional, according to a source close with the Salvadoran President. One of them clearly showing Abrego Garcia arm tattoos. The source saying that that is intended to hint at gang affiliations which have been publicly alleged but not legally proven. Conservative allies say the meeting is proof that Democrats are siding with a suspected MS-13 gang member but neither the U.S. nor El Salvador has filed formal charges against Abrego Garcia and his attorneys maintain he has no gang ties and yet he remains in Salvadoran custody.

Now one thing that stands out to me from Senator Van Hollen's press conference is he says Abrego Garcia as of several days ago, is no longer being held in CECOT, the terrorism confinement center, that instead he was moved to another prison. The reason that's significant is Salvadoran officials have told me repeatedly, if you're considered to be a gang member, then you are to go to CECOT.

The other prisons in El Salvador are meant for lesser criminals. And so it's a bit contradictory if they're going to still continue to consider Abrego Garcia to be a gang member or even as President Bukele has suggested, a terrorist, if he's not being held in a facility that's meant for that level of criminal.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BRUNHUBER: A federal judge has ordered that a Turkish doctoral student at Tufts University, currently held in Louisiana, must be returned to Vermont. The judge said Rumeysa Ozturk must be transferred by May 1st for a hearing over what her lawyers call retaliation for an op-ed piece she co-wrote in the student newspaper. The 30-year-old was seized by immigration officials as she walked along a street in a Boston suburb on March 25th.

Meanwhile, another federal judge is blocking the deportation of 133 international students. The U.S. government revoked their student visas and the students sued to get them back. The judge on Friday issued a temporary restraining order allowing the students to stay in the U.S. The decision also means their legal status must be reinstated under a Homeland Security system.

The White House has targeted international students as part of its massive changes to immigration policy. So where do voters stand on the Trump administration's immigration crackdown? CNN's Chief Data Analyst Harry Enten breaks down the numbers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRY ENTEN, CNN CHIEF DATA ANALYST: Let's just talk about the most basic metric you can look at, which is Donald Trump's net approval rating on immigration. In his first term, he was underwater at this point, 12 points more of the public, in fact, disapproved than approved of the job he was doing.

But look at where we are now in April of 2025, he's actually slightly above water at plus one point. This is very much unlike the economy where he was above water in term one and is now below water. On immigration, it's the exact opposite of what's going on. And more than that, the numbers have actually stayed pretty steady since January, since, of course, he came into office.

A different way that we can look at this is compare what was going on under Joe Biden with what is going on under Donald Trump. And a way we can this is on immigration. What track are we on? The right track or the wrong track?

Back in December, just 14% of the public said we were on the right track. 62%, my goodness gracious. The vast majority said we were on the wrong track. Look at where we are now in April, though. Look at this. 45%of the country says we're on the right track, compared to just 42% who were on the wrong track.

So the plurality now say we're on the right track when it comes to immigration. Very much unlike what we saw under Joe Biden. Now under Donald Trump, the plurality say we're on the right track, not on the wrong track when it comes to immigration policy.

So this is a great question. Deport all undocumented immigrants, that is, voters favoring a government effort to deport all 11 million. Look at where we are now in 2025, 56% the majority of voters agree with this policy support it just 43% oppose. That is a massive rise from where we were in 2016, when, of course, Donald Trump was running for the Republican nomination the first time around, when it was just 38%. The American public is much more so on Donald Trump's side now than back when he was running the first time around.

Now, of course, this is the public at large, right? Let's dive a little bit more into the crosstabs. And this should give you a very interesting look at where the public is. All right. Deport more immigrants here illegally. Well, not much of a surprise, Jake (ph). 90% of Republicans agree with that

But look, in the middle of the electorate. Look here. We get 61% of independents agreeing with that. The clear majority. And how about among Democrats? Even there, you get about a third of Democrats agreeing with the idea that we should deport more immigrants who are here illegally.

So yes, there are some specific issue polling which might not necessarily look great for Donald Trump. But when you look specifically at immigration and you dive into the crosstabs and you look at Democrats, independents and Republicans, it's not much of a surprise that at this particular point in time, the slight it is slight but still, the plurality of Americans give Donald Trump the thumbs up on immigration, which is very much unlike what we see with his policies at large and certainly on the economy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[05:10:10]

BRUNHUBER: On Friday, students at Florida State University were allowed to return to the site of Thursday's mass shooting. Many collected belongings left behind when they ran from the scene. The university also held a vigil to honor the victims of the shooting. The school's President spoke about the victims and said, it's tragic, that, quote, "We have to continue to endure this ridiculous violence for no apparent reason. Students also expressed their feelings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAN #3: It's just surreal, you know? It feels like it's in a horror movie. It should be out of a horror movie. You know, you just don't -- things like this should not happen in real life. And just to see that this is what it takes to bring people together, to bring like flowers, places to all be one -- I mean, Florida states already a united place but it's just it -- shouldn't take a shooting to make everyone feel more, you know, together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: Investigators are trying to determine the motive behind the attack, which killed two and injured five others.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF LAWRENCE REVELL, TALLAHASSEE POLICE: At this point, there does not appear to be any connection at all between the shooter and any of the victims. So we will continue to vet that out. We'll continue to follow the leads that come in. But at this current time, there does not appear to be any connection between the shooter and again, even one of the victims.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: Police say the man suspected of the shooting will be charged with first degree murder and other charges.

The U.S. President is reportedly ready to make a concession that would amount to a huge victory for the Kremlin. It would involve a transfer of land, which Ukraine has pledged never to give up. Well, that story ahead.

And U.S. and Iranian delegations are in Rome today for high stakes talks on Iran's nuclear program.

Plus, a judge pauses the termination of hundreds of employees at the consumer financial protection bureau. We'll have those stories and much more coming up after the break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[05:15:55]

BRUNHUBER: U.S. is reportedly ready to accept an idea that's been a nonstarter for Ukraine since the Russian invasion began. A diplomatic source says President Donald Trump is prepared to recognize Russia's control over Crimea. The source says that's included in the framework of a U.S. peace proposal presented to both sides and to Europeans this week. But more details reportedly need to be worked out in upcoming talks.

Now, that's happening after U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio said the U.S. should be ready to walk away from the negotiations if peace isn't reached soon. The President didn't rule out but says he doesn't want it to come to that. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP: U.S. PRESIDENT: If for some reason one of the two parties makes it very difficult, we're just going to say you're foolish, you're fools, you're horrible people and we're going to just take a pass. But hopefully we won't have to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: We're also getting reports of a new barrage of Russian strikes across Ukraine. They've reportedly killed at least one person and left 16 others injured overnight. For more on Nada Bashir joins us from London. So Nada, let's start with those latest controversial comments from the Trump administration on a peace proposal.

NADA BASHIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're certainly hearing that mounting pressure from the Trump administration on both sides and both Ukraine and Russia to work toward securing some sort of peace agreement based on that framework that has been presented by the United States.

And, of course, that pressure is really reflective of the frustration that sources say is present within the Trump administration, that there hasn't been the kind of progress that U.S. President Donald Trump had hoped to see with regards to closing those gaps in the current peace proposal and trying to get toward that deal. President Trump, of course, coming into office earlier this year, confident that he would be the one to secure an end to the conflict in Ukraine. But clearly we are still some ways away from a final agreement between Russia and Ukraine.

As you mentioned, the U.S. Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, issuing those words of caution and warning that the U.S. may indeed take a step back and withdraw from any sort of role in mediating or working with both sides to secure that peace agreement, if progress isn't seen in the coming days. It remains to be seen whether that is reflective of the U.S.'s commitment to providing support on the military front as well. But clearly that frustration and pressure is mounting.

And as you heard there, those words were echoed somewhat by the President himself. Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office late on Friday, President Trump said he wanted to see enthusiasm from both sides, enthusiasm to end the war and said that he did feel that he would see that enthusiasm soon. But again, no clear timeline, no clear deadline as to when exactly the U.S. wants to see this progress in the talks and negotiations.

At this current point in time, no comment from the President as well with regards to whether this could be a point of threat, whether the U.S.'s commitment to support could be at risk at this stage. But we did also hear a more positive outlook, perhaps, on the current state of talks and where they could head from the Vice President. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JD VANCE, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: -- the negotiations. I won't prejudge them but we do feel optimistic that we can hopefully bring this war, this very brutal war, to a close.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASHIR: Now we know, of course, that the U.S. has put forward a broad framework for some sort of deal between Ukraine and Russia. It has been working with its European counterparts at this stage. That framework, according to officials familiar with the talks, would see a ceasefire secured along the front lines but also, crucially, a huge concession being made.

The U.S. saying that it would recognize Russian control over occupied Crimea would be a huge win for the Russian President, Vladimir Putin, of course, after Russia illegally annexed the Ukrainian territory back in 2014. It is something that Ukrainian officials have said that they do not want to see, have described it, in fact, as a nonstarter. But clearly this is a key focus for those ongoing talks in negotiations.

And we are expecting those talks between U.S. officials, along with their European partners, to continue over the coming days. We've heard from officials and sources familiar with that framework currently on the on the table, saying that there are still significant gaps which need to be narrowed on that deal.

[05:20:07]

BRUNHUBER: Yeah. And then not a briefly turning to those latest strikes. What more can you tell us?

BASHIR: That's right. We have some information coming in with regards to the strike that we saw Russian strikes overnight in Ukraine. At least one person killed in the Donetsk region and across the country. We've seen at least 16 people injured following strikes, which targeted Kharkiv, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia. We've seen video coming in from Ukrainian emergency services of firefighters attempting to put out flames and fires. Following those strikes, the Ukrainian air force has said that 87 drones and 8 missiles were launched by Russia overnight into Ukrainian territory. Kim?

BRUNHUBER: All right. Appreciate that. Nada Bashir, thanks so much.

Iran's foreign minister has arrived in Rome ahead of the second round of nuclear talks with the U.S. Today. U.S. Middle East envoy Steve Witkoff is also expected to be there. And as they did before, Omani officials will mediate. U.S. Officials have waffled on setting stricter lines on Iran with some calling for its entire nuclear program to be fully dismantled, not just the weapons component. Iran is accusing the Trump administration of sending mixed signals. The U.S. President reiterated Friday that Iran can't have a nuclear weapon. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I'm for stopping Iran very simply from having a nuclear weapon. They can't have a nuclear weapon. I want Iran to be great, and prosperous, and terrific.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: CNN's Ben Wedeman joins us live from Rome. So Ben, bring us up to speed on the latest and what we're expecting.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're expecting these talks to begin at some point today. It's not quite clear exactly when. At the Omani embassy here in Rome, it will involve Abbas Araghchi, who is the Iranian Foreign Minister and Steve Witkoff, the Special Envoy of the United States, mediated by Badr bin Hamad Al Busaidi, who's the Omani Foreign Minister.

Now last week, when those talks -- those indirect talks happened in Oman, it was at a villa in Muscat, the Omani capital, where the Omani Foreign Minister shuttled between two rooms divided by a reception area between the two delegations. Now, we understand that the same format will happen at the talks today, although it is expected that the two sides will actually meet directly at some point during those negotiations.

Now, after last week's talks, both sides, the White House and the Iranian government described the talks as constructive. Now, since then, the Iranians have put out sort of floated a proposal whereby they would gradually reduce their enrichment of uranium down to the same levels as the 2015 JCPOA, the Joint Comprehensive Program of Action, which was worked out by the Obama administration, then scrapped by the Trump administration. And in exchange, the United States and other countries would reduce the sanctions and eventually eliminate them altogether against Iran.

Now, the message is putting out being put out by the Trump administration are somewhat confusing. Witkoff, for instance, has suggested that they want to put in place a verification program to make sure that Iran holds to its commitments, which is really basically along the same lines as the scrapped JCPOA.

On the other hand, there are other hardliners like national security adviser Stephen Waltz, who want and also Marco Rubio, the U.S. Secretary of State, who want a complete elimination of Iran's nuclear program, civilian and otherwise. The Iranians have simply said that that is a nonstarter. Nonetheless, at least they're talking. And since the atmospherics at last week's talks were positive, the hope is that that positivity will be built upon as a result of today's talks.

However, President Trump has basically -- we understand he sent a letter, according to sources familiar with the letters content, to the Iranian leader, Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, saying that he's giving Iran two months to reach some sort of agreement on its nuclear program or else the United States might result -- resort to military action. The Israelis, of course, have been pushing the United States for decades to do that. But at this point, it doesn't appear that there is appetite within the Trump administration for yet another U.S.-led Middle East war.

[05:40:01]

Kim?

BRUNHUBER: All right. Well, Ben, we'll see what comes of this. Ben Wedeman in Rome, thanks so much.

U.S. will scale down its military presence in Syria by more than half in the coming months. That's according to the Pentagon, which confirmed CNN's earlier reporting that less than 1,000 U.S. troops will be left there after the move. Officials say U.S. forces have significantly degraded ISIS in Syria but they'll continue to help allies fight the militant group. President Donald Trump moved to withdraw all U.S. troops from Syria during his first term. And they were later redeployed later after pushback from the Pentagon.

Houthi rebels are vowing to keep attacking Israel and the U.S. after deadly U.S. strikes in Yemen. The U.S. airstrikes hit an oil port on Thursday, reportedly killing at least 74 people and injuring another 171. The U.S. says, it was trying to disrupt Houthi revenue streams as part of an expanded American military campaign. The Houthis say they fired a ballistic missile at a military site near Israel's international airport. Israel confirms, it did intercept a missile launch from Yemen. Meanwhile, he was -- officials say Houthis shot down a U.S. drone on Friday, the fifth in a month.

Trump administration officials are trying to redefine what it means to harm a plant or animal in America. What could that mean for the planet when we come back. Plus, the Trump administration is appealing a judges' ruling that pauses layoffs for hundreds of consumer agency employees. On that story and more when we come back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRUNHUBER: Welcome back to CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Kim Brunhuber in Atlanta. Let's check some of today's top stories.

The White House appears to be pressuring Ukraine to make a major concession in ceasefire negotiations with Russia.

[05:30:04]

The source says president Trump is ready to recognize Russia's control over Crimea, despite Ukraine's position that doing so is a nonstarter. Iran's foreign minister has arrived in Rome ahead of indirect talks with the U.S. Over Iran's nuclear program. This marks the second round of talks between the two countries amid questions about Tehran's nuclear enrichment plans. In a late night decision, the U.S. Supreme Court temporarily halted deportation flights for a group of Venezuelan migrants held in Texas. The courts pause on the use of the alien enemies act is the latest setback for the Trump administration's immigration crackdown. Donald Trump's pick for acting commissioner of the Internal Revenue

Service is out just days after he was appointed. Sources tell CNN that Gary Shapley will no longer serve in the role, despite having the backing of billionaire Elon Musk and congressional Republicans. Sources say Deputy Treasury Secretary Michael Faulkender will take the position. He'll be the fifth person to lead the IRS just this year. Trump's pick for fulltime commissioner, Former Missouri representative Billy Long is awaiting confirmation by the Republican led Senate.

The Trump administration is appealing a judge's order, pausing the termination of hundreds of employees at the consumer financial protection bureau. The order temporarily blocks the firing of some 1,500 agency employees, while the judge determines whether the layoffs violate a court order. CNN's Katelyn Polantz has more.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME NAD JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: 90 percent of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau staff got layoff notices on Thursday. And by Friday morning, a judge had put that entirely on hold and said nobody would be losing their jobs on Friday. Nobody would lose access to their work computers. That's because this has been tied up in court for some time as the Trump administration continues to want to essentially end the consumer financial protection bureau as an agency. It's long been one of the places that Republicans have trained much of their dislike.

And in the court system, as the Trump administration has tried to cut back this agency, courts have looked at it and said, you can't cut it back so far that they can no longer do the work that they need to do at that agency. But the cuts were so deep. On Thursday of this week from the Trump administration that there is now a question of whether the Trump administration is violating the court orders from the court filings on Friday and there is going to be more fact finding here and more court proceedings on this. We know that the lawyers who are looking at this say that the consumer response unit, that is a core thing that the CFPB does, taking in complaints from consumers about predatory lending practices and banks that may be treating them unfairly. That unit was reduced from 135 staff members to eight employees in these layoff notices on Thursday. Also fired at the agency, the people who managed the database of the millions of complaints that come in every year at the CFPB, also the general law and ethics staff, the natural disaster staff and all of the people who are working on disability and accessibility programs within that agency.

The judge, Amy Berman Jackson, in federal court in Washington, is going to have another hearing in about 10 days. She will be looking at more evidence. And the administration, though, is going to be arguing that their leadership wants to take this on. They know what they are doing. According to a sworn declaration by an anonymous staff member, the DOGE was involved here and a manager at DOGE who was managing this reduction in force. He kept the team up for 36 hours working on this before the notices were sent out and was screaming at people that he did not believe were working fast enough.

Back to you. BRUNHUBER: So from endangered jobs to endangered species, Trump

administration officials are trying to redefine what it means to harm a plant or animal in America. Now, they are specifically looking to remove habitat destruction as an activity that's considered threatening under the Endangered Species Act. It's a blow to environmentalists but would make it easier to build in the U.S.

I'm joined live now by Martha Williams, former director of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, in the Biden administration. Thank you so much for being up early here with us. Really appreciate it. So just first to set the stage here, tell us how important the Endangered Species Act is. What role does it play?

MARTHA WILLIAMS, FORMER DIRECTOR, U.S. FISH AND WILDLIFE SERVICE: Good morning Kim. It plays an incredible -- incredibly important role I think even in the psyche of the United States. The Endangered Species Act was passed almost unanimously as a result of losing bald eagles and so many other species.

[05:35:09]

So it's kept these iconic species and then all the little (inaudible). Few people really know or understand around. I think that we've often thought the endangered species makes us stronger as a nation.

BRUNHUBER: Yeah. All right. So the Trump administration, they're planning to basically redefine, you know, one little word, harm. Why does that matter?

WILLIAMS: Turns out it's an enormous word, right, when you're talking about species. What they're essentially saying is that by impacting habitat, you're not impacting the species anymore. So it says you -- the only thing that the Endangered Species Act would prevent is just directly going out and killing a species versus for over 20 years. And as the act has said, it puts in place this whole system of protecting the ecosystems for which the endangered or threatened species depend.

It sets up the system of federal agencies, making sure when they take actions that they don't further harm the species. It sets up the system where private landowners enter into agreements that make sure their actions don't take or kill species. This rescission of the rule completely upends that.

BRUNHUBER: So basically --

WILLIAMS: But (inaudible), the very --

BRUNHUBER: Yeah. Basically they're saying, you know, you wouldn't be able to go out and shoot a bald eagle but you could you could chop down its tree with its nest inside, right?

WILLIAMS: That's right.

BRUNHUBER: Yeah. So --

WILLIAMS: That's right. And I mean, doesn't that -- it's such a fringe theory, Kim. You know, it just doesn't make sense to me. We all, I think, understand that species survival depends on where they live. And to say, oh, gosh, their habitat doesn't matter anymore is a really big change.

BRUNHUBER: Yeah. So what species concern you most here? What's at stake?

WILLIAMS: Gosh, that's such a good question. I mean, every species -- because every species depends on their habitat, but they're -- I think of plants especially that are these unsung heroes are so important for medicinal purposes for future potential cures to diseases. And so if you think of plants and where they live, modifying that habitat is really impactful.

But I also think of like of birds and really all species like Kirtland's warbler or vireos, ones that we've made huge strides in bringing back from the brink because we've had these efforts that are collaborative, where we've worked with other federal agencies or private landowners to help protect -- they're over, gosh, 46 million acres that are protected under these types of plans that rescinding this rule puts those 46 million acres of conservation in jeopardy.

BRUNHUBER: Yeah. If I could channel what I imagine the Trump administration would say, they'd say, you know, you represent the views of the Biden administration. The American people voted against that. And Donald Trump is doing what he said he would do, cut red tape for businesses, help supply the country with cheap energy. And if a few animals get killed along the way, so be it. So as an answer, you know, your background is in the law. I mean, can this be challenged successfully do you think in some way?

WILLIAMS: (Inaudible). Of course this can be challenged but I think I would also respond, Kim, that this is a fringe theory. I do not believe the American public would want to harm endangered species or conservation in this way.

Look, our work is so bipartisan. It has been in the past. This takes all of that good, strong work out of that realm. And I just don't think the American public would have gone for this.

BRUNHUBER: All right. We'll see what the what the response is certainly from the states and from other environmental stakeholders as this winds its way through the system.

Martha Williams, thank you so much for your perspective on this. Really appreciate it.

[05:40:01]

WILLIAMS: Thanks for having me, Kim. Appreciate it.

BRUNHUBER: Well, the White House has launched a new website promoting controversial view on the origins of COVID-19. We'll explain that in just ahead. Also, an American brain drain how Europe is taking advantage of funding cuts and culture wars to lure scientific talent away from the United States. We'll be right back (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRUNHUBER: The White House launched a new web page promoting the controversial COVID-19 lab leak theory. And have a look. You can see it here, the page details, the theory that the coronavirus was a manmade and leaked from an infectious disease lab in Wuhan, China. Global health organizations and U.S. Federal agencies have investigated the origin of the COVID-19 virus. And nearly all have agreed the virus wasn't genetically engineered. The website covid.gov now redirects users to this page. covid.gov previously provided information about COVID-19 vaccines, testing and treatment.

Massive cuts in scientific research funded by the Trump administration are now leading to a brain drain here in the U.S. And Europe is ready to take full advantage of it. The White House is cutting billions of dollars in what it calls an effort to curb the federal deficit and bring the U.S. debt under control. And, of course, universities are often targeted for reasons ranging from DI policies to allegations of failing to curb antisemitism. Whatever the reason, a letter reviewed by Reuters signed last month by 13 European countries, urged the E.U. commission to move fast to attract academic talent from the U.S.

Now, some schools aren't waiting. One section of the Aix-Marseille University website declares it's ready to welcome American scientists. It touts, quote, a safe and stimulating environment for scientists wishing to pursue their research in complete freedom.

All right. For more on this, I'm joined by Sudip Parikh. He's the CEO of the American Association for the Advancement of Science and Executive Publisher of the Science Family of Journals.

[05:45:07]

Thank you so much for being here with us. So the journal Nature released a survey this week, which suggested some 1,200 scientists said they were considering leaving the U.S. because of president Trump. Now, that was actually the vast majority of the people who filled out the survey. Obviously, that's far from a scientific study. But it does, I guess, reflect the feelings among scientists these days. Does it?

SUDIP PARIKH, CEO, AMERICAN ASSOCIATION FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF SCIENCE: Well, good morning, Kim. Yes. You know, this is not a scientific survey, so we should be really clear about that. It's a basically an online poll.

But the key thing to note there is that there is a sentiment, there is a worry. There is a concern among scientists in the United States about the state of science in the country. And that is worrying to those of us who are leaders in the scientific enterprise here. So we have heard this before, this brain drain idea at various times, all the American liberals who were Fed up of Republican presidents, whether it was President Bush or Trump who would leave the country in droves. And as far as I'm aware, that hasn't really happened to any large scale extent, basically since the Vietnam War. So do you really think many will actually leave or is it not about numbers exactly? PARIKH: This isn't about conservative or liberal. This is about being

able to do scientific research. And if you feel that the conditions for scientific research aren't what they need to be, scientists want to do science and they want to do it for the public good. They want to do science that will heal the sick, that will protect the planet, and that will raise living standards.

And if you want to do that, wherever you can do it. And science has been a global enterprise for decades. And we've been fortunate in the United States to be the magnet for that. We've drawn people here. Now, if that enterprise is no longer the best place to do research, then folks will look elsewhere. Do I think it's a large set of people? I don't. I actually think it's a very small set of people. But I think it matters. I think it matters in terms of the angst in the community and the paralysis that sometimes is being seen throughout science right now.

BRUNHUBER: Right. So it's not just that people might leave the U.S. but that scientists might not come here. And then we're sort of hearing of efforts from other countries to actively recruit. But the opportunities you know, in other countries, they're not the same as they are here in the U.S. obviously.

So do you get a sense that these other countries can actually pry away our best and our brightest?

PARIKH: Kim, I'm an optimist. And I think that the American scientific enterprise is incredibly resilient. Two years from now, we're going to have an American scientific enterprise. And it is still going to be among the best in the world. It is the work of many, still as part of this story that's being written to ensure that that's the case.

And so, yes, the current moment has uncertainty. There are real challenges. And there's real damage that's being done. Some of it collateral damage through the sort of indiscriminate cutting. Over the course of the next year, the story is going to be written by Congress. It's going to be written by the American scientific enterprise. It's going to be written by the president. And I hope that in coming together, we can ensure scientists that this is a wonderful place to do science. I can't guarantee that. But I know that a lot of people are working toward it. And I know there will be a large scientific enterprise here to do great research.

BRUNHUBER: You talk about the damage done. I mean, what would be lost in terms of research and innovation? Is there any way to quantify that?

PARIKH: It's very hard to quantify. You know, a lot of this is feelings right now. And that's a -- but that is a concern. Sentiment matters. Sentiment and perception matter. And so as we go through the next six months to a year and as this starts to equilibrate again, all this uncertainty starts to equilibrate again. Hopefully, we'll get to a point where scientists see what the future looks like. And I'm really hoping and asking officials within the administration to really present their vision of what the American scientific enterprise ought to look like. And we're just now getting some of those Senate confirmed leaders into

place. And I'm encouraging them to really lay out their visions for American science so that folks can see that there is a future.

BRUNHUBER: Well, you're an optimist. Let's hope your hopes certainly bear fruit because as you say, the consequences could be pretty dire for the nation if so many top minds leave.

PARIKH: The consequences are existential, Kim. This matters.

BRUNHUBER: All right. We'll have to leave it there. But really appreciate getting your insights on this. Sudip Parikh, CEO of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, really appreciate you joining us this morning.

PARIKH: Thank you for having me.

BRUNHUBER: Mexico City marked Good Friday with a passion play.

[05:50:02]

Coming up, a closer look at this 180-year-old tradition. Stay with us.

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BRUNHUBER: As Vatican celebrated Good Friday U.S. Vice president J.D. Vance and his family were in the crowd at Saint Peters basilica. despite Pope Francis criticizing the Trump administration's mass deportation efforts, the Vice President is expected to meet with Vatican officials later today. Pope Francis wasn't at Friday's service and isn't expected to be at the meeting with Vance. But on Thursday, the pope visited a prison in Rome. You can see him in this video from the event as the pope recovers from double pneumonia. Cardinals are leading many Vatican events, including Sunday's Easter service. There's no word if the pope will be there.

Crowds gathered in Mexico City to mark Good Friday, as locals there reenacted the events surrounding the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. CNN's Valeria Leon has more on the history and devotion behind one neighborhoods annual display.

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VALERIA LEON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The streets and public plazas of the Iztapalapa neighborhood in Mexico City transformed to host the passion play. This is one of the most elaborate in the region and also recognized by UNESCO as the intangible and cultural heritage.

[05:55:05]

And here, the -- this event gathers more than 2 million visitors from all over Mexico and all over the world. And since a very young age here, children are taught to bear these large wooden crosses. But mostly men are the ones who accompany the actor portraying Jesus. They have to carry these crosses on their back. And they have to walk five miles until they reach the Cerro de la Estrella or the Star Hill, where the crucifixion of Jesus takes place.

And this is the 182nd time that inhabitants of Iztapalapa have taken part of this Holy Week procession. And every year, they express their compassion. They also show their faith and devotion during this cultural and religious event.

Valeria Leon, CNN, Iztapalapa, Mexico City.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BRUNHUBER: Spring flowers are in bloom all around the Northern Hemisphere. And flower gardens are drawing people in to admire their beauty. We'll have a look at this in southern England. Bright tulip fields attract visitors with more than 1.5 million flowers and more than 100 varieties.

And in the flower bulb region of the Netherlands, tourists flock to see one of the country's biggest tourist attractions mostly famed for its tulips. And in a buttercup flower field in southern Israel, people pick flowers and walk through the colorful field during the Passover holiday.

Well, that wraps this hour of CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Kim Brunhuber for viewers in North America. CNN This Morning is next. For the rest of the world is African Voices Changemakers.