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CNN International: Honoring The Life And Legacy Of Pope Francis; Hegseth Slams Media Amid New Signal Chat Controversy; U.S. Stocks Plunge As Trump Renews Attacks On Fed Chair. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired April 21, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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MAX FOSTER, CNN HOST: Hello. Welcome to our viewers all around the world. I'm Max Foster. This is CNN NEWSROOM.

The pope of the poor, a voice for peace and human dignity. A pilgrim of hope who never disappointed -- just some of the tributes pouring in today for Pope Francis, who died the morning after Easter at the age of 88.

Mourners are gathered in Vatican City to pay their respects. Weve just learned the pope passed away from a stroke and heart failure after a recent illness with double pneumonia.

Bells tolled at St. Peter's Square as nine days of mourning begin. The pope's body could lie in state at St. Peter's Basilica as soon as Wednesday. The Vatican says he confirmed in his final testament that he wished to be buried in a simple tomb in the ground at a basilica in Rome.

Pope Francis continued his ministry right until the very end, delighting crowds on Easter Sunday here, waving to the faithful from the popemobile.

The archbishop of New York says remarkable humility was amongst the pope's extraordinary gifts.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARDINAL TIMOTHY DOLAN, ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK: I was there in 2013 at the conclave, and we elected him. And when we all left after he had blessed the crowd and we went over the Domus Sanctae Marthae for lunch, and obviously he did the opening prayer. But before he's looking out at all of us and he says, God forgive you for what you did. Or so there was a humility and a sense of humor there from the beginning. Those were gifts that he had.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Let's go to Ben Wedeman. He's in St. Peter's Square.

You know, that humility the way he wants a very simple tomb in the ground, very much speaks to the way he carried out his whole papacy. BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. I mean,

what he put in his last testament really tells you so much about him. He said that the tomb must be in the earth. Simple, without particular decoration, and with only the in the inscription, Franciscus.

Now compare that with some of the ostentation that has become standard for today. The conspicuous consumption that so many people are proud of. This was a pope who insisted on living the simple life. He did not live in the apostolic apartments overlooking St. Peter's Square, but rather chose to live in Casa Santa Marta on the second floor in a two room. They called it a suite. What is simply two rooms.

And he didn't eat by himself. He ate in the cafeteria with the gardeners, the cleaners, the basic -- the workers who made the Vatican function. He drove around in a Fiat Cinquecento. He didn't wear the normal sort of golden robes and whatnot of previous popes. This was a man who wanted to set an example to people focusing on the -- the value of human, of basic, decent human nature, rather than the trappings of power.

And he will be missed by many here. Certainly here in Italy, many people grew to love Pope Francis as a symbol of perhaps the kind of leader they would like a man, who did not insult people, who spoke softly but had a very important, clear message that one must be compassionate and kind and understanding, particularly of those who are the underprivileged, the poor, the forgotten -- Max.

FOSTER: Okay, Ben in Vatican City, thank you so much.

Leaders from around the world are expressing their condolences over the loss of the pope.

French President Emmanuel Macron says Francis brought hope and joy to the poorest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): During his whole pontificate, he was by the side of the most vulnerable, the most fragile. With much humility, and in this time of war and brutality, a very particular sense of the other and the most fragile. And in that he was faithful to a tradition that was dear to him. Throughout his life, he fought for more justice. He fought for a certain idea of humanity. That's to say, a fraternal idea.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Russian President Vladimir Putin says the pope had the opportunity to communicate with this outstanding person on many occasions.

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And I will therefore cherish the brightest memory of him.

Italy's president is also amongst the world leaders who are grieving. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SERGIO MATTARELLA, ITALIAN PRESIDEN (through translator): Alongside the grief for the death of Pope Francis, I feel, as I said this morning, a sense of emptiness, a sense of the deprivation of a point of reference to which I looked. He conquered the world from the very first moment already with his choice of name, a Jesuit, a child of the spirituality of Saint Ignatius. He referred to Saint Francis, emphasizing the richness of the charisms that complement each other in the church.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: CNN international diplomatic editor Nic Robertson with us.

This theme, going through everything Ben was saying, the simplicity also coming through all of the comments from world leaders. And, you know, he -- he did speak to conflict in the world. He was very outspoken about it. But that feels just part of his wider mission to represent the poor, the underprivileged.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITO: Who he had grown up amongst. This was the first pope to come from Latin America, from Argentina. He didn't -- he wasn't educated in the sort of papal schools around Rome, in the Vatican. He was educated in Argentina.

He was the son of Italian migrants. He spoke about that very humbly when he was in the United States, about how he felt the United States was -- this was when he was visiting there with Barack -- so Barack Obama, that the United States was built by immigrants, like his parents.

So, he very much identified with that hard working person at the bottom of the economic ladder, if you will. And he championed them, whether it was directly because of their impoverished nature, in their -- in their jobs, in their countries, or because they were losing out because of the global climate change, which again, was it was a core to him about the importance and the sanctity of the planet.

Or it was wars. I'm just looking at a list of countries he visited here going back to 2014. He visits Jordan, Israel and Palestinian areas, immediately drawn to areas of conflict. But here, we have a just two years ago, 2023, he goes to the DRC, Democratic Republic of Congo, and South Sudan, a place of conflict. And I was just looking at what somebody from the Democratic Republic of Congo had to say today.

They said, you know, this was a guy even in failing health, made the effort to come and see us. And that's what really touched us. But we've heard other moving words today. Cardinal Dolan in Chicago, speaking to CNN a little earlier today, spoke about being greatly saddened. But this pope, in a way, with his last acts and what he had done in the last few days, he says, could not have choreographed his last days better. This is how he put it.

(BEGIN VIDOE CLIP) DOLAN: We don't call it Holy Father for nothing. He's the father of our family, and there's a death in the family, and were saddened. We can never choreograph our own birth, our death. Can we? Thats always in god's hands. But if you could choreograph it, you couldn't choreograph it any better than what happened the last time we saw him, Easter Sunday, the last words of blessed Easter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTSON: And it's this way that he touched everyone. You know, when you hear the leaders speaking like Emmanuel Macron or Sergio Mattarella, the Italian president there, or many of the others we've heard from the Israeli president today. Isaac Herzog talking about the importance of the pope's outreach, interfaith outreach. We've heard from the prime minister of Pakistan. Pakistan today, again, talking about the importance of that outreach.

You almost get the sense that some of these politicians wish they could have been as humble in their roles and as communicatively effective with their not congregations, their voters.

FOSTER: It's interesting to you had the similar sort of tributes from all political spheres. And what I'm getting a sense of today is a lot of liberals are -- are concerned because he was a legitimate global voice on issues they cared about. Youve mentioned climate change and immigration, and they've lost that voice. Someone who could speak to right wing leaders as well as left wing leaders.

ROBERTSON: And there's a concern that that this pope was picked, who was a surprise because he was from the Global South and he could speak to the poor. And he also wanted to sort of modernize the church and kind of wash some of the dirty laundry that was dragging it down, you know, the sexual abuse cases, many other areas. Release it from some of the strictures of conformity of conservatism, and in a sense is that waiting in the wings to come back.

And you think here in the U.K., under his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI, there were the ordinariate, the Anglicans in the English Church who decided that their faith was not quite as manifesting in the with the conservative values they wanted, and came across to the Catholic Church.

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I know there are some of those ordinariate today in ministry who would feel they would rather get some of those conservative values back. So, this when the cardinals sit --

FOSTER: Yes.

ROBERTSON: -- this will be the where the weight of the --

FOSTER: Conclave politics. It is politics, isn't it, after all.

Nic, thank you so much.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny joins us from Washington with reactions from the White House as well.

It's remarkable, this thread that goes through all these world leader comments.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It certainly is, Max. I mean, from one president to another, there has been one pope, at least for the last three presidents. And of course, the pope had very different relationships with Presidents Obama, Biden and Donald Trump.

But the U.S. president did lower flags to half-staff here at the White House today.

He spoke earlier this morning about what the pope meant.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I just signed an executive order putting the flags of our country, all of them, all federal flags and state flags at half mast in honor of Pope Francis. So, he was a good man. He worked hard. He -- he loved the world. And it's an honor to do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: So, standing next to the Easter bunny there, this was on the day of the annual Easter egg roll here at the White House, but so poignant that Pope Francis left a day after Easter Sunday. On Easter Monday, that's when he took his leave.

But extraordinarily so Vice President J.D. Vance was one of the last people to see the pope alive at J.D. Vance was in Rome for a part of a two-country trip. He's going on to India right now, but he had a small and brief audience with the pontiff just a yesterday. You can see the images right there.

And J.D. Vance reflecting on that, moment, writing this, he said, I just learned of the passing of Pope Francis. My heart goes out to the millions of Christians all over the world who loved him. I was happy to see him yesterday, though he was obviously very ill. But I'll always remember him for the below homily he gave in the very early days of COVID. It was quite beautiful. May God rest his soul.

So of course, what is not said in the niceties back and forth are the very deep disagreements and differences this pontiff had with this administration, particularly on immigration, from the very beginning of the Trump administration some eight years ago, the pope spoke out quite vociferously about the idea of building a wall. He said, Christians build bridges, not walls. And it went on from there.

But look, there is no doubt that immigration was -- it's been a hallmark for the Trump administration. It was a moment of contention for them, there's no doubt about it. But when President Trump was meeting with the pope in 2017, he walked away feeling starstruck. He said at the time. And of course, President Biden had his own relationship with the pontiff, President Biden, the second U.S. president to be a practicing Catholic, was very close to him.

And President Obama, of course, was as well. He invited the Pope Francis here just about a year and a half into his papacy, and he delivered a session, a speech to a joint session of Congress. It was an extraordinary moment. I remember it very well, talking again about the need to build bridges, not walls. But for now at least, the tributes and triumphs are going out to the pope from the White House. And there's no word if the president will attend the funeral. He said he will make that announcement in the coming days.

FOSTER: Okay. We should get the date sometime tomorrow, I think. Jeff, thank you very much indeed.

I want to get you some perspective now from Father Stephen Wang, a rector of the Venerable English College in Rome and the host of the YouTube channel Pause for Faith.

We're also joined by Mary Healy, professor of Scripture at the Sacred Heart Major Seminary in Detroit.

Thank you both very much indeed.

Father Stephen, we really are getting this picture of the pope. I think the word simplicity is one that I keep hearing. Do you think that that's true to him?

FATHER STEPHEN WANG, RECTOR, VENERABLE ENGLISH COLLEGE: I think it's very true. I think its the key to Pope Francis, really, Max. And we must never forget that the very first decision that he made was to take the name Francis. And he's explained this himself. He wanted to model his life and his papacy on Saint Francis of Assisi because of his simplicity, his love for the poor, his openness to all, and his love for creation.

So there's a hallmark, a key there, that Pope Francis gave us. I think even in the choice of his name originally. And we've seen that lived out in so many ways, and we've heard some beautiful examples this evening already.

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FOSTER: And he's simply going to have that name on his tomb, as we understand it, and nothing else, which says so much, doesn't it?

Professor Healy, you're never going to please everyone in this position, are you? There are two distinct ends of the church. If I can say that you know, he made -- he made a major progression, though, on liberal issues, didn't he? Even though there are many liberals that felt he could have gone a lot further.

What do you think he did differently? How did he transform the church, in your view?

MARY HEALY, PROFESSOR OF SCRIPTURE, SACRED HEART MAJOR SEMINARY: Well, I think on the best interpretation, he continued the legacy of Vatican Council Two from the 1960s, which was to update the church not in order to conform her more to the world, because who wants a church that looks just like the world? It would end up not being God's church, but rather to make the church better fitted, to proclaim Christ to this generation.

And Pope Francis, I think, really recognized and felt that some of the ceremonial garb and the pomp of the church and the institution, the institutional weight of the church, had compromised her ability to proclaim this simplicity and the beauty of the gospel, especially to those who most need to hear it, sinners, the outcast, the poor, the marginalized, the downtrodden in every way. And I think he tried to model it in his personal life, and he did it in a very striking way. Living in the Casa Santa Marta in the Vatican, essentially the Vatican hotel rather than the papal apartments and many other gestures that bespeak that simplicity of the gospel that he was calling the whole church to.

FOSTER: Yeah, were hearing from our correspondent in Argentina, he used to wear the same shoes in the Vatican that he did. Carrying out ministry in Argentina, didn't he?

Father Stephen, that was controversial, though, wasn't it? The simplicity side, if I can call it that, because there's a lot of people that love the pomp and pageantry of the church, and its were going to see a lot of it as well in coming days, aren't we? Because the funeral, the conclave, I mean, its all this mystique and magic that really does draw many people to the church.

WANG: Yeah, I think that's true. And as a Catholic, I think we expect there to be a balance. And I think Pope Franciss point was we must never lose the heart. He's the pope. And he lived in the Vatican City, and he was constantly, loving others and living the beauty of Catholic prayer and Catholic worship. And he was very happy to meet people.

So, he wasn't running away from, if you like, the reality of the papacy. But he was saying, we must never lose the heart of this and that. Thats the characteristic of Pope Francis that I think struck most people, that he was always wanting to reach out to others and to make sure that the church didn't become a closed institution.

So, this -- this phrase of his to go beyond the church, to go to the peripheries, to knock down the walls rather than building them to, to have a heart for others. And I think its beautiful that his very final encyclical letter as a pope was called Dilexit Nous, which is all about the heart of Jesus, the love of God for us and the love that we should have for one another. So, he was never denying the reality of the beauty of the Catholic Church or the traditions, but just we must never lose the heart of what that means.

FOSTER: Professor, you know, it's very hard to change the church, isn't it? We've seen that it's a very slow process over centuries, really. And if we look ahead to the conclave, I think it is still a shock to many people who aren't involved in Catholicism that, you know, only men will decide who the next pope will be. No women will have a say in it.

Do you think he did something towards moving towards greater equity within the church?

HEALY: Yes, he did. I remember early on he made a comment about the role of women that was perhaps seen as condescending and not quite in touch when he said, women are the strawberries on the cake. But after that, I think he became more attuned to the voices of women and the recognition of the unique gifts that women bring to the church, and the importance of having women in key roles. So, he has appointed women to several prominent positions in the Vatican.

And he also has drawn attention to the fact that the church herself is feminine. And if we overemphasize the institutional dimension, we lose something essential. And I think he recognized that the church had become hyper institutionalized.

So, I'm thankful for that. And I think the next pope will likely build on that legacy.

FOSTER: And, Father Stephen, one of his most famous soundbites, of course, was on the plane where he talked about not judging, gay people.

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I've heard a lot today, said about how he never talked about gays. He talked about gay people. He always thought of the individual and the personal relationship someone would have with the church.

Do you think he did make some progression on that issue as well? I know it caused a lot of upset in the church to that comment.

WANG: I think the main thing for Pope Francis, which characterized that particular comment and the 12 years of his papacy, was always trying to see the person before him. It was about relationships, and it was about never giving up on people and never making people feel that they are excluded because they're in difficult situations, whatever they are, difficult economic situations, difficult situations as a migrant, difficult moral situations.

Something Pope Francis said again and again was he's not trying to change doctrine. He's the pope. The church is the church, and it has a body of faith which generations try to live.

But he was trying to make sure that everyone knew they were loved, whatever the difficulties they were in. And that was -- that's radical, if you like. Thats a challenge because we can get closed to others. We can get caught up in our in our little, our little world, in our protective environments.

And Pope Francis was always saying, we need to go outside and never forget the dignity of the person who's standing before us, who is our brother and our sister.

FOSTER: It's a really powerful legacy we're hearing about today. Father Stephen Wang, and Professor Mary Healy, thank you both for joining us with your fascinating insights.

WANG: Thank you.

FOSTER: Still to come, the U.S. defense secretary under pressure tonight after sources say he used a second Signal chat to discuss military operations with his family.

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FOSTER: U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth is facing new questions about his future after a new controversy involving military plans being shared on Signal.

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Hegseth shared detailed plans about a military operation in Yemen on his personal phone. In a group chat that included his wife, his brother and his personal lawyer. That's according to three people familiar with chats.

The news comes after Hegseth fired several of his top officials last week at the White House Easter egg roll. He said he was the victim of a media stitch up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: This is what the media does. They take anonymous sources from disgruntled former employees, and then they try to slash and burn people and ruin their reputations. Not going to work with me because we're changing the Defense Department, putting the Pentagon back in the hands of warfighters and anonymous smears from disgruntled former employees on old news. Doesn't matter.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

FOSTER: Our chief national security correspondent Alex Marquardt is in Washington.

Whatever he says about it, its more negative headlines the president really doesn't need right now.

ALEXANDER MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, it really is. And it further raises questions about Hegseth's judgment.

This second Signal chat could be argued to be worse than the first one, in that in the first case, he didn't create the group. He then did put some extremely sensitive information in there, arguably classified. Many people do indeed believe that was classified, and the readers of that first signal group were all very senior level national security officials. That is not the case this time.

This was a group that was created by a Hegseth himself. It dates back several months around his confirmation hearing. It includes people who are very close to him, like his wife, who does not work at the Defense Department, like his personal lawyer, Tim Parlatore, who does now work at DOD, as well as his brother. And in this second chat, he included some of the very same, we

believe, sensitive information about the U.S. plans to attack Yemen, attack the Houthis on March 15th. So this is really quite. And it comes at a time of real turmoil, Max, at the Defense Department, there have been a series of leaks on a broad range of subjects that we know has really frustrated Pete Hegseth.

In the past week, we have seen three senior level top advisers and officials at the Pentagon get fired. Hegseth's own chief of staff has been removed, possibly will be reassigned within the pentagon. And then his former press secretary, who stepped down last week, has issued a series of quotes about Hegseth's Defense Department. He called it a full-blown meltdown.

And this is part of a statement that he sent over to CNN. He said it's been a month of total chaos at the Pentagon. This is John Ullyot from leaks of sensitive operational plans to mass firings. The dysfunction is now a major distraction for the president, who deserves better from his senior leadership.

Now, Ullyot had been a longtime supporter of Pete Hegseth. He had supported his confirmation at a time when it wasn't clear that Hegseth was actually going to make it through.

Now, Hegseth and the president were both at the White House today for the annual Easter egg roll, and we heard a supportive President Trump, when asked by our colleague Betsy Klein about this alleged dysfunction at the Pentagon.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He's doing a great job. Its just fake news. They just bring up stories. I guess it sounds like disgruntled employees. You know, he was put there to get rid of a lot of bad people, and that's what he's doing. So you don't always have friends when you do that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUARDT: Max, those disgruntled employees that Trump and Hegseth both seem to be referencing are those three individuals who, again, were very close to Hegseth. So, for now, it does appear that Hegseth does have the president's support. The White House may not want to give what would be perceived a win, perhaps to the press, may not want to go through another tumultuous confirmation hearing. But if these incidents keep stacking up, we could possibly see a change in tune from the president, Max.

FOSTER: Okay, Alex, we'll be watching it. Thank you so much, indeed.

China is warning its trading partners about caving in to U.S. pressure. The Trump administration is asking other countries to restrict their trade with China. In exchange, the White House will grant exemptions from U.S. tariffs. Beijing says it will respond with countermeasures. The warning comes

after Chinese President Xi has conducted several recent trips to trade partners.

U.S. stocks, meanwhile, plunging as we enter the final hour of trading. On Wall Street. U.S. President Donald Trump has resumed his attacks on Fed Chair Jerome Powell, calling him a major loser and saying the U.S. economy could slow down unless the Federal Reserve cuts interest rates. Now, that sent U.S. stocks down around 3 percent.

Vanessa Yurkevich joins us.

I mean, there are two stories playing into this, right, Vanessa?

VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, exactly. And you laid them out at the top of the show right there.

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The first one is around the trade war. It is investors and traders really not seeing any deals coming to fruition. For example, we know that Japan and the United States have been negotiating, but they haven't seen any tangible deals. And this is a close ally and a key trading partner. Many investors would have assumed that this would be wrapped up by now, but it really signals that this could be a drawn- out process. And if we can't come to deals quickly with Japan, what does that mean for the dozens of other countries that the U.S. is set to negotiate with?

And as you said, with China warning their trading partners not to get behind the U.S. and isolate China as a trading partner, essentially, in some ways, escalating the threats around this trade war. And then at the same time this morning, as you mentioned, President Trump on Truth Social calling on the chairman of the Federal Reserve to essentially lower interest rates and calling him a loser and Mr. Way Too Late. That's a nod to the fact that he hasn't lowered interest rates just yet.

But this is also rattling Wall Street dramatically. And also traders and analysts saying that this really puts into question the independence of the Federal Reserve Bank. This is an institution that was set up to be independent from the federal government, so that a president or other key elected officials could not intervene in monetary policy.

And analysts I spoke to said that they see both of these story lines around trade and around the president, essentially attacking the Fed of the -- of the Federal Reserve, the chair of the Federal Reserve. They see these stories lines playing out for a while now. And that is why you're seeing this major sell off on Wall Street. Investors essentially dug in that they're going to have to ride this out for a while.

Now, can the president remove the chair of the Federal Reserve? Well, it is a question that was taken up in 1935. It was a case that ultimately, where the Supreme Court found that the president cannot remove the head of the Federal Reserve. However, they did say if there was cause and those causes are around inefficiency, neglect of duty and malfeasance in office.

So, there's a lot of questions swirling around right now about whether or not the president has this power. He has indicated that he would remove Jerome Powell, the chair of the Federal Reserve, if he wanted to, but ultimately, markets investors really seeing this story playing out for a while, including the trade war that is now looming. And there's potentially more to come as we wait to see what happens with all of these countries that are in line, Max, to negotiate with the United States.

FOSTER: Yeah. Okay. Vanessa, thank you.

We'll have more to come on the path passing of Pope Francis whilst a mourning him, the world also celebrates his life. After the break, we speak with an author who wrote about the pontiff.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

FOSTER: Bells tolling at the Vatican and at Notre Dame in Paris as tributes pour in from all around the world for Pope Francis. The Vatican says the 88-year-old pontiff died of a stroke and heart failure earlier on Monday. The pope is being remembered for his humility and tireless service, especially as an advocate for the poor and for migrants.

Just yesterday, he surprised and delighted crowds delivering the traditional Easter blessing from the balcony of St. Peter's Basilica. The Catholic Church now enters a nine-day period of mourning.

We're joined by the Vatican correspondent for "America Magazine", Gerard O'Connell. He's also the author of "The Election of Pope Francis: An Insider Account of the Conclave that Changed History". He joins us from Rome.

Thank you so much for joining us.

I mean, the conclaves are fascinating, aren't they? We're about to go into that process. But what do you understand of Pope Franciss conclave and how he came out of it? Surprise winner, really?

GERARD O'CONNELL, VATICAN CORRESPONDENT, AMERICA MAGAZINE: Yes, he went in as one who was not in the general view, a candidate. He did not think that he would be elected pope right until the lunchtime, a few hours before they actually voted for him.

He was always a humble man. He never saw himself above anybody. Not the poorest person in the world, not the highest person.

He never saw himself above anybody. And -- but what struck people was his deep spirituality. They saw him as a whole -- what the world would call a very holy man, a man of integrity.

They knew that he was a man who had spent much of his life caring for the poor, visiting the shantytowns. Being a man who was not judgmental of other people. He was criticized, for example, for baptizing the children of unmarried mothers. And he said the child has a right and he stood up to high Vatican officials on this question.

When he became pope, he didn't change. He remained the same humble person. He didn't go to live in the palace. He lived in a three-room, small three-room apartment. He didn't go around in a limousine. He went around in his small car.

We saw that, for example, when he came to Washington, to the United States, and at Andrews Airport. The two beasts, the one of the president and the vice president were there. And in between was the little car of Pope Francis. He wanted that.

And throughout his pontificate, he never changed. He -- it's very interesting. We just got his last testament tonight and he said in. The last sentence of it, he said, as my death near comes near, I offer these sufferings at the end of my life for peace in the world. And for friendship, brotherhood between nations.

That was his last wish. And in fact, yesterday when we saw him in St. Peter's Square in the balcony, the same one where he came out. When he was elected 12 years ago, he -- the last thing he did was give a blessing to the people. And then he went around the square as if saying goodbye to all the people he wanted to be with the people.

FOSTER: Is it fair to say that he didn't want the position, but he took it anyway, out of duty. And I also wanted to ask you about this moment where he came out after he was -- he got the position and he leant forward, didn't he? And he said, pray over me. And I know a lot of real experts have looked at that saying that was an extraordinary moment, something we'd never seen.

O'CONNELL: Well, there are several things about him. First of all, he didn't want to be pope, but he, like other cardinals who go in if God, if the cardinals choose him, he sees this as God's will. And he said, when he when the votes reached the 77, that meant he was elected. He said he experienced a deep peace in his soul that he never lost throughout his pontificate. He never lost that inner peace.

He was a man who had great inner freedom, but he also had great inner peace. And then he -- he reached out to people, as you said. He bent down and asked the people. He said, I'm going to be your bishop. But first of all, you pray and ask God to bless me so that I can be a good bishop.

And this was an extraordinary thing. And thirdly, you know, there's no pope in history, has made friends with the Muslims in the way Pope Francis has.

FOSTER: Hmm, okay.

O'CONNELL: He wrote a he wrote a book, a document with the head of the Al-Azhar, the big Muslim institute in Cairo. And he was the son -- he was the son of migrants.

FOSTER: Yes. O'CONNELL: And he never, ever --

FOSTER: He always spoke about migrants, didn't he? And in that way, even when he went to America as well. We could talk to you all night, Gerard. And we will be speaking to you more over the coming weeks, because there's a long period now, isn't there, reflection.

But thank you very much for your time tonight.

O'CONNELL: Thank you for having me. Thank you.

FOSTER: A moral giant and humble shepherd. After the break, we'll have more reaction from American leaders following the death of Pope Francis.

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FOSTER: Recapping our top story, Pope Francis dying at the age of 88. In America, the U.S. National Cathedral is remembering the pontiff as a, quote, moral giant and humble shepherd who remained unwavering in his support for the poor and forgotten.

The statement also encourages mourners to take courage in Pope Francis final Easter message, which implored the faithful to care for migrants.

Brynn Gingras joins us now from St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York.

It's interesting, isn't it, because many of the things he stood for are huge topics of debate in the U.S. right now, but he was universally respected.

BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN U.S. NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: He absolutely was. I mean, millions of people, of course, are mourning the loss of Pope Francis around the world. And it really is no different here, Max, in front of St. Patrick's Cathedral, we have seen a number of people going in and out of the cathedral, attending the daily masses. That happened many times throughout the day today, in honor now of Pope Francis. Many of these mourners coming out of this cathedral in tears, quite frankly.

One person said that they were stunned even though he was sick for so long. It's still such a shock to people who celebrated his life, who appreciated what he did, for not only Catholics around the world, but also, you know, people of other faith. How he bridged gaps in so many ways.

One person I talked to was visiting here from Ireland. She said she had to go across the street to the gift shop, had to go get some rosary beads that he had blessed when he visited here in 2015. I have to tell you, the altar inside St. Patrick's Cathedral. It is just beautiful. There is a picture of Pope Francis. There is the chalice that he used when he said mass at Madison Square Garden again when he visited in 2015. And that is what people are flocking to -- to again pay their respects

to quite a person, to his holiness.

I want you to hear from one person who's not even catholic, but said he had to go into that church, into that cathedral today. Here's what he said why.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think that it's, you know, he was a really exceptional person. And, you know, he did a lot of things to -- to try and adjust the church to modern times. And I really, really admire that in him. And, you know, the fact that he spoke up for immigrants, the fact that he came from another part of the world, you know, from the southern hemisphere, you know, I thought he was he was an excellent choice. And we're just, you know, waiting to see who comes next. What will happen next?

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GINGRAS: And again, as people are mourning and that will last for quite some time now, Max, as we know there, the conversation is already beginning about who will be next. And it was no different. Again, on the streets here in New York, younger generations hoping that Pope Francis started the conversation.

They hope the next pope will continue the conversation, be more inclusive, bring the catholic church more forward into the next generation to bring up the Catholic Church and get them out of, you know, so many hardships that they've had in the past, you know, decades, really, Max.

FOSTER: Okay, Brynn. Thank you.

From Buenos Aires to Rome, we'll take a look at how Pope Francis' humble roots affected his leadership and how people are paying their respects as well today.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a great disappointment, a great loss. A man who has innovated the church, and a man who has left a great mark. And this -- this absence causes great pain.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a moment of a bit of sadness and at the same time, thankfulness and celebration of life.

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FOSTER: The world joins more than a billion Catholics in mourning the passing of Pope Francis, who died on this Easter Monday. The bells on St. Peter's Square mark the end of a remarkable life.

Pope Francis, known as a pope of many firsts, was loved for his humility and his care for the poor. Former U.S. President Barack Obama remembers Pope Francis as the rare leader who made us want to be better people.

Just a short while ago, the pope's personal residence was locked and sealed following Vatican tradition. Here you can see Cardinal Kevin Farrell, known as the camerlengo. Thats among the tributes pouring in from around the world, including from Argentina, where Pope Francis roots lie. He was the first pontiff elected from Latin America who also tried to create more welcoming Catholic Church, a sentiment really. Many praised the popes support for the LGBTQ community.

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NICOLAS CORDOBA, PRAISES POPE FOR SUPPORT OF LGBTQ COMMUNITY (through translator): It is going to hurt the soul of the people that the pope has died. Honestly, it hurts me like crazy. It hurts me a lot because I agreed more than anything with his words in support of bisexuals and homosexuals, and it literally hurts me.

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FOSTER: Mexico City, one of the many cities where the faithful are paying their respects currently.

Let's go live to CNN's Valeria Leon from Mexico City.

It's amazing to think that you're in just one location, and its being reflected all over the world. This this upswell of emotion really.

VALERIA LEON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's correct, Max, and I want to show you this is the altar with the picture of Pope Francis that that has been set up outside Mexico's cathedral. Here, many Mexicans have left candles and flowers, and they are taking pictures of this new altar that was just set up a few hours ago.

And many Mexicans have gathered here in Mexico's cathedral to celebrate Pope Francis legacy, and also to mourn his loss.

I spoke with one of them who showed up this morning. She's a nun who she traveled from the Yucatan peninsula to Mexico City. And this is what she told me about the legacy of Pope Francis.

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SISTER FATIMA LUGO, VISITING NUN OF THE BASILICA OF GUADALUPE: He has taught us a lot in the church, especially how he has taught us to be an outward looking church, to be a church for everyone. That the church is for everyone. He opened many doors. He was a pope who made a big difference. He reached out to the poor, to those most in need. And that is what he has taught us during this time in the church.

(END VIDEO CLIP) LEON: And this is the Mexico's cathedral, where this morning a mass was held in honor and to honor the legacy of Pope Francis. And Pope Francis came here in 2016 as part of his trip for all over Mexico. He visited four different cities in the country, including, for example, cities in Michoacan, in Chiapas and the border town of Ciudad Juarez, where he addressed a message against violence against migrants and also rejected all type of violence.

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But specifically, he talked about drug related killings that happened in that state in Chihuahua.

I want to show you around this, this, this cathedral where this mass was held just a few minutes ago. And this is the time where they are celebrating the legacy and honoring the Pope Francis -- Max.

FOSTER: Okay. Thank you so much, Valeria. And that, as I say, being reflected around the world, we'll bring you those tributes as they happen.

But thank you for joining us here on CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Max Foster.

Richard has more coverage as well as the very, you know, pretty awful day on the markets as well on "QUEST MEANS BUSINESS", after the break.