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Trump Threatens European Union And Apple With Tariffs; International Harvard Students In "Pure Panic" Over Trump Ban Effort; Interview With Harvard University Professor Ryan Enos; Police Investigating Vandalism At Three Austin Mosques; Billy Joel Cancels Upcoming Tour Due To Neurological Disorder; Trump Ends Alabama Program That Fixed Sewage Problem. Aired 5-6p ET

Aired May 24, 2025 - 17:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[17:00:09]

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN HOST: Welcome to the CNN NEWSROOM, everyone. I'm Omar Jimenez in New York. Jessica Dean has the day off.

On the brink of a global trade war. President Donald Trump threatening the European Union with 50 percent tariffs on imported goods after calling the bloc, quote, "difficult to deal with".

Trump also calling on Apple to start manufacturing iPhones in America or face a 25 percent tariff. All of these announcements are putting businesses around the world and Wall Street on edge.

CNN correspondent Julia Benbrook joins us now. So Julia, what is the latest from President Trump here?

JULIA BENBROOK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Omar, there was no doubt that on Friday morning when President Donald Trump woke up, that tariffs were top of mind. We saw two back-to-back social media posts on Truth Social announcing the threat of new tariffs, both on Apple and on the European Union.

So we'll start with Apple, where Trump said that he had spoken with Tim Cook. In fact, we'll pull up that graphic now. "I've long ago informed Tim Cook of Apple that I expect their iPhones that will be sold in the United States of America will be manufactured and built in the United States", adding that if that does not happen -- of course that's not some quick overnight switch -- but if that does not happen, he says that there will be a 25 percent tariff on those iPhones. And he also said that that would apply to other smartphone manufacturers.

Then you have the threat of the 50 percent tariff on the European Union that he says would go into effect on June 1st. Trump cited a lack of effort on their part when it comes to the current trade negotiations, saying that those talks are really going nowhere.

And then he escalated that conversation while he was signing executive orders in the Oval Office later that day. Sometimes when he enacts these tariffs, it starts negotiations. But he said there's really no deal to be done here, that the deal is that 50 percent tariff on all goods coming from the European Union.

JIMENEZ: And, you know, for those who have been following, or I guess tried to follow the on tariffs, the off again, the pause, the threatened whatever, wherever we are at this point, how is this different from the initial tariffs that Trump proposed on this front?

BENBROOK: This is much higher than the initial reciprocal tariff that he placed on the European Union. It was only in place for a little while at that 20 percent. It then lowered so that negotiations could take place.

But the one thing that has been consistent, Omar, is that we have seen these go on and off and back and forth when it comes to the tariff negotiations.

JIMENEZ: All right. Julia Benbrook, really appreciate the reporting.

For more on President Donald Trump's latest round of tariff threats, I want to bring in CNN's Matt Egan to explain.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATT EGAN, CNN REPORTER: This would be a major escalation in the president's trade wars. And this is news that really caught investors off guard because they had been banking on, and frankly, hoping for de-escalation when it comes to tariffs. This would be moving things in the other direction.

And look there's so much at stake here because this is a list of Americas biggest trading partners. And the E.U. far and away is number one almost $1 trillion worth of imports and exports with the United States last year alone. More than Mexico, more than Canada, even more than China and Japan combined.

And if you're talking about 50 percent tariffs, the risk, of course, is that that would disrupt the flow of trade between the E.U. and the U.S. and potentially increase prices here in the U.S.

What do we get from the E.U.? Well, $600 plus billion worth of goods last year alone. Everything from pharmaceutical products and cars and car parts to aircraft, wine and other alcoholic beverages.

I talked to Mary Lovely. She's a trade expert at the Peterson Institute. And she told me that as far as this tactic from the president, she thinks it's just going to backfire.

She said the E.U. considers itself a major global body, and it does not deserve to be treated like a small plumbing contractor.

And economists over at Barclay's, they say that they just see this threat as a tactic, a negotiating tactic. But they said if the tariffs did go into place, it would increase prices here in the U.S. and also slow down growth.

And look, we don't know how the E.U. is going to respond here. But they've already set into motion potential retaliatory tariffs on more than $100 billion of U.S. goods if the trade talks with the U.S. goes south, and it's those retaliatory tariffs that would threaten U.S. jobs.

[17:04:43]

EGAN: Now, the president also now attacking Apple. Apple joining a growing list of U.S. companies that have been attacked by the president so far this year including Amazon, Bank of America, Boeing, Disney over ABC News, Barbie maker Mattel, Paramount the owner of CBS News and Walmart.

And the thing that Walmart and Amazon and Apple have in common is all of those attacks, and Mattel, all of those attacks have to do with tariffs.

Now, the president said that if Apple does not move its manufacturing back to the U.S., then he's going to put this at least 25 percent tariff.

But the problem with moving the manufacturing to the U.S. is there's estimates out there that if iPhones were made in the United States because of the high cost of labor here, the cost of an iPhone would triple to $3,500 making it basically unaffordable to many Americans. And also, of course, undoing some of the progress when it comes to the cost of living.

That's why veteran tech analyst Dan Ives, he says that we believe the concept of Apple producing iPhones in the U.S. is a fairy tale that is not feasible.

And one last point here. Even if Apple somehow found a way to make it economical, it would be very hard, if not impossible, for them to find enough people in the U.S. who have both the skills and the desire to make iPhones.

Back to you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JIMENEZ: Matt Egan, really appreciate that breakdown.

Here, to break it down further, Reuters White House correspondent Jeff Mason and CNN global economic analyst Rana Foroohar. They join us live.

So Rana, I want to start with you because -- and the -- and the tariff threats against Apple specifically. Here's Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick last month.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD LUTNICK, U.S. COMMERCE SECRETARY: The army of millions and millions of human beings screwing in little, little screws to make iPhones, that kind of thing is going to come to America. It's going to be automated. And great Americans, the trade craft of America is going to fix them. It's going to work on them. (END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: I play that because it's become maybe an infamous soundbite within the context of this conversation. But practically speaking, are we going to see Apple building manufacturing plants in America? I mean, is there even a shred of that that is realistic?

RANA FOROOHAR, CNN GLOBAL ECONOMIC ANALYST: Well, you know, you certainly can bring back manufacturing. I mean, we saw that with the Chips Act that the Biden administration put through. We were able to bring back semiconductors in about 18 months.

But that's not what iPhones are. You know, that's a very complicated product with a lot of low value parts in it, many of which are assembled abroad.

You know, I find Secretary Lutnick's comment interesting because its counterintuitive to the Trump message that somehow if we bring back manufacturing, we're going to bring back jobs.

Actually, what the secretary is saying is we'll automate those jobs. And there's a lot of truth in that because high-end manufacturing is very automated. It's becoming more automated.

You know, I'm not so sure that iPhones are actually what you want to be making in the U.S. Semiconductors maybe, high-end pharmaceutical inputs possibly. You want to think strategically, but not bring back everything, and certainly not bring back low value items.

That's not going to be helpful for the, you know, for working people. And I'm not so sure that it would even take you higher up the food chain in a way that you know, folks that want to bring back production would argue.

JIMENEZ: And it's something Apple has talked about for a long time now, how difficult it would be to bring that back, even going back to the Steve Jobs days.

Jeff, look, Tim Cook was among the tech CEOs who really let their support be known in the lead up to the inauguration, during the inauguration and beyond. And yet he's still being hit with this threat.

I mean, does it send a message to some of the other leaders who have attempted to let their support be known that, hey, it's good to have the support, but maybe there's a limit?

JEFF MASON, REUTERS WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think -- I think you can draw that conclusion for anyone who has been in Trump's inner circle as a political advisor or maybe broader circle as a business associate, that he will turn on you.

I mean, if you look back at Trump 1.0, the first term, he frequently would turn on people who were around him, close advisors using his infamous "I fire you" mantra. So he's not firing Tim Cook. He doesn't have that power, but he's

certainly turning on him here in terms of putting this pressure on him to move manufacturing to the U.S. for the iPhone.

And, you know, as Rana and Matt have both really very expertly explained, that's a lot harder to do than it is to say I want it done.

And I've covered President Trump for a long time. You know, I think sometimes he makes these decisions, or at least I would analyze it, sometimes he makes these decisions as much on emotion as on logic.

[17:09:53]

MASON: And I think he's annoyed that a big American company like Apple can't produce or isn't producing these things here. And so he's going to lash out. And that's kind of what he's done by doing this.

But I would also add there's a couple of unanswered questions about how do you put a specific tariff on a company as opposed to a country. He was asked that in the Oval Office on Friday, and answered it by saying it would apply to other companies as well, like Samsung.

But that's still sort of a broadly unaddressed question that the White House has yet to explain.

JIMENEZ: Sure. And look, it's not just Apple and Samsung. Trump is also now threatening tariffs on the European Union.

Rana, I want to bring you in on that front because what are you hearing about Trump's thinking here? And to Jeff's point, it seems to be in the context of not getting to a place that they want to be with the E.U. to this point.

FOROOHAR: Yes, 100 percent. And I think this goes to Jeff's point about the president's psychology, which is always in evidence. This is -- this is a movie we've seen before. You know, if he doesn't get what he wants, he threatens in trade talks, he threatens tariffs.

But I have to say, you know, I spent a lot of time reporting in the U.K. I write for British publication. I do not think that this approach is going to work with the E.U. at this moment for a couple of reasons.

Trump's antics not just in trade, but frankly, that really mind- boggling conversation with Zelenskyy in the White House was a real galvanizer for Europe.

You know, you saw after that event, you saw Germans saying, you know what? We are going to spend again, we're not going to worry about inflation, we're going to rearm. We're going to take more responsibility for our defense.

That's a good thing. You know, it's something the president has wanted and other presidents have wanted. But now you see the U.K. actually looking for backdoor ways into the E.U. The U.K. has just cut a new security and trade pact with the E.U. So what I see is the president in some ways making Europe great again.

You know, he's really solidifying the sense that, gosh, the U.S. is not a reliable ally.

And I also wouldn't be surprised to see more talks between the E.U. and China, because there are a lot of moving pieces here. This isn't just about what Trump wants. It's a big, wide world.

U.S. is only 26 percent of the global economy now. You know, it's not what it was in the 60s, which seems to be the time that the president wants to emulate, the 50s and 60s. And he may not get his way.

JIMENEZ: And we have seen his behavior galvanize other countries, even in Canada, widely credited with the rise of Mark Carney rising to prime minister there.

Jeff, on Capitol Hill, we saw the president there this week really pushing the spending bill over the finish line. And -- but the questions, I guess the economic ramifications are pretty multifaceted here because at least the Congressional Budget Office analysis we have to this point shows it would add to the deficit, which could be affecting the yield forecast in the bond market.

I wonder just -- can you walk us through what we saw this week and why Trump wants to put his stamp on this bill, as he's called it, the big I don't have it in front of me. The big, beautiful spending bill.

MASON: The Big Beautiful Bill. As long as you're not asking me --

(CROSSTALK)

JIMENEZ: Yes, yes. I knew you have it.

MASON: -- the bond market, then -- then we're in good shape.

JIMENEZ: I'll leave the bond market for Rana. You explain the big, beautiful part.

MASON: That's a deal. That's a deal.

Ok. Number one, I think it's important to underscore that the things that are in the Big Beautiful Bill, as it is actually officially named, are core to President Trump's domestic policy agenda.

Most of what he has achieved in terms of domestic policy -- domestic policy since coming into office has been done through executive order and the -- this would be his signature legislative achievement.

And it also has a grab bag of promises that he made on the campaign trail, including, of course, the tax cuts. So yes, he was putting pressure on lawmakers this last week. He got it over the finish line. It still has to go to the Senate next. So it's not done yet.

But there are absolutely concerns about it on both sides of the aisle with regard to the deficit and the debt. And the White House largely addresses that by saying, look, this is going to be stimulative, it's going to help the economy, and that's going to offset these concerns.

But even neutral observers, including the Congressional Budget Office, have said it's going to add trillions to the nation's debt pile.

JIMENEZ: So, Rana, now let's talk about the bond market, because --

FOROOHAR: Yes.

JIMENEZ: -- you know, more debt, more uncertainty for lending. I mean, just it doesn't seem like many people are taking, I guess, that aspect very seriously even as Moody's downgrading the credit rating.

I wonder what you see, the implications on the bond market are from this bill.

[17:14:46]

FOROOHAR: Well, very, very serious, to be perfectly honest. I mean, you know, I think professional investors are taking this very seriously. Retail investors, average folks that are, you know, mostly in equities, not so much.

And I suspect that will change because what happens when the bond market says we're going to charge more for borrowing? We don't think the U.S. is as safe as it used to be.

And by the way, a lot of people in my world are calling the Big Beautiful Bill Triple B, which is would be an additional downgrade if that happens. So it's become a bit of a joke.

You know, that eventually hits what you pay on your credit card debt. That hits what you pay for a home. That hits what you pay for an auto loan. So eventually these things really do trickle through to the real world.

I think one of the reasons that you haven't seen a bigger, longer lasting stock market correction yet is that a, Europe and China have their own problems so it's kind of like, where else do you go but the U.S. markets? And B, we have an entire generation -- I'm part of this generation -- that has really grown up seeing nothing but, you know, a U.S. bull market. U.S. stocks are always going up. Yes they go down occasionally but they go right back up.

We may be at a pivot point actually, where we're in a different kind of a market. I think the price of gold reflects that. I thought it was interesting that Costco actually put a limit on gold bars going out of the store. You can do one now at a time instead of two.

I think that reflects the fact that people actually are a little bit worried, and they don't quite know what to make of all this yet.

JIMENEZ: Yes. Rana Foroohar and bond market expert Jeff Mason, appreciate you both being here.

All right. Still ahead, international students at Harvard are on edge as the Trump administration tries to stop them from attending the prestigious school. We're going to have the very latest on this fight next.

Plus, the Piano Man puts the brakes on his upcoming tour. We're going to tell you more about the brain disorder that Billy Joel says is affecting his hearing, vision and balance.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM. Stay with us.

[17:16:45]

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JIMENEZ: All right. Welcome back.

Thousands of international students at Harvard are in limbo right now, worried about whether they'll be allowed to come back next semester. A federal judge yesterday did temporarily block President Trump's efforts to ban Harvard's enrolling of foreign students. But as CNN's Jason Carroll reports, students are panicking, waiting to see what happens next.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: For many international students at Harvard, being accepted and coming here is a dream come true. A dream many now fear is coming to an end.

LEO GERDEN, HARVARD STUDENT FROM SWEDEN: I came to this place because I love this country and I love the values that it stands for and its openness to people of different backgrounds. And I truly believe that that is still America. But right now Trump is attacking all of those values.

MARC HVIDKJAER, HARVARD DOCTORAL CANDIDATE FROM DENMARK: I'm in limbo. And, you know, the government has showed its hand here, and it shows to what lengths It is willing to go.

CARROLL: Hvidkjaer and students like him are now faced with big decisions. Do they stay and hope the courts permanently block the Trump administration's order banning Harvard from admitting international students or not take the risk and leave?

ABDULLAH SHAHID SIAL, HARVARD STUDENT FROM PAKISTAN: Right now, we're not sure. No one is sure if we're legally allowed in the U.S. or not.

CARROLL: Abdullah Shahid Sial is Harvard student body president and a sophomore studying Applied Mathematics.

Do you feel confident that you will be able to come back and study in the fall?

SIAL: Not at all. No. Not even close. I'm not confident about that.

CARROLL: The administration says its efforts are in part an effort to get Harvard to do more to stop anti-Semitism on campus. This international student from Israel says while the university could take more action, she does not believe the Trump administration's decisions are helping.

GENIA LUKIN, HARVARD STUDENT FROM ISRAEL: This specific measure targets a population that is not actually in position to fight any of it, and that is also going to include, among others, Jewish and Israeli students who have been experiencing this anti-Semitism and hostile environment for the past two years and now are also experiencing this mess.

CARROLL: Harvard Professor Ryan Enos says even if the courts ultimately decide in Harvard's favor, the damage may already be done.

RYAN ENOS, HARVARD PROFESSOR: I am not sure I can look to a student now with a straight face and say, I can guarantee what's going to be in the future for you. And that's -- and that's a really sad thing.

CARROLL: That very same professor who you just heard from says that international students are coming to him looking for advice, looking for guidance. He told me he cannot look at them straight in the eye and tell them with all certainty what their next move should be.

Jason Carroll, CNN -- Cambridge, Massachusetts.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

JIMENEZ: Jason Carroll, appreciate it.

I want to bring in that Harvard University Professor Ryan Enos. Good to see you again, as we just saw you on camera there.

But at this point, the point remains. What are you telling students? I mean, should they be preparing to return next semester, or do they need to make different arrangements?

ENOS: You know, none of us know what to tell them. And in many ways, these types of matters are out of the hands of professors like myself.

They've been thrown into what is decided by the courts. And we've seen that the courts have sided with Harvard as they should have. The law on this is very clear.

[17:24:46]

ENOS: But that doesn't mean that the Trump administration isn't going to keep trying to bend the law, because that's clearly they don't care about the law in this case. They care about trying to punish their political enemies.

And what that means is it means we don't know what to tell students. We don't -- we can't tell them, oh, well, the law is on your side, even though it very clearly is because we know that Trump will pull out all stops to try to punish his political enemies.

JIMENEZ: And at the very least, it creates uncertainty, which you know, people want to try and plan where they are going to be a month from now, a year from Now, or where they want to graduate from.

I want to play a little bit more from the Harvard student body president. Listen to what he told our Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SIAL: He also benefits heavily from having the best in the world to come to their -- come to their universities and study. And then they're being dehumanized and disrespected in a manner where they're being used as poker chips. So they're literally like teenagers or in like, thousands of miles away from their hometowns, having to deal with the situation, which lawyers often fear to engage in.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JIMENEZ: And it raises a larger point of do you see a risk of brain drain here, of losing these high achieving foreign students to other universities perhaps in other countries?

ENOS: Oh, 100 percent. In fact, I received an email today, for example, from a professor in Korea who had told me how he always advised his best students to come to the United States because that was the best place in the world to study. And now he said, I can't advise them that anymore.

JIMENEZ: Wow.

ENOS: And it's important to realize what an amazing loss is this for the United States. What a tremendous loss this is for the United States.

We have had the greatest gift we could possibly have, that the best people in the world come to the United States to study at our universities and contribute to our society, and many of them stay. And now we are on the verge of throwing that away.

We are in the process of throwing it away because of Donald Trump's political grievances. And if this is allowed to happen, it is going to be something that America will look back on with extreme regret.

JIMENEZ: And he does seem to be singling out Harvard, at least at this stage. Yesterday, he was asked whether he was considering this ban at other universities. Take a quick listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you considering stopping other universities besides Harvard from accepting foreign students?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, we're taking a look at a lot of things. And as you know billions of dollars has been paid to Harvard. How ridiculous is that? Billions.

And they have $52 billion as an endowment. They have $52 billion. And this country is paying billions and billions of dollars and then give student loans, and they have to pay back the loans. So Harvard's going to have to change its ways.

(END VIDEO CLIP) JIMENEZ: I just wanted to get your reaction to that characterization. I mean, you're a professor that works there and actually interfaces with these students and with the university. Just what's your reaction to that characterization?

ENOS: So like many things that Donald Trump says, it's not true. So those $9 billion that Harvard gets is not something that is given to Harvard as a gift. Those are competitive grants that have been awarded to Harvard by experts in order for Harvard to further the research interests of the American people, because it was determined the best place to do that.

So when Donald Trump takes that money away to pursue his political grievances, he's essentially taking away the money that was given to advance the research interests of the American people. He's punishing the American people, not Harvard.

And we need to be very clear about that by taking these international students out of Harvard, he is punishing the American people. He's certainly punishing those international students. But he is doing damage to America, not just Harvard.

JIMENEZ: Ryan Enos, I really appreciate you taking the time. And as always, keep us posted on how things are going there on campus.

ENOS: I will. Thank you.

JIMENEZ: All right. Now, a masked man caught on surveillance video vandalizing several mosques around Austin, Texas. Here's some of the video.

We're going to bring you the details on what we know so far.

You're in the CNN NEWSROOM.

[17:28:50]

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[17:33:14]

JIMENEZ: Police in Austin are investigating after three local mosques were vandalized, and security cameras outside one of the mosques captured the moment a masked man spray-painted symbols on Thursday night. You see him on video there. The police announced they are patrolling all mosques in the city and urging people to report any suspicious activity.

I want to bring in CNN Correspondent Julia Vargas Jones who joins us live. So Julia, what do we know so far about this investigation?

JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well Omar, so far, no arrests have been made, but the surveillance video is helping. When we see a suspect who appears to be a white male, he's covering his face at the Nueces Mosque at around 11.30 p.m. on Thursday night. He went on to spray-paint different symbols around these mosques, including one imam's office door with the Star of David. The Austin Police Department said that they are actively investigating these incidents and closely monitoring these and other locations around the city, adding in a statement that police is committed to fostering a secure and inclusive community where hatred is not tolerated.

Now, one member of that Muslim community spoke to CNN's affiliate in Austin and they said that the Star of David, in and of itself, is a religious symbol that they respect, but that using it to deface a place of worship is vandalism.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I've seen an increase in Islamophobia, anti-Arab and anti-Palestinian sentiments since October 2023. It's a shame. It's a shame to target worship places.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

JONES: An American Islamic Relations issued a statement on Friday saying, quote, "These are the latest in a disturbing pattern of hate- motivated incidents targeting Austin mosques in recent months." And adding that the Nueces Mosque alone had reported four hate incidents since late October last year.

[17:35:01]

In 2024, they received record numbers of complaint of Islamophobia nationwide at CAIR, pointing to a new and concerning trend, Omar. What they say that has less to do with religious intolerance than with political viewpoints, particularly about the war in Gaza.

JIMENEZ: Julia Vargas Jones, really appreciate the point. Thanks for being here.

All right, authorities have arrested a seventh person in connection with the escape of 10 inmates from a New Orleans jail. Only five inmates have been captured so far. But a team of more than 200 local, state and federal law enforcement officers and agents are working around the clock to try and apprehend the remaining escapees.

Now, a source with direct knowledge of the investigation told CNN that the inmates used electric hair trimmers with multiple clipper blades to help cut their way through the cell walls. And as you can see in this picture, too easy is one of the messages that was left.

Meanwhile, music legend Billy Joel says a rare brain condition will force him to halt his upcoming tour. We'll bring you the details coming up. You're in the CNN Newsroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[17:40:48] JIMENEZ: Legendary singer-songwriter Billy Joel is canceling all of his scheduled concerts after he was recently diagnosed with a neurological disorder. He's being treated for normal pressure hydrocephalus, also known as NPH. And according to Yale Medicine, it is a very rare condition that, quote, "occurs when a person has too much fluid in the brain".

Joining us now to discuss CNN Medical Analyst, Dr. Jonathan Reiner. He's a professor of Medicine and Surgery at George Washington University. Doctor, I really appreciate you being here. Can you just tell us a little bit more about NPH? What is it? How does it affect the brain and how rare is it?

JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Yes, so normal pressure hydrocephalus is a neurologic condition that occurs when there is too much cerebral spinal fluid in and around the brain. CSF, cerebral spinal fluid, is this liquid that has a bunch of purposes. It transports nutrients in and metabolic waste out of the brain.

It also acts as sort of a cushion to protect the brain between the brain and the spinal cord. And when there's too much spinal fluid that can increase -- that can basically compress the brain and people can -- will present with a variety of neurologic symptoms.

JIMENEZ: So I guess the question is, what do some of those symptoms look like here?

REINER: Right. Yes. So there's a classic triad of symptoms that people typically have. One is incontinence. People will begin to develop typically urinary incontinence. Another symptom is a difficulty walking.

Some people will have a odd gait, sometimes a shuffling gait. People can fall. And the third element of this triad is -- are basically cognitive deficits. People have trouble with memory. People may have trouble with various executive functions of processing information.

And the issue with diagnosing this is that sometimes these symptoms can mimic dementia. So the precise diagnosis can be challenging. People get scans. Sometimes people have what's called a lumbar puncture to remove some of the volume of the CSF to see if that improves their symptoms.

So it can take a while to make the diagnosis. But the good news about this diagnosis, rather than just dementia, is that this can be treated. It can be treated by basically shunting blood from the ventricles that contain the CSF in the brain through a valve and then a thin tube that drains all the way down into the abdominal cavity. So if Mr. Joel does indeed have this diagnosis, it might be very treatable.

JIMENEZ: Well, that is definitely good news. But at the very least, he seems taking time to try and get this under control.

I want to ask you about another topic. Specifically, I wanted to ask about the Make Our Children Healthy Again report released by HHS Secretary Robert F. Kennedy earlier this week. Here's a little bit of what he told CNN's Kaitlan Collins about his approach to trusting scientific experts.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS SECRETARY: Trusting the experts is not a feature of science. It's not a feature of democracy. It's a feature of religion and totalitarianism. The -- what we should do is trust the science and we are going to do the science and the science is going to be replicable and it's going to be gold standard.

People should not be taking medical advice. I'm somebody who is not a physician, but they -- and they should also be skeptical about any medical advice. They need to do their own research.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

JIMENEZ: As a so-called expert, what do you make of that message?

REINER: Well, first of all, trusting the experts is not a feature of totalitarian organizations. It's a feature -- yes, it's a feature of modern society.

[17:45:00]

And in fact, when you look at fascist regimes, the first thing they've done is to marginalize academics and intellectuals and scientists. And our whole health system is based on trust. It's based on people trusting the experts.

When someone comes to my office, for instance, to talk about what to do about their aortic valve, they're coming to me because I'm an expert on that topic. And I don't ask anyone to blindly believe me. And I encourage people to even get another opinion.

And yes, sure. Do your own research. But people seek help from experts. And when I, for instance, have a question in medicine from something that is not in my lane, I seek out people who are expert. And that really is it should be the source of information in the United States.

And the funny thing about science is that it's true whether you believe it or not. A scientific fact doesn't require you to believe it. It's still a fact. And that's what Mr. Kennedy seems to have a problem with. He has his own set of assumptions and he's desperate to try and prove them to be true and prove the existing set of science facts to be false.

JIMENEZ: Dr. Jonathan Reiner, always appreciate the time and perspective. Thanks for being here.

REINER: My pleasure.

JIMENEZ: All right, Monday night on CNN, we're going to take a look at the storied career of one of the most influential artists of all time, Luther Vandross, from his formative years in Harlem, appearing in the Apollo Theater House Band and the first episodes of Sesame Street to his rise as the king of love songs. The CNN film "Luther: Never Too Much" replays Monday at 8:00 p.m. Eastern and Pacific.

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[17:51:32]

JIMENEZ: A Biden era federal program set aside millions of dollars to help rural Alabama families install new septic tanks to fix a hazardous raw sewage problem. Now, the Trump administration has shut down that program, with the Justice Department saying the move was just advancing the President's mandate to end so-called illegal DEI.

CNN's Isabel Rosales has more.

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ISABEL ROSALES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So what is this right here?

MAUTREE BURKE-CLARKE, LOWNDES COUNTY, ALABAMA RESIDENT: This is actually the pipe that's run from our house to actually tank that was, you know, here. But now, you know, say the system just basically is caved in.

ROSALES: It collapsed.

BURKE-CLARKE: Right.

ROSALES: This sewage system.

BURKE-CLARKE: Right.

ROSALES (voice-over): In Lowndes County, flushing doesn't come without some thought and preparation.

ROSALES: Now, I see some water pulled up to here. Is this raw sewage that I'm looking at right now?

BURKE-CLARKE: It is. Yes.

ROSALES (voice-over): Land known for having the richest soil and the poorest people. The Blackbelt of Alabama is where Mautree Burke-Clarke calls home, named after its fertile black soil. But that hard soil is virtually non-absorbent. And community advocates tell us conventional septic systems are costly to replace.

BURKE-CLARKE: It's not because it will come back. You know, it will come back, it flows into the house.

ROSALES: It backflows into the house?

BURKE-CLARKE: Right.

ROSALES: How? Where does it come?

BURKE-CLARKE: It'll come sometimes to come through the kitchen sink. And then sometimes it will come through the bathtubs. The odor is unbearable.

ROSALES (voice-over): A first of its kind, 18-month federal environmental justice investigation that ended in 2022 found the people of Lowndes County did not have access to proper sewage systems. And the State Department of Public Health engaged in a consistent pattern of inaction and or neglect that disproportionately impacted Black residents.

President Joe Biden's government agreed to set aside money to help address the sanitation crisis, including $8 million for Lowndes and two nearby counties to help install new septic tanks. But last month, the Trump Department of Justice terminated the agreement.

The DOJ will no longer push environmental justice as viewed through a distorting DEI lens, said the DOJ Civil Rights Division in a news release, calling the program illegal DEI. Lowndes County is a 72 percent majority Black community.

The median household income sits just above the poverty line at $35,000 a year. A standard septic system will run anywhere from $12,000 to $30,000, according to community advocates.

SHERRY BRADLEY, ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENTIST, BLACKBELT UNINCORPORATED WASTEWATER PROGRAM: That's too much money.

ROSALES (voice-over): Sherry Bradley works to get low-income families septic systems. When she started six years ago, she estimated 70 percent of homes in Lowndes County had straight pipes, an illegal but sole option that involves rigging PVC pipes above ground to direct fecal matter away from homes.

Since then, progress. She's installed more than 120 systems and counting.

BRADLEY: Isabel, follow me in the back.

ROSALES: OK.

BRADLEY: I want to show you some things.

ROSALES (voice-over): Sherry takes me to a home she says will make the sanitation crisis brutally clear. This is the Paramond (ph) family. A disabled couple who tell me they need help.

BRADLEY: I want to show you what a straight pipe looks like when they flush the toilet. It comes straight out, but it goes on the ground. You see the green tint?

ROSALES: That's raw sewage right there.

BRADLEY: That's raw sewage.

ROSALES (voice-over): This is what straight piping looks like, leading fecal matter away from the home, leaking as it goes and leaving hazardous puddles of waste behind.

[17:55:02]

BRADLEY: We operate 100 percent off of grants. If you want to fix the problem of getting raw sewage off the ground, it takes funding.

ROSALES (voice-over): Her organization was a sub-recipient of the Biden-era grant. She says now that it's been shut down by the Trump administration, at least 300 Alabamians who were in line for help are in limbo.

BRADLEY: I was surprised because everything they said the grant was, was not.

ROSALES: So you reject the notion that this is a matter of DEI?

BRADLEY: Completely, 100 percent.

ROSALES (voice-over): Sherry says Blackbelt residents are a resilient bunch, and she too will fight on, looking to other grants.

ROSALES: Can this be done without the help of the federal government?

BRADLEY: Oh, no. I think, Isabel, that the federal government has a duty to help. Just like they help in the city, just like when they lay the sewer laterals, they have a duty to help.

ROSALES (voice-over): Isabel Rosales, CNN, Lowndes County, Alabama.

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