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Outrage Grows After Heavily Redacted Partial Epstein Files Release; Vance Addresses Turning Point USA's Youth Conference; Trump Expands D.C. Makeover With Name Added On Kennedy Center. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired December 21, 2025 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:04]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: Hello again, everyone! Thank you so much for joining me this Sunday. I'm Fredricka Whitfield.

We begin this hour with the growing outrage and criticism today over the limited release and heavily redacted files related to the investigation of convicted sex offender, Jeffrey Epstein.

CNN has confirmed that more than a dozen files that were released Friday as part of the Department of Justice's Epstein library now appear to have been removed from the website as of this morning. That includes at least one phone in an open desk drawer of now President Donald Trump, who has not been accused of any wrongdoing or charged with any crimes in connection with Epstein.

And today, the DOJ said it will continue to review and redact materials from the trove of already released Epstein files to "protect victims."

And today, two of the lawmakers who pushed for the release of the files say they are now considering holding U.S. Attorney General Pam Bondi in contempt of Congress over the extensive redactions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): I will tell you why. I've talked to the survivors, why this is such a slap in the face. One of the survivors said they released her name accidentally, but they still have not released the FBI file about the people who abused her at her request.

And the problem here is that there are rich and powerful people, we all know this, there are 1,200 victims. There are rich and powerful people who either engaged in this abuse, covered it up, or were on this island. And what the American people want to know is who are these people? And instead of holding them accountable, Pam Bondi is breaking the law. And this is the corrupt system, the Epstein class that people are sick of.

REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): The quickest way, and I think the most expeditious way to get justice for these victims is to bring inherent contempt against Pam Bondi. And that doesn't require going through the courts and give her -- and basically Ro Khanna and I are talking about and drafting that right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: CNN's Kevin Liptak is joining us now from near President Trump's Florida home, where he is spending the holidays.

Kevin, walk us through what The White House and the DOJ is saying about all of this.

KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Yes, the administration very much on the defensive for how they have handled the release of these documents. You know, it is outcry; certainly Democrats, but also some Republicans questioning why the administration didn't release all of the documents by that 30-day deadline on Friday, but also questioning why so much of this was redacted.

And you've heard from victims and advocates who say that many of the revelations that they're looking for weren't contained in this particular release. And so that's the backdrop against which Todd Blanche, the Deputy Attorney General, was out this morning, strongly refuting that the administration wasn't complying with the law.

He shrugged off this question of holding Pam Bondi in contempt, but he also acknowledged that some of the documents that the Justice Department released on Friday had been taken down. He said that this was a question of redacting more information about potential victims.

He says this is a massive undertaking. You know, he says there are millions of pages of documents that they have to go through. More than a hundred lawyers at the Justice Department undertaking that task. But he was questioned specifically about that photograph that included an image of President Trump, which appeared on the Justice Department's website on Friday but seemed to have been taken down yesterday.

Listen to how he explained what happened here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TODD BLANCHE, DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: There were a number of photographs that were pulled down after being released on Friday. That's because a judge in New York has ordered us to listen to any victim or victim rights group, if they have any concerns about the material that we are putting up. And so when we hear concerns, whether it is photographs of women that we do not believe are victims or we didn't have information to show that they were victims, but we learned that there are concerns, of course, we are taking that photograph down and we are going to address it if we need to redact faces or other information, we will, and then we will put it back up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LIPTAK: Now, when it comes to that photograph that included the image of President Trump, he said that in that instance, there were concerns about some of the women that were in that photo, but that it had nothing to do with President Trump himself.

He says, "We are not redacting information around President Trump" -- Fredricka.

WHITFIELD: All right, Kevin Liptak, thank you so much.

All right, just moments ago, Vice President J.D. Vance addressed a crowd of young conservatives, capping a Turning Point USA conference marked by simmering tensions. The public clashes over the future direction of the MAGA movement threatened to eclipse organizers' efforts to honor its late founder, Charlie Kirk, who was assassinated in September.

Vance told the crowd not to be discouraged by the infighting, saying, "Free thinkers" are better equipped to lead the country and MAGA forward.

[15:05:10]

CNN's senior reporter Steve Contorno is joining us live now from Phoenix. What more did the Vice President say?

STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Well, he really addressed head one of the elephants in the room, which was this tension that has been simmering throughout this event all weekend long. We have seen some of these speakers hurl insults at each other. Steve Bannon calling Ben Shapiro a cancer, Ben Shapiro throwing shade at Megyn Kelly. And while J.D. Vance appeared here in a way to be a peacekeeper, he did so by somewhat embracing this disconnect -- discontent, saying, "Wouldn't you rather lead a movement of free thinkers who sometimes disagree than a bunch of drones?" Also saying he wasn't there to denounce or de-platform everyone that was in reference to some of the debates that we've seen taking place on the right lately over whether or not podcasters like Candace Owens, the conspiracy theorist who has been throwing out all sorts of unfounded claims about Charlie Kirk's death, should have a place in the party.

This also comes as 2028 chatter is starting to begin, partially fueled by what happened at this event. Erika Kirk saying that she intends to support J.D. Vance for President in 2028. Now, Vance himself did not directly address those -- her remarks on that front, but he did make a little bit of a quip looking ahead to who his potential opponents might be. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE (R), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Democrats are already talking about 2028, and it looks like they're going to nominate a California liberal who has presided --

(BOOING)

VANCE: A California liberal who has presided over rolling blackouts, open borders and unchecked violent gangs. They are just trying to settle on whether it is going to be Gavin Newsom or Kamala Harris.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CONTORNO: Now, as the Vice President, it is obvious that J.D. Vance would be one of the top contenders, if not the top contender to potentially succeed Trump in 2028. But looking at this new CNN polling, Republican voters certainly put him ahead as well, 22 percent of Republican and Republican leaning voters say that he should run in 2028. That is well ahead of the rest of the field, though I will say at this point, 64 percent just said they don't have any idea who should be in the mix.

But this is some of the early posturing that we are seeing and Vance sort of flicking to it here at this event. It was very interesting to watch -- Fred.

WHITFIELD: Indeed. All right, well, Steve Contorno, thank you so much there in Phoenix.

All right, this past week, President Trump continued to put his stamp on Washington, D.C. On Friday, The Kennedy Center added Donald Trump's name to the facade of the Performing Arts Center, as you see right there, after his handpicked board of trustees voted to rename the facility after both John F. Kennedy and President Trump. That move comes after Trump unexpectedly decided to tear down the East Wing of The White House recently to build a ballroom.

And this past week, his makeover expanded with The White House installing plaques along the West Wing Colonnade that Trump has named the Presidential Walk of Fame. The panels offer descriptions of his predecessors, often written in the style of his social media posts, including insults and baseless claims.

I am joined now by Tim Naftali. He is a CNN presidential historian and former director of the Nixon Presidential Library.

Tim, great to see you.

TIM NAFTALI, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Hi, Fred.

WHITFIELD: So we've got a lot of ground to cover here.

I mean, Trump has added his name to the United States Institute of Peace Building in the midst of an ongoing legal fight over the institute's control. His bigger than life picture or banners draped federal buildings, Department of Agriculture and even of Labor. And now his name being added to The Kennedy Center.

So usually Congress or at least some historical societies must weigh in on these kinds of renovations or removing or adding of lettering, et cetera. I mean, there are processes. So how is it that Trump is continuing to kind of break these rules or protocols unchecked?

NAFTALI: Well, the most important cause of this is that the President has found money. He has found private money, money we don't know very much about, but money to proceed with a renovation of The White House complex.

Keep in mind that his predecessors did make changes to The White House. Presidents Theodore Roosevelt, Franklin Roosevelt, Harry Truman, they made changes to The White House campus, but they sought congressional appropriations. They used public money.

[15:10:10]

And when you begin to ask Congress for money, you get congressional oversight. Donald Trump, President Trump has apparently approached billionaires and possibly even foreign countries to secretly provide money for his redo, and that has allowed him to proceed without oversight.

In terms of the other changes. Well, frankly, they are not going to necessarily last very long. The Department of Defense is still called the Department of Defense, only Congress can change its name. We will see the future of the Institute of Peace.

So some of what he is doing is simply cosmetic; other things that he is doing may be medium or long term changes because he is using outside secret money.

WHITFIELD: The Trump administration is also adding pressure this weekend through a letter to the Smithsonian. The administration had already said it wanted to get rid of what Trump called improper ideology, and now wants more documentation of content review.

I mean, what do you see is going on here?

NAFTALI: Well, it is very worrisome. I mean, after all, I am a professional historian and I really believe that the health of our democracy depends on Americans understanding their past and that's not asking every American -- we don't have time usually for that -- to become an expert in history. That's what we are supposed to do.

But it is really healthy for our democracy to understand that this glorious experiment has had rough patches and dark moments. There is nothing wrong with telling the complexity of the American story. It is still a strong, positive story.

The President, though, has sent the signal to our National Museums that he doesn't want a complicated story. He doesn't want Americans to learn about the ups and downs, about the fact that not all Americans have been able to participate in the wealth and beauty and the rights of this fine nation. He doesn't want that.

And so as we enter the celebration of our 250th anniversary, I expect there to be a national conversation about how we tell our children about our past and the President, unfortunately, is trying to bully his way forward, but there are too many stakeholders in this story.

I expect a rich, important national conversation next year.

WHITFIELD: Okay. Meantime, the President also wanting to tell a different kind of story about his predecessors, this wall of plaques, you know, targeting these former presidents and in a less than honorable fashion, you know, for all of them. What does this serve, in your view?

NAFTALI: Well, Fred, on the one hand, the President is telling us he only wants a good story, right, told about the nation. And on the other hand, in the People's House, he is attacking his predecessors. Not all of them, frankly, but quite a few.

So, look, the President is not consistent about this. After all, we have a White House Historical Association that is really good, really expert, really nonpartisan. It could have come in and wrote little, you know, explanations for each president if the President bothered to ask. Instead, we get a partisan, "Hall of Fame."

It is really unfortunate because after all, the White House is the People's House and the President only has it for a few years before he hands it on to somebody new.

He should remember, he is keeping it in trust for the American people. It is not his to change.

WHITFIELD: All right, Tim Naftali, great to see you. Thanks for being with us this weekend. Happy Holidays.

NAFTALI: Happy Holidays to you, too and everyone else.

WHITFIELD: Thank you.

All right, still ahead, the U.S. is moving to intercept a third vessel near Venezuela's coast. Is this practice a deterrence for sanctioned ships or a step toward war?

Plus, access under threat. A major Trump administration push to ban children's access to gender affirming care by targeting the hospitals that provide it. The consequences this could have for families nationwide.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:18:54]

WHITFIELD: All right, happening now, the Trump administration continues its pressure campaign on Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro. A U.S. official tells CNN the U.S. was pursuing a vessel in international waters near Venezuela after attempting to intercept it. This is the second ship targeted in the region this weekend, and the third this month.

On Saturday, the U.S. Coast Guard intercepted The Centuries tanker in international waters off the coast of Venezuela. The White House says the tanker was carrying sanctioned Venezuelan oil, though the ship itself did not appear on a list of sanctioned vessels.

With us now is Eric Farnsworth. He is a senior associate at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He also spent more than 20 years at the Council of the Americas.

Great to see you and Happy Holidays.

ERIC FARNSWORTH, SENIOR ASSOCIATE, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: Thanks Fred, to you as well and to your viewers.

WHITFIELD: Thank you. So what do you think? Is this an effective way for the U.S. to put pressure on the Maduro regime to target these vessels or, you know, come in close and seem like they're about to intercept them?

FARNSWORTH: it is a dramatic escalation, there is no question and I do think it is an effective way to pressure the regime. It also shows that a lot of the activities in the Caribbean are not strictly narcotics based. Now, you wouldn't necessarily go after sanctioned oil as a counternarcotics initiative. So this is clearly something that shows that the administration is serious about pressuring Maduro and wanting him to leave the capital.

[15:20:23]

It is also very clear, though, that this is a way to pressure others who may be supporting the Maduro regime, including Cuba, which receives a lot of free oil from Venezuela, and the oil that Cuba doesn't use, they actually sell onward to other markets.

So the administration in some ways is getting a twofer for this going after the Maduro regime, but also some of the folks that it wants to go after as well elsewhere in the region.

WHITFIELD: And the Venezuelan president, Maduro says, I mean, he is underscoring that this really is about taking Venezuelan oil, not about the illicit drug trade. Is there truth to that?

FARNSWORTH: Well, it is not about the drug trade, I would agree with that, but I don't agree with his contention that it is about taking Venezuelan oil, it is about enforcing sanctions on a criminal regime, and it is going after the lifeblood of the regime, which is to say, the financing.

And if you take that away from Maduro and his folks, he can't pay the security forces, he can't import the equipment that he needs to maintain control. And it really does question his ability to remain in power in Venezuela over time. Now, he can resist this. He can sustain himself for a long time. He has resisted sanctions for a long time since he first came into power in 2013.

But the reality is, this is going to hit them where it hurts the most. It is a sanction, really, or it is an effort that the United States has resisted for a long time, but indeed is really going after now to show, I think, the seriousness about trying to force Maduro from office.

WHITFIELD: So have a listen to Republican Senator Rand Paul and his take on the U.S. actions against these alleged drug boats, as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL (R-KY): Designations are steps towards war. Calling people terrorists, calling the drug runners terrorists; saying, oh, if they have a designation, well, how did they get to that designation? Oh, we gave it to them. And then why is the Former President Hernandez Honduras, who was in jail for 45 years, why is he released?

So some narcoterrorists are really okay and other narcoterrorists, we are going to blow up. And then some of them, if they're not designated as a terrorist, we might arrest them. It is a bizarre and contradictory policy, and I sure hope we don't go to war with Venezuela.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: Do you see a military war between the U.S. and Venezuela on the horizon here?

FARNSWORTH: Well, I really think that the United States is trying to resist that. , but I think the senator is correct that the designation of narcotics traffickers as terrorists does open the door to additional activities that the United States might have hesitated to take beforehand, which is to say military activities against regime officials in Venezuela. That is something that we haven't seen directly yet, but it is on the menu of options.

And I think the President himself said just a short time ago that he wasn't taking military action off the table. I really do think the administration, the U.S. administration, is looking for ways to get Maduro out of Venezuela without resorting to the use of force, and is trying really everything in the toolbox to try to do that.

Will it be successful? That's the $64,000.00 question. And if it is not, then they have to decide. Well, do they then stand down and declare victory or do they actually deploy military forces to try to really end the regime? And that is something that we are not there yet, but I can foresee a time relatively soon where that decision would have to be made.

WHITFIELD: All right, we will leave it there for now.

Eric Farnsworth, thank you so much.

FARNSWORTH: Thank you.

WHITFIELD: All right, still ahead, Broadway going broke. Money troubles hitting the Great White Way, putting big name musicals at risk. How fan favorites are reinventing the Broadway experience to survive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WHITFIELD: All right, this holiday season, beloved classics like "The Nutcracker" draw crowds to theaters. But Broadway musicals, an iconic part of New York City culture, well, they are struggling to turn a profit.

CNN's Leigh Waldman reports despite star power like George Clooney and Denzel Washington, Broadway shows are still facing major economic challenges.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JASON LAKS, PRESIDENT, THE BROADWAY LEAGUE: There is something really special about seeing live theater that is different than everything else.

LEIGH WALDMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): For over a century, Broadway has been at the heart of New York City culture, glittering marquees welcoming audiences to step inside, defy gravity and give them the razzle dazzle.

LAKS: As New York City goes, so goes Broadway in many respects, and vice versa.

WALDMAN (voice over): However, the rising cost of musical production is leaving the Great White Way in the red. According to "The New York Times," of the 18 musicals that opened last season, none made a profit as of late September.

Jason Laks, President of The Broadway League, says he expects only one in 10 shows will make their money back.

LAKS: It has only gotten harder since the pandemic. We are not immune from the same cost pressures that affect lots of industries.

WALDMAN (voice over): He credits much of that to skyrocketing production costs. While ticket prices have only risen slightly over the past 10 years, league data shows Broadway as a whole had its highest grossing season in a decade.

James L. Walker, Jr. says he invested $50,000.00 in the recent revival of "Cabaret," which closed early at what producers are calling a total loss.

JAMES L. WALKER, JR., BROADWAY INVESTOR: When you look at a play that's grossing an upwards of nearly a hundred million, it is hard to explain how we didn't make our money back.

[15:30:08]

WALDMAN (voice over): In August, Walker filed a lawsuit against the show's producers with the New York State Supreme Court, alleging breach of contract in what the suit calls a deliberate scheme to strip him and other investors of their money.

WALKER: Obviously, we want our money back, but yes, a major consideration is how do we change the overall infrastructure?

WALDMAN (voice over): ATG Entertainment, the defendant in the lawsuit, would not comment on active litigation, but has previously denied any wrongdoing and filed a motion to dismiss the suit.

WALDMAN (on camera): While traditional Broadway musicals are struggling to find a solution to their money problems, off-Broadway fan favorites like "Phantom of the Opera" are being reimagined, drawing in crowds for an interactive experience.

RANDY WEINER, PRODUCER, MASQUERADE: This is a part of the show that's not in the Broadway performance of it.

WALDMAN (voice over): Broadway legend, Andrew Lloyd Webber helped produce this $25 million experience, which takes place in an old six- story art shop where the audience donned masks for six nearly simultaneous nightly shows, thrusting them into the "Phantom's" world.

WEINER: We are doing everything Broadway does, except we are even doing it more.

WALDMAN (voice over): Producer, Randy Weiner doesn't plan to bring his show to Broadway, and he is not sure if this concept is the solution to Broadway's financial woes.

But as a lifelong New Yorker, he is sure of one thing --

WEINER: I am not worried that Broadway won't figure out its model, because it is an incredible New York experience. That's something that's not going anywhere.

WALDMAN (voice over): Leigh Waldman, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:36:21]

WHITFIELD: All right, the Trump administration is making it harder for hospitals and doctors to provide gender-affirming care to minors. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. proposed new rules that would prevent federal coverage for transgender surgeries and puberty blockers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY, JR., U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: The CMS is proposing two new rules. The first rule will bar hospitals that participate in Medicare and Medicaid, which is almost every hospital from performing these dangerous and harmful procedures.

The second rule prohibits the federal Medicaid dollars from funding sex rejecting procedures on minors.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WHITFIELD: The American Civil Liberties Union is pushing back, saying it will challenge the proposed rules in court. It is the latest in a string of actions by the Trump administration targeting transgender people.

Joining me right now for some perspective on this is Dr. Jack Turban, author of "Free to be Understanding: Kids and Gender Identity." He is also the director of the of the Gender Psychiatry Program at the University of California, San Francisco.

Great to see you, Doctor. DR. JACK TURBAN, AUTHOR, "FREE TO BE UNDERSTANDING: KIDS AND GENDER IDENTITY": Hi. Thanks for having me.

WHITFIELD: So what are your thoughts on these proposed rules?

TURBAN: So they are definitely concerning and unprecedented when it comes to attacks from the federal government on medicine. So these treatments are endorsed by all major medical organizations, the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry -- I could go on, and it seems that they're trying to take away the only treatment that has evidence for helping these young people.

WHITFIELD: I mean, gender affirming treatments for adolescents have been used for decades. So what does this long history of care tell us about its safety and efficiency since its now being challenged?

TURBAN: Yes, we have over 20 studies showing that mental health improves with these treatments. That is why all major medical organizations support these treatments. Regret rates have been found to be very low when treatments offered under current guidelines and I think what is missing in these conversations is these are real kids, right? I take care of kids who are so distressed by their gender dysphoria that they can't go to school, or they can't interact with their friends, or they can't shower, and to take away the only treatment that has evidence to help is really horrifying for these families and the doctors who take care of them.

WHITFIELD: The U.K.'s Cass Report on gender dysphoria is often cited to justify restrictions on transgender care. What does this report actually say about medical treatment for transgender youth?

TURBAN: Yes, we hear a lot about the Cass Report. This was a review that was commissioned by the National Health Service in the United Kingdom, looked at the research that was out there on gender dysphoria treatments for adolescents and in it, in looking at the evidence, actually explicitly says that treatment should still be available.

The author, Hilary Cass talked to "The New York Times," said that there are undoubtedly young people who benefit from these treatments. They have changed the way treatment is delivered in the United Kingdom, so they want treatment to be in clinical trials for puberty blockers to collect more data, but they actually talk about expanding access to care and their approach is entirely different from what has been starting to happen in the United States. With a lot of these politicians pushing to ban care altogether.

And again, these are the only treatments that have evidence to help these patients and we have real patients in front of us who we have to support.

WHITFIELD: Some politicians are convinced that there isn't enough evidence to support puberty blockers or hormones. Is there evidence that therapy alone works to treat gender dysphoria?

[15:40:10]

TURBAN: No. So again, over 20 studies showing improvements in mental health with gender affirming medical interventions like puberty blockers or hormones, you can talk about strengths and weaknesses of the different studies, but the reality is that what the politicians are pushing, just doing psychotherapy to treat gender dysphoria, there is no evidence that that is effective in treating gender dysphoria.

So again, these political actions and changes in regulations would take away the only treatment that we do have evidence for to help these kids, and these are real kids who are suffering and families who are going to be impacted.

WHITFIELD: Yes, I mean, RFK, Jr.'s announcement comes after the House passed a bill that could imprison doctors for providing transgender care to minors. I mean, what message does that send to health care providers?

TURBAN: Yes, I mean, it is hard for the health care providers, but I think what the most important thing here is how it is impacting the families, right? And I would encourage people to think about it if this was your own child, if you had a child who is suffering from the way they were developing and you saw them unable to go to school, unable to shower, unable to form connections and live their lives, what would you do? Right. That is a horrible situation to be in where the government is just at every turn trying to take away the one thing that you have to help your child.

So, really, that is what I am worried about. We've even seen families thinking about fleeing the country. We have some who have fled from different states. Right? So kids who are living in Texas lost access to their medical care, their parents upended their whole life, and they moved to these blue states hoping they could get treatment. And now these rules from CMS or some of these laws that are being introduced in Congress will make it so that they can't even get their care in that new state that they moved to.

WHITFIELD: Very serious struggles, very serious issues. Dr. Jack Turban, thank you so much. Appreciate it and have a great holiday season.

TURBAN: Thank you again for having me.

WHITFIELD: All right, still ahead, nearly 50 million adults in the U.S. live with chronic pain, but our very own Dr. Sanjay Gupta told me it doesn't have to be that way. Our conversation about being a little bit more introspective about Medicine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:47:04]

WHITFIELD: All right, now let's get back to our conversation with Dr. Sanjay Gupta about his in-depth look into managing pain in the modern world.

He has a great new book with so much helpful information, "It Doesn't Have to Hurt: Your Guide to a Pain Free Life."

Here is Dr. Sanjay Gupta explaining how and why this pain management issue came so close to heart.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: Let me ask you about your mom. I don't mean to bury the lead. Moms are always number one, but you know, you open up your book talking about a real turning point --

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes.

WHITFIELD: -- for your mom and for you all as a family. You were on a family ski trip, while you were away, your mom at 82 has a fall. Very serious, you know, very frightening. You were son and doctor all at once.

GUPTA: Yes.

WHITFIELD: And at the same time, you all had to make some big critical decisions about how to manage her pain, because she got to a point where she said, I don't want to live like this.

GUPTA: Right. Right.

WHITFIELD: That must have really been hard for you.

GUPTA: That was -- it was terrible. I mean, my mom is super healthy. Like you, she has never taken meds. She is just one of these people, and then she has a fall. She has a fracture in her spine. You know, it was interesting because I think you -- the immediate instinct is to say, how much does it hurt? How bad is it? And I realize how silly a question that is. She basically told me that if I have to continue living like this, I'd rather die, which is a really hard thing to hear.

But it made me realize that pain, you know, this most mysterious of human sensations can totally hijack your entire life. I mean, it totally comes to define you.

Someone might have diabetes, you wouldn't know it. Someone might have heart disease, you wouldn't know it. Pain is just -- it is so all encompassing. And that was the case for my mom. You know, she is doing a lot better now. But, you know, you watch how this is something that just takes over your whole life.

WHITFIELD: Yes, and she is doing a lot better because you asked a lot of questions, and you're encouraging patients. People have to ask a lot of questions about options because it is easy for most of us to just say, let's stick with the traditional medicines that we know. But it got to a point where you had to have discussions about, let's try more innovative approaches.

GUPTA: That's right.

WHITFIELD: How did you convince your mom, or did she convince you that she was willing to try this? This was like this kind of ballooning effect, right, to kind of lift the compressed bone.

GUPTA: Yes, that's exactly right. First of all, I knew my mom was not going to take opioids. She just wasn't. She is small. She is frail. She tried them in the past. They just did not agree with her. As bad as her pain was, she thought that that would be even worse.

So then it became a question of figuring out what to do. Her bone was collapsed and when you have a collapsed bone like that, one of the goals is to try and restore the height of the bone. So there is this innovative technique.

WHITFIELD: That really hurt.

GUPTA: Yes! Where they basically -- no incision -- they just put a needle through the skin, into that bone, blow up a balloon and sort of restore the height of the bone, and then they fill it with cement and that sort of keeps it -- so it is like an internal fusion and her pain went from, I want to die to about a three out of ten within minutes.

[15:50:20]

It is not necessarily going to work for everyone, but this is a -- you know, especially for older people, this is a technique that I think a lot of people don't know about. It is called kyphoplasty.

WHITFIELD: Wow! But there might be a lot of patients who hear kyphoplasty and hear about what this procedure is and say, no way, just let me stick with the traditional route. So how do you encourage others to be as courageous, really, about Medicine as your mom exhibited?

GUPTA: I think you have to do your homework. And, you know, look, I am a surgeon, so obviously that's my DNA. But I think, you know, it is not for everybody. I am not saying this procedure is for everyone, but as much as we overutilize things like opioids, we have greatly underutilized other things.

People who say I'd rather be on opioids for the rest of my life because of this pain should also recognize that after a while, it is not going to work as well. it is going to affect your mood. Your mood will be affected negatively as a result of that. It affects your digestive system.

There are all of these side effects.

WHITFIELD: And a lot of people don't think about that. They are just thinking about right now, I am addressing this issue. I am addressing this pain. But there are extensions that, you know, of these kinds of methods.

GUPTA: Yes, absolutely! And I think the other reason they take opioids, they think it is simple. I just have to pop a pill every day as opposed to going in and getting a procedure like this done.

And again, for some people, that might be the answer. But I think for a lot of people, they are not even aware that these other things exist.

WHITFIELD: I'm glad Mom is doing better. She is still on the mend.

GUPTA: Thank you. Yes. You know, she is doing a lot -- but she is walking now. She was in a -- she was in a wheelchair initially, then she was in a walker. Then she used a cane.

Now I see her sort of happily hobbling along, holding my Dad's hand.

WHITFIELD: That's wonderful.

GUPTA: It is really sweet.

WHITFIELD: That's great, and thank you for writing this book to really broaden our horizons and understanding that pain doesn't have to be chronic.

GUPTA: Yes.

WHITFIELD: You know, and it can be managed, but it really means that we all have to be open to innovations, ideas, alternatives.

GUPTA: Yes.

WHITFIELD: You're not necessarily saying it has to be homeopathic when you say alternatives, because I think that's what a lot of people think. But it really is about exploring options.

GUPTA: Yes. Many of which have existed for a long time in our practice in many countries around the world, you know, just -- you know, the United States has a unique disdain for pain. We are all human.

WHITFIELD: Right.

GUPTA: And yet culturally, we think of pain so differently in the United States versus a lot of other countries starting right where we began. I think there's a lot to learn.

WHITFIELD: Oh my goodness. All right, well, it is "It Doesn't Have to Hurt." Thank you so much, and being outside --

GUPTA: What a pleasure.

WHITFIELD: -- it doesn't hurt either, right?

GUPTA: No! This is great! Yes. I feel fantastic.

WHITFIELD: We did pretty good! Plus, you're from Michigan. So this is like no big deal.

GUPTA: Right! Right! It is balmy.

WHITFIELD: It is balmy.

Thank you, Sanjay.

GUPTA: You got it. Thank you.

WHITFIELD: Appreciate it.

GUPTA: Sure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITFIELD: It was like 40 degrees outside, and that was hot cocoa, so there you go.

All right, thanks again to Dr. Sanjay Gupta for sharing his stories. And for more, look for his new book, "It Doesn't Have to Hurt: Your Guide to a Pain Free Life." It is a super guide.

All right, coming up, deleted from the database, why did the Justice Department remove more than a dozen photos from the Epstein files, including at least one image of President Trump? How the administration is explaining the move next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:58:16]

WHITFIELD: All right, let's talk some sports, huh? The Chicago Bears continuing to surprise the league with their wild win. They clawed their way up to a last minute victory over Green Bay last night.

CNN's Don Riddell is here with me.

I didn't see the whole game, but I saw some of it. It was riveting and it looked like it was really cold.

DON RIDDELL, CNN WORLD SPORT HOST: Right. Of course, when you think --

WHITFIELD: It was Chicago.

RIDDELL: -- about the time of year where they were playing.

WHITFIELD: Every day. Right.

RIDDELL: And yes, you didn't have to watch the whole game to get all the drama because it all happened towards the end.

So these two teams are some -- among the, you know, most long standing rivals in American sports. They have been playing each other for more than a hundred years. The Bears were down by 10 with two minutes to go against the Packers, but Caleb Williams led them back with some incredible touchdowns. A superb pass to Jahdae Walker. Then it went to overtime and they won it with a walk off touchdown to DJ Moore.

So the Bears are doing great.

WHITFIELD: They are.

RIDDELL: They are on their way to the NFC North.

The Eagles, remember, reigning Super Bowl Champions.

WHITFIELD: How did it go?

RIDDELL: For the second year running.

WHITFIELD: Okay.

RIDDELL: They are on top of the NFC East. Saquon Barkley having a great game, 132 yards rushing against the Commanders. That was a 12- yard score from him. Of course, at this time of year, football is great, right?

WHITFIELD: It is everywhere.

RIDDELL: You don't often see NFL playing on a Saturday, but at this time of year you do. But really the focus is always on Saturday.

WHITFIELD: College.

RIDDELL: College game.

WHITFIELD: Yes.

RIDDELL: And now we are into the playoffs and it is getting really, really interesting. Historic win here for Miami against Texas A&M. Their first ever playoff win thanks to a late interception from Bryce Fitzgerald.

WHITFIELD: Wow!

RIDDELL: They just edged it. It was a real squeaker.

WHITFIELD: Insane!

RIDDELL: Ten points to three for Miami.

Ole Miss playing for the first time since Lane Kiffin's departure against the Minnows of Tulane. Not much of a contest here, really. Ole Miss winning by 41 points to ten. They will play UGA next in the Sugar Bowl. And a lot of points scored in this one. Oregon smashing James Madison by 51 points to 34. This score and the one with Tulane perhaps enhancing the argument that maybe these group of five teams shouldn't be in the playoffs.

But James Madison, fair play to them. They scored 34 points yesterday.

WHITFIELD: I know. I was surprised to see their name in there.

RIDDELL: Yes. Anyway, this is the quarterfinal bracket. New Year's Eve is Miami-Ohio State, and then three games on New Year's Day. We've got Oregon-Texas Tech in the Orange Bowl; Alabama against the number one seed, Indiana in the Rose Bowl. And Ole Miss against UGA in the Sugar Bowl.

WHITFIELD: So fun! RIDDELL: And remember, Georgia have already played Ole Miss this season and beat them. So let's see if Ole Miss can do anything differently.

WHITFIELD: A lot of excitement.

RIDDELL: Yes.

WHITFIELD: You know, lots of surprises. It has been a lot of fun. Thank you so much and Happy Holidays.

RIDDELL: All right, good to see you. Same to you.

WHITFIELD: I think this is the last time I see you until 2026.

RIDDELL: I guess it will be, but thanks for having me on your show this year. I have enjoyed it.

WHITFIELD: Yes. Well, thank you for being here all the time and, you know, reliably bringing us all the best in sports highlights and then sometimes some philosophical stories, too, and --

RIDDELL: Something a little bit different.

WHITFIELD: -- I like that.

RIDDELL: Yes. We will keep that going next year.

WHITFIELD: All right, Don Riddell, good to see you. Thank you so much.

[16:01:19]