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Australia's "Day of Reflection"; U.S. Seizes Another Tanker; Trump: Land Strikes on Venezuela Happening "Soon"; DOJ Releases Heavily Redacted Epstein Files; Israeli Protesters Call for State Inquiry into October 7 Attacks; U.S.-Russian Talks on Ukraine to Resume Today; U.S. Denies Visas to Honduran Officials; Trump Reclassifies Marijuana. Aired 4-5a ET

Aired December 21, 2025 - 04:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[04:00:00]

KIM BRUNHUBER, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to all of you watching us here in the United States, Canada and around the world. I'm Kim Brunhuber, this is CNN Newsroom.

Australians gather to honor the lives lost in a deadly shooting one week ago. We'll go live to Sydney where a day of reflection is underway. New criticism of American military action in the Caribbean. We'll look at what the White House has to say about the decision to interdict another oil tanker. And a chaotic America fest. Why tensions are flaring at the first Turning Point political action summit following the death of Charlie Kirk.

ANNOUNCER: Live from Atlanta, this is CNN Newsroom with Kim Brunhuber.

BRUNHUBER: Australians are holding a national day of reflection for the 15 victims of the Bondi Beach massacre. It's been one week since two gunmen opened fire on families celebrating the first night of Hanukkah. Crowds marked a moment of silence at the site of the attack and are lighting a menorah to mark the end of Hanukkah. Australian officials are investigating the attack as an act of terror against Jews.

Prime Minister Anthony Albanese says he's ordered a review of the country's security agencies to make sure they're able to protect the public against future threats. I want to go live now to CNN's Angus Watson who is there. Angus, the theme there, light over darkness. So, as the sun sets there, what, give us a sense of what's happening on the scene there.

ANGUS WATSON, CNN PRODUCER: Well, light over darkness, Kim, that's right. That's the spirit of Hanukkah and nothing could explain that better than there being a Hanukkah menorah on top of the bridge behind me where just one week ago, two gunmen pointed their guns on a Hanukkah festival, killing four -- 15 people and injuring 40 others. That's what happened exactly one week ago.

So, at 6:47 today, Australia had a moment of silence across the entire country that was led by Jewish people here at Bondi Beach where they've gathered to try to grieve, to try to process what's happened. Right where I was standing a week ago was a petting zoo where children were playing, a rock-climbing wall where they were playing, a face painting store where they were getting their faces painted. Nothing could be more innocent, Kim, than them celebrating the holiday on the first night of Hanukkah. One week later, we're having it as a memorial service, Kim.

So, the feelings that the Jewish community have here are a deep hurt, grief, but people also here say that they feel scared that the government hasn't done enough to protect them in the two years since Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, 2023.

Now, since then, incidents of antisemitism have skyrocketed in number across Australia. Those have been logged by Jewish groups who point to instances of verbal abuse ranging right through to the burning of synagogues. And now, this massacre. So, antisemitism is something that the government is being called on to stamp out, to eradicate that hate. People here wanting that, people across the entire country wanting that. The government's responded by cracking down, by strengthening its hate crime laws, by also trying to do more to curb gun violence, by limiting, by making those strict gun laws that Australia has even stricter.

And today, Kim, the government has announced that it will review the intelligence organizations with that report being made public in April. What it wants to do is make sure that intelligence services have the powers and the protocols for information sharing between them that they say might keep Australians safer in future.

We know that the two alleged gunmen, they were -- the younger man, Naveed Akram, was on a zero watch list where the security services were aware of him, but deemed him not to be a threat in the lead up to the attack. His father, Sajiv Akram, was allowed to have a gun license. Those guns he used, along with his son, to attack Jews last Sunday on the first night of Hanukkah, Kim.

So, the government wants to do more to crack down on antisemitism, but also to legislate to try to keep Australians safer.

BRUNHUBER: Yes. You mentioned a sense of fear among the people who are there. I mean, you've been talking to folks. I mean, take us through who you've been meeting, why they decided to come there today, what this moment means to them, and whether it's maybe not just Jewish people who are there, but other people who want to support them and perhaps foster a sense of a community coming together.

[04:05:00]

WATSON: That's right, Kim. I talked to an elderly gentleman who said that he survived the Holocaust, that he's from Hungary, and he survived the Second World War, the Holocaust, the horrors of that, and came to Australia for a better life. And now, he's here at Hanukkah time memorializing people that killed Jews in a similar way to the way that the Nazis did, just hating them for nothing other than their religion. I spoke to another young man who was going to thank neighbors who lived down the road for sheltering him during that attack.

So, people here, it's very raw. The emotions that people feel here are extremely raw, and those are coming out as people come to visit the site in which it all happened, and come to lay flowers at the memorial, as they have been doing all week, and come to engage in Hanukkah in the way that they would want to, to an extent, to, in a way, defiantly celebrate their Judaism, that Judaism that the people last week wanted to take away from them along with their lives, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: Yes. And, Angus, I want to drill down a bit on exactly what the government is doing. You mentioned that the government is trying to crack down on guns, but also to crack down on hate, and we heard from the state premier who said that they'll introduce new laws banning hateful symbols, giving police more leeway to crack back on hate, but not just, not speech, but things like removing face coverings and, you know, during demonstrations, things like that. We're hearing sort of very vague phrasing.

Are there fears that they might go too far in terms of cracking down on free speech, in the name of cracking down on hate?

WATSON: There is a concern for that, Kim, that's for sure. Right now, the government said that it wants to crack down on so-called hate preachers, people that have not necessarily called for violence, but have used their podium to denigrate another group within society. The government says that that should be absolutely not allowed.

It wants to look at people as well who have done that overseas and deny them visas if they're trying to come into the country and do what the government said is to divide Australians or foster hate in the community as well. So, there are concerns about the balance between protest, in particular, and free speech, and when that veers into degradation or calls for violence against another community here in Australia. So, that's a very fine line that legislators need to tread, Kim.

But it's something that I think that the Australian government wants. They don't want anybody here to feel in fear. So, I think it's an age- old question in democracy, of course. How do we maintain certain freedoms while making sure that everybody is safe at the same time?

BRUNHUBER: Yes, absolutely right. Really appreciate getting your reporting from the scene, a very poignant moment there, and we're hoping to bring you the moment where they light the menorah maybe later in the hour. In the meantime, CNN's Angus Watson, thank you so much, appreciate that.

Well, for the second time in less than two weeks, the U.S. has seized an oil tanker off the Venezuelan coast. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem posted this video on social media following the seizure Saturday. It shows the U.S. military choppers flying over the Panamanian flagship in international waters. She said the actions, part of U.S. efforts to, quote, pursue the illicit movement of sanctioned oil that is used to fund narco-terrorism.

And President Trump has ordered a blockade of sanctioned oil tankers out of Venezuela. His armed forces boarded the vessel on Saturday. An official said the crew offered no resistance. Also, according to the official, the specific vessel wasn't under U.S. sanctions.

Now, this comes as Venezuela's foreign minister, Ivan Kilo, said he spoke to the Iranian government about the U.S. actions in the region and they offered their cooperation. CNN's Kevin Liptak is traveling with the president and has the latest from West Palm Beach, Florida.

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KEVIN LIPTAK, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The American Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem says that this interdiction of a vessel in international waters off of Venezuela occurred in the pre- dawn hours. I'm told that this was a tanker carrying Venezuelan oil sailing under the Panamanian flag, ultimately destined for Asia.

[04:10:00]

And it comes 10 days after the Trump administration seized another vessel called the Skipper, also carrying Venezuelan oil, as the U.S. works to tighten its grip on the leader, Nicolas Maduro, and as it works to cut off his economic lifeline, the oil industry. President Trump has ordered up a, quote, "total and complete" blockade of sanctioned vessels going in and out of Venezuela.

But I'm told by a U.S. official that the vessel that was seized on Saturday was not, in fact, covered by U.S. sanctions, which I think illustrates the steps and the lengths that the U.S. is trying to go in cutting off this critical financial lifeline. Of course, we have seen a major escalation in the region, whether it's the strikes on those alleged drug boats, 27 strikes so far, 100 people killed. You have also seen a massive military buildup in the region, 15,000 American personnel, and more than a dozen warships, all as President Trump works to mount pressure on Maduro.

Now, President Trump has said that the next steps in this campaign will be U.S. airstrikes on land in Venezuela. He's been saying that those will be coming, quote, "soon," for several weeks now, but he has stopped short of ordering up the final order, which I think speaks to some of the reservations that the president has about potentially engaging in a prolonged conflict, getting mired in a war with Venezuela, which is something that he badly wants to avoid. At the same time, what American officials have said is the overall objective here is to oust Maduro.

And we heard that explicitly from the chief of staff, Susie Wiles, in that interview, which published in Vanity Fair earlier this week. And so, certainly an escalation as the U.S. seizes this tanker, but perhaps not the last incident to occur in the waters off of Venezuela as the pressure campaign continues to mount.

Kevin Liptak, CNN, traveling with the president in West Palm Beach, Florida.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BRUNHUBER: Rough weather is expected for the Pacific Northwest coast as we head into Christmas week. California is in the path of yet another strengthening atmospheric river. Heavy rain, strong winds, and some snow will create dangerous flood conditions and possible power outages. And part of the state could see excessive rainfall today and Monday. Some areas can expect up to 10 inches or 25 centimeters of rain this week. And for the rest of the country, if you're hoping for a white Christmas, well, you're probably out of luck. Temperatures across much of the U.S. are set to run well above average.

All right. We'll be back after a short break here on CNN Newsroom. Please do stay with us.

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[04:15:00]

BRUNHUBER: We're learning more from the Justice Department files on the investigation into late sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. The evidence includes dozens of hard drives, old CDs, and computers. The DOJ admits that it didn't release all of its files, but says more information will be made public in the coming weeks. The documents are heavily and inconsistently redacted. Officials say it's to protect victims, but attorney Gloria Allred, who represents several Epstein survivors, says the system failed them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GLORIA ALLRED, ATTORNEY FOR MULTIPLE EPSTEIN SURVIVORS: First of all, there is a lot of criticism that these files have been overly redacted. But I woke up this morning to understand that, in some cases, they have been under-redacted. And what I mean by that is I saw a number of survivors' names, which should never have been published, because the whole point is to protect these survivors, the victims, in this Transparency Act.

Our legal team has notified the Department of Names that they, we're told, should not be in the files, and yet came up in the files. The other concern I have also has to do with the images of some of the potential victims and survivors, that some of those images were not redacted, should have been redacted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: Many celebrities and high-profile figures appear in the documents, but there are relatively few references to the president. At least one image of him has been removed from the DOJ's website, and some in Congress say the department isn't following the law. Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer posted on social media, quote, "this could be one of the biggest cover-ups in American history."

Turning Point USA, the group founded by late conservative Charlie Kirk, is holding its youth conference in Phoenix, Arizona. The vice president is set to address attendees in the coming hours, but the conference has been marked by simmering tensions and outright conflict amid disagreements on the best way forward. The feuding has threatened to eclipse efforts to honor Kirk, who was assassinated in September. Steve Contorno reports.

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STEVE CONTORNO, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Vice President J.D. Vance will address young conservatives on Sunday at Turning Point USA's annual gathering in Phoenix, Arizona. It comes after a weekend of speakers that have exposed some deep divisions within the MAGA movement on some key issues, such as whether the U.S. should be aligned with Israel, and whether conservatives should engage with people who have espoused conspiracy theories or antisemitic and white nationalist viewpoints.

There have been several speakers who have publicly clashed with each other on the stage and attacked each other, showing just how much division there is in this movement in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk's passing. He, of course, being the charismatic leader of Turning Point, who was killed in September.

Meanwhile, Vance's appearance will also follow Erica Kirk's decision to endorse Vance for president in 2028. Here's what she said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIKA KIRK, CHARLIE KIRK'S WIDOW: We are going to get my husband's friend J.D. Vance elected for 48 in the most resounding way possible.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[04:20:00]

CONTORNO: We had a chance over the weekend to talk with many of the young attendees over whether they would support Vance in the next election cycle, and here's what they said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's the way we should go. Like, if we want to move America forward and to beat Christian nation again, we have to keep the same driving force going forward. And right now, President Trump's assessor is Vice President J.D.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CONTORNO: Vance. Now, I did speak with one young woman who said it was far too soon to engage in 2028 chatter, saying, quote, "we should keep focus on Trump right now."

Steve Contorno, CNN, Phoenix, Arizona.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: And for more on this, I want to bring in Richard Johnson, who's a senior lecturer in U.S. politics at Queen Mary University of London, and he joins us from Oxford, England. Good to see you again.

So, that youth conference was supposed to be about honoring Charlie Kirk's legacy, but what we've actually seen is Ben Shapiro calling Tucker Carlson a fraud, Carlson mocking Shapiro from the same stage a few hours later, Steve Bannon calling Shapiro a cancer. I mean, what does it tell us that the biggest conservative gathering of the year has turned into an internal fight?

RICHARD JOHNSON, SR. LECTURER IN U.S. POLITICS, QUEEN MARY UNIVERSITY OF LONDON: This is fascinating to see for the perspective of what we might call the criminology of Trump world. I think you have to put it in the perspective that Donald Trump's political strength has always come from how bolted on his MAGA base is to him and to his agenda.

And in his first term, whenever he ran into trouble, whether that was with Democrats or, quite frankly, with fellow Republicans, he was able to return back to his MAGA base as a source of support. And materially, that would mean, for example, that he could say to Republicans who challenged him in Congress, look, if you don't stand by me, then I'm going to support a primary challenger and my MAGA base are going to vote you out.

Now, the question is, is his power to do that starting to fray and fragment, as perhaps is being seen by the Turning Point USA conference divisions? And if that's the case, then that could make it more difficult for President Trump to make Republicans fall in line behind him, either on items of his own legislative agenda, such as they may still remain, or on questions of oversight over his administration, where I expect we'll see more and more discussion in the coming months and years.

BRUNHUBER: All right. So, that's concerning his support in Congress. What about his support among voters? I mean, you study voter behavior. The polls show young people who are the focus of that conference who voted for Trump in 2024 are already less enthusiastic about showing up in the midterm.

So, if you're a Republican strategist, what worries you more, the divisions that we're seeing play out at this conference, or maybe the economic numbers that aren't moving in the party's direction?

JOHNSON: I think in terms of the midterm elections, it'll be the economic story that is the one that will be most costly for the Republicans. And we can see that in terms of, say, the generic ballot, where the Republican versus Democrat generic question for who would you vote for Congress, the Republicans are sliding further and further, and there's really now a very dramatic gap which has opened up.

Now, of course, a lot can change between now and November, but really what the Republicans need to see is really demonstrable improvement in the economy at a time when a lot of economists are quite pessimistic about the situation in the United States with respect to the economy, and people are worried that the United States could be running into greater economic trouble, not seeing that improve.

There's also, I think, from the perspective of divisions, where that would have an impact on the midterm is enthusiasm, and midterms tend to be elections where there is an enthusiasm gap between the party in the White House, which tends to have less enthusiasm, and the party that's outside the White House, because they want to express their frustration with the way the country's going. And I think that that enthusiasm gap is really also very profound, and that's where the Turning Point story comes into this.

BRUNHUBER: Fueling some of the cracks in the party is the Epstein issue. We've seen this Justice Department release the Epstein files, and within 24 hours a photo featuring Trump disappeared from the website. Marjorie Taylor Greene already resigned from Congress in part over Epstein issues. How much do you think that this issue has the potential to fracture the party even further?

JOHNSON: To be honest, I do think that the Epstein issue is often viewed through partisan lenses, and so I think that committed Republican partisans are focusing their attention on the Democrats, of course, Bill Clinton, who's come up in a lot of these images, and that's where their focus will be, where, of course, Democrats and committed Democratic partisans, their focus is on Trump, and also where is Trump, and this story about some of these photos that feature Trump now being removed from the list that's on the DOJ website, of course, feeds into that.

[04:25:00]

Generally speaking, this isn't a good issue for the president, because, of course, he is known to be a supporter of the Epstein case, and he's known to be a supporter of the Epstein case. He is in some pictures. He is -- there was a released missed call from Donald Trump, I think, in the files, for example.

But in terms of smoking gun, I guess there's nothing that's particularly, from what we've seen, smoking gun evidence, and so I think that enables people on different sides of the partisan divide to read into this what they want to read into it. It's good for the president from the perspective of independence, I should say that, and he's taken a real hit among independents since he became president last January.

BRUNHUBER: Certainly an interesting moment for the party. We'll see which way it goes. Richard Johnson, always good to talk to you. Thank you so much.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

BRUNHUBER: Israeli protesters rallied in Tel Aviv on Saturday. Some are demanding a state commission of inquiry to investigate the October 7th attacks. Critics of the government, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is refusing to take any responsibility for how it was handled. Protesters are vowing to continue rallying until the body of the last deceased hostage is returned from Gaza.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERAN LITMAN, PROTESTER: I came to protest against Israeli government. My daughter was murdered in the Nova festival in October 7th. Since nothing was functioned this day and after, and Israel is in a very bad situation, I want the Israeli government to take responsibility to this day and to quit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: The head of the Catholic church in Jerusalem is now in Gaza visiting Catholics days before Christmas. Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzaballa will lead a Christmas mass on Sunday at the only Catholic church in the enclave. That church was damaged earlier this year after becoming a shelter for Gaza's small Christian community amid the war with Israel. The cardinal told parishioners that they will rebuild, adding, quote, "we are rooted here and will remain here.

The U.S. is reportedly pushing for a change in ongoing peace talks on Ukraine, one that would include face-to-face meetings between both sides in the brutal war. We'll have that story ahead. Stay with us.

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[04:30:00]

BRUNHUBER: Welcome back to all of you watching us here in the United States, Canada, and around the world. I'm Kim Brunhuber. This is CNN Newsroom.

Talks between the U.S. and Russia on stopping the war in Ukraine will continue today. That's from Russia's senior negotiator Kirill Dmitriev, who met with his U.S. counterparts in Miami on Saturday. He made a brief statement after the meeting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIRILL DMITRIEV, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT'S SPECIAL ENVOY (through translator): The discussions are constructive. They began and continued today and will also continue tomorrow. Thank you very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: Well, Ukraine's president says Washington is proposing a new negotiating format. It would include face-to-face meetings among the U.S., Ukraine, Russia, and probably the Europeans. He says Kyiv will decide on that after analyzing its latest talks with the U.S.

Barbie Latza Nadeau is keeping an eye on those developments. She joins us from Rome. Barbie, walk us through the talks so far.

BARBIE LATZA NADEAU, CNN REPORTER: Yes. You know, I mean, there really isn't a lot of detail in terms of what's being discussed in the room. This is between Steve Witkoff, Jared Kushner, Trump's son-in- law, and the Russian negotiator. They say things are constructive. But probably what's most important is who's not in that room, and that is Ukrainian representatives and European representatives. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy is watching closely for any details. Let's listen to what he had to say about these talks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Peace is better than war, but not at any price, because we've already paid a high price. For us, it is important that peace is fair and strong, so that it cannot be violated by another desire of Putin or by another Putin.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NADEAU: And, you know, Kim, when you listen to that, there is concern about what sort of negotiation is happening and what that outcome might be. Now, these talks are based on that 20-point plan that President Trump put forward earlier this year, which has been sort of, you know, edited and reworked a little bit. And so, you know, it continues to go. We've been close to peace talks before, and we'll just have to wait and see what comes out of this, if anything, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: Yes, that's right. And looking ahead, I mean, they were, you know, talking about a trilateral meeting, you know, the U.S., Russia, Ukraine. So, from a European perspective, I mean, what role do you think they're expected to play, if any, in these face-to-face negotiations, if indeed they do happen?

NADEAU: Yes. You know, I mean, there were talks between Ukrainian leaders and European leaders on Friday. Now, whether or not any of the results of those talks enter into these negotiations, here in Europe, of course, it's incredibly important what happens next. Europe is very much on the front line, especially Poland, when we've seen some incursions into airspace and things like that.

So, whatever happens in Ukraine has ramifications here across Europe. And there are a lot of European countries that don't agree necessarily on what the approach should be and how much money they should continue to spend and how that affects the greater European fabric of these countries that are working together. You know, lots of Ukrainian refugees still among the European countries. There's just a lot to work out. And Europe, I think, feels on many levels that they're being left out of negotiations that very much should involve them as well as Ukraine, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: All right. Appreciate that. Barbie Latza Nadeau, thanks so much.

Tensions in Honduras are reaching a fever pitch following a chaotic and still unresolved presidential election. On Friday, the U.S. State Department announced it had denied the visa application from a member of the Honduran National Electoral Council. Secretary of State Marco Rubio also revoked the visa of the head of Honduras' electoral court. The decision comes as Honduras' presidential election results are in limbo nearly three weeks after election day. The elections have been mired by faulty vote counting, as well as allegations of fraud and U.S. intervention. As one Honduran resident puts it, morale is at an all-time low. Listen to this.

[04:35:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANIA MEJIA, RESIDENT (through translator): As Hondurans, I think we all feel extremely devalued. I feel that our dignity is at rock bottom because a foreign government is ordering us what to do and threatening us. The terrible thing is that nobody says anything, neither officials nor business people, but instead they accept it and bow their heads.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: President Trump's executive order on marijuana opens the door to medical research on the drug. When we come back, I'll speak with an addiction psychiatrist on the risks and rewards of reclassifying the drug. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BRUNHUBER: President Trump's executive order to downgrade marijuana from a Schedule 1 drug to a Schedule 3 drug will make it far easier to conduct medical research. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We have people begging for me to do this. People that are in great pain. This reclassification order will make it far easier to conduct marijuana-related medical research, allowing us to study benefits, potential dangers, and future treatments. I promised to be the president of common sense, and that is exactly what we're doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BRUNHUBER: Schedule 1 drugs don't have any acceptable medical use and include drugs like heroin, LSD, and ecstasy. Schedule 3 is something like Tylenol drugs, which have a moderate to low potential for addiction. The order doesn't include a timeline and doesn't federally legalize marijuana. Members of Trump's party are pushing back on the move. Meanwhile, Democrats remain cautiously optimistic.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CYNTHIA LUMMIS (R-WY): Yes, I quite frankly just disagree with the president on this one. My state has neither recreational nor a medical marijuana, and quite frankly, I like it that way.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): I've generally been in favor of care and caution when it comes to marijuana use, but we need to be realistic about states like Connecticut that have largely legalized it, and I think that the rescheduling would probably be a realistic step toward recognizing what the state of the law is in the States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[04:40:00]

BRUNHUBER: For more on this I'm joined now by Dr. Kevin Hill, Associate Professor of Psychiatry at Harvard School of Medicine and joins us live from Philadelphia. Thanks so much for making the time for us this morning. So, we heard the president there say it's all about research. Can you walk us through what actually changes when marijuana moves from Schedule 1 to Schedule 3?

DR. KEVIN HILL, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY, HARVARD MEDICAL SCHOOL: Sure. So, this is a positive step but a small step. So, by definition Schedule 1 means that a substance has abuse potential. Cannabis definitely has abuse potential but as you mentioned before, a Schedule 1 substance also has no acceptable medical value and I think we've gotten to a point where we understand that there are some legitimate medical purposes for cannabis.

And so, Schedule 1 substances studying those involves some procedural hurdles so removing those hurdles does make it easier to study.

BRUNHUBER: All right. So, you say some legitimate medical uses. You published a major study in JAMA that found the evidence for medical cannabis is actually pretty limited for most conditions. Now, many people pushed back and said well that's because it's been so hard to study so now that it's getting rescheduled are we finally going to get those answers?

DR. HILL: We might. So, they're correct. It has been hard to study because of the Schedule 1 status, but I maintain that the real barrier to the research has been the lack of funding. So, there's no shortage of talented researchers in our country and other countries but funding is hard to come by and unfortunately a lot of the stakeholders that have been profiting from cannabis like states that are tax revenues and companies that are profiting from selling cannabis products to this point they really have not contributed in a substantial way to the research. So, now, the onus is on them.

BRUNHUBER: The president talked about, you know, veterans and senior people with chronic pain and how this could be an alternative to opioids which have proven so potentially deadly. From what you've seen in research does the evidence actually support that?

DR. HILL: The evidence for the treatment of chronic pain is limited, Kim, but I would say this I treat patients with chronic pain in my practice every day, and I do think of cannabis and cannabinoids like CBD as potential third-line treatment. So, many people who are proponents of cannabis say that it's a first-line treatment. The evidence really doesn't support that.

There's limited evidence supporting the use of cannabis and cannabinoids for the treatment of chronic pain but if someone has worked with their doctor in a collaborative way and they've exhausted first and second line treatments then I think it's worth having that discussion. So, that's what I do and I'd be willing to typically prescribe an FDA-approved cannabinoid like dronabinol if someone has chronic pain in such a situation.

BRUNHUBER: The flip side, your research found that nearly a third of people who use medical marijuana end up developing cannabis use disorder. Is that something that gets kind of lost in all of the excitement about rescheduling? Explain what that is and how serious it can be.

DR. HILL: So, cannabis use disorder means cannabis addiction. So, repeated use despite harm. And I think one of the most alarming things that we've seen in this field in the past five years or so is that with the rising potency, average THC, delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol, the active ingredient in cannabis, average THC content is now about 20 percent in typical flower that you can buy where it used to be 3 or 4 percent. So, the potency has risen. And with that has the addictive potential of cannabis.

So, now, we're seeing about a third of adult users developing a cannabis use disorder or cannabis addiction if they're using cannabis and surprisingly, we found that those that are using for medical purposes, almost a third of those folks to about 29 percent develop a cannabis use disorder. So, as you said a lot of people are touting the potential benefits of cannabis. What we have to keep in mind that there are significant risks associated with its use as well.

BRUNHUBER: All right. So, some dangers. But overall, you started this off by saying it is overall positive. What is the number one thing that if you were to, you know, allocate research money to finding out, what is the study that you would want to conduct right now?

DR. HILL: Well, I think that we do need better evidence to support the use of cannabis for chronic pain. As we -- as you said, it's probably number one reason that many people use it. And I will -- do want to say, there are some very promising studies that have been published recently, a couple out of Germany for example, but we don't have definitive evidence. And that is why when folks like us look at the totality of the evidence, it's limited at this point.

So, we need better more rigorous science on cannabis and pain and then other medical indications as well. So, the president making this step, it's a small step, but it's a very positive one and it makes folks like me encouraged about the future of cannabis research.

[04:45:00]

BRUNHUBER: This topic has so many people interested in it has so many repercussions for health and elsewhere. Dr. Kevin Hill, really appreciate getting your expertise on this thank you so much.

DR. HILL: Thanks for having me, Kim. Appreciate it.

BRUNHUBER: All right. And we'll be right back here on CNN newsroom please do stay with us.

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BRUNHUBER: I want to take you back to Sydney, Australia. Australians are holding a National Day of Reflection for the 15 victims of the Bondi Beach Massacre. CNN's Angus Watson joins me live from Sydney. Angus, as I understand it, they're about to introduce the people who are going to light the menorah. Take us through the significance of what you're seeing there.

WATSON: There has been a hugely significant feeling of patriotism, I would say, among the crowd here today, Kim. It's really heartening to see the way that the entire country has wrapped itself around the Jewish community here and the national anthem and also the Australian song "Waltzing Matilda" being played to an extremely emotional crowd.

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Now, of course, the young girl who was killed on Sunday evening here at this park was named Matilda. She was just 10 years old. She suffered a gunshot wound here as men at the bridge behind me -- excuse me -- began firing into this Hanukkah festival. They shot her and she died of her wounds later in hospital that day. Her parents are here at this event and the crowd sung along with the words of "Waltzing Matilda," a patriotic Australian song, which really underscored this feeling that the Jewish community are important, a crucial member of the wider Australian community that's coming around them on this National Day of Reflection, Kim.

This is the biggest memorial service. The prime minister is here. Many other dignitaries are here and Jewish leaders are here, but there are smaller memorial services going on throughout the city and around the country tonight, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: Let's just take a pause because we saw some first responders lighting the candle there of the menorah and clearly an emotional moment for them as they're being hugged by many people on stage there. Tell me about the emotions that are coursing through the crowd there as they're watching these poignant moments of reflection and the menorah lighting.

WATSON: There's so many different complicated emotions at work here, Kim. Of course, the first one is grief. It's suffering at the loss of 15 innocent people here, the injuries to 40 other people here, just celebrating the first night of Hanukkah as they were last Sunday.

There's also anger. Anger not just at the perpetrators of this horrific violent terror attack, but anger at the government that people feel didn't do enough to protect Jewish Australians over the past two years. Jewish groups have noted a rise in antisemitic attacks since October 7, 2023, when Hamas attacked Israel.

They accuse the government of not doing enough about that. And actually, as the Prime Minister Anthony Albanese came through the event here, he was booed, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: Angus, we're going to just listen in and hear what they're saying on the crowd as they're lighting the menorah. Let's listen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They spent hours triaging and treating the many injured and the Commissioner and Chief Executive of New South Wales Ambulance, Dr. Dominic Morgan ASM.

BRUNHUBER: Another poignant moment as we see more emergency responders lighting those candles. You've been speaking to people in the crowd there. Tell me some of the stories of those who came and what this means to them.

WATSON: Kim, I talked to one elderly gentleman here earlier who was from Hungary and he survived the Holocaust here. He survived the Second World War and the horrors that were inflicted on the Jewish people by Nazi Germany and he told me that he'd now come to Australia for a better life, but instead, at his elderly age, he is forced to come to a Hanukkah memorial as opposed to a for the victims of gunmen who were perpetrating hate and violence in the same way that Nazis did in the Second World War. Just this desire to kill Jewish people, Kim.

I spoke to another young man who was on his way to thank a neighbor. He was heading out of Bondi to a neighboring suburb to go there to thank the person who took him in, who took a group of people in to shelter them when this terrorist attack was ongoing, Kim.

So, we have this feeling of grief, of anger, but also of uncertainty, I would say, that many Jewish people here feel as to where they stand, how their -- where their security is going to come from, Kim. You know, on all the tall buildings -- on all the taller buildings around me, there are tactical units with sniper rifles trying to keep this community safe as they go through this grieving memorial process.

BRUNHUBER: Angus, let me just jump in because we're seeing a poignant moment here as the candle is lit in memory of the victims themselves and we can feel the emotion there on the stage as those people lit the candle. We could see all of the -- just the heartbreak and suffering playing out as we're watching this.

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I just wanted to -- and I just wanted to let, you know, I'm being told that one of the parents of one of the victims is now lighting one of the candles. Let's pause here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We welcome Nachman Dickstein (ph) and Mendi Amzalak (ph) from Zakar, who travelled with the team from Israel to assist in the painstaking and sacred work of processing the scene, ensuring dignity, respect and compassion for the victims and their families. They are joined by David Tobb from the Sydney Chevra Kadisha. The organization worked tirelessly to facilitate funerals for the victims under tragic circumstances. We invite them to light the seventh candle.

The flame of the final candle will be lit by Michael, father of the youngest victim, Matilda Bee. We express our deepest sorrow for his unimaginable loss. Matilda, her beautiful smile and shining face will remain forever in our hearts. He is joined by David Super, whose son Yanky Super, despite being injured in the Bondi terror attack, showed extraordinary courage by helping others and assisting those around him in the midst of the chaos.

BRUNHUBER: Angus, let me bring you back in here as we just saw those very poignant moments of the father of Matilda, the youngest victim, lighting the candle. Just take us through the emotions and what we know about her and the family as they're going through this moment right now.

WATSON: The community here in Bondi has come to know Matilda as Matilda Bee. That B symbol has come to represent this young girl. It was her middle name and it's also a symbol of her innocence, the family said. So, people have been using that B image to remember this young lady who was here with her family, including her younger sister, on that tragic night last Sunday when she ultimately lost her life. She went to a petting zoo. She had her face painted with a dolphin on her face there, enjoying the first night of Hanukkah among her family and among her friends.

The outpouring of grief for her has been poignant all week, Kim. We've seen her family members pass around images of a B, lay flowers, lay toys for her as they remember a life cut short in the most shocking episode of violence, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: Yes. And we also heard an ode there to some of the people who helped, people like Ahmed al Ahmed, who's being honored as we've talked about. Take me through that as we sort of talk about this, the heartbreaking stories, also heartwarming stories of those who helped those in need.

WATSON: That's right. Ahmed al Ahmed has been lauded as an Australian hero, Kim. He's the son of Syrian refugees who -- a 43-year-old father himself, who put his life on the line in order to try to defend the community here. He, right behind me, right where I am, confronted a gunman, tackled him, stripped him of that weapon and then turned the gun on him to try to defend the people around him. He's still in hospital, but his father has been here at this memorial service, getting a huge round of applause, someone who's been held up as a hero and someone who really showed the best of humanity in a horrific moment, Kim.

BRUNHUBER: The theme of this evening is light over darkness, and from watching this, we certainly hope that a scene of hate can become one of healing. Angus Watson, thank you so much for your reporter there in Sydney. And thank you all you for watching us here on CNN Newsroom. We have more news coming now. Stay with us.

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