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Iranian President Dead in Helicopter Crash; Lanny Davis is Interviewed about Cohen's Testimony; Joel Rubin is Interviewed about the Iranian President's Death; ICC Seeks Arrest Warrants. Aired 6:30- 7a ET

Aired May 20, 2024 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[06:31:31]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. Breaking news out of Iran overnight. That nation's president, Ebrahim Raisi, reported dead after his helicopter crashed in a remote area. Iran's foreign minister and other government officials were also on board. They had an attended - they had attended an event near the border with Azerbaijan.

CNN White House correspondent Arlette Saenz joins me now, live from the White House.

Arlette, good morning to you.

What are we hearing from the White House at this hour?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Kasie, the White House really has not said much since the first reports of the crash relating to the Iranian president, Raisi, emerged yesterday afternoon. And they have yet to respond to the fact that it was confirmed that he was killed in that crash.

All we know at this point is that President Biden had been briefed on the reports of the crash yesterday afternoon as he was traveling from Atlanta to Detroit. But beyond that, the U.S., the White House, the State Department hasn't put out any type of comments, but they have been watching all of these reports incredibly closely and likely will be very careful in the type of language they will use.

One thing that the White House and U.S. officials will also be watching closely is what will happen now. What - who might emerge as his successor at a time when the region has been destabilized amid that conflict between Israel and Hamas.

Now, the U.S. has no diplomatic relations with Iran, but there have been private backchannel talks in the - in the past. There have been indirect talks when it related to trying to revive the nuclear deal between the U.S. and Iran. There have been backchannel talks in regards to some of the Iranian-backed proxies that have destabilized parts of the region. But we will be waiting to see what exactly the White House has to say going forward. And they will be keeping a very close eye on who might be announced as Raisi's successor in the coming days, weeks, whenever that might happen.

HUNT: All right, Arlette Saenz for us at the White House.

Also worth noting that the Senate majority leader, a member of the Gang of Eight, said yesterday he spoke to intelligence authorities and said there was no evidence of foul play. So, for whatever that is worth.

Arlette, thanks very much for that report. I really appreciate it.

All right, now this. Today, Michael Cohen returns to the witness stand for more cross-examination in Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial. Last week the defense hammered Cohen over inconsistencies in his testimony, but courtroom theatrical may have overshadowed what our next guest insists is the smoking gun. Here you can see two documents, including handwritten notes, outlining money that Trump owed Cohen. Cohen says part of that payment is reimbursement for the hush money payment to Stormy Daniels.

And joining us now is Cohen's former attorney, Lanny Davis, who sits with our panel.

Lanny, good morning. Wonderful to have you here.

LANNY DAVIS, MICHAEL COHEN'S FORMER ATTORNEY: Good morning.

HUNT: This document does seem to be at the center of things, but we do know that your former client, I mean he had - he had a tough day on the stand on Thursday. Some real significant questions raised about whether he actually had lied to the jury.

What is the prosecution, do you think they need to do next, to try to adjust some of this?

DAVIS: Not a thing. Documents speak for themselves. And in this particular case, the key issue that the jury will have to decide - I'll respect whatever verdict they come up with, hope Mr. Trump does the same - is whether or not Donald Trump reimbursed - keyword that you used -

HUNT: Yes, reimburse versus -

DAVIS: Reimbursed versus paid legal fees when he wrote checks from the Oval Office, as a sitting president, of $35,000 per month to Michael Cohen. Most of them from his personal checking account. If they were reimbursements, that is a crime to reimburse for a crime that Michael Cohen did the time for.

[06:35:02]

A crime of contributing money to somebody to stay silent right before an election for political reasons. So, if it's a reimbursement, that would be a crime.

Mr. Allen Weisselberg, the CFO closest to Donald Trump, not testifying, wrote on a piece of paper the number $130,000 times two so that the income taxes would make Michael Cohen whole.

HUNT: Right.

DAVIS: And had the number 130 times two is 260. He added up two other numbers that were owed to Michael Cohen for a total of $210,000, multiplied by two, divided by 12 months, equals $35,000. There's no way those were legal fees. Those numbers are corroborated by other witnesses as to why he was paid.

HUNT: Yes.

DAVIS: And we have Allen Weisselberg speaking with authenticated handwriting. And we don't need Michael Cohen's testimony.

HUNT: Well, but what about this phone call? I mean, did he lie to the - did Michael Cohen lie to the jury about the phone call where he said that he told Donald Trump about Stormy Daniels, but actually the text messages show that he was concerned about a pranking teenager.

DAVIS: Well, first of all, the phone call has nothing to do with the document that says Donald Trump did an illegal act -

HUNT: But it is very relevant to whether or not Donald Trump knew.

DAVIS: It's -

HUNT: Because right now we're talking about Allen Weisselberg and other people.

DAVIS: It's - it - it is not relevant to the document that speaks for itself. I just gave you the math and they're not legal fees.

HUNT: Right, but, again, I mean this is - this is Allen Weisselberg. Don't we - do we not have to show that Donald Trump knew about all of this for him to be the one that's on the hook for it?

DAVIS: Allen Weisselberg is close to Donald Trump. The jury's going to have to infer that Donald Trump knew about that document. But we know that he wrote $35,000 a month checks, 12 checks.

HUNT: OK.

DAVIS: If he claims they will legal fees, that's a problem.

But let me address your credibility issue.

HUNT: Briefly. We're going to have to go here.

DAVIS: Michael Cohen saying that he didn't remember one phone call, but he did remember a frequent that I know he did is to ask Keith Schiller to hand Trump the phone when he wanted to talk to Trump. That is confirmed.

HUNT: Sure.

DAVIS: So, the two things may show that he forgot. I'm not sure the word "lie" is justified.

HUNT: All right. Fair enough.

Well, Lanny, I'm sure you and I are going to be spending a lot of time together this week covering this.

DAVIS: Thank you, Kasie.

HUNT: I really appreciate you getting up early to be with us.

DAVIS: Thank you.

HUNT: All right, up next, we're going to continue to follow the breaking news out of Iran, where that nations president has been confirmed dead after a helicopter crash.

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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

HUNT: All right, welcome back to CNN THIS MORNING. We are following breaking news out of Iran as that country's president, Ebrahim Raisi, has been pronounced dead in the wake of a helicopter crash that also killed the Iranian foreign minister.

Our panel is back with us. We are also joined by Joel Rubin, former deputy assistant secretary of state in the Obama administration. Did I get that right?

JOEL RUBIN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION: That's right. Yes.

HUNT: Thank you very much for being here.

Let's talk about this in the context of a region that has been absolutely fraught with tension, including a hot war between Iran and Israel that, of course, the U.S. was also involved in helping Israel defend itself from.

[06:40:03]

As you watch events unfolding, I do think it's significant and noteworthy that what we're hearing from Iranian state media right now is that this was a crash that was caused by the weather. There have been lots of questions by our national security experts we've had on this morning about whether there would have been something else to that. They point to that as remarkable and noteworthy.

What's your view?

RUBIN: Yes, Kasie, look, buyer be - I've got to beware any conspiracy theories that are being put out there right now. And I'm glad that we hear that statement coming from Iran that this was whether alone. And there's enough conspiracy theory in the Middle East.

When I think about Raisi, I think about domestic repression and foreign aggression. What he has done over the last several years is radicalized Iran's leadership to a level that we have not experienced, partnering with Russia against Ukraine, being the leader of Iran when the Hamas attacks occurred on October 7th, a couple of years ago essentially leading the most - deadly (ph) -

HUNT: Joel, let me - let me pause you for one second.

RUBIN: Yes, go ahead.

HUNT: I'm so sorry. Because we do actually have some breaking news that's coming from our Christiane Amanpour, who joins us now, to fill us in on where she is, why she's there, and what we're learning here at CNN.

Christiane.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, I'm here at the ICC and I have just had an exclusive interview with the ICC prosecutor, Karim Khan, where he has announced the ICC is seeking arrest warrants in relation to the October 7th attacks in Israel and the Gaza War. He is seeking arrest warrants for the top three Hamas leaders, Yahya Sinwar, Mohammed al-Masri but better known as Mohammed Deif, and Ismail Haniyeh. There are two which are the heads of the military wing of Hamas, and one is the political wing.

In addition, because of events in Gaza since after October 7th, he is seeking arrest warrants for the prime minister of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu, and indeed the Israeli defense minister, Yoav Gallant.

Here is what he told me, and then I will explain the charges.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: We're here at the ICC. You are today announcing that you are applying for arrest warrants for top military and political leadership in the Israel-Gaza Was since the October 7th events.

First and foremost, explain to me exactly what you're asking for and who you are charging.

KARIM KHAN, CHIEF PROSECUTOR, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT: Today, Christiane, we've applied for warrants to the pre-trial chamber of the International Criminal Court in relation to three individuals that are Hamas members Sinwar, who's in charge on the ground -

AMANPOUR: That's Yahya Sinwar.

KHAN: Absolutely. Deif, who's in charge of the al-Qassam Brigade. And Haniyeh, who's one of their political bureau based in Doha.

AMANPOUR: What are the charges?

KHAN: The charges are extermination, murder, taking of hostages, rape and sexual assault in detention. So, these are the - the key crimes that are alleged to have been committed by these three individuals. The world was shocked on the 7th of October when people were ripped

from their bedrooms, from their homes, from the different kibbutzim in Israel. And people have suffered enormously. And we have a variety of evidence to support the applications that we've submitted to the judges.

AMANPOUR: You have also issued warrants against the top political and military leadership of the government of the state of Israel.

KHAN: We've applied for warrants. Of course, the judges must determine whether or not to issue them. But we've applied today. We'll apply for warrants for Prime Minister Netanyahu and also Minister of Defense Gallant for crimes of - causing - extermination, causing starvation as a method of war, including the denial of humanitarian relief supplies, deliberately targeting civilians in - in conflict.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So, this is an incredibly important moment in this ongoing war.

And the prosecutor, Karim Khan, insisted that this is because of evidence. He said that what we have done is sort these arrest warrants on these charges and our level of - of evidence has been, we have reasonable grounds to believe that there will be convictions based on this evidence, not anything lower than that. So, I thought that that was really important to be able to bring up to you.

[06:45:00]

In addition, when it comes to the Israeli state, the state of Israel, which is a democracy, I asked him why - why - this is the first time the ICC has ever sought indictments and arrest warrants in a democracy. And I said, well, they have a judiciary, an independent democracy. Why can't they do it? And he said, if, in fact, they decide to take over and they decide to actually - the judicial system itself there decides that it wants to take this ahead, well then it can. But so far, and he pointed out that he's been warning Israel and, in fact, the international community about the lack of humanitarian aid, about the starvation and the famine that have been reported by not only U.S. officials, but also many international aid officials.

He said, and this is a paraphrase of a quote, I have been telling you this for months. If you don't do something, don't complain when my office takes action.

So, in - I - in the issue of whether or not they're going to be able to actually issue arrest warrants, well, they will if they get permission from there trial judges, that is the next process. And in - in - in the fact that neither Israel nor the United States, nor other countries, some are actually parties to the ICC, the actual practicality of getting those arrests anytime soon is obviously something probably more in the distance. But it does, he said, put everybody on guard around the world that, in his words, nobody is above the law. This is not political, this is not ethnic, this is merely applying the law according to our mandate, the ICC. Kasie.

HUNT: Christiane, can I ask what are the implications, if they do get these warrants, for travel for the prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, and other Israeli officials, and also, are they, at the ICC, assessing the ramifications of this for them politically considering the level of backlash this is going to receive from officials here in the United States?

AMANPOUR: Let me address that question first. As you know, and I put it to him, there was a letter signed to the ICC - when these reports first started to surface weeks ago by several Republican senators, who essentially told the ICC and Karim Khan personally, and I'm paraphrasing again, if you go ahead with this, we will sanction you. We will make sure that none of this can be carried out. And he took it as a threat to the mission and to the mandate. That's one issue. But he said, nonetheless, we cannot be bound by those kinds of political statements. We are - we have an international mandate that means when whatever country it be, whether it's, you know, against Putin in Russia, whether it's in many of the other countries that they look at, this is about evidence, this is about applying the law equally.

Now, in terms of travel, as you know, and we can use Putin as the example, because he, as well as his hunch woman, were indicted months ago by the ICC in relation principally to the illegal abduction of Ukrainian children. Now, Putin, also, Russia is not a member of the ICC. Nonetheless, he, for instance, chose not to travel to a big meeting in South Africa in the last few months because it might have been the case that he might have been arrested because South Africa is party to the ICC.

So, the individuals could travel in terms of places where the ICC does not have jurisdiction, but it would probably not be wise, according to the ICC, for them to travel places where the ICC does have jurisdiction. And some analysts have also said that this comes at a - I mean predicting that something like this might happen at some point. It comes at a time when this war is in a really, you know, very, very heightened stage, when there's a potential, you know, attack further invasion into Rafah while the hostages, the Israeli hostages, still have not been released, and for that they have indicted Hamas on the hostages as well. That this is also something that had to happen right now because it's been going on for seven months.

Kasie.

HUNT: All right, our Christiane Amanpour with that exclusive for us.

Christiane, very grateful to have your reporting. Thank you very much.

All right, CNN's Stephen Collinson back with me, and Joel Rubin is here as well.

Joel, can I just start with you. You worked in the Obama State Department.

This is going to ripple through our politics today in a major way. What is your initial reaction?

RUBIN: That this is a travesty of justice. The equating of Hamas terrorists with the elected leader of a sovereign government, a democratic state, is just such a profound inversion of the principle of justice. There is no doubt that the war in Gaza, that Israel is conducting, is fierce, difficult, and painful and harming Palestinian civilians.

[06:50:08]

But the idea that somehow that is equal to an unprovoked terrorist assault led by Hamas and Yahya Sinwar, the leader here who's named, that unprovoked attack somehow is equal now - the Israeli response equal now to that in the eyes of the international court of justice, and now any terrorist state knows that it can take down the sovereign state's leader if it conducts an attack, it just boggles the mind and it shreds the U.N.'s credibility.

HUNT: Stephen Collinson, what do you see in this, big picture? Obviously, there are a lot of people here in the United States who are concerned about the humanitarian crisis that is unfolding in Gaza. The president has been grappling with protests over that. But to Joel's point, I mean, this is a pretty remarkable step that, you know, it says Hamas and Israeli leaders right now in our chyron.

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Well, it's extraordinary and it's going to have massive international implications. The thing I think of most immediately is how this impacts into the politics in Israel, how it is likely to make Prime Minister Netanyahu feel even more that he's going this alone if he has to. That may cause him to take an even more hard line on this issue in Rafah. And that all rebounds back to the United States and it sharpens this very difficult political position that the president is in because critics of Netanyahu in the U.S. will see this as vindication for their criticisms of the - the operation into - into Gaza. And I just wonder how this will go down among the president's political, you know, advisors, as we head into the critical point of a campaign where this is going to be a big issue.

HUNT: Yes, I mean, Joel, how do you see the likely response from the Biden administration on this because, I mean, we know that Senator Tom Cotton, for example, has already put out a letter in anticipation of this saying, essentially, that he is going to make it impossible for ICC officials to even operate in the U.S. Basically try to use a powers to do that. What - what are - what - what do you expect in terms of a response from the Biden team on this?

RUBIN: Well, the ICC is an entity we've always had a difficult relationship with, the United States. And I think that President Biden, he's going to point to the reality, which is that Hamas started this - this war, this conflict, and that he is working - President Biden that is, is working to end it. And working with the Israeli leadership and the prime minister on a plan for the day after and what would that look like and all of those points he will continue to reiterate. But I think he's going to point out the big picture that this is - this is not appropriate. That we do not compare sovereign states directly in courts of law and their leaders, their elected leaders, to the heads of terrorist organizations. And I think he'll stand firm on that principle.

HUNT: Yes.

Karen Finney is with us as well.

I mean, Karen, this is obviously something that the Biden team has had to grapple with. Do you think Joel is right?

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I do. Although I think this is a prime example of how different it is, what you may do politically and what you may need to say politically is so very different than what you may - what you need to do diplomatically. And this exerts so much more pressure on the president, given this dynamic, the dynamic with Republicans in Congress. You had Elise Stefanik, over the weekend, congresswoman, in Israel criticizing President Biden.

And I think in the context, as we were speaking about this earlier this morning, with what's just happened in Iran. So, it's just a huge stew of, I would say, international chaos in many ways and yet how you handle that from a diplomatic and a national security framework is not necessarily going to be what he will need to do and say politically.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: And just from a practical standpoint, what happens when you have a stateless entity that is in a region that the ICC claims to have jurisdiction over, which is Palestine, Gaza, I believe West Bank - Joel, you can correct me on this - but not Israel, which - which is not a member of the ICC.

So, how do you - how does the ICC even have teeth to go after Israeli leadership and, you know, these stateless bodies that - it's just - what I mean is it's a legal gray area in this space of international law. If it might have just been a public statement from the ICC to step in and say, we are doing something about these two entities that we are equating with each other. But as a practical matter, nothing, I think, really happens in terms of sanctions on anybody, right?

HUNT: Right.

RUBIN: We -

HUNT: Yes, go ahead.

RUBIN: Yes, I mean, to me it comes off like a premeditated political punishment -

WILLIAMS: Yes.

RUBIN: Of the Israeli leadership that apparently they were thinking about this for months and warning for months. That's not a legal operation, that's a political operation. It's unfortunate. It pains me to say that because as someone who believes in international cooperation, multilateralism, the United Nations, we need to have credible institutions there that do uphold the rule of law.

[06:55:03]

And this idea that - what, is now the ICC going to go in and go into Gaza and find Sinwar and arrest him and bring him to trial? That's nonsense. And so it's ultimately in the practical world going to make it much harder for the Israeli leadership to execute their duties as sovereign heads of state of a democratic country. It's going to make it much harder for them. It's not going to have any real impact on Hamas.

HUNT: Stephen, we've seen the travails - and you mentioned kind of what goes - what's going on inside Israel right now. I mean Netanyahu kind of had a setback potentially over the weekend with Benny Gantz, a part of his coalition government, coming out and saying that he's - you know, if he doesn't change course, he's going to leave.

Then, of course, you had some comments also from Yoav Gallant, the defense minister, who we hear is also one of these people here.

What impact does this have in terms of -- I mean it strikes me that it might actually strengthen Netanyahu's hand inside Israel. What's your view of how we should be interpreting that?

COLLINSON: Right. I think it's going to be very difficult now for Ganz to come out and follow up his statement that he might leave, which has, you know, has been bubbling up for a long time and it's been expected. We've seen these tensions inside the coalition. A very right-wing coalition that Netanyahu is reliant on very right-wing parties that are also forcing his hand.

But just domestically, politically, when the prime minister is perceived as under attack from the outside, it's going to be very difficult for - for that to kind of - that - that fracturing of the cabinet from Gallant's point of view to take place.

HUNT: Yes, I mean, Joel, you're very familiar with the internal politics of Israel. How do you look at this question?

RUBIN: Yes, I concur completely. Look, we were just seeing a bit of a -- a tipping point now in Israeli politics where the senior leaders of the war cabinet were opposing Prime Minister Netanyahu's recent decisions related to a ceasefire for a hostage deal. His day after planning. They're going to now pull back because they're going to be seen as essentially throwing Netanyahu to the wolves. And they themselves can end up following him there. And I think it makes it harder now for them to raise significant opposition domestically and Prime Minister Netanyahu, to Stephen's point, look, he's playing to his right-wing base. He needs to keep his coalition intact. And he has some very firm - this will only strengthen his hand domestically.

HUNT: I mean we shouldn't lose sight of the fact too that, I mean, Netanyahu has legal problems of his own in Israel, right?

RUBIN: Absolutely.

FINNEY: Yes.

HUNT: Which is part of why he wants to remain in power there.

RUBIN: It's why he's - exactly. And in many ways he has continued to keep himself immune from that prosecution because of this - this governing coalition.

HUNT: You know, Karen, the relationship between Biden and Netanyahu we know has actually been pretty fraught.

FINNEY: Yes.

HUNT: And it was one that he tried to keep pretty behind the scenes in the beginning, but has since been more public and - in pushing back against some of what Netanyahu has done here.

How do you expect him to balance a response to this with that relationship that he has with Netanyahu?

FINNEY: Well, I think it certainly puts pressure on him, as we were just saying, it puts him more - Netanyahu more in a corner. And I think, therefore, demands some kind of a comment from the president of support, at a time when, as we know, he is also trying to press Netanyahu to prioritize getting the hostages out, not making the full assault on Rafah. So, how that conversation, I think, unfolds today will be very interesting to hear a read out in terms of - because, again, I think it becomes more important to reaffirm the reaffirmation of support that we've heard from the president.

HUNT: Yes. All right, our Jeremy Diamond is standing by now with more on this.

Jeremy, can you - we've been - we've been just digging into the politics on the ground in Israel around this. This, of course, going to probably land there like an earthquake. What are you learning or hearing from officials there?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we've reached out to - for reaction, obviously, to the prime minister's office, as well as the defense minister's office, since these are the two individuals on the Israeli side who the ICC is seeking arrest warrants for. So far no reaction.

But there's no question that this will indeed prompt significant reaction inside of Israel. And I suspect that it will also prompt quite a bit of defiance from the Israeli prime minister himself.

We got a taste at the end of last month as there were rumors circulating that the ICC might indeed issue or seek arrest warrants against top Israeli leaders. We got a taste of what the Israeli prime minister's reaction would be when he preempted effectively this move, saying that a decision by the ICC to issue arrest warrants for Israeli political officials or military commanders, he said would be a, quote, "scandal on a historic scale." He also called it - said it would be "an indelible stain on all of humanity and an unprecedented anti- Semitic hate crime."

[07:00:02] So that is the kind of language that I think we will - we can expect to hear from the Israeli prime minister as we expect reaction soon.

HUNT: An unprecedented anti-Semitic reality. That's very - very strong language there.

Jeremy Diamond for us in Jerusalem. Jeremy, thank you for being here to share all of that reporting.

Again, we are reporting here now at CNN that the ICC is seeking arrest warrants for the leader of Hamas, Yahya Sinwar, and the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu. We're going to have much more continuing coverage of this coming up.

I'm Kasie Hunt.

"CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.