Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Rep. Glenn Ivey (D-MD) is Interviewed about the Biden Pardon, Patel Pick and the Democratic Party; Mark Esper is Interviewed about Violence in Syra; Trump Taps Daughters'' Father-in-Laws for Administration; Mark McKinnon is Interviewed about the Biden Pardon. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired December 02, 2024 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:31:43]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FLEETWOOD MAC (singing): Yesterday's gone. Don't stop thinking about tomorrow. Don't stop, it'll soon be here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Democrats, once again, thinking about tomorrow, just not exactly in the way they'd hoped when the party embraced that motto during Bill Clinton's '92 campaign.

A recent poll finding that Democratic voters, particularly young voters, are less optimistic about their party's future than at any point in the past eight years. Democrats debating how they're going to reinvigorate and rebuild their base as they prepare to try to make important decisions about who will fill key leadership roles in Congress and at the Democratic National Committee.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY (D-CT): I wish the Biden campaign and the Biden White House and the Harris campaign talked more about what they did to break up corporate power. So, I think Democrats need to be much more aggressive in making this case.

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): We weren't communicating the way that we needed to.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): And we've got to win the House back in 2026.

TIM RYAN, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: We need a complete reboot. We need a complete reboot with the DNC. We need a complete rebranding. Our brand is toxic in so many places.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, joining us now is Democratic Congressman Glenn Ivey of Maryland. He currently sits on the House Judiciary and Ethics Committees.

Congressman, I'm so grateful to have you on the program this morning. Thanks for being here.

REP. GLENN IVEY (D-MD): Thanks for having me.

HUNT: So, I do want to start with what we learned overnight with President Joe Biden, who decided to pardon his son, Hunter, not just for the crimes that he was convicted of and pled guilty to, but for a sweeping 10 year period of time.

Did President Biden make the right decision?

IVEY: You know, I think it's - I've got mixed views about it, frankly. I think that, you know, there is concern that the president legitimately had that the Trump administration and, you know, all this - the retribution tour stuff, with respect to the Department of Justice and how he plans to use it against his enemies, I think there's a legitimate concern about what that could lead to. And I think that's part of why the president put in a 10-year stretch for the - for the pardon term, because that should protect him against anything really up against - up to the statute of limitations basically for most offenses.

On the other hand, though, I got to say that, even though I don't think Hunter Biden would have been prosecuted under most circumstances, a pardon at this point will be used against, I think, Democrats who were pushing to defend the Department of Justice against politicizing it, which is certainly what President Trump plans to do, a President-elect Trump.

And, you know, the Patel nomination, I think the - many of the other nominations, it looks like he's going to try and use it in a way to go against and inflict retribution on people. And I think this sort of gives him ground to argue that, you know both sides are doing the same thing. So, I know that there was a real strong sentiment and, you know, wanting to protect Hunter Biden from unfair prosecution. But this is going to be used against us when we're fighting the misuses that are coming from the Trump administration.

[06:35:00]

HUNT: Very interesting.

Sir, you know, for viewers who don't know, you yourself have worked at the highest levels of our law enforcement and legal communities and worlds, including in high profile political scandals, Whitewater, for example. Do you think that Republicans have any ground to stand on in terms of the arguments that they're making about the Department of Justice? Is there validity to the feelings that they may have about how the department conducted itself in the first Trump administration and since?

IVEY: No, I think most of that stuff is really overblown, and intentionally so. I mean, it's - Trump - one thing about Trump is it's not new when, you know, politicians are under investigation by the Department of Justice that they say its political, a witch hunt. Those are phrases that have been used for decades by people in the crosshairs. Say like Senator Menendez, for example, who was recently convicted for misconduct in office.

The difference here is that, twofold. One is, a lot of people started believing Trump. And, you know, his MAGA base is, you know, fully on board with the argument that the entire Department of Justice is somehow, you know, an abuse of power and it's just running out of control and needs to be, quote, unquote, "reined in." And I think that's one of the big problems.

The other one, though, is that he's going to be the president of the United States and will have full control over the Department of Justice. And, you know, the Patel nomination for FBI, I think, is a bad omen for what he might want to do with that. And his - his statements about it have been pretty explicit. So, its - it's pretty concerning, I would say. And, you know, what's at risk is the overall rule of law in the United States, which has been a real bedrock for us for more than a century. And we need to fight to preserve that.

HUNT: Congressman, Democrats did spend, of course, the last campaign strenuously arguing to Americans many of the points that you just laid out. Why, in your view, did Americans vote to put Republicans in charge of the White House and both houses of Congress? And what do you think your party needs to be doing differently going forward?

IVEY: Well, it seems like the exit interview data that I've seen so far and, you know, the postmortem polling data seemed to indicate that it was really driven by their views of the economy. And I think there were a couple of factors there. One was, I think, we spent too much time talking about how good things were from a macroeconomic standpoint. And even though they are, frankly. And, you know, in a lot of ways the U.S. economy is the envy of the world. But there were a lot of individual people who just weren't feeling it in their daily lives, and at their kitchen tables. And so I think they turned to the alternative, and that was Trump, unfortunately.

Now, one of the things I think we could have done better there was communicate. I think a lot of times we passed landmark legislation that was helping people and will come to help people. Some of the - the - you know especially the infrastructure big projects will come to bear, you know, probably in the next year or two, so they take time to roll out. But people didn't know all the particulars, you know. So they heard like initials, you know, ARPA (ph) and that kind of thing, but they didn't know specifically what was going to benefit them.

HUNT: Yes.

IVEY: With one or two exceptions, like the prescription drug costs for insulin, for example.

But overall, I think they didn't really know what we had done. And we didn't do a great job of telling them. And that led them to misunderstand where they stood in the economy and - and who was going to help them more than the other party. And I think the Democrats have done a great deal to help, but I don't think we got the message across.

HUNT: All right, Congressman Glenn Ivey, very grateful to have you spend some time with us this morning. I hope you'll come back on the show, sir.

IVEY: Thank you.

HUNT: See you soon.

All right, still ahead here on CNN this morning, Syria's long running civil war entering an explosive new phase. Former Defense Secretary Mark Esper joins us to talk about the latest developments in the Middle East.

Plus, merit or nepotism? President-elect Trump looks into his own family to fill out his administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENT-ELECT (October 9, 2006): I like nepotism. I think - you know, a lot of people say, oh nepotism. So, usually these are people without children. But I like nepotism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:43:45]

HUNT: A violent, deadly night in Syria. Dozens killed in the northwestern part of the country and airstrikes carried out by the Syrian government and Russia. They are targeting rebel forces who took control of much of Aleppo and Idlib in a surprise attack. An attack that Iran and Russia, Syria's biggest supporters, apparently never saw coming.

I asked National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan about that on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Was the U.S. government surprised by how swiftly these rebels took over?

JAKE SULLIVAN, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, let me tell you one thing we weren't surprised by. We were not surprised that these rebels would try to take advantage of a new situation in which the Syrian government's main backers, Iran, Russia and Hezbollah, were all distracted and weakened by conflicts and events elsewhere.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: All right, joining us now to discuss, former Secretary of Defense Mark Esper. He served in President Donald Trump's first term.

Mr. Secretary, very grateful to have you on the show. Thanks for being here.

MARK ESPER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Good morning, Kasie.

HUNT: Were you surprised by what we've seen unfold on the ground in Syria? And what impact do you think it has, big picture, on a region that's obviously in considerable turmoil right now?

[06:45:01]

ESPER: Yes, I was a little surprised. And I think by the fact that Jake Sullivan didn't answer your question, the administration was a little surprised, which is more concerning.

Look, I think it is significant. It points to a number of things. First of all, it is true, of course, that Russia and Iran and Hezbollah are both weakened and distracted. And this created that opportunity for these rebels to advance on Aleppo. And now they're expanding that advance. So, it's important to see the Assad regime under pressure. But it - when you step back, it does speak to the fact that you now have countries, players in the region that are in a far worse position today than they were not just ten years ago, but really over a year ago, since October 7th when Hamas attacked Israel in that brutal assault against Israelis.

So the - you could see the - the chessboard in the Middle East is changing around right now in front of our eyes.

HUNT: Speaking of the chessboard, sir, how do you think the impending inauguration of President-elect Trump is impacting that, particularly in terms of whether we may see more pressure for a ceasefire between Hamas and Israel?

ESPER: Well, first of all, it's a lot more complex, complicated, dangerous situation in the world today than it was when Donald Trump left office in January of 2021. So, he faces that coming in.

Secondly, we know that he wants a world without conflict. Of course, we all want a world without conflict, but that's - that's not what we live in these days.

I think when it comes to the Middle East though, I think Donald Trump's arrival on the scene in January of next year will be a benefit, more so than the Biden administration, to the Israelis than anybody else. And I think the nation that has most of fear is Iran. You know, it didn't help the Iranians that leading up to Donald Trump's election in - in - earlier this month in - or last month in November, we know that Iran was trying to undermine his campaign on social media and we also know that Iranians were trying to kill the president, trying to assassinate him. So, he comes in, you know, with a - with a really tainted view of Iran. He's already talked about a maximum pressure campaign against the Iranian regime to break them. We, obviously, are concerned about Iran's nuclear aspirations.

So, I think Iran is in a very weak position. Israel will be in a stronger position coming into the new year.

HUNT: Very interesting.

So, sir, you've obviously done the job of secretary of defense. President Trump filling out his cabinet, and he has nominated the veteran and Fox News host Pete Hegseth for that role. Over the weekend, "The New York Times" reported on an email that his mother had sent to him amid a contentious divorce. And this is what she wrote about, again, her own son. Quote, "I have no respect for any man that belittles, lies, cheats, sleeps around and uses women for his own power and ego. You are that man, and have been for years. And as your mother, it pains me and embarrasses me to say that, but it is the sad, sad truth."

This is, obviously, a man in Pete Hegseth who's going to have to endure a committee hearing before the United States Senate. What do you think something like this says about his fitness to lead the department?

ESPER: Yes, I saw that story as well. And you're kind of shocked by it. It's one thing to have your political opponents attack you, but it's - it's pretty damning when your mother - you know, a letter is uncovered where your mother is talking about your character and integrity and how you treat women.

Look, I think for any nominee, the longer you're out there exposed, the more there is for opponents, critics, skeptics the media, others to kind of pick at your resume, at your experience, of what you've said and done in the past. And at this point in time, you know, Trump has done a good job in terms of proposing a full cabinet at this point in time, but they're going to sit out there for the rest of December, early January, and they really won't have nomination hearings until after January 20th. So, that's a long time to be out there. And you can expect that more is going to come out with all of his nominees over time. And that's kind of the danger of when you're nominated for these positions.

HUNT: One of the other nominees, and - and I know we don't want to dig too deep into this, but I do want to touch on Kash Patel, who is the nominee to lead the FBI, only because he wrote about you in his book. He called you the "poster child of the defense industrial complex" and remarked that you were one of the "members of the executive branch of the deep state."

And he has talked about targeting people. I'm just interested to know if you're at all concerned about him leading the bureau from a personal perspective.

ESPER: Well, you know, he doesn't bring to the job the experience that one would expect. And, you know, somebody I trust and respect, Bill Barr, has - has said damning things about Kash Patel and his ability to lead the organization.

And I think really for - for anybody, what - we do want reform for our institutions, but what you don't want are people politicizing them and using them for personal retribution, for going after - for others.

[06:50:04] And that's going to be the concern of everybody. And I think that's going to be the scrutiny of the Senate when - if Kash Patel goes before the Judiciary Committee for his hearings to be the FBI director, that will play out over time. And these will be some of the top questions I suspect he'll be asked.

HUNT: Fair enough.

All right, Mark Esper for us this morning. Sir, always grateful to have your expertise on the program. I hope you'll come back soon.

ESPER: Thanks, Kasie.

HUNT: All right, let's turn now to this, from Donald Trump's days on "The Apprentice," to his first presidency, the president-elect has long tapped his own family members to fill key roles.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENT-ELECT (October 9, 2006): I like nepotism, I think, you know, a lot of people say oh, nepotism. Usually these are people without children. But I like nepotism.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Over the weekend, Trump announced plans for the billionaire Massad Boulos to serve as his senior advisor on Arab and Middle Eastern affairs. OK, notably, this man, also the father-in-law to Trump's daughter, Tiffany.

Additionally, Trump named Charles Kushner the next U.S. ambassador to France. Charles Kushner is, of course, Jared Kushner's father, so that's his other daughter, Ivanka's father-in-law.

Our panel has returned.

So, Brad, he's pretty candid there in that, yes, old clip. But as we know, Donald Trump actually has been remarkably consistent over many years on a lot of things like this. And, of course, it's worth noting, Trump pardoned Charles Kushner, who was, you know, put behind bars by Chris Christie. So, it's - there's a lot more to that saga.

BRAD TODD, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST AND PARTNER, ONMESSAGE INC.: Nepotism goes back as far as we've had a presidency. And Donald Trump just says it out loud. And of course he wants people around him who are loyal to him, who are close to him. Every president has.

And I think we keep skipping over the fact that one of the reasons Donald Trump is popular with swing voters is - who are cynical about politics is because he says things out loud that other people just do and then act like they're not going to do.

EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: And though we've talked about Hunter Biden among this panel already this morning, we - in the Biden administration itself, we did not see nepotism like this. In the Obama administration we did not in the same way of family members in positions.

That said, ambassadorships are ridiculous in the way that they work in America. In the eyes of most foreign governments. The ambassador to France under Barack Obama was a major donor who didn't even speak French. But I don't think anybody could argue that Donald Trump took a view of all the people who are qualified for these positions, who could possibly be ambassador to France, and just happened to find Jared Kushner's father.

HUNT: Well, and, Saleha, let's just watch - this was Chris Christie back in 2019 talking about the nature of the crime that Charles Kushner committed.

Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I mean, if a guy hires a prostitute to seduce his brother-in-law and videotapes it and then sends the videotape to his sister to attempt to intimidate her from testifying before a grand jury, do I really need any more justification than that? I mean it's one of the most loathsome, disgusting crimes that I prosecuted when I was U.S. attorney.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Your incoming U.S. ambassador to France.

SALEHA MOHSIN, SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT, "BLOOMBERG": Yes, he is, but I think the American voter that brought Donald Trump back into the White House is not paying attention to this kind of nuance.

I remember traveling over the past year, starting in January, to Iowa, Ohio, Kentucky, Wisconsin, talking to voters face to face, not just looking at polls and things and saying, why is it that you're voting for Donald Trump? And they said, because he's going to do things that are against tradition, but he'll just tell us he's doing it.

Meanwhile, we've got - currently we're talking about Joe Biden who said all year, I'm not going to pardon my son, I'm not going to pardon my son, and then he does it. So, they like the honesty and they're not looking at the nuance that we are all talking about today.

TODD: Well, let's go back to -

HUNT: Very briefly.

TODD: Joe Biden also facilitated a lot of Hunter's own business dealings when he was vice president, too. I mean, like, this - this is - there's - there's more to this than just a pardon.

HUNT: All right, let's, in fact, turn back to this developing news about President Biden's sweeping pardon of his son, Hunter. While Biden broke his previous promise to not absolve his son of his federal and tax - tax and gun convictions, controversial presidential pardons and commutations are far from unusual, especially right at the end of a president's term.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GERALD FORD, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT (September 8, 1974): And by these presents do grant a full, free and absolute pardon unto Richard Nixon.

ROGER COSSACK, CNN ANCHOR (January 2001): As one of his final acts as commander in chief, former President Bill Clinton pardoned 140 people. Among them, Roger Clinton, the former president's brother, who spent a year in prison for a guilty plea of selling cocaine.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR (July 2, 2007): President Bush threw a lifeline to former White House aide Lewis "Scooter" Libby, commuting Libby's 30 month prison sentence.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR (January 17, 2017): President Obama has commuted the remaining prison sentence of Chelsea Manning.

COOPER (July 10, 2020): Breaking news tonight. The president has just commuted the prison sentence of his former campaign adviser and longtime confidant, Roger Stone.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN ANCHOR (November 25, 2020): President Trump announcing moments ago that he has granted a full pardon to his former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, who pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[06:55:02]

HUNT: All right, joining us now to discuss, former adviser to George W. Bush and John McCain, Mark McKinnon. Also the creator of Paramount's "The Circus."

Mark, it's Monday, so we're thrilled to have you.

Let's talk about what we saw here from the president. Were you surprised by it? And what do you think are the long-term implications, if any?

MARK MCKINNON, CREATOR, "THE CIRCUS": well, you know, the old expression, Kasie, family over country. This is so disappointing and deflating on so many levels, but especially including the fact that Biden went out of his way to make clear, on numerous occasions, on the record, that this was not going to happen. And now there's reporting that there were perhaps even discussions where they - they talked about the fact that he was going to do this and would say something different publicly. So, it's no wonder why the public loses trust in public institutions and public leaders.

And the problem for this is that it - obviously it helps Hunter Biden, but it hurts the Democrats and it hurts the country because this is really good for Donald Trump and it's really good for Kash Patel because this makes the argument that Trump and Patel have been making about the Justice Department and the Democrats have been screaming about Donald Trump, and it just turns it around on - on - takes away the argument from Democrats. So, it's really disappointing to me. And I think a, you know, a bad day for politics, a bad day for the country.

HUNT: Peter Baker put it this way, kind of underscoring what you - what you're saying here, quote, "Mr. Biden's pardon will make it harder for Democrats to defend the integrity of the Justice Department and stand against Mr. Trump's unapologetic plans to use it for political purposes, even as he seeks to install Kash Patel, an adviser who has vowed to come after the president-elect's enemies, as the next director of the FBI. It will also be harder for Democrats to criticize Mr. Trump for his prolific use of the pardon power to absolve friends and allies, some of whom could have been witnesses against him in previous investigations."

Can Democrats now plausibly be out there saying - arguing that the Department of Justice has been fair and evenhanded?

MCKINNON: No, they can't. And that's the problem. And so now - now Patel has got a lot of wind at his back for this nomination because they can use all these arguments. And it's - you know, it's - it really is problematic for the - just the general confirmation. And I think what we really need is - is some part - some pardon legal constitutional revisions or statute revisions on the pardon laws because it's been so abused here.

You know, listen, at the end of the day, this helps Hunter Biden. It helps Kash Patel. And it helps witches because witch hunt is now a term that just has no resonance whatsoever.

HUNT: Mark, do you feel like this particular pardon is remarkable in how it was framed because of the period of time that the president put in here? Because, I mean, obviously, we came in with - Biden is not the first person to pardon friends and family, shall we say. But, at the same time, there are some differences.

MCKINNON: Well, I think that's what's really disturbing to me, Kasie, is how sweeping it is, and it makes it pretty clear that that there was some - that there may be some there there that we weren't aware of and that - that Biden is aware of. And there's some reporting about some foreign agent registration problems and the sort of things that Democrats were saying that Republicans were making up. Now, there's credence to believe that maybe it was true. So, that's why it's problematic.

And listen, I think the thing about the State Department and Kash Patel is that ultimately I think what's going to happen is that Patel will get in there, if he's confirmed, obviously, and we'll discover that the deep state is not so deep. There's really - you know, it is filled with lots of people who are good citizens. And, by the way, lots of Republicans. The people - and when I was in college who were going to the FBI were shiny-shoed Republicans, not a bunch of progressive liberals. So, I think they're going to find that, you know, it's populated by conservatives. And as I said, the deep state won't be so deep. But they do now have confirmation that, at the very least, the leadership and the politicians are the problem. HUNT: All right, Mark McKinnon for us this morning.

Mark, I'm always grateful for your perspective. Thank you so much for being here.

MCKINNON: Kick it, Kasie. Thanks.

HUNT: See you soon.

Our panel is back.

Very, very briefly here, Brad, trust in the Department of Justice and in our legal systems. How do we - to restore it to the extent that it has been damaged, apparently, I mean, Mark is arguing by both sides here.

TODD: Well, they're - first off, all institutions are in trouble right? The Justice Department is not the only one. There are good people on the lines of the FBI agents. But the FBI has to stop wading into political matters, like school board fights, all those sort of things. It has to just prosecute the crime and particularly line crime.

HUNT: Yes. I mean, Meghan, it's not just Republicans. I mean, ask Hillary Clinton what she thinks of Jim Comey.

MEGHAN HAYS, FORMER BIDEN WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF MESSAGE PLANNING: Right. I just think that we are making a lot of this pardon here. And I think that we - we need to take a step back. Like you said, the American people are not looking at this.

[07:00:00]

They are not into this. This is not that deep for them. They are more concerned about other issues. This is a political issue that we are making a lot of nonsense out of. But, I mean, I agree with you that we need to look at these - these systems and reform them. But like, Joe Biden pardoning his son is not the issue here.

HUNT: All right, I guess we're - we will find out how much Americans are focused on it here in the coming days.

Thanks to all of you for being with us. Thanks to you for joining us as well.

I'm Kasie Hunt. Don't go anywhere. "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.