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CNN This Morning

Former Top Biden Aide Slams Hunter Biden Pardon Rollout; Fingerprints and Casings Tie Suspect to Shooting; Long-Simmering Anger Directed at Insurance Industry; Rep. Zach Nunn (R-IA) is Interviewed about Mysterious Drones; Time Magazine Names Trump Person of the Year. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired December 12, 2024 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:34:13]

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: All right, breaking news this morning. President Biden preparing to announce clemency for about 1,500 people, including pardons for 39 who were convicted of non-violent crimes. It comes as he's faced harsh criticism for the way he pardoned his son, Hunter. Not just from members of both parties, but now from a former top adviser to the president. Anita Dunn, a deeply loyal communications adviser, departed the White House after Biden pulled out of the race. She made these remarks, and that's what makes them particularly painful.

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ANITA DUNN, FORMER BIDEN ADVISER: As we were in the midst of the president-elect rolling out his nominees, and in particular in the middle of a Kash Patel weekend, kind of throwing this into the middle of it was exceptionally poor timing, and that the argument is one that I think many observers are concerned about, a president who ran to restore the rule of law, who has upheld the rule of law, who has really defended the rule of law, kind of saying, well, maybe not right now.

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[06:35:17]

HUNT: Dunn says that she agrees with President Biden's decision to pardon his son, but, there you saw it, she said she has issues with the timing and the strategy. The public seems to agree. A new CNN poll revealing 68 percent of Americans disapprove of the president pardoning his son, and barely half of all Democrats, 56 percent, backed the president's decision. Just 29 percent of independents and 11 percent of Republicans approve of the pardon.

Alex Thompson, were you surprised that Anita Dunn said this in public?

ALEX THOMPSON, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: No, because to give you a little backstory here, Anita Dunn and Hunter Biden have not gotten along for a very, very, very long time. Anita Dunn, you know, Hunter blames Anita Dunn for sort of the strategy of the first two years, which was to just lie low and take it essentially. And you saw basically that Hunter fired all the lawyers that Anita and her husband, Bob Bauer, hired for him after 2022 and sort of took a much more aggressive PR strategy.

So, I'm not - there is some backstory here about the frustration between the two of them. I also think, you know, Anita is not as close in the inner circle - Biden's inner circle, in part because of that conflict. Because, at the end of the day, you know, the Biden family comes first.

HUNT: Kate.

KATE BEDINGFIELD, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Alex laid out a lot of what I was going to say. It's important - it's important to understand, there's no love lost between Anita Dunn and Hunter Biden and Hunter's legal team. And the - particularly the communications strategy around Hunter over the last few years has been a point of conflict between Hunter's legal team, Hunter, Anita and Bob. So, I wasn't surprised either to see her criticize the - the communications rollout. You know, I think doing it in the way that they did, did leave Biden open to more criticism than he might have otherwise gotten had he done it at the very end of the term, or in conjunction with a number of other pardons. Doing it solo like that really kind of put a target on Hunter's back.

I agree, I've said on our air, I agree that the pardon itself is defensible. But, you know, I think Anita has a valid point about the way that the communication strategy was - was executed.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: To pick up on some of that, you know, it's - and some of it's about the timing of the Hunter Biden pardon. Pardons are an important part of any president's legacy, a way to carry out sort of a political or policy vision. You know, it's been, for instance, among Democrats, it's a big thing to go after non- violent drug offenses that were administered decades ago but, you know, don't fit with America today. And, quite frankly, Joe Biden probably would have pardoned some of these folks anyway, or commuted their sentences.

BEDINGFIELD: Yes, oh, I agree with that. Certainly.

WILLIAMS: The problem, and this is to your point, is that every pardon or commutation he does now has a giant asterisk next to it because of the Hunter Biden pardon. The whole legacy of clemency in this administration now is tied to that one moment. And whether it's the timing of it or the fact that they did it at all, it's just almost not easy - possible to take the president seriously on clemency.

MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Well, and the extent that this pardon took, it was a blanket pardon. It was ten years looking backwards. It was above and beyond what a normal pardon would have been.

WILLIAMS: Yes. DUBKE: And it - it leaves a bad taste in everyone's mouth. And it politicizes the DOJ in a way that I think other Democrats are upset about, because when Trump says the DOJ is politicized, Joe Biden proved him right.

WILLIAMS: And I think, why it went back ten years is sort of the thing we were talking about earlier in the show of the public not understanding some of the ins and outs of government. They kind of had to do that because there was a pending investigation and there was still conduct he could have faced.

Now, OK, as a matter of law enforcement, that makes total sense. As a matter of icky, it does not. And that's why the public doesn't really like stuff like this.

HUNT: All right, let's turn now to the story - I mean everyone was so focused - has been so focused on, for days now. The NYPD claiming to now have forensic evidence tying 26 year old suspect Luigi Mangione to the sidewalk execution of United Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

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JESSICA TISCH, NYPD COMMISSIONER: First we got the gun in question back from Pennsylvania. It's now at the NYPD crime lab. We were able to match that gun to the three shell casings that we found in midtown at the scene of the homicide.

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HUNT: The NYPD saying some of the items Mangione allegedly dropped near the Manhattan crime scene are connected to his fingerprints. And the 3-D printed gun found on him matches three shell casings found near Thompson's body. His lawyer challenging the charges, saying evidence and what's admitted into court are two separate issues.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

THOMAS DICKEY, ATTORNEY FOR LUIGI MANGIONE: What we're talking about is fingerprint evidence and some ballistics. Those two sciences in and of themselves have come under some criticism in the past relative to their credibility, their truthfulness, their accuracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[06:40:06]

HUNT: Elliot Williams, this - what do you make of how this guy is defending Luigi Mangione in public, first of all, but also on the specifics -

WILLIAMS: All right. Two different questions. In public, as a style question, yuck. But, as - as a defense attorney, he's doing what he needs to do.

Look, something that's very important to know is that the only fact that is undisputed here is that a man was killed in New York City with a firearm by someone who ran away. It is the job of law enforcement to link an individual to what happens there.

Now, there are ways they can do it, such as with ballistic evidence and fingerprints and eyewitnesses and McDonald's workers and so on. But that's the job of prosecutors, not the job of the media or, frankly, the defense attorney to do. And he's doing what he ought to do.

Now, I would say, as a former prosecutor, when you have fingerprints, which are really hard to find, don't believe CSI or law and order, they're hard to get off of substances. But when you - I know you -

HUNT: Really, I mean, I - honestly, TV makes it look so easy.

WILLIAMS: I know. That's - as a prosecutor in does -

BEDINGFIELD: And his fingerprint. And then - and then run his DNA and you've got it. What's the problem.

(CROSS TALK)

BEDINGFIELD: What's the problem?

HUNT: Yes.

WILLIAMS: Not to make this the Elliot show, but - but, no, it - it - to judges, to prosecutors, it's quite frustrating on television because that's just not reality. There's not DNA everywhere. There aren't fingerprints everywhere.

So, the mere fact that they have usable - usable prints, apparently, it's quite significant. The fact that you have ballistic evidence is quite significant. The fact that you have multiple people in different jurisdictions seeing him. But that's not in court yet. And that's, you know, much of it will. But the defense attorney is doing his job. The prosecutors and cops ought to do theirs. And it looks like they've got good evidence.

HUNT: So, let's talk for a second about the sort of politics around all of this because it is seeping into our politics. We're still working on - Elizabeth Warren made some comments. They're - they're on camera. We're trying to track those down. But she made similar ones to "The Huffington Post." And she says this, quote, "the visceral response from people around this country who feel cheated, ripped off and threatened by the vile practice of their insurance companies should be a warning to everyone in the health care system. Violence is never the answer, but people can only be pushed so far."

Alex Thompson, I mean, these comments have kind of ricocheted already as sort of, she's careful - she's careful to say violence isn't the answer.

THOMPSON: But -

WILLIAMS: But -

DUBKE: But - HUNT: It sounds like we may - we do have the shot. Let's - let's watch it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): And what happens when you turn this into the billionaires run it all, is they get the opportunity to squeeze every last penny.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

WARREN: And, look, we'll say it over and over, violence is never the answer. This guy gets a trial who's allegedly killed the CEO of United Health. But you can only push people so far.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Alex Thompson, what do you make of that?

THOMPSON: I think Democrats - well, I think both parties actually recognize that there's a lot of anger in the country in different ways, and they're appealing to it in different ways. But clearly that was an attempt to make sort of a populist appeal to what is this very, you know, violent, just, you know, seemingly, we don't understand exactly why, but just this incredibly violent murder.

HUNT: You mentioned kind of how this is something that's percolating across - this was Joe Rogan actually on his podcast talking about health insurance. Let's watch that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think anybody's going to, like, be crying too hard over that guy.

JOE ROGAN: Yes, maybe his family, but that's about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. It's a dirty, dirty business. The business of insurance is (EXPLETIVE DELETED) gross. It's gross. And especially health care insurance. Just (EXPLETIVE DELETED) gross.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: I mean, we were still listening to it.

Mike Dubke -

DUBKE: Yes.

HUNT: That's - I mean -

DUBKE: He's not wrong, but it's also gross that thousands of donations are pouring in on a GoFundMe page for Luigi's defense. I mean part of this is, there is something wrong with healthcare in America. I don't think anyone can deny that. But we really, you know, we've got a child of - of means who, for whatever reason, you know, and he hasn't been proven guilty, Elliot, you correct me here. So I stay safe yet.

WILLIAMS: Yet.

DUBKE: You know, gunning down in cold blood on the streets of New York, a guy that grew up in Iowa and, you know, advanced in corporate America for reasons we don't necessarily understand right now. All of that is bad.

But this is - this is - violence has really starting to creep into our politics. Trump had two assassination attempts. I used to joke that, you know, people would say, politics now is dirty. It's terrible. It's violent. I go, yes, look at the '60s with all the assassinations and all of that, at least we don't have that happening. Now we do, and that's - that's what's worrisome to me.

WILLIAMS: And we have the internet. If - if any of these people would say those things to Brian Thompson's family, they would not.

DUBKE: Right.

WILLIAMS: And it can be true that the healthcare industry is awful. But, you know, I just sometimes wish people would think before clicking send.

DUBKE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: That's all.

HUNT: Yes.

Life advice. Life advice from Elliot Williams this morning.

DUBKE: It's the Elliot show.

HUNT: OK.

WILLIAMS: You're welcome.

[06:45:00]

HUNT: Coming up next here on CNN THIS MORNING, restoring order in Syria after the stunning fall of Assad. Congressman, Air Force Colonel, Zach Nunn will join us to discuss.

Plus, 2024, the year of the U.S. election. It's only right that "Times" Person of the Year would be the winner of that election.

And a hail Mary. NFL coaching legend Bill Belichick heading to college ball with mixed reviews from students.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm excited. I grew up as a Patriots' fan. I'm from Massachusetts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is just old as well. So, that's also another issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no Iranian ship off the coast of the United States, and there's no so-called mothership launching drones towards the United States.

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HUNT: Officials say the drones over New Jersey do not present a threat to public safety, but that doesn't change the fact that people are feeling uneasy.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm going to have to go because of them.

[06:50:00]

So bizarre. I get why everyone's freaking out now.

I think it's - it's kind of spooky.

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HUNT: Homeland Security officials and the FBI met with New Jersey lawmakers yesterday to discuss the situation. Some of them were left frustrated by the lack of answers. One New Jersey state senator demanding a stronger federal response.

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JON BRAMNICK, NEW JERSEY STATE SENATOR: New Jersey doesn't have the resources to follow drones and understand exactly what the drones are doing. We just don't have that technology. So, that's why I said, bringing in the Department of Defense, shut down the airspace until we figure out, what are these drones doing in New Jersey. I can tell you what they're not doing. If they're Martians, I guarantee you they're not staying because the taxes are way too high. I know they'd be in Florida.

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HUNT: All right, joining us now, Republican Congressman Zach Nunn of Iowa. He is also a colonel in the U.S. Air Force Reserve, previously served as director of cybersecurity at the White House's National Security Council.

Congressman, thanks very much for being here.

REP. ZACH NUNN (R-IA): Thanks so much for having us on. And I think you're absolutely right, we have a real concern here where

you have drones that are literally the size of a small vehicle flying in a held position over civilian airspace. And that, even more importantly, over civilians. And I think anyone would be concerned, whether you're in New Jersey or whether you're on a Coast Guard cutter that's also had them trolling around.

What we know about this is that the drone technology overwhelmingly is probably Chinese made. What we know is that this has been a pervasive challenge for months now. And what we also know is that this is interfering, not just with the safety of the communities there, but also airspace and operations. There's got to be an answer. And this has been a frustrating part as a, you know, member, both with an intelligence background, but an Air Force background, to say, how are we at a point here where the FAA and the federal government and local government don't have an answer for people on the ground?

HUNT: Yes, to that point, obviously it was just New Jersey that was briefed on this specifically.

NUNN: Yes.

HUNT: One of the New Jersey members came out and - and as the Pentagon rebutted there, said that this was a mothership from Iran that was launching these drones. Obviously, they pushed back and said, no, that's not happening. Or, rather, that there's not an Iranian ship off the coast of the United States.

NUNN: Right.

HUNT: But do you think it's plausible that there are foreign actors behind these drones over New Jersey?

NUNN: Absolutely. And I think we've seen one of the most pervasive actors in this, whether you're talking about what's happening in the Middle East right now, where Iran sent a large scale attack against Israel using Iran - or drone technology to what's just being produced indigenously in eastern Europe that can come across this.

Look, we know we've got some real challenges here in the United States to keep up with our drone technology. It's one of the things I actually put in this year's NDAA that we just passed, that we can catch up with some of our adversaries in this space.

I think the bigger question we need to ask, though, is, what is the pushback on this? Whether it's drones today, whether it's Chinese intrusion sets, which have hit our telecommunications and something called Salt Typhoon, that have really put the U.S. on the defensive edge? I think a lot of Americans are asking, when do we start pushing back? When do we start doing more than defense? But aggressive offense on making sure this doesn't show up on our shores.

HUNT: Sir, speaking of the Chinese.

NUNN: Yes. HUNT: And you mentioned, of course, that Salt Typhoon hack that has reportedly gotten into the American telecommunications networks in ways that allow them to listen to phone calls -

NUNN: Right.

HUNT: Read text messages and other things.

There was also reporting overnight, this is from CBS News, still, at this point, not confirmed here at CNN. But the reporting that they have is that Donald Trump, the president-elect, has invited Xi Jinping, the Chinese president, to the inauguration next month. Do you think that this is a smart thing to do, considering all of the rest of these dynamics?

NUNN: Yes, I mean, I think we should look at what our red lines, particularly in the space of a preemptive attack, whether it's on the United States through cyber intrusions - let's not forget, this is the largest cyber intrusion into telecommunications ever in American history. And they're not just targeting President Trump or J.D. Vance. They've crossed a threshold now where they're going after American citizens, taking their information and targeting them in the same way that spy craft would identify a target, cultivate it, and find things that it wants to about it to exploit it for later use.

I believe, at this point, we need to be far more aggressive in knowing, what is our threshold, and then targeting, whether it's the Chinese ministry of state security, the MSS, their CIA, or whether we go after their People's Liberation Army top figures who are making these decisions.

And at the top of that food chain is the Chinese premier. And so, President Xi has to be briefed on this, whether its balloons flying over the United States, drones off the coast or deep intrusions into American's personal information, I would expect that any leader be prepared to hold the Chinese accountable on day one. And if President Trump is going to invite, you know, President Xi to spend time here in the United States, I hope that that's a conversation - I know that will be a conversation that he wants to hold him accountable for. Candidly, something that hasn't happened in the last four years.

HUNT: What do you think about the relationship, the personal relationship that President-elect Trump has had with President Xi? He is - he has been someone who clearly relies on those relationships in the conducting of foreign policy.

[06:55:04]

NUNN: Right.

HUNT: Are you comfortable with President-elect Trump's relationship, his personal relationship with Xi?

NUNN: I'm very confident in this. And I think this is actually one of the things, like Nixon, that opened up China, but also held China accountable. Our governor from Iowa, Terry Branstad, became the ambassador there. And it was really about providing China with some on ramps on what they could do correctly. But it was also the first time we'd really pushed back on China's military development, their shipbuilding, their threats in cybersecurity, and then also their operations towards other allies in the region. And I think building a personal relationship with President Trump, we have seen time and time again, whether it's the Europeans, folks in Asia, is probably the best way for us to have a strong voice, because when the president picks up the phone and says, I'm going to do this, foreign leaders know he's going to follow through.

HUNT: All right, Congressman Zach Nunn, very grateful to have you on the program.

NUNN: Thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity.

HUNT: Hope you'll come back here sometime soon.

NUNN: Thanks.

HUNT: Thanks.

All right, 55 minutes past the hour. Here is your morning roundup.

This just in. A U.S. citizen who went missing this summer in Hungary has been found in Syria. Twenty-nine-year-old Travis Timmerman was found walking barefoot in a neighborhood just south of Damascus. It's unclear how he got to Syria.

A Hawaii woman missing for four weeks has been found safe. Hannah Kobayashi's family didn't specify where she is or how she was determined to be safe. Last week police declared her voluntarily missing, saying that she crossed into Mexico from California on her own will.

Meta, formerly Facebook, making a $1 million donation to President- elect Trump's inaugural fund. It comes two weeks after CEO Mark Zuckerberg met with Trump privately at Mar-a-Lago. The donation first reported by "The Wall Street Journal."

Bill is heading to Chapel Hill. Bill Belichick will soon be back on the sidelines, this time coaching at the University of North Carolina. It's his first go at a college team. He parted ways with the Patriots back in January after 24 seasons as head coach. The eight-time Super Bowl champ agreed to a five year deal with UNC. It is pending approval.

Mike Dubke, why do you think he feels like he needs to do this?

DUBKE: I am just glad he's, as a Bills fan, that he's out of the NFL. But I also can't imagine him sitting on a couch of a high schoolers, you know, family living room and saying, this is why you need to come to Chapel Hill. I just - it doesn't make any sense. I guess he really wants to be back in the game.

HUNT: Well, doesn't it - isn't he lining up his son to, like, take over next as well in this program? WILLIAMS: A lot of - yes, a lot of his team, the folks that work with

him on the Patriots -

DUBKE: Yes.

WILLIAMS: He sort of bringing them along as well.

HUNT: Oh, right. Well, I guess it will be fun times if you're a UN - if you're UNC football.

DUBKE: Yes.

HUNT: All right, let's turn to this.

It's almost the end of 2024, which means a nearly century old tradition about to be announced.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": "Time" has unveiled their short list of nominees for Person of the Year. The list includes Joe Rogan, Kamala Harris, Donald Trump, Mark Zuckerberg, Benjamin Netanyahu, Kate Middleton And Elon Musk.

Can you imagine if Elon Musk gets Person of the Year over Donald Trump? That'll be the end of that relationship.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: Well, no need to worry, Elon. "Time Magazine" has chosen Donald Trump as Person of the Year, a distinction bestowed upon the individual or group deemed most influential this past year.

Trump held the title once before, back in 2016. He will celebrate today by ringing the opening bell at the New York Stock Exchange. This puts Trump in the ranks of past winners Winston Churchill, Taylor Swift, Joseph Stalin and nearly every U.S. president since FDR. Despite previously claiming the magazine lost credibility for not including him in past rankings, Trump had this reaction when he first earned the title in 2016.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENT-ELECT: Well, it's a great honor. It means a lot, especially me growing up reading "Time Magazine." And, you know, it's a very important magazine. And I've been lucky enough to be on the cover many times this year. So - and last year. But I consider this a very, very great honor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HUNT: A very, very great honor. If you've ever been in Donald Trump's office in Trump Tower, you know that there are framed "Time Magazines" on his wall. He - I mean, for someone - a creature of the '80s, it's like the ultimate honor. THOMPSON: Absolutely. And I think he's really gunning for Richard Nixon's long - long standing title of having the most time covers. But - but, yes, he is like a - I think this is something that's underappreciated. Even though we talk about all the podcasts and everything else. Trump fundamentally is still sort of a creature of the '80s. He still reads the print "New York Times," the print "New York Post," and "Time Magazine."

BEDINGFIELD: Perhaps gunning for Nixon's legacy in other ways as well. We - we shall see, I suppose.

HUNT: I will say, the print "New York Post" is really the way to go. Like "The New York Post" would.

Mike, what do you make of this choice?

DUBKE: Look, I think - I think it's a logical choice when you give everyone that - that was on that list.

[07:00:03]

Just look at the - the ceremony in - in Notre Dame. He was treated as an incumbent president coming and sitting at that - at that ceremony. We've had multiple foreign dignitaries come to Mar-a-Lago to - to meet with Trump. This is, you know, it's - he had a gap of four years, but this is the second term for Donald Trump.

HUNT: Yes.

DUBKE: He came back from the ashes in multiple ways. It makes a whole heck of a lot of sense.

HUNT: All right, guys, thanks very much for being with us today. Thanks to all of you at home for joining us as well. I'm Kasie Hunt. Don't go anywhere. CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now.