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CNN This Morning
Marc Fogel Released after 3.5 Years in Russia; Hegseth Meets Counterparts at NATO HQ in Brussels; Republicans Question Judiciary's Authority Over Trump. Aired 6-6:30a ET
Aired February 12, 2025 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: It is Wednesday, February 12. Right now, on CNN THIS MORNING.
[06:00:22]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARC FOGEL, RELEASED AFTER BEING WRONGFULLY RETAINED IN RUSSIA FOR 3.5 YEARS: I feel like the luckiest man on Earth right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The end of a personal nightmare. An American teacher, back on American soil after spending more than three years in a Russian prison.
Plus --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ELON MUSK, TRUMP ADVISOR: I fully expect to be scrutinized and get a, you know, daily proctology exam, basically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: OK. Who let the DOGE out. In a rare Oval Office appearance, Elon Musk faces questions from inside the White House, defending the administration's sweeping overhaul of the federal government.
And --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: We're not going to have to buy. We're going to take it. We're going to hold it. We're going to cherish it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Not clear what international law thinks of that.
Tripling down. The president standing firm on his plan to take over Gaza and relocate 2 million Palestinians who call it home. This right alongside Jordan's king. Why the U.S. ally is pushing back.
And --
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For far too long, the federal government has not answered these questions.
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SCIUTTO: Releasing the files from JFK to MLK. House Republicans announce a new task force on the declassification of federal secrets.
Six a.m. here on the East Coast. A live look at the Washington monument. Looking pretty this morning.
Good morning, everyone. I'm Jim Sciutto in for Kasie Hunt. Great to have you here with us.
Marc Fogel is home. The teacher from Pennsylvania spent the last three years wrongfully detained in Russia. He was welcomed back to the U.S. by President Trump last night after the administration secured his release.
He was draped, as you see there, in an American flag. Later, was handed a beer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOGEL: I feel like the luckiest man on Earth right now. And I want you to know that I am not a hero in this at all. And President Trump is a hero.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The White House did not say who the U.S. gave in exchange. President Trump called it a show of good faith from the Kremlin and signaled that another person may be released soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What were the terms of this deal, Mr. President?
TRUMP: Very fair. Very, very fair, very reasonable. Not like deals you've seen over the years. They were very fair. And I think that's going to lead -- and we're -- somebody else is being released tomorrow that you will know of.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The president went on to say that Fogel's release could be, quote, "a big, important part of ending the war in Ukraine."
Joining me now to discuss: Zolan Kanno-Youngs, White House correspondent for "The New York Times"; Karen Finney, senior adviser for Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign; and Matt Gorman, former senior adviser to Tim Scott's 2024 presidential campaign.
Matt, why wouldn't the president say who the gave -- U.S. gave in return?
MATT GORMAN, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR TO TIM SCOTT'S PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: I don't know. I'm not the -- I'm not the expert here.
But I think what was interesting, I thought it was a great night. Look, I take politics out of it. It was a great night for America.
I felt really bad for his family. I know. Because there was a lot of justifiable, you know, joy when Brittney Griner and folks at home, you can talk about that. The politics of the deal, which you can disagree with. Whatever.
But I felt bad. Obviously, the mother of Marc Fogel, I think obviously kind of felt like he was left behind.
And so, I think it was great to have him home, and also great that the mother really felt good about it. And it was great seeing him with his Steelers hat and the beer.
I think it was a good night, honestly, all around for this country. I really do.
SCIUTTO: Karen, you were involved in Brittney. You were in Brittney Griner's team --
KAREN FINNEY, FORMER SENIOR ADVISOR FOR HILLARY CLINTON'S 2016 PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN: Yes.
SCIUTTO: Involved in that release. Tell us your reaction to seeing this.
FINNEY: Well, certainly, a huge congratulations to -- there's a team at the NSC. I hope they all still have their jobs. There's a team at the State Department that this is what they do all day, every day is -- and when you talk to them, they say, you know, when we go to sleep at night, we're thinking about the people who we couldn't get home.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
FINNEY: Even when they have a win like this.
But it feels like -- look, I think they probably didn't want to say who -- who was for who so that we -- when we -- if we criticize that, you get the benefit of one news cycle where he's the hero and we're celebrating.
Because as you may recall, there were a lot of questions about the -- the -- I forget his name, the gun dealer.
SCIUTTO: Viktor Bout. Viktor Bout. Yes.
FINNEY: So, you know -- and we had to have both the positive and the negative when, really, it is thank God they're home. Because you know, being in -- particularly being in a Russian gulag is particularly horrendous. SCIUTTO: No question. It's a -- it's an extremely happy moment. And I
know, from speaking to those teams, the effort that they put in, and often without public acclaim. Right?
[06:05:07]
FINNEY: That's right.
SCIUTTO: They do it quite quietly, because they want to get these people home.
But Zolan, given that President Trump frequently criticized previous exchanges, American people have a right to know what was given in return.
ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Sure. And we're going to continue to be asking for details here in the days ahead, too. And especially since the president also yesterday forecasted that we may have more news in the days ahead, as well, as far as any sort of prisoner exchange -- prisoner exchanges here.
The thing that I'm also going to be asking, too, is one, it's very clear that Steve Witkoff is taking on a broader -- a broader role here.
SCIUTTO: The Mideast envoy.
KANNNO-YOUNGS: And beyond, just Mideast now. Right? I mean, also now moving towards Russia and Ukraine matters, too.
How does also this impact any potential talks that we see between the president and Zelenskyy, which he said may be coming up as well as this week, as well as any potential talks with Putin himself?
The president still refused to answer questions about whether he has talked to Putin, when he's talked to Putin recently, if he has. So that is something we'll also have to be watching, if that conversation comes.
SCIUTTO: Secretary of State Rubio, he was asked if Fogel's release could be a good sign in terms of these Ukraine negotiations. Here was his answer on that. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: It's a long way to go between here and there. It's not going to be easy. And -- and again, I don't want to claim that what's happening here tonight is in any way the first step towards that.
But I do think it's a good sign that the Russians were willing to do something in this regard, and hopefully we can build on that in the days to come.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: It looks like an iPhone interview there, I guess. A selfie interview.
KANNO-YOUNG: What was that? Yes.
SCIUTTO: Do we know the state of those negotiations and what exactly? I mean, the key question is what is what kind of pressure is the U.S. Putting, for instance, on Ukraine? And how far is Russia willing to go?
KANNO-YOUNGS: That's right, that's right. And I think it's also worth remembering that during the campaign, the president did say that he would essentially have this solved in 24 hours. And we have not seen that up until this point.
We also have not seen, really -- we're looking to see if the White House at this point -- yes, we've seen the pressure that they're willing to put on Ukraine. We know that Trump, that President Trump has been highly skeptical of U.S. aid, as well, saying that -- during the campaign that Ukraine should have cut a deal, you know, as well, even if that meant ceding territory for Russia.
But how much pressure is this White House willing to put on Russia itself, as well, when it comes to --
SCIUTTO: Given -- given that Russia invaded Ukraine?
KANNO-YOUNGS: That's right. I mean, the Ukrainian position --
SCIUTTO: And has killed many thousands of people.
KANNO-YOUNGS: -- is that -- the Ukrainian position is that, look, if we understand you want us to go to the negotiation table, but Russia is also a bad actor here.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
KANNO-YOUNGS: You know, Russia invaded Ukraine.
As you said, Matt, why won't President Trump say that in so many words? Russia invaded Ukraine. Certainly, the -- the accurate analysis of this war, of a Marco Rubio before he took on this position and others in Trump's administration. Why won't Trump simply say those words?
He often says it's a tragedy the war happened. People are dying on both sides. Why won't he say Russia invaded Ukraine, and that shall not stand?
GORMAN: I think what the -- I think Zolan hits on a good point, and I think -- I keep coming back to it from this administration in so many other points.
Whether again, like it's Colombia, Panama, the tariffs with Canada and Mexico.
I think what you're seeing now in this second Trump term is a far more confident Trump. He feels like he has kind of the reins on things. And so, he's reverting back to a lot of his business instincts.
And again, on a host of fronts. I think he views Ukraine like this, too. It's how can I -- what can I do to get leverage going in, get people in a room, or proverbial room, and then cut a deal and sell it?
And I think that is what he's essentially trying to do: is going into the traditional bargaining table, saying as little as possible and trying to cut a deal with whatever comes out.
SCIUTTO: And part of that deal, as we understand it, involves getting -- the U.S., getting access to Ukrainian rare earth material --
GORMAN: Yes, yes.
SCIUTTO: -- which seems to be the price that Trump is -- is demanding.
We do have an update. And this just into CNN: that the Kremlin confirms that a Russian citizen was released as part of the Fogel exchange. He does not say, Karen Finney, who that person was, but there was an exchange.
And well, frankly, as you know. Well, that's how these things tend to work.
FINNEY: Absolutely. Although just to this question about whether or not -- why won't Trump say -- it's sort of -- it's kind of the who won the 2020 election? You know, the election denialism.
You know, if you are on the Russian talking points, you don't talk about -- you don't say that Russia invaded Ukraine. You call it a special operation. Right?
And so, perhaps as part of the negotiations, Trump is saying -- is going to say, OK, I'm going to -- Putin, I'm going to go with your talking points, as part of the conversation.
But again, I mean, it would be interesting also to know who was released. Because, again, the level of importance of that individual to Russia could tell us something about, again, whether or not this is going to have any kind of impact on any negotiations.
SCIUTTO: On -- on the broader talks.
FINNEY: That's right.
SCIUTTO: Is it -- is it a sign of good faith, as the president said.
FINNEY: Correct.
KANNO-YOUNGS: The difficult thing here, too. You talk -- we talk about leverage. I mean, the Ukrainian position is, in order to have the most leverage in any type of potential negotiation, you need that U.S. aid. You need support. You also need the ability to continue to fight on the battlefield.
[06:10:10] SCIUTTO: And that's not just the view of Ukraine. That's the view of -- of America's allies in Europe, that without U.S. aid, Ukraine might very well lose the war.
All right. Stand by.
Straight ahead on CNN THIS MORNING, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, he is in Brussels this morning, headquarters of NATO, of course. How the new Trump administration is shifting responsibility for Ukraine onto NATO and the E.U.
Plus, a surprise appearance from the world's richest man, Elon Musk, taking center stage in the Oval Office. We're going to discuss live with Democratic Congressman Greg Landsman.
And President Trump not softening his Gaza takeover plan that, we should note, would force 2 million Palestinians out of their home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I say to Trump that we will die in our country. We are not prepared to abandon our country. Palestine is for Palestinians. We do not belong to any other country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:15:41]
SCIUTTO: Right now, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth meeting with his counterpart at NATO headquarters in Brussels, Belgium. On the agenda: Russia's war on Ukraine.
He's the first member of the new Trump administration to visit NATO and is expected to push the group and the E.U. to assume more responsibility, not just for Ukraine, but for Europe's security. And along the way, increase their defense spending.
Natasha Bertrand is live in Russia [SIC] -- Brussels.
And Natasha, I wonder. There was a great deal of concern in a second Trump administration that Trump might even leave NATO, potentially, or at least reduce U.S. involvement. Do European officials you speak with still have that concern?
NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They're definitely concerned about the U.S. pulling back, right, especially when it comes to U.S. support for Ukraine. And they have been bracing for that and anticipating for that.
But so far, you know, the readouts that we've been getting from officials that have been meeting with Hegseth here all morning have been fairly positive.
He's been meeting with several defense ministers here. He met with the U.K. defense minister. He met with the Danish defense minister, which was obviously interesting, given all of the interest in whether Trump is going to try to do something with Greenland.
He also met with Italy, and he's scheduled to meet here soon with Germany. So, he's making the rounds, introducing himself.
And no sign yet, of course, that there is any intention on the part of the U.S. to actually pull out of NATO or withdraw from NATO. What Hegseth really wants to convey to NATO allies is that they need to increase their defense spending, a long-time plea of the Trump administration, of course, dating back to the first Trump administration; as well as increase their support, their military support to the Ukrainians, because the U.S. does not want to carry that burden anymore, according to Trump administration officials.
And so, that is going to be on the agenda, particularly at the Ukraine defense contact group, which is going to be happening here later today, as well. Around 2:30 here local time, where Hegseth is expected to give opening remarks.
And he is not going to be chairing that meeting for the first time in almost three years. The U.S. is not going to be heading that meeting of a contact group that is aimed at funneling and coordinating that military assistance to Ukraine.
Instead, it's going to be the U.K.
So right there, you get a sense for how much the U.S. is trying to kind of pull back here and let Europe take the lead on this, something that the Europeans say, look, they're happy to do.
But the Ukrainians are a little bit more skeptical, saying, look, we of course, value our European allies, but without strong U.S. leadership, we're very afraid that the Russians are going to try to steamroll through this -- through this war and, of course, through any diplomatic negotiation that may take place in the future -- Jim.
SCIUTTO: Of course, the big test will be, are the Ukrainians comfortable with it? Do they feel safe with any security guarantees that might be included?
Natasha Bertrand in Brussels, thanks so much.
Still coming up after the break, quite a moment. Paul McCartney breaking out the hits for a small audience last night in New York. Would have loved to be inside the room there.
That and more in our morning roundup.
Plus, how Republicans are trying to push back against court orders, stopping some of President Donald Trump's plans from going into effect.
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[06:23:07] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): They've latched onto this new, shiny object called the rule of law. Well, we'd like to welcome them to the concept. It would be admirable if they hadn't spent the last four years with their heads buried in the sand while Biden literally trampled over the rule of law, with no objection.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Is that true? Are we nearing a constitutional crisis now? A number of President Donald Trump's actions during his first few weeks in office have already been paused by several courts.
And some of his closest allies, including the vice president, appear open, at least, to challenging the power of the judiciary. It's a trend that is concerning Trump's opponents, as well as legal scholars.
Republicans, they say they're just following exactly what former President Joe Biden did. Elon Musk sharing this screen grab of a post by former President Biden, bragging about his efforts to forgive student loan debt, despite a Supreme Court ruling.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Supreme Court blocked me from relieving student debt. But they didn't stop me. So far, I've relieved student debt for nearly 5 million Americans. A significant number of black borrowers. So, you can chase your dreams, start a family, buy your first home, start a business, and so much more.
And guess what? It grows the economy. It strengthens the economy. I'm going to keep it going.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: We should note: In his attempts to offer student loan forgiveness, former President Biden did not defy a court order. After the Supreme Court ruled against his student loan forgiveness plan, the Biden administration tried to find different ways to cancel student loan debts; specifically, they tried to use other student loan forgiveness programs that were separate from the program the Supreme Court struck down.
Joining me now if former U.S. attorney and CNN legal analyst Michael Moore.
Michael, good to have you this morning.
MICHAEL MOORE, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Good to see you, Jim.
SCIUTTO: So, can you explain that difference legally? Because the Biden moves regarding student debt have -- have become a talking point, a sort of whataboutism talking point, for Republicans when his moves, or at least talk about defying court orders, are criticized by his opponents.
MOORE: Yes, well, I am glad to be with you. And I think you're 100 percent right to point out, in fact, that Biden was not and did not violate court orders that came down. That's sort of been the threat were hearing from Trump and his team as they talk about this.
But when Biden tried to forgive student debt en masse to this wide group of people under the Heroes Act, which was a congressional act, the Supreme Court ultimately said that he had essentially overstepped his ability to control policy, and that he did not have the power to do that because Congress controls the purse and he could not come in with those type of sweeping changes and acts solely because he was the executive.
He did find other ways through other programs, some through service- oriented jobs, some through need-based things that he allowed. And he implemented policies that had been existing and expanded those somewhat to cover the student debt.
But he followed things that were already in place to, in fact, eliminate debt for some people.
That's the difference here, is that there's been this sort of sweeping Musk paintbrush that has gone over the government and shut things down that have already been congressionally decided and put in place, outside the power of the executive.
And so that's the distinction that some of my Republican friends, who seem to be getting the vapors, now that there's any question about the executive's authority. That's -- that's the difference that they're missing and why I would urge -- and I saw earlier in your clip, the speaker is pulling things out of thin air when he suggests somehow that there's a reticence or a recognition now --
SCIUTTO: OK.
MOORE: -- at least to the law.
SCIUTTO: It's notable that the Supreme Court, in that decision, noted Congress's constitutional power of the purse, as it were. Because the concern is here, right, that when you look, for instance, at USAID money -- this is both an agency, and it's funding that's already been approved, appropriated by acts of Congress.
And it was notable there are concerns that this administration might be attempting to lay the groundwork for impoundment. And I wonder, do you see that -- do you see that groundwork being laid here? And how might the court view that?
MOORE: I mean, I think there may be an effort to do that. I think they are -- are much more savvy sometimes than we give them credit for. And so, we hear things come out that essentially are setting the stage for what their next act might be.
You know, I think that when you look at what's happened, you've seen, what, 15 or 20 courts in various orders recently, or 15 or 20 orders that have come out, which has essentially said that this administration has so significantly overstepped the -- the courts have placed temporary injunctions, which means that things stop, that -- And that's a -- that's not a normal thing to happen.
Courts sometimes are reticent to -- to get involved at this time. But they've essentially said, look, the status quo has got to be here. We've got to have more evidence.
And you see that the administration has confused and conflated this idea that they have some type of mandate that exceeds the authority of the -- of the courts, that they believe that the electoral authority somehow exceeds the -- the court's authority. That's just purely a lack of understanding of both the law and the Constitution.
SCIUTTO: Well, looks like it might be tested in the courts. And we'll see how they rule, right up to the Supreme Court.
Michael Moore, always good to have you on.
MOORE: Great to be with you, Jim. Thank you so much.
SCIUTTO: Coming up on CNN THIS MORNING, four FEMA officials have been fired. Ahead, what the Homeland Security Department accused them of.
Plus, during President Trump's meeting with King Abdullah of Jordan, he was not backing down on his proposal to simply take over Gaza. Jordan making clear it won't accept that plan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING ABDULLAH, JORDAN: We cannot afford any more refugees. Our position is that we can rebuild Gaza without Gazans leaving Gaza.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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