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Paul Whelan is Interviewed about the Fogel Release; Vali Nasr is Interviewed about Gaza; Rep. Greg Landsman (D-OH) is Interviewed about Musk and DOGE; New Task Force on Declassification of Secrets. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired February 12, 2025 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:33:46]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: New this morning, CNN has learned some of the details surrounding the exchange for freed American teacher Marc Fogel from Russia. Fogel held prisoner in Russia for three years. The Kremlin has just confirmed a Russian citizen held in the U.S. was released as part of that exchange. It gave no other details, nor did President Trump. Trump did say another American held abroad could be released today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: What were the terms of this deal, Mr. President?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Very fair. Very, very fair. Very reasonable. Not like deals you've seen over the years. They were very fair.

REPORTER: What were they?

TRUMP: And I think that's going to lead - and where somebody else is being released tomorrow that you will know of.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now is Paul Whelan. He, himself, was wrongfully detained in Russia, held there for five and a half years.

Paul, thanks so much for joining this morning.

PAUL WHELAN, AMERICAN FREED AFTER YEARS IN RUSSIAN PRISON: Yes, good morning. My pleasure. Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: First, let me ask you your sense of what it feels like to wake up on your first day of freedom after years as a prisoner in Russia. What do you think Eric (ph) Fogel is feeling this morning?

WHELAN: Well, he's waking up in the first world after spending three and a half in the third world. [06:35:00]

SCIUTTO: Yes.

WHELAN: Everything will be new to him. Everything familiar will be just a surreal experience.

SCIUTTO: I'm sure.

What kind of support does someone like him need or should be getting at this point given the stresses? I mean one thing that always sticks in my mind, and this, I'm sure, was true for you, is that they never know how long they're going to be held, right, or if they will get out. And that that fear has to cause enormous stress.

WHELAN: It does. You know, it causes PTSD for all of us. The longer it goes on, the worse it is. He will need some social work psychology type counseling. He'll need medical and dental care. You know, the food in these camps is - is really bad, so he'll be malnourished. So, it will take him probably two years to actually get back to normal, as we say.

SCIUTTO: I'm sure. Is there - do you folks keep in touch somewhat? I mean, I know you've made friendships, relationships with - with Americans held even in other countries. Iran for instance. Is there something of a former hostage support group, right? Because no one knows better what you've been through than - than yourselves.

WHELAN: Actually, there is. There's a group of us that - that stay in touch. You know, Trevor Reed, Mark Bowden, a few others. You know, one of the - the Mikes from Canada, him also. We just get together sometimes in person. We chat on the phone. You know, if somebody needs to chat about what they're going through, you know, maybe they need some sort of help. We get together and do that.

But, yes, it's a - it's an exclusive club. It's kind of like the club of presidents, you know, there's only a few of us.

SCIUTTO: Yes, although, I imagine it's a club you don't really want to be a member of, right? Certainly not - not your own - your own choice.

There - there was a Russian released. We don't know the identity. And President Trump would not say who was released. There is, as you know, a concern, right, that because each of these releases depends on an exchange that countries such as Russia are incentivized to take the next American, right, and that someone else will be in danger soon. What's your read of that concern, and do you think it's a legitimate one?

WHELAN: It is a legitimate concern. The Russians hadn't taken anybody since 1986 when they arrested me, and they saw that it was quite profitable. They got back the merchant of death, who's back in Africa selling guns again. And, you know, it's - it's an issue that - that we have to address.

Deterrence is what I keep speaking with the government about. Coming up with ways to - to meaningfully deter, not with, you know, sanctions that don't work or sanctions that don't have any teeth, but meaningful deterrence.

Part of it is that we need - we need diplomatic relations with the countries that are doing this so that they will bring it to an end. And instead of using hostages, like me and - and Marc, you know, they'll use other political capital.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Well, listen, we're glad you're free, and certainly we're glad to see another American free in Eric (ph) Fogel this morning.

Thanks so much for joining and sharing your experience with us.

WHELAN: Yes, thanks very much. It's glad for the - for him to be home.

SCIUTTO: Us as well.

Well, President Trump is not backing down on his plans to simply take over Gaza during his meeting yesterday with the king of Jordan, King Abdullah. The president said the U.S. is simply going to take ownership.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is nothing to buy. It's Gaza. It's a war-torn area. We're going to take it. We're going to hold it. We're going to cherish it.

REPORTER: And, Mr. President, take it under what authority? It is sovereign territory.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

TRUMP: Under the U.S. authority.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Trump's plan, which would require the forced relocation of 2 million Palestinians, is not being well received by the Palestinians themselves.

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FATIMA ABU AL-AOUN, PALESTINIAN RESIDENT IN GAZA (through translator): I say to Trump that we will die in our country. We are not prepared to abandon our country. Palestine is for Palestinians. We do not belong to any other country.

ABU SAEB, PALESTINIAN RESIDENT OF GAZA (through translator): I urge you, President Trump, leave us alone and let us live. Let us rebuild Gaza. We can make it better and more beautiful than it used to be.

MOHAMMAD AL-RANTISI, PALESTINIAN RESIDENT OF GAZA (through translator): Palestine is for Palestinians. This is well known. Palestine was here before Trump, and it will be here after Trump. No one has the right to divide Palestine or Gaza or the West Bank.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining us now is Vali Nasr. He's a professor at Johns Hopkins University, former senior adviser at the State Department.

Vali, good to see you. Thanks so much for joining this morning.

VALI NASR, PROFESSOR, SCHOOL OF ADVANCED INTERNATIONAL STUDIES, JOHNS HOPKINS UNIV.: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: It's been remarkable to me to watch and hear from some in Washington a defense of this plan, right, to say, sure, U.S. take ownership, 2 million Palestinians can find homes elsewhere.

[06:40:01]

You know, better than having them go home to a place that has been so destroyed by war. That's easy to say in an air-conditioned studio in Washington. The Arab world has quite a different view. Can you describe that view right now, how they would perceive America taking over a piece of land in the Middle East and displacing its people?

NASR: Well, first of all, there is a shock and awe in the region. And there's sort of incredulity that President Trump could even think about this, that he feels like the United States essentially is going to occupy Arab land without any invitation by the locals, without consulting not only the people but even the governments in the region, that somehow he's going to solve what is now several decades problem with just essentially removing the population from Gaza and putting them somewhere else without recognizing that this has not worked, even when Palestinians moved into refugee camps in Lebanon, in Syria, in Egypt, in Gaza itself after 1948, after 1967, and over the years. And so, what they see is basically a catastrophe, not only for Palestinians, but also it would make it very difficult for this region to have an alliance with the United States. If the U.S. behaves in this manner, not only not consulting the region, but also taking steps that put the governments in the region at jeopardy, that angers the population in the region. And nobody sees this actually as a solution that would work.

SCIUTTO: Yes, you could see that, I think, in the Jordanian King Abdullah's face as he was asked about this while sitting next to President Trump in the Oval Office yesterday. I want to play how he responded in that moment, get your thoughts on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING ABDULLAH, JORDAN: We have to keep in mind that there is a - plan from Egypt and the Arab countries.

I think let's wait until the Egyptians can come and present to the president and not get ahead of ourselves.

Again, this is something that we, as Arabs, will be coming to - to the United States with something that we're going to talk about later.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Now, later, via Twitter, the king was more direct in expressing his opposition, as was his foreign minister on CNN last night. I mean, the question is, can Jordan and Egypt say no, and potentially, I suppose, bear the consequences because you could imagine Trump saying, well, if you don't, I'm just going to pull aid. And the aid is essential to these countries.

NASR: Absolutely. I mean he gave the perfect diplomatic answer in Washington, which is to punt the - the whole problem onto Egypt's lap and another meeting. And on Twitter, obviously, he was defiant in a way that would play to his audience and the audience in the Arab world that he went to Washington and he resisted.

But in reality, they are stuck between a stone and a hard place. First of all, even the legitimacy of their alliance with the United States is in question in the minds of their people. I mean what sort of an ally is the U.S. that has - not only doesn't consult them, but has no care for their security and stability and is basically treat them as a dumping ground for a population to be brought over there. And we also have to note that a majority of Jordanian population traces its ancestry to Palestine, and it has very strong feelings about Palestine. They have to note that the very stability of the monarchy in Jordan, the stability of Jordan itself, is in question. And I think Jordanians are shocked that the United States doesn't care. And I think the Egyptians are saying the same thing. The rest of the Arab world is saying the same thing. It is not just shock at America's support for Israel, which usually was the case, but it's actually how little it cares for the - for its Arab allies.

SCIUTTO: No question. And now concerns that annexation of the West Bank might be next.

Vali Nasr, we appreciate you laying it out so clearly. Former adviser to the State Department. Thanks for joining us this morning.

NASR: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next on CNN THIS MORNING, a new task force in Washington on the declassification of federal secrets as the FBI discovers more than 2,000 new files related to the assassination of JFK.

Plus, DOGE in defense mode now. Democratic Congressman Greg Landsman joins us live to discuss.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK: Some of the things that I say will be incorrect and - and should be corrected. So, nobody's going to bat a thousand. I mean any - you know, we will make mistakes, but we'll act quickly to correct any mistakes.

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[06:48:50]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: The people voted for major government reform. There should be no doubt about that. That was on the campaign. The president spoke about that at every rally. The people voted for major government reform. And that's what people are going to get. They're going to get what they voted for.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Something of an odd scene in the Oval Office. The world's wealthiest man there standing at the right hand of the world's most powerful man. Donald Trump and Elon Musk appearing together to defend their slash and burn approach to federal government. That effort, led by Musk's so-called Department of Government Efficiency, DOGE, has already resulted in massive cuts to multiple agencies and is now preparing to lay off perhaps hundreds of thousands of federal workers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ELON MUSK, HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY: We have this unelected, fourth unconstitutional branch of government, which is the bureaucracy, which has, in a lot of ways, currently, more power than any elected representative. And this is a - this is not something that people want.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: You might have mentioned, he's not elected either.

Yesterday's photo op also functioning as a display of unity in the face of quite public questions over whether the two men's egos can exist peacefully.

[06:50:03]

President Trump's position, sitting behind the Resolute Desk, seemingly a rebuke to the new "Time" magazine cover, which depicts - depicted Musk himself in that chair. But the two men showing a united front in both style and substance as Trump and Musk both made numerous claims of widespread fraud, abuse and corruption within the federal government, and Trump, once again, criticized federal judges who have issued temporary halts to parts of his agenda, which are now facing legal challenges.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have massive amounts of fraud that we caught. As I said, much is incompetence and much is dishonesty. We have to catch it. And the only way we're going to catch it is to look for it. And if a judge is going to say, you're not allowed to look for it, that's pretty sad for our country. I don't understand how it could even work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Joining me now to discuss is Representative Greg Landsman, Democrat of Ohio, a member of the House Energy and Commerce Committee.

Congressman, thanks so much for taking time this morning.

REP. GREG LANDSMAN (D-OH): Thanks for having me.

Now, Trump and Musk have painted quite a broad brush in terms of causing - calling spending, corruption, even when it's not corruption, right, it - some of it appears to be just spending they don't like. But they have enormous amount of power here.

I wonder, do Democrats have a plan to slow any of this down, or are - are you, as the party, effectively leaving it to the courts?

LANDSMAN: Well, there's a couple things. One is, the Congress is supposed to step up and check the - the executive. That's the art - you know, that's how the Constitution was set up. And so, you know, public opinion has to shift. And - and Democrats are going to have - you know, obviously, play a role in shifting public opinion to make sure that people understand what's going on here so that they start to call their Republican members of Congress, because they're in charge of the United States Congress. And Congress is supposed to check the executive and put guardrails in place.

But what you're seeing in Elon Musk is not just the world's richest man, but he is trying to become the first trillionaire ever. And he has, by being empowered by Trump, hacked into our data system, hacked into our payment system, and - and - and is purging the federal government. He stands to make so much money.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

LANDSMAN: He already has made, you know, billions, tens of billions of dollars on federal contracts. And the markets know this. And so, his ability to get inside and create this kind of chaos and - and move money, potentially to him and to his companies, will result in him and his net worth going up even higher. I mean he - you know, since the election, $200 billion in new - new wealth for Elon Musk. And so now the American people are dealing with higher prices and the kind of political corruption, potentially, that is incredibly damaging.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

LANDSMAN: And so, you know, for Democrats, they have to be - or we have to be very clear about what's happening.

SCIUTTO: One thing he hasn't, at least I'm not aware of it, is - is looked at to see if any of his large federal contracts involved wasteful spending. We'll see if that - if that ends up one of his targets as well.

I want to turn to Russia's war on Ukraine because the president said, in light of the release of Marc Fogel, that that could be a sign of good faith that might lead to some progress in negotiations over ending the war. You have met with a bipartisan group of members of Congress on Ukraine. And as - as you know, and as folks watching may know, there are many Republicans who are quite vocal supporters, or have been of Ukraine.

Are they confident? Is that group, that bipartisan group, confident that President Trump is going to stand for a just resolution of the war from the perspective of Ukrainians?

LANDSMAN: No, I don't think so. I mean, that's my sense. So, I'm not speaking for anyone else. But, you know, the - the folks that we've met with were members of the parliament in - in Ukraine and they talked about the - the strategic positions that Russia has taken, how valuable that land is in terms of minerals and resources, and what's going to happen to that land. They also talked about the tens of thousands of children that have been taken from them.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

LANDSMAN: And now those children are in the custody of, in some instances, Russian oligarchs.

SCIUTTO: The kidnaping.

LANDSMAN: And if our State Department does not act, that would be a huge betrayal, not just to eastern Europe and - and - and global stability, but to the American people, who have no patience for that kind of thing. And so, my sense is, is that Congress will put pressure, ultimately, hopefully, on the administration to ensure that Putin is - is stopped, does not advance further.

[06:55:02]

And, you know, the idea that they would sort of split up land or he would get Ukraine just means that there would be a larger war, a broader war in eastern Europe and Europe in general, which will be incredibly costly to the American people.

SCIUTTO: I mean the question is, would Russia take that signal as carte blanche or an invitation, right -

LANDSMAN: Correct.

SCIUTTO: To claim the next piece of land, whether that be in Ukraine or elsewhere in Europe?

LANDSMAN: You don't appease Putin. You - that is not a path to go down. We did that before in the 40s and the late 30s, where we tried to appease Hitler. It did not work. It won't work with Putin.

SCIUTTO: Yes. There's a - that Churchill quote that an appeaser is someone who feeds the crocodile expecting to be its last meal.

LANDSMAN: Correct.

SCIUTTO: Congressman Greg Landsman, thanks so much for joining. Appreciate it.

LANDSMAN: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: We are now 55 minutes past the hour. Here's your morning roundup.

A recall for some canned tuna products sold at stores such as Kroger, Walmart and Costco. Officials say there was a defect in making the pull tab on the lids, and if it cannot seal properly, there's a risk of food leaking or becoming contaminated - contaminated with botulism. That's bad. The brands include Genova, Van Camp's and some store brands as well.

The Homeland Security Department says it fired four FEMA officials over payments that the agency sent to house migrants in New York City. The department said, without evidence, the officials sent the payments without approval from leadership.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was incredible. This is actually my tenth time seeing Paul McCartney. I have no words for it.

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SCIUTTO: Paul McCartney put on a surprise concert in Manhattan last night at the Bowery Ballroom. It holds about 600 people, 600 lucky people. He announced the show earlier in the day on Instagram. People stood in line in the cold to get tickets. Just one per person. They were sold out within 30 minutes.

Federal secrets could soon become known. There is a new task force on Capitol Hill focused on declassifying secrets.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JAMES COMER (R-KY): For far too long the American people have had reasonable questions of what their government, which they fund every day, keeps hidden about certain issues. And for far too long the federal government has not answered these questions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: The FBI just announced it discovered 2,400 new files related to President John F. Kennedy's assassination following an order from President Trump to release classified documents. Other files the task force plans to include on the assassinations of RFK and the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Jeffrey Epstein's list, the origins of Covid, the 9/11 terror attack, and, a favorite, UFOs.

My panel is back.

I mean, what do you think of all this? I mean this is like the land of the conspiracy theory, right? The conspiracy theory that won't die. Is this, Matt, going to help answer those questions or just add more fuel? MATT GORMAN, FORMER TIM SCOTT PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN SENIOR ADVISER AND

REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, we'll see. I think around JFK, I think what a lot of this centers around most likely is - is a man named George Joannides (ph), who ran a lot of CIA covert action, especially around Miami and New Orleans, had a lot of contact with Lee Harvey Oswald.

Now, look, I'm pretty bearish that anything that will break open the JFK assassination is going to be sitting into some file in Washington, D.C., or somewhere else. But I think it's good because I think overclassification in our government is a major problem. The fact that we're still finding over, what, 60 years after the assassination, there's just 2,400 documents laying around somewhere is a good thing.

SCIUTTO: True. I mean, here's the thing, Trump himself has waded into these waters, going so far as to accuse Ted Cruz's father of somehow being - and baselessly being involved.

GORMAN: Yes.

SCIUTTO: I mean it's part of a broader, no one trusts the government kind of thing.

KAREN FINNEY, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Absolutely. And to me this feels more like, this is a way to keep that shiny object tinkling bright for those of Trump's supporters who are into this, right?

SCIUTTO: Right.

FINNEY: That there are reasons not to trust the government. It's also a way to deflect from what I think will be real questions about the potential for corruption, like 32 investigations throughout 11 agencies. "The New York Times" has a great piece on it today, just involving Elon Musk. I mean, we've got 11 other billionaires in the cabinet. And I think it's a - again, it's a - it's an effort to, you know, say, look over here while maybe other things are going on over here.

SCIUTTO: And then it's a consistency question. Transparent on some things and not others, which is - which is legitimate.

And, Zolan, I mean, there are a lot of questions.

I will say, in that list, declassifying details on Covid origins, I think, could be -

GORMAN: It's a good thing.

SCIUTTO: Quite valuable.

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Absolutely. I mean that's something that, you know, the public has, obviously, made clear that there's great interest in, and it could lead to information that could hopefully prevent the next pandemic as well if you made that public.

I do think it's important to say, too, I don't - I wouldn't want the public to - to come off with the impression that the government has basically hid all of these secrets around this tragedy.

[07:00:01]

1992 law says that within 25 years the government should release documents related to the tragedy, the assassination of President Kennedy, 320,000 documents released. So, out of 320,000 documents, 99 percent released so far.

SCIUTTO: And, listen, there's a reason they want to keep some of the secret, sources and methods one of them.

FINNEY: Yes.

SCIUTTO: You don't want to expose sources in the way that the CIA gathers its information.

Thanks so much to the panel, as always. Thanks to all of you for joining us. I'm Jim Sciutto, CNN NEWS CENTRAL starts right now.