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Hegseth: NATO Membership For Ukraine Is An Unrealistic Objective; Mass Firings Underway At Federal Agencies; Trump: Talks To End Russia-Ukraine War Will Start "Immediately." Aired 5:30-6a ET
Aired February 13, 2025 - 05:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[05:33:30]
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Five thirty-three a.m. here on the East Coast. Here's a live look at Milwaukee, glowing this morning. Good morning, everyone. I'm Jim Sciutto in for Kasie Hunt. Great to have you with us.
Right now Defense Sec. Pete Hegseth is in Brussels meeting with NATO leaders, and he is doubling down on his latest comments regarding Russia's ongoing invasion of Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, DEFENSE SECRETARY: There is no betrayal there. There is a recognition that the whole world and the United States is invested and interested in peace -- a negotiated peace. As President Trump has said, stopping the killing. And so that will require both sides recognizing things they don't want to.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: The fact is many Ukrainians see betrayal coming.
These comments come after President Trump said negotiations to end the war would begin soon, but those negotiations between President Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin. No mention of the Ukrainian leader.
Yesterday Hegseth made it clear that a key piece of these negotiations would include Ukraine giving up part of its sovereign territory.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HEGSETH: We want, like you, a sovereign and prosperous Ukraine but we must start by recognizing that returning to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: By the way, those borders were changed by not one but two Russian invasions.
[05:35:00] He also said the U.S. does not believe that membership for Ukraine in NATO is realistic.
Joining me now is CNN correspondent Clare Sebastian. She's in Brussels. Clare, I wonder when you speak to NATO officials there, European leaders, diplomats, et cetera, do they see now the U.S. preparing to abandon Ukraine? Is that how they read these comments?
CLARE SEBASTIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're certainly not saying that, Jim. We've had sort of a collective response from leaders yesterday which was to say very little. Not to engage with questions on the rhetoric coming out of the Trump administration. And not to engage with the idea that those -- that those sort of concessions, as it sounded like, that Pete Hegseth made in terms of offering up potentially some of Moscow's key demands, that they were not in capitulation to Moscow.
So there was a sort of paralysis yesterday as they tried to deal with these unexpected remarks.
I think what we're seeing today is a hardening of the response. NATO officials are coming out and saying look, nothing can be decided for Ukraine without Ukraine. We heard that from the secretary general. We've heard that from the U.K. defense secretary.
A NATO official just now told us that NATO membership is not something that can be necessarily negotiated with Russia and that for them the position remains the same as decided in 2008 that Ukraine is on a path to NATO membership, and it was firmed up at the Washington summit last year. That path is irreversible.
But we did actually hear some criticism of Hegseth's comments interestingly coming from the second-biggest donor to Ukraine in dollar terms -- from Germany. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORIS PISTORIUS, GERMAN DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): It's regrettable, and I'm saying this too. This is part of the truth. The Trump administration has already made public concessions to Putin before the negotiations have even begun.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SEBASTIAN: So that was sort of the clearest criticism that we've heard from NATO members. Others are continuing to try to argue that there actually isn't a contradiction with the NATO position that Hegseth's comments talk about -- you know, no NATO is part of a settlement. That doesn't mean necessarily that they can't continue down the path towards future membership which, of course, no one had ever claimed was imminent.
But this is a very fine line, of course -- as you know, Jim -- for these countries. On the one hand they do want to reaffirm their support for Ukraine, but on the other they don't want to risk their bilateral ties with the U.S. We've already got impending tariffs, which they're trying to grapple with. And they don't want the appearance of disunity in NATO as we know that Moscow and other countries frankly are watching very closely. So an extremely fine line they're treading here.
And major questions remain, some of which, of course, we may get answers for in Munich when more U.S. officials will be there meeting with Zelenskyy, among others.
SCIUTTO: Yeah. I mean, they may want to hide the disagreement but it's quite a public one over the future of Ukraine and it seems to be coming out right now.
Clare Sebastian in Brussels. Thanks so much.
We do have this news just in to CNN. Hamas says that it will not now release hostages as planned on Saturday. Earlier this week Hamas threatened to postpone the next hostage release, accusing Israel of violating the ceasefire deal.
President Trump urged Israel to cancel the deal and "let all hell break out" if Hamas had followed through on that threat -- something Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu echoed.
Now turning to this. A major legal victory for the Trump administration and its efforts to shrink the size of the federal workforce. A federal judge is now allowing the so-called deferred resignation offer to federal employees to proceed. It gives workers an option to leave their jobs but keep getting paid through the end of September.
According to the Office of Personnel Management, so far, about 75,000 people have accepted that package -- close to four percent of the roughly two million federal employees who received that offer.
Additionally, CNN has learned that mass firings are now underway at federal agencies. So far, probationary employees at the Small Business Administration and Department of Education have been impacted. A full scope of the firings not yet clear.
It comes as President Trump and Elon Musk's Department of Government Efficiency -- (DOGE) as it's known -- worked to overhaul the inner workings of the federal government -- shrink it -- which includes completely dismantling one department, the Department of Education.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: How soon do you want the Department of Education to be closed?
DONALD TRUMP, (R) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Oh, I'd like it to be closed immediately. Look, the Department of Education's a big con job. We're ranked -- so they rank the top 40 countries in the world. We're ranked number 40th, but we're ranked number one in one department -- cost per pupil.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Joining me now is Axios senior contributor Margaret Talev. Good to have you on this morning.
MARGARET TALEV, SENIOR CONTRIBUTOR, AXIOS, DIRECTOR, INSTITUTE FOR DEMOCRACY, JOURNALISM AND CITIZENSHIP, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY: Thank you.
SCIUTTO: Thanks for coming in.
[05:40:00]
TALEV: Thanks, Jim.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask you -- let me understand the difference here between the firings now underway --
TALEV: Yeah.
SCIUTTO: -- and this buyout deal that allows people to leave their jobs but get paid through September because you have two different things going on here right now.
TALEV: That's right, and the first paved the way for the second. And what the judge did was not to say -- did not -- did not rule on the legality of this buyout but ruled that the people who tried to block it didn't have enough standing.
SCIUTTO: Enough standing, yeah.
TALEV: That the unions didn't have standing.
So what does that mean? That means that potentially there is an avenue to challenge it legally; it just couldn't be the people who --
SCIUTTO: Who would have standing.
TALEV: I think that's a great question.
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
TALEV: And it sounds like the unions of folks who brought it are trying to figure that out right now.
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
TALEV: But, I mean, perhaps employees -- although if the employee didn't take the buyout why would they need standing? So I think it's a very interesting legal question.
But now that proceeds part two, which is going to be massive layoffs. There's already been an order signed. This is already underway. There will be litigation around that too. What will happen? How far will it go? How long will it take? What's the recourse in the meantime?
The goal was to get between five and 10 percent of the federal workforce to take that -- the buyout offer.
SCIUTTO: Right, and right now at four percent.
TALEV: Yeah, they fell short of that. Usually, in any given year the stats tell us around five percent leave through attrition --
SCIUTTO: Um-hum.
TALEV: -- but then only by February, OK? So it's entirely likely that even if there weren't mass layoffs that --
SCIUTTO: Right.
TALEV: -- more than five percent would leave this year.
But I think the questions now are, like, where will these layoffs take place? Where will the impacts be? And I think for many of the Americans who are looking at this thinking this is good -- the bureaucracy is --
SCIUTTO: Um-hum.
TALEV: -- you know, bloated, it's all these fat cats in Washington -- they may or may not know that most federal workers work outside of Washington. I think it's something like four out of five. Like, it is --
SCIUTTO: Wow.
TALEV: -- the overwhelming majority.
SCIUTTO: Where is it most likely that Americans watching right now will feel the loss of those workers? Where -- in what department might they, or agency might they notice there's no one there to, I don't know, sign the checks for payments, et cetera -- things like that.
TALEV: Yeah. It's really interesting because depending on how this all shakes out it could be things you don't expect. It could be, like, a benefit that you need to get or your family's trip to a national park.
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
TALEV: It may not be all within the Department of Education or USAID --
SCIUTTO: Um-hum.
TALEV: -- or if it is USAID, it may be something that would impact people close to home, like farmers, as opposed to a faraway person who is not an American living in another country.
So I think -- I think most Americans who are all on board with this are on board with it because of their views that their taxes are too high or that the bureaucracy --
SCIUTTO: Um-hum.
TALEV: -- doesn't do things. As the year goes on our maybe next year when the true effects of this are felt --
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
TALEV: -- it will just be like a huge shortage of staffing. Like, under the plans right now for every person who gets laid off I think the plan is something like you can only replace one person out of every four people.
SCIUTTO: Right.
TALEV: So this will have a real impact on --
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
TALEV: -- staffing across government.
SCIUTTO: And, of course, the next target is federal spending I think in Medicare. Medicaid and possibly Medicare as well.
TALEV: Yeah, for sure.
SCIUTTO: And we'll see what the impact is.
Margaret Talev, thanks so much.
TALEV: Yeah, thanks.
SCIUTTO: Straight ahead on CNN THIS MORNING, after a crushing Super Bowl defeat is Travis Kelce now thinking about retiring? CNN sports update is next.
Plus, the future of Ukraine hanging in the balance -- its very survival as a country -- as President Trump declares talks to end the war in Ukraine will begin immediately, but between the U.S. and Russia.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Do you view Ukraine as an equal member of this peace process?
TRUMP: Um --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL)
[05:48:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: Well, I think Putin couldn't be happier. I'll tell you; they're drinking vodka straight out of the bottle in the Kremlin tonight. It was a great day for Moscow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: "A great day for Moscow." What about Ukraine?
After a 90-minute phone call between President Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin those two leaders agreed to meet and begin negotiations immediately to end the war in Ukraine, but apparently without Ukraine's participation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: Freezing out President Zelenskyy out of this process a bit, isn't there -- isn't there a danger of that?
TRUMP: No, I don't think so as long as he's there. But yeah, at some point you're going to have to have elections too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: What's he talking about there?
President Trump and his Defense Sec. Pete Hegseth are already ruling out NATO membership for Ukraine and also warning the Ukrainians not to expect to recover territory taken by force by Russia.
Here was President Volodymyr Zelenskyy's response.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): I don't think that this door to NATO is ever truly open. I've always said that. We wanted it very much and we were constantly told about the open-door policy. And you know that we know the policy of the United States of America -- the previous administration's policy for all these years and the current administration with regard to NATO. Nobody is inviting us to NATO yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCIUTTO: Joining us now live from Kyiv is Ukrainian Parliamentor -- Parliament member Kira Rudik. Good to have you back. Thanks so much for joining.
KIRA RUDIK, UKRIANIAN MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, LEADER OF UKRAINE'S "GOLOS" POLITICAL PARTY (via Webex by Cisco): Hello, Jim, and thank you so much for having me.
SCIUTTO: I wonder, do you hear in President Trump's comments yesterday and the comments of the defense secretary that the U.S. is preparing to abandon Ukraine?
RUDIK: Well, we are, indeed, concerned with what we heard. However, we are trying to take it all as the surrounding discussions, hoping to see some clear steps on what is going to happen from the U.S. side. And at the Munich conference, I guess we will have more concrete information.
[05:50:00]
Of course, we are not happy with the fact that there is isolation of President Putin has finished and that there was this call with President Trump. But we, of course, are also concerned that the responsibility to support Ukraine is being put on our European partners and we don't hear that our European partners are really ready to accept this responsibility.
SCIUTTO: So --
RUDIK: So Jim, the key question is rather from Ukrainian people. Today they were asking me, like, what have we done wrong? Like, where did --
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
RUDIK: -- we go wrong in our attempts -- in our fight and the values that we are fighting for and the steps that we are taking every single? And I do not have a good answer to that.
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
What is Ukraine's plan B? If the U.S. pulls back, as President Trump seems to be indicating, and might even exclude Ukraine from those peace negotiations, and if Europe can't fill that gap, what does Ukraine do, or is it in a position then to lose the war?
RUDIK: Oh, Jim, we are right now at the very similar position that we were in 2022 when we were not a member of negotiations about Ukraine when it seemed that everybody will be decided behind our backs. It did not happen, and we were able to show the world that we are ready to fight for our freedom and surprise everyone who said that we will fall in two or three days.
Right now we continue fighting. We are still hoping that the resources to continue supporting Ukraine will be found within their frozen Russian assets, which are 300 billion euros that are being stored right now in the Belgium Euroclear fund.
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
RUDIK: And we strongly believe that this is the missing resource that we can use to cover for the expenses of Ukraine's defense.
SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this because you heard President Trump's comment there saying "...and then Ukraine will have to have elections." That caught my attention there because Trump has often publicly criticized the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy.
Do you believe Trump wants Zelenskyy gone?
RUDIK: Well, I have no information about that. But I can tell you clearly that it is very hard -- almost possible to conduct the elections right now when we have around a million people serving in our army --
SCIUTTO: Yeah.
RUDIK: -- and we have at least eight million people abroad. And, of course, Russia will have a huge influence and try to influence the next Ukrainian elections. So the sequence needs to be first, end of the war and second, elections.
SCIUTTO: Kira Rudik, as I always say when I speak to you, I wish you peace and safety. Thanks for joining us.
RUDIK: Thank you, and glory to Ukraine.
SCIUTTO: Well, time now for something very different, sports. Fresh off a painful defeat in the Super Bowl, Kansas City Chiefs star Travis Kelce is opening up about retirement.
Coy Wire has this morning's CNN sports update. So do we think we saw him play his last game?
COY WIRE, CNN SPORTS ANCHOR: It could very well be, Jim. Let's talk some sports ball.
Travis Kelce has played 12 seasons in the NFL. The Super Bowl marked his 200th game of his career. Yesterday he did not rule out retirement. It's a big question going on in the sports world.
He broke Jerry Rice's record for most career Super Bowl receptions on Sunday, Jim, but he was a nonfactor against Philly. He had just four catches and 39 yards.
And on his New Heights podcast with his brother Jason, the 10-time Pro Bowler admitted that hanging up the cleats is a possibility -- listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRAVIS KELCE, TIGHT END, KANSAS CITY CHIEFS: I know everybody wants to know whether or not I'm playing next year and right now I'm just kicking everything down the road. I'm kicking every can I can down the road and I'm not making any crazy decisions. I think I'm going to take some time to figure it out. And I think I owe it to my teammates that if I do come back that it's going to be something that -- it's a wholehearted decision.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WIRE: All right, to the NBA for the second game of the Lakers' Luka- LeBron era. And Luka showing some razzle-dazzle against the Jazzle, Jim. Slick dish to Rui Hachimura. Look at that. Rui led the Lakers with 19.
But how about this one? Luka driving to the rack -- behind the back to Austin Reaves for a three is money. Sixteen points for Luka in just 23 minutes.
LeBron had 18. It wasn't enough. Salt Lake City steamrolls L.A. 131- 119 snapping the Lakers' six-game win streak.
Utah's Markkanen led the way with a game-high 32.
Check out the overtime thriller at Madison Square Garden, Knicks and Hawks. Karl-Anthony Towns becoming just the fifth Knick ever with back-to-back 40-point games. He's on a heater. He scored 44 in this one.
But here come the Hawks. Late in the fourth from the logo, Jim, Trae Young with three of his 38 points on the night. And with less than 10 seconds to go, Georges Niang, bang!
[05:55:00]
The Hawks tie it up eventually there and send it to O.T., but that's where New York rises up. Jalen Brunson giving New York the one-point lead and nailing the coffin. Brunson scored 36 in the 149-148 win.
And here we go. A big payday for All-Star infielder Alex Bregman. According to multiple reports, the free agent agreeing to join the Red Sox on a three-year, $120 million deal. The 30-year-old spent his entire nine-year career with the Astros helping them win two World Series. Bregman is expected to move to second base with the Sox. So we shall see how that affects their chances of making a good run at the postseason.
SCIUTTO: Yeah. I don't understand the Mavs letting Doncic go.
WIRE: Hmm.
SCIUTTO: I just don't. Seeing him play in L.A. right now. Anyway, I'm sure they're going to miss him.
WIRE: Yeah, no doubt. They did get a win last night without him. The crowd rallied around them. They're trying to -- they love their team, let alone who the individual players are.
SCIUTTO: I hear you.
Coy Wire, thanks so much.
WIRE: You got it.
SCIUTTO: In our next hour on CNN THIS MORNING reshaping the federal government. President Trump's big buyout win as firings are now beginning across multiple agencies.
Plus, Kash Patel inching closer to confirmation as the head of the FBI. Democrats Congressman Glenn Ivey -- he's going to go -- join me to discuss that and more.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. GLENN IVEY (D-MD): James Brown, one of my favorite performers, had a song called "The Big Payback" (sic). There's a place for that and funk on the dance floor but not at the FBI. (END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL)
