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Ezra Levin is Interviewed about Protests Planned against Trump and Musk; Trump Administration Fires NSA Director; China Imposes Tariffs on U.S.; TikTok Ban Looms. Aired 6:30-7a ET
Aired April 04, 2025 - 06:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, THE LATE SHOW WITH STEPHEN COLBERT": Today's smoldering economic crater incinerated everything from crude oil to big tech stocks. The only company doing well, the proud folks at downarrow.com.
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AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Stocks did suffer their biggest one-day wipeout since 2020.
Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for joining me here on CNN THIS MORNING.
It is half past the hour, if you are getting ready. And here is what's happening right now.
Just moments ago, China announced they are striking back against U.S. tariffs. China imposing 34 percent tariffs on all imports from the United States. That's going to start on April 10th. Right now the U.S. is putting tariffs that total 54 percent on Chinese goods.
And how will markets react to the jobs report? That's coming out in just a few hours. Experts believe the March report on the labor market will show 135,000 jobs added, and unemployment holding steady.
And today there is actually a court hearing involving the Maryland father who was mistakenly deported, sent to a super prison in El Salvador. Officials said it was an administrative error. You're looking at a photo of him from court documents and also inside the prison. The White House has claimed that he cannot be returned because he's now in El Salvador's custody.
And, nationwide, there are protests planned tomorrow against President Trump and Elon Musk. One of the groups organizing these mass demonstrations, they say that more than half a million people have signed up. They're actually calling it "hands off" with around 1,200 events scheduled in all 50 states. The protests are being fueled by anger over what organizers and allies are calling a hostile takeover of the government.
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DEIRDRE SCHIFELING, ACLU CHIEF POLITICAL AND ADVOCACY OFFICER: Public courage is the solution. Public courage. We can't wait for others to lead. What will make Congress stand up, what will make university presidents stand up, corporate CEOs and big law partners stand up, is when we show them that we, together, demand it. We have to show them our power.
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CORNISH: Joining me now to talk about all of this, Ezra Levin, the co- executive director of Indivisible, one of the groups behind these protests.
Ezra, thanks for joining the show. Good morning.
EZRA LEVIN, CO-EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, INVISIBLE: Hey, good morning, Audie.
CORNISH: Can you talk about what you're hoping to accomplish? Because for many years, especially during the pandemic, we saw mass protests, right, over police reform, over racism, and even anti-lockdown protests. So, what do you think the value is of what you're going to do on Saturday?
LEVIN: Yes, it's - it's a good question, Audie, because we don't want to just do something for the sake of doing something. We really all should be asking ourselves, how is this going to have an impact? How is this going to change anything? And I think we've got to answer this on two levels when we're talking about what is the point of political protest?
One, there's actually a fair amount of political science research that looks at the impact of mass protests in off years on the outcomes of midterm elections the following year. We saw this in 2009 and 2010, the mass protests that led to a wipeout for Democrats in 2010. We then saw this again in 2017 and 2018 that led to the biggest blue wave margins in the history of the republic, with the Democrats taking back the House under the - the first Trump administration.
But I actually -
CORNISH: I mean what - can I jump in here, Ezra?
LEVIN: Yes. Oh, yes.
CORNISH: I think one of the things I want to ask is, did it also lead to the backlash that were - political backlash that kind of propelled Trump back in office?
LEVIN: I - no, I don't think that the protests of 2017 against the repeal of the Affordable Care Act led to Donald Trump re-winning the election in 2024. I would point to a failure of Merrick Garland and others to hold Trump accountable for his attempt to overthrow American democracy that led to him ultimately being able to come back.
I think if you look around our country's history and the world at creeping (ph) authoritarianism.
[06:35:01]
The only solution to pushing back against those authoritarians who are coming after our rights is mass, peaceful, public protests. And that's not me saying that. That's folks like Timothy Snyder, who's an expert on authoritarianism, or Heather Cox Richardson, an historian that's focused on this.
CORNISH: Yes. Also, we've seen this White House is willing to go after people who - who protest. You've also drawn the ire of the president and other Republicans.
LEVIN: Yes.
CORNISH: Elon Musk called the organization, quote, "criminals," claiming that you're supporting the vandalism of Tesla dealerships.
How do you respond to this? What are your concerns about the administration's response?
LEVIN: Look, I - it's bogus. Obviously, we've been organizing for the better part of a decade, and non-violent protest has been a - a core foundational part of what we do. We show up at members of Congress' offices or at town halls to tell them to vote the right way. We tell them to start showing up for their constituents.
This is American democracy. This is how it works. But it's no surprise that folks who are worried about public backlash to a deeply unpopular agenda are threatening peaceful protests. That doesn't come from a place of strength. It comes from a place of weakness. Which is why I'm not for, first and foremost, thinking about the 2026 elections now. I'm thinking about 2025 and how we can safeguard American democracy now.
CORNISH: Yes.
LEVIN: And the answer to that is, we have strength in numbers. We all have to show up in this moment.
CORNISH: One last thing. You've had some choice words for the Democratic Party, saying that it's hard to build a unified opposition to Trump when your party is despised and led by the least popular political figure in the country. Referring to Chuck Schumer.
Is so much of this a response to a lack of leadership? Do you think it's about Schumer? Do you think it's about one person?
LEVIN: Great question. What you're getting at is, who is the target of this protest? One is, yes, it's MAGA, it's Trump, it's Musk. We want to demonstrate to them that they don't have popular support. But another target are our leaders. People like Chuck Schumer, who surrender to the Republicans in Congress, aren't giving their constituents what they want.
We saw Cory Booker stand up in the Senate and break the record for the longest filibuster ever - ever given. Why did he do that? Why did he do that? He told us why. He told us why. He said that he heard from his own constituents that they want to see him fight back. And he got creative. He did it. We need more Cory Bookers and fewer Schumers. And if we want that, as constituents, we've got to show up and demand it.
Indivisible. We're not an arm of the Democratic Party. My goal is not to help the Democratic Party. My goal is to build a unified opposition to an authoritarian takeover of our country.
CORNISH: Ezra Levin, co-executive director of Indivisible, thanks for being with us this morning.
We want to talk about the news overnight. A major shakeup in the U.S. intelligence community. The Trump administration fired the director and deputy director of the National Security Agency, according to lawmakers on the intelligence committees and former officials. It's not clear why they were let go, but it happened after a meeting with far-right activist Laura Loomer. The White House ended up firing at least three staffers on the National Security Council and other officials. A source tells CNN, Loomer came to the White House on Wednesday with a list of about a dozen people she claimed weren't loyal to the president's agenda.
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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Laura Loomer is a very good patriot. She is a very strong person.
REPORTER: Did she have anything to do with the NSA aides who were ousted?
TRUMP: No. No. We were going to let go of people. People that we don't like, or people that we don't think can do the job, or people that may have loyalties to somebody else.
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CORNISH: President Trump denies that she had a part in the decision.
Bringing back the group chat.
And, Jim Messina, you - you were like excited about this during the break.
JIM MESSINA, FORMER OBAMA 2012 CAMPAIGN MANAGER, CEO, MESSINA GORUP AND FORMER WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF, OBAMA ADMINISTRATION: Right.
CORNISH: You've got some concerns. What are they?
MESSINA: This really pisses me off. This this -
CORNISH: OK. MESSINA: This is ridiculous. I've been in the White House Situation Room for these discussions. What you realize in that room is there are no good choices. There are choices that get people killed. And what you want around you are the best career, foreign service and national security people advising you on these decisions. And to say that these people were fired because they weren't loyal to the president, Audie, that's not their job. Their job is to be loyal to the United States of America and give their best advice. And letting Laura Loomer, someone who said that 9/11 was an inside job, letting her decide who those officials are is beyond terrible behavior, and it continues to go to this overarching theme of the Trump administration that we're letting these right-wing fringe people make decisions about our national security, and they shouldn't be anywhere in those arenas.
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CORNISH: OK, so, Jim, you said a couple of things here I want to underscore. You've been in the Situation Room -
MESSINA: Yes.
CORNISH: That you think career officials are actually who you want in that situation, and that loyalty is not the ideal credential.
MESSINA: Correct.
CORNISH: Rob, I want to turn to you because whether or not we have the exact specifics here on her role. It's not denied her influence. So, what's the point of your cabinet? What's the point of your National Security Council if, you know, kind of a random on the internet can get a meeting and just tell you what they think?
ROB BLUEY, PRESIDENT AND EXECUTIVE EDITOR, "THE DAILY SIGNAL": Well, President Trump listens to a lot of different voices. Let's - let's face it, people who are working for his administration and people who are on the outside. And I think that that's probably one of the benefits that allows him to keep in touch with the American people and what the pulse is, Audie.
CORNISH: But does that mean he has confidence in the people he's working with? It sounds like not if he's still doing loyalty tests.
BLUEY: One of the things that he learned from his first term, and I agree with Jim on this point, that you do want the best people in the room, but you also don't want people in the room who are actively working against what your agenda is and what you're trying to accomplish. And I think that that's what Sergio Gor (ph), and the presidential personnel office, is trying to do with the people they hire for this administration. They've made - they're on a record pace in terms of bringing in people to serve in this administration, which is a far change from what they did during that first term. And so, yes, they're not always going to be in that box that President Trump is going to want. And that's why I think he fired these individuals.
CORNISH: Yes. When Loomer was on the plane during the election, everyone got all kind of fired up. What is she doing there? And there was a conversation about gatekeeping and the job of the chief of staff and who has the presidents ear. How are you seeing all this, the way this chapter is unfolding?
JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: So, this chapter reminds me of chapters in the first Trump administration, where you had people getting access to the Oval Office, that the more traditional professional staff was concerned about. And it was always, remember, we always used to talk about the adults in the room. And the adults in the room would keep these people at bay or wouldn't allow them in.
Well, that's not something that's - that's - I mean that - that is very Trump one. You're not hearing the open concern in the same way. Yes, you heard it on the campaign trail that senior staff really trying to keep the kind of fringe figures away. But that doesn't seem to be the strategy this time. And we're seeing the result.
CORNISH: I like you saying strategy.
Guys, stick around. We have more to discuss. Straight ahead on CNN THIS MORNING, we're going to talk about those deadly storms that have left behind a trail of destruction. And more severe weather is on the way.
Plus, breaking news. Moments ago, China announced a major new tariff on U.S. goods. We're going to be live in Beijing with the latest.
And, of course, more from the group chat after this.
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CORNISH: Breaking news. Right now, China hits back with a 34 percent retaliatory tariff against the U.S. this is, of course, escalating this back and forth over trade between the world's two largest economies.
Marc Stewart joins us live from Beijing with the latest.
Marc, what are you learning about this?
MARC STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Audie, this is significant. I'm going to put that in boldface type. This is a really big deal.
These tariffs, these 34 percent tariffs on all American imports are the fight back that China said it would do if pressured by the United States. These additional tariffs, because there are already tariffs of anywhere from 10 to 15 percent already in place, these tariffs will certainly hurt the American economy in the sense that they will really hurt the heartland of America, as in America's farmers.
Right now, if we look at all of the products that China imports in from the United States, soybeans topped the list. Soybeans are needed here in China because they are the ingredient that fuels the pork industry, which is one of the top commodities in this part of the world. So, these additional tariffs are very strategic in the sense that they will hit farmers in the middle part of the United States.
We're still waiting for the timing and the implementation of all of this. But this sends a very big statement. Also important in all of this is the timing of all of this. This is a very sacred holiday weekend right now. This is a time where families take time to remember those who have passed away. For the government to do this late on a Friday afternoon, early Friday evening here in Beijing, really talks about the weight of all of this.
As far as what is next, Beijing is giving us some lines here and there. We will keep track, Audie. But again, this is - this is a very significant fight back from China.
CORNISH: Right. Marc Stewart, thanks so much.
Also, off this news, Dow futures are down, taking a notable dip into the red.
All right, I want to talk more about China because it's down to the wire around TikTok. The deadline is tomorrow for a ban that could go into effect if a buyer is not found. It's currently owned by ByteDance. That's a Chinese company. Last night, President Trump suggested that his new tariffs might be a way to get China to potentially sign off on a deal.
Joining me now to talk about this, CNN media analyst, Sara Fischer.
Sara, thanks for coming to CNN THIS MORNING.
So, I'll do two fast questions, just that people want to know. Will TikTok go dark?
SARA FISCHER, CNN MEDIA ANALYST: I don't believe so.
CORNISH: Is there a buyer? Are we any closer? Because I've got a bunch of names here. Amazon, Microsoft, Zoop, Silver Lake, or there's all kinds of people who have expressed interest.
FISCHER: Sure. There's a lot of people that want to buy TikTok. China, especially given this tariffs news, does not seem poised to be anywhere closer to approving a deal. It doesn't matter how bad or how much money people are willing to pay for it here, if China is not willing to let ByteDance sell TikTok U.S., we have no deal.
And, by the way, we need to have a plan for a deal. This is why I think the app won't go dark. In order for Donald Trump - right now there's an extension of the ban delay. In order for Donald Trump to potentially be able to extend it further or give assurances to app stores, cloud providers, that they're not going to get punished for keeping it up -
CORNISH: Right.
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FISCHER: We - he basically needs to be able to at least say there's a plan. I believe that's probably what's going to happen, because getting a deal to close by tomorrow morning, agreeing on a price, deal terms, no way.
CORNISH: In the meantime, we have the Dow dipping. We have China hitting back with tariffs. If tariffs are a negotiating tool, as the White House claims it is, how is that tool working out in this TikTok conversation, which the president says he wants to somehow get a U.S. investor for?
FISCHER: I don't think that the tariffs are going to be helpful at all in that conversation for a bunch of reasons. We're super heavily reliant on the tech sector. TikTok included. You have TikTok U.S. on the e-commerce sales of Chinese goods into the U.S. So -
CORNISH: All the stuff we buy online.
FISCHER: Shemu (ph) ten (ph) - Temu, Shein, all that kind of stuff, yes. So, I think that's going to have a very negative impact.
I also think, with everything going on with the tariffs, China has leverage in some ways over this deal now that they didn't have as much before. In January, Audie, they were just starting - the CCP was just starting to change its tune. Basically saying, look, maybe private companies can decide their fate.
I think, after this, they're going to have a lot tighter of a grip on ByteDance and allowing them to, you know, pursue a deal like this. Also, just to flag, when it comes to these deals, you just mentioned a bunch of buyers. You know, the folks I talked to, they're not talking to China and they're not talking to ByteDance. They're negotiating directly with the U.S. government, which leads me to believe it's all relying on the government to persuade the CCP, not private companies, to let this deal go through. The government's the one that's kind of picking a, you know, trade war right now with China.
CORNISH: Sara, you packed a lot into that. That is very helpful. A lot of people use TikTok. Thanks so much for being here.
You know, we're going to talk next about the morning roundup, some of the stories that you need to know to get your day going here at 51 minutes past the hour.
There's a federal judge deciding whether probable cause exists to hold Trump administration officials in contempt over the deportation flights that sent alleged Venezuelan gang members to El Salvador. Judge James Boasberg put the administration's use of the Alien Enemies Act on hold.
Another round of dangerous weather heading for parts of the south and Midwest that are already reeling from deadly storms earlier this week. Dozens of destructive tornadoes and storms killing at least seven people across three states. And forecasters warn there is an extremely high risk of catastrophic flooding now through the weekend in some of those same places.
And some good news for a Michigan couple back home after spending a month in a Mexican prison over a payment dispute with a timeshare company. Prosecutors say the charges against them were dismissed after they reached an agreement with the company.
Good news, The Boss is back. Bruce Springsteen is about to release seven lost albums with 80 never before heard songs. Here's a preview of one.
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BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN, MUSICIAN (singing): Rain in the road. Like, rain in the road.
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CORNISH: All right, "Rain in the Road. These are songs that were written between 1983 and 2018. And he says he's opening the vault.
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BRUCE SPRINGSTEEN, MUSICIAN: I often read about myself in the '90s as having some lost period or something. And I really - really I was working the whole time.
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CORNISH: "Track Two: The Lost Albums" comes out on June 27th.
Turning back now to politics and some of the frustration that we're seeing from voters.
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JOHN BURTON, TEA PARTY PROTESTER: I think that politicians that don't pay attention to what people are saying are going to find themselves out of - out of work, which is as it should be. The people are going to rise up and going to tell the politicians, finally.
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CORNISH: OK, you might think that was from a recent town hall or protest. Actually, that is a Tea Party protester from 2010. That movement, which was largely motivated by anger at what they saw was - as an overreaching federal government under the control of a single party. That might sound familiar. A new op-ed from pollster and friend of the show, Kristen Soltis Anderson, has this warning for her party, "Republicans better watch out." And she cites her latest poll, which found the emotion Democrats are most feeling right now is fury.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not interested in hearing that you are in the minority. We know that. We want you to show some of the backbone and strategic brilliance that Mitch McConnell would have in the minority.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CORNISH: Group chat is back.
Jackie, we've talked a lot about this analogy, Tea Party -
KUCINICH: Yes.
CORNISH: To now, obviously, Democrats have talked about how much they believe is at stake, especially with the actions that the administration is taking around immigration. What are you going to be listening for in, a, these protests, b, how Democrats respond to them?
KUCINICH: You know, I'm not listening to Democrats as much as I'm watching the voters that voted for Trump because of the economy. We talked to them all the time during the last election.
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Those who were saying, hey, he's not my favorite, but I'm voting for him because of inflation and because my grocery bill is too high. Yes, Democratic enthusiasm, obviously, is a huge deal. We saw that in Wisconsin. But I think those voters who are on the margins are going to be the ones that really tip the scales as we go forward. I mean, it's a long time before, but - but I think -
CORNISH: Yes, but I guess the question is, can the scales be tipped, if you're looking on the news that there's protests, if you're hearing your neighbor complain about it?
Rob.
BLUEY: Yes, I mean, I remember that - that moment, and I know Jim does as well, in 2009 and 2010, when there was a lot of enthusiasm and anger on the right, particularly with the Tea Party protests. And so I think that it would be wise for Republicans to look at the election results, not only in Wisconsin, but those two races in Florida that you talked about earlier, Audie, because the margins were much, much smaller. I mean, 14 points is still a big margin.
At the same time, I think it's important to look at those lessons. You have the Virginia gubernatorial election this year, which will be another bellwether, and then you have some other special elections in the House that are going to come up as well.
CORNISH: Yes, but people hit the streets when they don't feel heard in elections, right?
I want to play some sound from you in context of this conversation around the Democratic Party, kind of searching for a leader.
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KAMALA HARRIS, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Fear has a way of being contagious. OK. When one person has fear, it has a way of spreading to those around them and spreading. And we are witnessing that, no doubt. But I say this also, my dear friends, courage is also contagious.
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CORNISH: OK, Kamala Harris, we finally see her, and she is referring to something that is real. As I've reported on college campuses, for example, that people are afraid of sticking their neck out, going public because of the potential backlash to that activity.
Jim, can you talk about this message in the context of, yes, people speaking out?
MESSINA: Well, it goes back to what you were just saying. I think you're exactly right about these swing voters. And swing voters don't want to hear Democrats talk about anger and fear and all these things. They want us to have an economic message that makes their lives better. And Democrats have still yet to settle behind that. Part of it's not having a leader, but part of it's like understanding the moment we're in. It's not just enough to win elections because people start hating Elon Musk and Donald Trump. You actually have to have a different vision. And I think that's the challenge Democrats have right now. And that's the work we have to do. And it's not just enough to talk about fear.
CORNISH: Your old boss went a little further than this. He was speaking at Hamilton College. He had this to say about the moment that Democrats are in.
Ah, sorry. He was saying, "we're in one of those moments when, you know, it's not enough to say that you're for something, you may actually have to do something and possibly sacrifice a little bit." That's the part people don't remember when they talk about protests or where they referred to the '60s, or referred to past time, people did sacrifice.
MESSINA: That's right. People went to jail. People, like, took very difficult things. And I think what he's talking about is these law firms who are just bowing to the president, to Trump, and not fighting back. There's a price to be paid here. And, you know, you had Indivisible on earlier. They're willing to pay that price to say, this is the moment to have that fight.
CORNISH: Yes.
MESSINA: I just think it's not just about anger, though. You've got to have a message how you're making these swing voters lives better. In the Wisconsin election, nine counties that went for Donald Trump went for the Democrat in that election. That's those swing voters moving. It's not just enthusiasm. Swing voters are beginning to panic about Donald Trump.
CORNISH: Rob, last word to you.
BLUEY: Yes, I think that it's wise again for Republicans to pay close attention to this. Donald Trump did have a message that resonated in the 2024 election. He was able to win over those people who may have voted for Joe Biden in the previous election. And so -
CORNISH: He also wrote anti-pandemic lockdown protest anger. BLUEY: Yes. Sure he did. Yes. So did Glenn Youngkin in Virginia,
right?
CORNISH: Yes.
BLUEY: So, I mean, that's - that's again why I say, look at what's going to happen in Virginia as the next bellwether, just like Bob McDonnell's victory in the early days of Barack Obama's presidency.
CORNISH: I want to spend our last moment talking about what we're keeping an eye on.
Jackie Kucinich, what are you watching for?
KUCINICH: Yes, continuing to keep an eye on federal workers, particularly those in the IRS who are being reinstated as of April 14th. My colleague, Julian Sorapuru has a great piece on that on bostonglobe.com this morning.
CORNISH: Heard of it.
KUCINICH: Check it out.
CORNISH: Hometown paper.
Thank you so much, Jackie.
And, Jim?
MESSINA: Enthusiasm numbers. Insiders know that poll numbers aren't what's predictive. What's predictive is, who's excited in these elections. And right now it is Democrats all over the country.
CORNISH: Excited or agitated. I think either one is helpful for political consultants.
MESSINA: Yes, good. A little bit of both. Exactly right.
CORNISH: Rob, for you?
BLUEY: Well, the Bluey kids are excited about a Minecraft movie, which opens today, and going to the theater this weekend.
CORNISH: Yes. We were joking, it's the rare film not in a culture war.
BLUEY: Yes, that's right.
CORNISH: So, I'm more excited about that one.
BLUEY: So far.
CORNISH: Yes, give it time.
I'm going to be looking for impact of these tariffs.
[07:00:04] When you real - we saw small business owners be the ones to speak out. We've heard from farmers directly. Some of these people are starting to stick their neck out, even if they were Trump supporters, as you mentioned, to say, hi, it's me, I'm the one feeling it. So, I'm going to be listening for those quotes this week.
I want to thank the group chat for hooking me up. Appreciate it. Take a paper on - on your way out.
I'm Audie Cornish. And "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.
