Return to Transcripts main page
CNN This Morning
Kash Patel Engages in Fiery Back and Forth with Senators; Prosecutor: Suspect Left Note Saying He Would 'Take Out' Kirk; CNN Podcast Examines Chicago's History of Police Misconduct. Aired 6-6:30a ET
Aired September 17, 2025 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIAN ABEL, CNN ANCHOR: The most adorable. It's scientific; must be true.
[06:00:04]
Thank you for joining us here on EARLY START. I'm Brian Abel in Washington, D.C. CNN THIS MORNING with Audie Cornish starts right now.
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: The FBI director fights for his job in front of lawmakers. Or is he performing for an audience of one?
CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: You are a disgrace to this institution and an utter coward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: You're probably seeing viral clips like this in your feed this morning. Will we hear more screaming or some substance today?
And Charlie Kirk's alleged killer in court. What he texted to his roommate moments after the shooting.
And Bondi backlash. The attorney general stirring things up on both sides of the aisle after threatening to prosecute hate speech.
And a big announcement coming from the Fed. Are we about to see the first interest rate cut of 2025?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Charles, as you know, who's now king, is my friend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: A reception fit for a king. Why President Trump is getting the royal treatment in the U.K. again. It's 6 a.m. Here on the East Coast. It's 11 a.m. In the U.K., and
here's a live look at Windsor Castle, where President Trump is headed within the hour.
Good morning, everybody. It is Wednesday, September 17. I want to thank you for waking up with me. I'm Audie Cornish. And here is where we start.
Substantive debate or performance art? What's going on? What are we going to see today?
FBI Director Kash Patel is about to face another hearing on Capitol Hill, this time in front of the House committee members.
And it follows a fiery and combative appearance before the Senate Judiciary Committee, where Patel engaged in shouting matches with Democratic senators.
Now, they accused him of mishandling the bureau's investigations into the Epstein case. And also, they had questions about that manhunt for Charlie Kirk's killer.
They also claimed that Patel was politicizing the bureau by firing agents deemed disloyal to the president. Several former agents have sued Patel over those firings.
I want you to listen to this exchange with New Jersey Senator Cory Booker.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATEL: If you want to work on bringing this country -- It's my time, not yours.
SEN. CORY BOOKER (D-NJ): My God, my God.
PATEL: If you want to talk about --
(CROSSTALK)
BOOKER: -- dividing this country?
PATEL: It is my time.
BOOKER: I follow you on your social media posts that tear this country apart.
PATEL: It is my time to address your falsehoods.
BOOKER: Instead of being a unifying -- you --
PATEL: You're an embarrassment to the division in this country.
BOOKER: -- can try all you want to not take responsibility.
PATEL: It is my time. You had your time. BOOKER: Sir, you're making a mockery of this committee.
PATEL: Your time is over.
BOOKER: Sir, you don't tell me my time is over.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Joining me now in the group chat, journalist and historian Garrett Graff; Charlie Dent, former Republican congressman from Pennsylvania; and Democratic strategist Antjuan Seawright.
I just want to start with you, Garrett, to talk about the stakes here, because there are a couple of things going on.
One is just purging the department, right, of disloyalists; doing the things that Trump believes he was mandated to do. And now brass tacks, an actual investigation needs to happen, and actual crimes are happening.
What did you hear yesterday that struck you?
GARRETT GRAFF, JOURNALIST AND HISTORIAN: So, I think one of the things that just was truly shocking for anyone who has followed the FBI and the relationship between the Congress and the bureau was just the vitriol.
I mean, the -- it is unthinkable that you would have a member of an agency or a leader of an agency like the FBI speaking to members of Congress, speaking to senators like this.
You know, he called Adam Schiff a fraud, a liar, a coward, and a buffoon. He called Cory Booker an embarrassment. I mean, this is just sort of the most unstatesmanlike, un-leadership-like language that you could have.
CORNISH: But it also -- did it allow him to not have to answer their questions?
GRAFF: Yes, but I don't think we were ever going to get real knowledge out of Kash Patel in a hearing like this. I mean, Kash Patel is cosplaying the role of FBI director on a daily basis. Like, this is not someone who has anything like the actual experience and background necessary to lead an agency as complicated as the FBI.
CORNISH: Yes.
GRAFF: Which we saw in the Charlie Kirk investigation last week --
CORNISH: Well, that's why there were questions.
GRAFF: -- where he was sort of fumbling --
CORNISH: Yes.
GRAFF: -- that investigation day by day. His press conferences were a disaster. And he actually, at several instances, probably compromised the ability of the Federal government to bring federal charges against the shooter.
CORNISH: I want to -- related to that, the FBI director had to, or at least was asked to, acknowledge some kind of misstep in the Kirk shooter manhunt.
And I want to play for you this exchange. I think it is with Senator Welch of Vermont. Let me take a look.
[06:05:05]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATEL: Could I have been more careful in my verbiage and included "a subject" instead of "subject"? Sure, in the heat of the moment.
SEN. PETER WELCH (D-VT): So, that was a mistake?
PATEL: I don't see it as a mistake. I see it as something -- working with the public to identify that there was a subject in custody.
WELCH: So, if you put out -- if you put out a statement that says, "We've got our man," and in fact, it turns out that you didn't have your man, that's not a mistake?
PATEL: That's not what I said.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Not as much yelling on that one.
CHARLIE DENT, FORMER PENNSYLVANIA CONGRESSMAN: Yes, at least it was civil. That was civil. But --
CORNISH: Yes.
DENT: But --
CORNISH: But not even acknowledging something that I think a lot of --
DENT: Yes. Yes.
CORNISH: -- people in the investigative community were, like, what are you doing?
DENT: Of course. They made a mistake. They had the wrong guy. I mean, not very hard to say that. I was going to say, too, having watched the -- the previous clip, I have never seen a Senate-confirmed individual, you know, talk to members of Congress like that, with ad hominem attacks. It just doesn't happen.
And, you know, and to basically tell a senator or a House member, hey, this is my time. No, it's their time. And they can use it however they want. They can talk over you. They can give a speech.
And, and I'm just -- I was just really stunned. But, you know, in a lot of times --
CORNISH: Do you think the House is going to put up with that, now that they've seen what the senators dealt with?
DENT: Well -- Well, I think they'll have to. I mean, unless they want to throw them out of the hearing. But I've never seen anything like it.
In normal times, you know, that person would probably not be in the job very long, from making those kinds of attacks against a -- sitting members of the Congress.
CORNISH: Antjuan.
ANTJUAN SEAWRIGHT, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: The manufactured outrage and drama we saw in that hearing was much more about style than substance.
He came into that hearing, most people would agree, on political life support because of the Epstein files and because of the reckless way he's been handling the agency.
And so, his role was simply not to do anything but to try and impress MAGA world, Trump world. Every single one of Trump's appointees or in his cabinet have consistencies in a few things. The most important thing is loyalty to him and his agenda.
So far, Patel --
CORNISH: But Trump has said he supports Patel.
SEAWRIGHT: Because Patel has been a carrier of his agenda, and until that changes, Patel will be safe in Trump world and with Trump.
And I think that's what the hearing is about. All the agency heads have gotten away with these dramatic performances on camera, pushing back against the Democrats. And they get an "attaboy" on social media or from the president when they leave.
And I think we'll consistently see that until Republicans, who control the Senate, say that, Hey, this is about what happens when this term is over, because we have to get back to business as normal.
CORNISH: OK, you guys stay with me. We've got a lot to talk about this hour.
Coming up on CNN this morning, we're going to look at the pomp and pageantry inside Windsor Castle and the protests outside. How the British public is reacting to President Trump's state visit.
Plus, will the Fed finally deliver the rate cut the president has been calling for?
And another deadline for TikTok come and gone, but it won't be shut down anytime soon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: We made a very good trade deal and I
hope good for both countries. But a very different deal than they've made in the past.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:12:43]
CORNISH: Prosecutors offering a glimpse into the mindset of Charlie Kirk's suspected assassin.
The 22-year-old made his first appearance in a Utah courtroom yesterday, remaining expressionless as a judge read the seven charges against him. Those include obstruction of justice, witness tampering and aggravated murder. Prosecutors plan to seek the death penalty.
They're also revealing a series of text messages between the suspect and his roommate, which does include a confession. The question is about possible motive.
When the roommate asked him why he did it, the alleged killer texted back, "I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out."
The Justice Department says federal charges could be next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD BLANCHE, U.S. DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL: We're still looking at that. There's a lot of evidence to go through, and there's a big difference between the state charges, which are very serious, carry the death penalty, and charges that the federal government could potentially bring. So, that's not something we need to rush and make a decision on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Joining me now, Jillian Snyder. She's the resident senior fellow at the R Street Institute and a former NYPD officer.
Jillian, welcome back. Thanks for being here.
JILLIAN SNYDER, RESIDENT SENIOR FELLOW, R STREET INSTITUTE: Good morning.
CORNISH: Talk about why you think that they released the texts that they did. Right. There's Discord chats. There's probably way more text messages.
What insight are you getting into how prosecutors want to move this case forward?
SNYDER: These text messages, they are literally a full confession to his roommate. I mean, he discusses that he did it. He discusses, at least in small part, why he did it. But more importantly, he very heavily discusses the rifle that belonged to his grandfather. The fact that it looks like it -- once it was seen on the news by his family, his father reached out to him to talk to him.
And he said, I'm not answering right now.
So, there's a lot of information that we could gather from these text messages.
CORNISH: Also, talking about getting a question of how long have you been planning this? And the answer in that text, a bit over a week.
Also, there's this report that there was a note under a keyboard, where Tyler allegedly wrote that he had the opportunity to take out Kirk, that he was going to do it.
At this point, is this a case of did he do it or not? Or is this a case of why and what kinds of charges would bring -- what prosecutors would feel is the maximum amount of justice?
[06:15:09]
SNYDER: Yesterday, they did introduce seven charges against Tyler Robinson. So, I think at this point, they find that what they have so far is very strong.
He has not made a direct confession to law enforcement, as we know. But all of this, the culmination of the note and the text messages and what they've gotten from Discord and then getting statements from the roommate, getting statements from the family.
I believe there's forensic evidence, DNA on the trigger of the rifle that goes back to Robinson. All of this corroborating evidence is so supportive. We don't really need a direct confession.
The only thing that will give us is more into the mindset of what brought this on. But I think he's already alluded to why he carried this out.
CORNISH: Lastly, there's an aspect of this you and I have talked about, the kind of online of it all. The FBI is actually going to be looking into the Discord chat, where Tyler appeared to be talking with people in that chat about the shooting.
FBI director Kash Patel actually addressed this during a Senate hearing. I want you to take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PATEL: We're also going to be investigating anyone and everyone involved in that Discord chat.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a lot more than 20?
PATEL: Yes, sir. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you're running all of that to ground.
PATEL: Every single one.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Can you talk about that? Is that a distinctive moment? Right? Looking into all of these other people online?
SNYDER: It is, and it isn't. So, we have such a larger underground network of online communication, compared to five years ago, ten years ago.
But if -- if Robinson was online, even if the dark web, and he's making comments that alluded to or inferred that he planned to carry out a murder, a serious crime like that, and other people were antagonizing or instigating the situation, those people need to be spoken to. Because they had prior knowledge that this crime was going to occur.
CORNISH: All right. Jillian Snyder, thank you so much. I hope to check in with you again as we learn more about this investigation.
SNYDER: Thank you.
CORNISH: After the break on CNN THIS MORNING, classes are about to resume at Utah Valley University today. How school officials are stepping up security in the wake of Charlie Kirk's death.
Plus, wrongfully convicted and jailed for 30 years. Tortured justice in Chicago next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:21:34]
CORNISH: A new CNN podcast puts a spotlight on a dark chapter in American policing history.
From the '70s to the '90s, decades of torture and abuse at the hands of Chicago police against more than 100 people, mostly black men.
This happened under the supervision of then-Chicago Police Commander Jon Burge, and one of those men, James Gibson, spent nearly three decades in prison after being wrongfully convicted of a double murder.
CNN's latest podcast, "Tortured Justice," is hosted by our Omar Jimenez, and it examines Gibson's case and others.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): James is one of dozens of black men who were picked up and tortured, sometimes into confessions, over two decades, by a group of South Side detectives who became known as the Midnight Crew.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The people who were in a position to stop it didn't. And that was a conscious decision.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I lost everything. So, how do you replace that? Twenty-nine years, four months, and seven days? I can't get that back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Omar joins me now.
Omar, welcome. Thanks for being here this morning.
JIMENEZ: Of course. Thanks for having me.
CORNISH: So, this is a three-part series. It took a long time to come together.
But one of the things I'm interested in is thinking back to the '70s/'80s. The way we talked about crime back then sounds very familiar now, in this moment where the president is considering sending troops to a place like Chicago.
JIMENEZ: Yes. I mean, you know, one of the reasons that -- that this whole -- the basis, I guess, of this podcast series ended up happening is, when you look back at what crime was like in Chicago in the '70s and the '80s. You talk -- you know, the president likes to talk about crime being bad in Chicago now.
It was no -- it's nowhere near what it was during those decades in the city of Chicago. And there was this pressure on law enforcement within that, for in furtherance of what they believe to be public safety, to close cases.
And I think what we found and showed in this podcast is that it created this idea of latitude to close cases. Do what you need to do, whether it was ethical or not, whether it was legal or not. And it allowed -- it became -- it was one of those things that just festered over decades.
And as you'll find out in this podcast, there are still people today, decades later, still trying to unwind themselves from the mess that was created.
CORNISH: Right? James Gibson, who you focus on, he spent 29 years in prison. He was convicted of a 1989 murder that he did not commit. He was exonerated in 2019.
I didn't know this. Given a certificate of innocence in 2020 and a $15 million settlement.
Can you talk about his conversations with him? Because I think when we hear "torture and abuse," I don't know if we're being very vague with that term or if that is really what he experienced.
JIMENEZ: Yes. And just the way you talk about torture, I think, also is very important.
In this -- in this series, we chose to be very detailed about some of the aspects of this. Because on one hand, you know, the torture has become very normalized. You know, it's something that's in TV shows. It's in movies to get the answers out of the person that you need to, to save the world or whatever it might be.
But it was very important to us to sort of bring in some of those details to show exactly what we're talking about here, and not just in James Gibson's case, but in others.
For Gibson in particular, he -- he was beaten over days. He had to -- he even went and got photographs of some of his injuries, which we talked about over the course of this, too.
But essentially, he -- they were trying to get him to agree to the police's version of a story that incriminated him for this double murder, this awful double murder that happened near the Inglewood -- in the Inglewood neighborhood on the South Side of Chicago back in 1989.
And one of the things that really stood out to me from just talking to him is, you know, he talked about, all right. He spent almost three decades in prison. What you don't really get the sense of is how much work and resolve and fight it took on his end to keep going back and pleading for his case and fighting for his case and finding every opportunity.
And one of the things that stood out, too, was that, you know, it takes just a few hours of work to put someone away for decades, and it takes years and years and years of work to undo that mistake.
CORNISH: All right. Omar Jimenez, thank you so much.
And if you want to know more about this case, you can listen to "Tortured Justice." It's in the "CNN Presents" feed, wherever you get your podcasts.
And straight ahead on CNN THIS MORNING, the former CDC director testifying on Capitol Hill. What she's expected to say to lawmakers about her ex-boss, RFK Jr.
Plus, markets anxiously awaiting a decision from the Fed on interest rates. Right now, futures are mixed.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
