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Joel Rubin is Interviewed about Pressure on Israel; Senators Take New Vote; Rep. Pat Harrigan (R-NC) is Interviewed about National Guard Deployment; Bad Bunny Mocks Critics. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired October 06, 2025 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: From Israel. Hamas and the U.S. are set to begin key peace negotiations in Egypt. They hope to finalize a ceasefire deal based on President Donald Trump's Gaza plan.

Hamas signaled it's on board with releasing the hostages. It stopped short of a full endorsement of the plan. President Trump took that as a win, now shifting his pressure to Israel, boxing in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, explicitly calling on him to stop the bombing on Gaza. While Netanyahu expressed optimism about the hostages being returned, he also defended his pursuits of all-out war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Thanks to the great support I received from you, citizens of Israel, and thanks to the bravery of our fighters, I stood up to enormous pressure from home and abroad to stop the war and to give into Hamas' dictates. You know what would have happened then? We would have left Gaza having achieved almost nothing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Joel Roban is a -- Joel Rubin is former deputy assistant secretary of state for the Obama administration. He joins the chat.

Welcome, Joel.

JOEL RUBIN, AUTHOR, "THE BRIEFING BOOK" ON SUBSTACK: Good morning, Audie.

CORNISH: OK, so, Netanyahu is dealing with his own domestic politics, his own political coalition, which hinges on a more hard line stance. So, what do you see in how he is trying to message this to the public, to the international community?

RUBIN: Well, look, if there's one thing about Prime Minister Netanyahu, it's that he values his political survival over all else. And he looks at Donald Trump and he's afraid because Donald Trump is someone who can literally throw him out of office. And that is a unique position for the American president. CORNISH: Why do you think that? Is it because of Trump's emphasis on

the hostages, or what has endeared him to the Israeli community?

RUBIN: It's a whole -- he's -- I got to tell you, he's beloved in Israel. From moving the American embassy to Jerusalem, to allowing Israel to annex the Golan Heights, to bombing Iran. The list goes on and on. And Netanyahu knows this. That if Trump starts denouncing Netanyahu, and he's a wild card, what if he says, I'm going to cut aid, I'm going to stop sending you the weapons, that would get Bibi thrown out.

And so, for Netanyahu, he's playing for time. This deal does, if it's -- if it works, if it goes forward, have the chance to get the hostages out, get aid into Gaza, move towards a ceasefire. But it's not much of a deal. I got to tell you, it's more of an announcement and a set of promises and some kind of framework that potentially could possibly have something.

CORNISH: Yes, but it's not nothing.

RUBIN: It's not nothing.

CORNISH: And President Trump told Jake Tapper yesterday, in a series of text messages --

RUBIN: Yes.

CORNISH: We're going to show you some of those, that Hamas faces, quote, "complete obliteration" if it refuses to give up power in Gaza.

RUBIN: Yes.

CORNISH: I think most agreements have talked about the idea of, there is no Hamas ruling Gaza after this scenario.

Can you talk about Hamas itself?

RUBIN: (INAUDIBLE) --

CORNISH: Like, how does this happen? How do you bring such a group to the table?

RUBIN: First of all, I got to say that that's ridiculous. Look, this has been a hot war for two years, but it's a 40 year war with Hamas going back multi-decades. And you have Hamas in the West Bank fighting a low boil (ph) war with the Israelis and the settlers over there. So, the (INAUDIBLE) Hamas is done, while I would wish it'd be so, that is not in the cards in this. And that is what they're going to have to negotiate.

Now, what are the modalities Hamas could potentially be pushed out if, for example, in the reconstruction process, the Arab nations want to put money in to rebuild it and get new Palestinian leaders.

CORNISH: Yes. RUBIN: But that is not clear as to being part of this deal. Nobody signed the paper in public yet. So, that's what I'm looking for. Will the Israelis and the Hamas leaders sign the same piece of paper and agree to the same details? Then we have a deal.

CORNISH: All right, I want to bring something to the rest of the group, addressing something you mentioned earlier. A new poll finds two-thirds of Americans oppose sending more weapons to Israel. And the same support sending humanitarian aid to Gaza.

And I want to talk a little bit about this shift. You're nodding. Is this something you're getting a sense of as well?

SARA FISCHER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA ANALYST: I definitely think there's wartime fatigue in America. So, first, you had the entire thing with Russia in Ukraine, fatigue around, why are we footing that war when we have so many domestic problems at home? Now you're seeing a similar situation in Israel. But it's amplified by what people are seeing on social media, which is, photos and videos of Gazans that are starving, kids that are dying, and that makes people in America very uncomfortable with continuing to support Israel's side of the war.

CORNISH: But what -- do you think that is what has changed. I mean, there's a whole bunch of students out there who are probably like, hey, thanks for coming around.

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Yes, I think this is one of the effects of the war, which is going to be dangerous for Israel in the long term and it -- because it's made the Israeli- Palestinian question a domestic political issue in the United States, as it never was over the 40 years that you were talking about, not just in the Democratic Party, but more -- more generally now.

CORNISH: Right.

COLLINSON: The question --

CORNISH: Meaning people --

COLLINSON: Yes.

CORNISH: The average person has now opinions about Netanyahu, not Israel, but even about the government (ph).

COLLINSON: Right. And perhaps this explains some of the president's actions because what's been missing in all of his peace efforts so far in Israel and in Ukraine is his willingness to impose power and leverage -- American leverage.

[06:35:02]

We often talk about more nefarious ways he does at (ph) the United States, but is this exactly what should be happening now that Trump is finally standing behind his statements?

CORNISH: All right, you guys, I want to talk about something else. And, Joel, you can stick around. I know you love a good political talk.

RUBIN: Fantastic.

CORNISH: The shutdown conversation about the government shutdown. The Senate returns today to vote on a plan to reopen the government. And Speaker Johnson says that he doesn't plan to bring the House back until the Senate shores up its plan.

All that as the Trump administration continues to threaten layoffs if shutdown negotiations go nowhere.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): You know, all's fair in love and war. And I think that there's a price to pay for the Democrats shutting this down.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): If I were a Republican senator right here, I'd be telling the White House, forget about it. Don't lay off thousands of people. Don't inflict unnecessary pain and then boast about it, which is what they're doing.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We're operating in good faith. And we're trying to get the Democrats to do their job, and they won't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: All's fair in love and war. I'm biased because I think this is neither. But, Sabrina, help me. What -- what are we looking at as -- in terms of this week when we say that the Senate, it's in a -- the -- sort of the Senate's court.

SABRINA RODRIGUEZ, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I mean, there's a real open question about -- I mean negotiations have not really taken place. You hear kind of the messaging battle right now that's playing out on the airwaves, on social media, between Republicans and Democrats trying to cast blame on each other. They have -- last week "The Washington Post" had a poll that showed that the majority of people found that it would be Republicans and Trump's fault. The president himself, I mean there's clips of him saying this over a decade ago, where whoever is the president at the time of a shutdown is the person who carries the blame.

But the reality is that Democrats and Republicans right now are not in a place where they are close to any kind of a deal. Like we are in shutdown mode. It is not --

CORNISH: Oh, really? I thought there would be some secret bipartisan group of six, seven, 12, 13.

RODRIGUEZ: There is not some secret announcement. I mean, knock on wood, that I'm saying this on television and it happens.

CORNISH: Yes, exactly. Exactly. One can hope.

RODRIGUEZ: But there is no sign of a deal coming together in the immediate future.

CORNISH: Well, to your point, let me back you up with that CBS News poll. Nearly 40 percent of Americans blame Trump and the Republican Party for the shutdown, 31 percent hold both parties equally responsible, compared to 30 percent for Democrats.

RUBIN: Yes, well, I don't know how the party, who has control of both chambers of Congress and the White House, can't be seen as ultimately the one responsible. And I think that the Democratic messaging early on was a little weak. But now the messaging on health care and preventing spikes in one's monthly costs for getting health care, that's a strong message. And it continues to resonate.

I think it goes even back to your previous segment about the rural- urban divide. Rural America is going to get hammered by the recent big, beautiful bill legislation that essentially kills rural health programs and subsidies. So, Democrats continue to lean in on that. I think are going to see their pressure increase on Republicans.

CORNISH: But can I play the cynic here?

RUBIN: Yes.

CORNISH: I feel like if there's one thing the public has heard for the better part of a decade is, something, something Obamacare subsidies, something, something government shutdown, ah, it gets resolved. Like --

RUBIN: Yes, but what --

COLLINSON: Yes, and t doesn't seem right now that anything's happened to change the calculus of two parties that were quite happy for the government to shut down, you know?

CORNISH: Well, the mass firings is one.

COLLINSON: Well, that.

CORNISH: I mean you didn't have Russell Vought then.

COLLINSON: That's interesting that that hasn't happened yet.

CORNISH: Yes.

RUBIN: Right.

COLLINSON: You know, the White House was saying last week that was imminent. Perhaps it is. But it does seem like that's a weapon some Republicans are a little bit reluctant for the president to -- to -- to use --

CORNISH: Oh.

COLLINSON: Because that could throw that, you know, that poll that shows Republicans getting more blame further on. He looks like the guy that's not trying to solve it (ph). CORNISH: Right, because the White House that brought you DOGE --

COLLINSON: Yes.

CORNISH: You're pretty much aligned to think they're going to be doing layoffs.

Here's Kevin Hassett, Congressman, about that, whether the White House would follow through on that threat to do mass layoffs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: Well, again, I think that if the president decides that the negotiations are absolutely going nowhere, then they're -- you know, there will start to be layoffs. But I think that everybody's still hopeful that when we get a fresh start at the beginning of the week, that we can get the Democrats to see that it's just common sense to avoid.

We think the Democrats, there's a chance that they'll be reasonable once they get back into town on Monday. And -- and if they are, then I think there's no reason for those layoffs.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: I do think it's interesting. Sorry, my correction, that's the White House director of National Economic Council. Correction is important because, you're right, they don't want to just say, great, we'll fire everyone.

FISCHER: Yes, because a lot of those firings are going to impact people in rural states who tend to be Trump supporters. So, that's the challenge that they're facing.

I think a lot of this, too, comes down to over -- around Thursday and Friday I kept hearing, oh, are more Democrats going to buckle? That was the thing that we were all concerned about, or we were all thinking about, are more Democrats going to say, we're standing up to Chuck Schumer on this. We can't have a government shutdown.

And what we've seen happen is, that's not the case. They've held the line. They've stood behind the minority leader.

So now the question becomes, do the Republicans buckle in this situation with the threatened layoffs?

[06:40:04]

I think that's probably more likely at this point than the Democrats.

CORNISH: Oh, really?

FISCHER: Yes, I do.

CORNISH: Why? FISCHER: Because I think that these cuts, these potential layoffs would hit rural communities that tend to be Trump supporters. They're the people who are already struggling. Farms are struggling. They don't want to be impacted any further by these job cuts.

CORNISH: All right, here's what the posturing sounds like because, you know, we got to watch the Sunday shows here. And so, here's what we were hearing over the weekend.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): Well, the last time there was a conversation with Republican leadership was in the White House meeting last Monday. And unfortunately, since that point in time, Republicans, including Donald Trump, have gone radio silent.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Republicans are the ones in Congress working to improve health care access, quality and -- and -- and make it cheaper. We want to bring the costs down of health care. Premiums are too high. But it's not because of Republican policies, it's because Obamacare is not working. We are trying to fix it.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): I've encouraged my Democratic members to sit and talk to Republicans. It's always good when Democrats and Republicans talk to each other. But two points. First, in those conversations, the Republicans offered nothing. And -- but second, the only way this will ultimately be solved is if five people sit together in a room and solve it.

SEN. JOHN THUNE (R-SD): The Democrats just need to open up the government. Right now we're at a -- at a stalemate.

They'll get another chance on Monday to vote again, and I'm hoping that some of them have a change of heart.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RUBIN: Yes, look, Audie, nobody believes that Republicans are fighting for lower health care -- health care costs for the American people. I --

CORNISH: But will Democrats have a change of heart?

RUBIN: No. I think the Democrats are -- now feel strong, feel that the winds are behind them in the sense of the American people don't want to see the spike in costs.

And to Stephen's point, though, the spike in the costs are happening right now. This is the beginning of when the spikes in premiums goes up. And so, Americans are going to see the cost in real time, and they're going to say, why are the Republicans not trying to lower those costs while Democrats are.

CORNISH: OK, you guys, stay with us.

Joel, thank you for being with us. RUBIN: Thanks, Audie.

CORNISH: Next on CNN THIS MORNING, President Trump justifying U.S. actions, blowing up boats near Venezuela. Does he need Congress' approval? We're going to talk to a Green Beret and Republican Congressman Pat Harrigan, next.

Plus, you've got four months to brush up on your Spanish. Bad Bunny doesn't care if you can't understand him.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:46:37]

CORNISH: OK, so we know immigration agents massively escalated operations in Chicago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They're (EXPLETIVE DELETED) leaving our (EXPLETIVE DELETED) neighborhood and they're throwing gas cans out the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) window. This is Bryant Park (ph). This is (ph) not a war zone.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Federal agents clashed with protesters over the weekend, shooting tear gas into crowds. Officers say they were defending themselves. They say protesters rammed one of their vehicles into the officers. And Trump administration officials are blaming Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker for the rising tensions on the ground.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, DHS SECRETARY: This is a war zone. His city is a war zone. And he's lying so that criminals can go in there and destroy people's lives. Where we have gone, we've made it much more free. People are much safer.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: But there are plenty of legal challenges to these deployments. In fact, a court blocked the Trump administration from sending National Guard troops from three different states to police and protect ICE in Portland, Oregon.

And Pritzker is now raising concerns about how far the administration is willing to go, saying in a statement, quote, "we must now start calling this what it is, Trump's invasion. The brave men and women who serve in our National Guard must not be used as political props."

Joining me now to talk about this and more, Congressman Pat Harrigan of North Carolina.

Thank you so much for being with us.

REP. PAT HARRIGAN (R-NC): Hey, good morning, Audie. Always great to be with you.

CORNISH: So, one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you is you have served as a Green Beret. You have led troops in Afghanistan. And I remember when you were running, you were campaigning against putting the military in roles they weren't trained for overseas. So, what do you say to critics who see what the administration is doing right now and think it's doing the same?

HARRIGAN: I think the response to this is way overblown, Audie. I mean, look, very clearly, the authorities under which these troops are being deployed are limited to protecting ICE facilities and other federal facilities within these cities. I don't think it's wrong for members of the administration to characterize places like Chicago and Portland as war zones when they're putting up stats of about 50 murders a weekend. That's not the America that we want.

Certainly, as it relates to federal facilities, we know that we've had an ICE facility attacked due to the enhanced and -- and what I would say, you know, violent rhetoric that the other side has been spreading about some of our -- our -- our federal authorities. We have a vested interest from the perspective of the American people to protect these facilities and protect the operations of the government.

CORNISH: Are there red lines for you? Congressman, are there red lines for you?

HARRIGAN: Yes, I think there are -- there are -- I think that there are --

CORNISH: Are there things where you go, like, troops should not be doing x or y?

HARRIGAN: Yes, I think it's -- you can't have troops providing, you know, law enforcement capacities that aren't related to federal government facilities unless you have the cooperation of that state's governor. I think that's very clear from a constitutional perspective.

But what I want to make very clear is that those constitutional guardrails are not being violated right now by asking these troops to protect federal facilities.

CORNISH: I want to ask you about some billboards that have popped up by a veterans group. They've been outside the gates of some bases, including Fort Bragg, Camp Lejeune. And they ask, "did you go airborne just to pull security for ICE?"

[06:50:03]

Another says, "Marines, not what you signed up for. You've got options."

And this Win Without War group, which sponsored the billboards, are saying they want troops to know their rights, service members to understand. But I want to ask you about the concern they're raising that there may be service members who feel like, this is not what I signed up for, and may have questions about what they're being asked to do. What's your response to those service members?

HARRIGAN: I think that, again, I think that the reaction here is -- is overblown and it's not warranted. I think very clearly the president does have the authority to deploy troops for the purpose of defending federal facilities and federal operations that are ongoing within the city.

I don't think that service members that I served with would have this type of reservation, particularly understanding that these folks are genuinely under attack. I mean, just in that video clip that you showed at the beginning of the segment, these -- mostly these protesters are -- are --

CORNISH: By folks you mean ICE you're talking about or -- because we're showing -- I want to make sure the viewer understands.

HARRIGAN: No, no, no, the -- the --

CORNISH: OK.

HARRIGAN: The -- the protesters.

CORNISH: OK.

HARRIGAN: The protesters, right. These are not mostly peaceful protesters. These are guys that are getting agitated. They're getting violent. Arrests are being made every single day for violence against ICE personnel. And so, no, that's not acceptable. And I think that any member of the military wants to see law and order across our country. They want to be used in the right way, but I think that they are. That's the point, Audie.

CORNISH: I want to ask you one more thing military related, which is about Venezuela. We have seen escalating actions by this administration as they have deemed Venezuela a narco state, narco terrorist. I don't necessarily know if that's in question. For a long time, in the region, people have raised questions about the narco activities of that government.

Do you believe the U.S. military is going to end up in a boots on the ground situation there?

HARRIGAN: I don't think so, Audie. I don't think that's the intent. That hasn't been communicated to us in Congress.

However, we are very clear-eyed about the threat.

CORNISH: Would you be worried if it was? I mean, as you see Venezuela -- as you see this action that the U.S. is taking, do you have concerns?

HARRIGAN: I don't at this point, point because, look, all of the strikes that have been orchestrated have been in international waters. I think that's a very important distinction versus what some of the rhetoric that folks are talking about with respect to their concern. But I don't think that their concern is warranted or valid at this point in time.

Look, you've got these drug organizations, multinational, you know, really terror organizations, and they're now properly labeled, as they should be. They're actually killing Americans. And so, no, I don't think it's unwarranted to kill them in response. They've been killing 100,000 Americans a year for as long as we can remember. That's got to stop.

CORNISH: Yes. You're among that generation of lawmakers who ran for office, in part in a response to forever wars, actions in Afghanistan, Iraq, et cetera. Is it strange now to be in a position to be defending an escalated war on drugs, a Department of War, and military used against domestic situations and citizens?

HARRIGAN: You know, Audie, one of the things that I ran on was, look, we've got to do a better job of doing two things with our military. One, don't fight wars we shouldn't be fighting. But the ones we absolutely have to, let's win them. And from the perspective of providing for law and order, peace and security, in our country, again, I don't think it's outside of the authorities and the constitutional boundaries to make sure that our federal facilities and our federal law enforcement operations are operating with security.

Simultaneously, I do not think that it is out of the realm of normality for us to care about our own backyard here in the western hemisphere. If we can't have safety and security, law and order where we live, we do not have any hope of propelling liberty and freedom, safety, security, law and order across the rest of the free world.

CORNISH: That's Republican Congressman Pat Harrigan of North Carolina.

Thanks so much for being with us.

HARRIGAN: Hey, thanks for having me, Audie.

CORNISH: So, despite that backlash over his upcoming Super Bowl halftime show, Bad Bunny, not fazed by the threats. Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem confirming ICE will be there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, DHS SECRETARY: We'll be all over that place. And I can't -- we're going to enforce the law. So, I think people should not be coming to the Super Bowl unless they're law-abiding Americans who love this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: So, the international superstars halftime show has been criticized as un-American. The Grammy winner just wrapped up a three month run in Puerto Rico that is believed to have injected upwards of $200 million into the local economy. But he intentionally did not come to the mainland U.S.

[06:55:03]

Bad Bunny said he didn't want ICE officers outside his concerts. Hosting "Saturday Night Live" this weekend, he mocked his critics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BAD BUNNY, MUSICIAN: And I think everyone is happy about it. Even -- even Fox News.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bad Bunny --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Favorite --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Musician.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he should be the --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Next --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: President.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Group chat is back.

He also made a joke about people basically having time to learn Spanish, which means he will be performing in Spanish. I feel like this is a remarkable moment, far more so than even Kendrick Lamar, whose music had been used during the Black Lives Matter movement.

FISCHER: Yes, because it's happening the year after Kendrick Lamar. So, now the NFL looks like it is an organization that is welcoming of more progressive perspectives on its stage. But, Audie, the Kendrick Lamar ratings were fabulous. They were a high point of last year's Super Bowl. And at the end of the day, what the NFL needs to do is get as many people interested in the game of football as possible. That's especially --

CORNISH: Oh, yes, let's take a look at this, these numbers.

FISCHER: Yes.

CORNISH: So, in a way, some of these numbers are since Roc Nation, Jay-z have started making some of the choices.

FISCHER: Yes.

CORNISH: And it started to move away from sort of legacy acts, I think.

FISCHER: Yes.

CORNISH: To more of this. And the numbers reflect the success.

FISCHER: The popularity. Yes. Another thing to remember about Bad Bunny. The NFL right now is trying to go international. It's trying to go places. If you think about Brazil --

CORNISH: Yes.

FISCHER: Where there are people -- I mean, it's a Portuguese speaking country, but people who are more familiar with Bad Bunny and the language. So, for them, this isn't just about satisfying, like, what Americans want to see. The Super Bowl is an international event, and Bad Bunny will put up ratings for them, I guarantee you.

CORNISH: Yes, but I'm interested in FNL -- is the NFL is going to say, and we welcome ICE outside the doors?

RODRIGUEZ: I mean, I think that's the open question, of course. But -- but I think, regardless, the audience of the people who go to the Super Bowl --

CORNISH: Why are -- yes.

RODRIGUEZ: Is not the same as the people who are watching the Super Bowl across the country and as Sara said, around the world. So, I think that's the calculus at the end of the day. It's not a surprise that Trump's base, that MAGA influencers are mad.

CORNISH: Yes.

RODRIGUEZ: The NFL, when they sign that contract, when Roc Nation was involved in these conversations about Bad Bunny, they knew the controversy that was going to come around this. It's not a secret who Bad Bunny is. It's not a secret. A lot of people discovered Bad Bunny last week, but it's not a secret that Bad Bunny sings in exclusively Spanish.

CORNISH: Yes.

RODRIGUEZ: And as we talked about on this show, about the backdrop of what's happening across the country, of course there was going to be some backlash.

CORNISH: Why are you burying the lead when you've seen Bad Bunny? Girl, I'm waiting for you. I'm like this, when is she going to mention.

RODRIGUEZ: I am a big fan. I -- I am a big fan. But seeing what he did in Puerto Pico, I mean, it's not lost on the NFL, it's not lost on Jay-z and Roc Nation what he can accomplish. He literally brought a micro economy into Puerto Rico for two months, and he's about to launch a world tour where he's going to places like Mexico, Japan, Brazil, places that the NFL wants to bring into the fold.

CORNISH: Yes. But also Puerto Rico is at the heart of, I think, one of our pop culture moments last year, right, when that joke was made at the Trump rally calling it an island of garbage or something like that. This, I mean, Bunny, in a way, this was -- even though it was planned in advance, this is a response.

COLLINSON: Right. And I think it's very interesting the NFL has consciously decided to do this at a moment when there is this pressure from the MAGA right to try and hit out at what they see as liberal and other forces in the culture. It's showing that Trump is not the only organ of power in the country either. What -- it's what is -- what is -- what is -- what do they think people are going to do, not watch the Super Bowl? It has that power.

FISCHER: The organ of power, is there negotiations with networks when they're going to exercise their opt out in 2029? They need good ratings here to be able to go back to them and demand insane fees.

CORNISH: It's interesting because we've been talking so much after the late night thing about the power the Trump administration has to sort of threaten people worried about deals.

FISCHER: Oh, the power of the market is bigger.

COLLINSON: Yes.

CORNISH: But you're saying this is different?

FISCHER: The power of the market is so much bigger right now than the power of the Trump administration. For the NFL, they want to opt out of their 2029 distribution agreements. They want to get much more money from these networks. The only way they can pull that off is by pointing to the Super Bowl and saying, you need us. And when it comes to Bad Bunny, the number one album ever streamed on Spotify, Bad Bunny's album.

CORNISH: Yes, which I think people don't understand.

FISCHER: Last year, the number three artist in the world globally streamed on Spotify was Bad Bunny. This guy, I'm telling you, will pull in viewers. And, by the way, he'll also do it because there's controversy. People want to tune in to see if he's going to make a political remark and what people are going to say about it.

CORNISH: Yes. It just feel different because I feel like Kendrick Lamar spent all his time just trying to, like, bury Drake, right? It felt very sort of small in the end. Sorry, I love you, Kendrick, but it was very focused. This has a potential to be something else. Even on "SNL," where he spoke in Spanish.

RODRIGUEZ: I think Bad Bunny's existence is political. I think the fact that he is occupying these spaces, that he goes on "SNL" and speaks in Spanish, that he's going to be at the Super Bowl performing in Spanish.

[07:00:06]

But then he doesn't have songs in English. So, there's not really an option of a Super Bowl where he's making a choice.

CORNISH: Yes. RODRIGUEZ: That is who he is. And just a note, I mean, being Puerto Rican, he's a U.S. citizen.

CORNISH: Yes.

RODRIGUEZ: So, a lot of the conversation around his legal status --

CORNISH: About being American even. Yes.

RODRIGUEZ: Is really foraying into like a much more offensive conversation because he is a U.S. citizen performing at the Super Bowl.

CORNISH: OK, thank you guys. We're going to give Stephen time to brush up on his Duolingo. In the meantime, thank you for waking up with us. I'm Audie Cornish. And "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts now.