Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Fawaz Gerges is Interviewed about Hamas; Jordan Demands Testimony from Jack Smith; Dr. Abdul el-Sayed is Interviewed about Democrats; Cheryl Hines Defends Husband. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired October 15, 2025 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:31:41]

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. I'm Audie Cornish. I want to thank you for joining me on CNN THIS MORNING.

It's now half past the hour on the East Coast. And here's what's happening right now.

Today, the Voting Rights Act is back before the Supreme Court. The justices are hearing arguments for the second time in a case over Louisiana's congressional map, which has two majority black districts.

And a U.S. military strike has killed six people on a boat that was allegedly trafficking drugs off the coast of Venezuela. It's at least the fifth time President Trump has announced such a strike, which is likely to further inflame regional tensions.

And Boston is the latest city in the path of President Trump's fury. He's threatening to relocate the World Cup matches set to be played in Foxborough next year because its being, quote, "taken over by unrest." The president doesn't have the authority to make that decision. That is the role of FIFA.

So, the fighting in Gaza is over for now between Israel and Hamas, but the violence and bloodshed is not. Thousands of Palestinians are returning to what is left of their homes after two years of war. But Hamas is looking to keep its grip on the territory. Videos circulating online show Hamas fighters executing eight blindfolded people in Gaza. Israel's foreign ministry says the killings are proof Hamas must go. President Trump issued this warning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If they don't disarm, we will disarm them. And it will happen quickly and perhaps violently.

REPORTER: You say --

TRUMP: But they will disarm. Do you understand me?

REPORTER: Yes. You say -- TRUMP: Because you always -- everyone says, oh, well, they won't disarm. They will disarm. And I spoke to Hamas, and I said, you're going to disarm, right? Yes, sir, we're going to disarm. That's what they told me. They will disarm or we will disarm them. Got it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Joining me now to discuss is Fawaz Gerges, a professor of international relations at the London School of Economics.

Thank you for being here.

FAWAZ GERGES, AUTHOR, "THE GREAT BETRAYAL: THE STRUGGLE FOR FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY IN THE MIDDLE EAST": My pleasure.

CORNISH: Now, it's not unusual for Hamas, in a pause of fighting, to go after its enemies within Gaza, to see this kind of activity. But does Hamas still speak for Palestinians? Meaning, are we looking at a force that is ready to leave?

GERGES: Well, I mean, I think what Hamas is trying to do now is to reassert its control. Hamas is trying to fill the security and govern in this vacuum. It has mobilized 7,000 fighters from the interior ministry. It has executed, you know, around eight or ten what Hamas calls collaborators with Israel, thugs and looters and what have you, without any kind of judicial, you know, trial or whatever. And Hamas realizes that this is really -- it's racing against time to basically consolidate its control before the second and the third phases of the ceasefire.

And ironically -- here is the irony. President Trump -- you just cited President Trump saying that the United States will disarm Hamas if it does not really agree to being disarmed peacefully. But when he was asked about Hamas going after the collaborators and the looters and the clans, he said, well, oh, we've given them permission to do so.

[06:35:07]

Well, if you've given them permission to do so, I think by the end of the day, Hamas will be fully in control of the areas under its control. Because keep in mind, Israel still controls 50 percent of the territories. But you're asking a big question about the next phase, what will happen in Gaza? This is an entirely different matter.

CORNISH: I also was curious in that line when he said, "we will disarm them." Who did you interpret as the "we"? Is it a regional force, or do you think he was talking about the U.S.?

GERGES: Well, I mean, first of all, I would say to your viewers, this is really President Trump's -- it's vintage Trump using threats and pressure. This is his style. And he thinks it's effective. Keep in mind, I don't think he means that the United States will do so directly. He will unleash the Israeli army, as he did a few weeks ago when he gave Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu a green light, quote/unquote, to confront Hamas and finish the job quickly. That's what he thinks. But beyond the noise, beyond the theatrics, I think the United States has established direct and indirect contact with Hamas. This is really now it's -- it's facts. It's not just speculation and analysis. Hamas does not really -- is not opposed to handing out its arms, but Hamas, according to the prime minister of Qatar, in an interview in "The New York Times," he said, Hamas want to hand out its weapons to a Palestinian land led authority, as opposed to an international force led by the so-called board of peace and the United States.

So, this is really, I think, what -- what's involved now, the technical details is establishing a Palestinian-led force in Gaza for the morning after and also for providing governance and institutions and much urgently needed humanitarian aid to the Palestinian population.

CORNISH: Yes. And this really underscores just how early we are in this process. And if it's even sustainable.

Fawaz Gerges, thank you so much. I hope we talk to you again soon.

GERGES: Thanks.

CORNISH: Now, one of President Trump's longtime targets here in the U.S. now wanted for questioning on Capitol Hill. House Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan is calling for special prosecutor Jack Smith to testify behind closed doors. He has not issued a subpoena. Jordan wants to question Smith about his two successful indictments of Trump, one for election interference and another for possession of classified documents after leaving office. In an interview released on Tuesday, Smith spoke out about the state of the Department of Justice and what's happening to career public servants in the Trump administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK SMITH, FORMER SPECIAL COUNSEL: I think the attacks on public servants, particularly nonpartisan public servants, I think it has a cost for our country that is incalculable. And I think that we -- it's hard to communicate to folks how much that is going to cost us. If you think getting rid of the people who know most about national security is going to make our country safer, you do not know anything about national security.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Group chat is back.

I wanted to talk about this, a, because I rarely hear Jack Smith's voice and how he spent this time was significant, saying, essentially, this is not just about me.

MARGARET TALEV, SENIOR CONTRIBUTOR, "AXIOS": Yes, and I think Jack Smith has spent so much of his career like not giving talks where everyone can, like, listen, that the decision to do it says something as much as anything else.

CORNISH: Yes.

TALEV: It is certainly a preview of setting the table of what he might say behind closed doors and what he might say publicly. And here you get a preview of that.

But it tells me that he feels that there's a broad swath of the American public who hasn't heard the language that he's using to try to frame this conversation, and that, therefore, has -- has been actually comfortable. Like, people who support the president have actually been comfortable with some things, like the efforts to prosecute Jim Comey, or John Bolton or whatever.

CORNISH: Right.

TALEV: So --

CORNISH: So, he's taking a different tact, right, in a lot of ways. In New York you have Letitia James sort of at the rallies with Democrats. You have Comey saying, look, you don't want to live a life on your knees. You don't want to live in fear. And this is a different angle, which is, national security is being threatened when you are taking, not just him, but other people off the job.

Do you think, messaging wise, that works?

BRYAN LANZA, SENIOR ADVISER, TRUMP 2024 CAMPAIGN: Listen, I think national security is threatened when a prosecutor does things that are abnormal. Him trying to -- him trying to take --

CORNISH: A special prosecutor? They're, by definition, abnormal.

LANZA: Yes. But let's look. The district of New York, right. The average case for a case for it to go to trial is two and a half years. This guy tried to push it in five months and was only stopped because the Supreme Court said you can't. I mean this is the most overturned guy by the Supreme Court in American history.

[06:40:02]

Not just on Trump, but on other cases against elected officials. You know, you had -- you had circumstances where -- where he -- he -- he submitted briefs that weren't normal. You know, he wanted to submit briefs ahead of President Trump, but he went to the courts.

CORNISH: But isn't the argument saying like, hey, look, the FBI guys are suing the FBI.

LANZA: Yes.

CORNISH: This person, that person, that person, and various Justice Departments are getting booted.

LANZA: Yes.

CORNISH: Is there a way where you're able to portray this as a singular figure and their problems, or is the picture too broad? LANZA: No, listen, I think it's --

CORNISH: Are people watching too many other things to not notice?

LANZA: Listen, I think -- I think it's pretty clear that the American people just don't have trust in the Department of Justice.

CORNISH: OK.

LANZA: That's one of the reasons President Trump was elected was he made this argument of the weaponization of our judicial system. And people believed it. And Smith coming out, and all he does is just amplify what people already feel. You have some Democrats who are going to say, great, he's out there, he's going to fight. But the vast majority of the people who voted for Donald Trump and the vast majority of the country --

CORNISH: So, you think this doesn't -- yes, of course.

LANZA: This -- this doesn't do anything.

CORNISH: Well, nothing changes anyone's minds anymore.

LANZA: Yes.

CORNISH: Ashley, I know that the House committee here wants a closed- door meeting, which isn't unusual. You want to know what people are going to say before they say it in public. Oh, I see that nod. You think it's unusual, and why?

ASHLEY ETIENNE, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS: Yes. Well, not that it's unusual. I think it's a smart tactic on the Republican part, because who's going to, you know, who's -- you can't dispute what he said, right?

TALEV: (INAUDIBLE).

ETIENNE: All of a sudden it's his word against their word.

But here's the thing is, you know, the Republicans on The Hill want to have this particular fight.

LANZA: Absolutely.

ETIENNE: This is a fight they want to have, not just to distract from the failing economy, but the shutdown. But in addition to that, it's red meat for their base and red meat for the boss. This is what Donald Trump wants them to talk about. He wants everything to revolve around him.

But I think the one thing that Jack Smith pointed out, which we've sort of not leaned into in this particular conversation, is how the Department of Justice has been weaponized since Donald Trump has been the president. To your point, he argued on the campaign trail that there's -- you know, DOJ is broken. But the reality is, he's further broken it himself intentionally. He's gone after university. He's gone after the media. Gone after all of his political enemies. And my question we should all be asking ourselves is, where does this retribution campaign end? I mean, to some degree we've -- were so far gone. Any of us could be a target. We still have three more years of this. But --

CORNISH: It will be interesting to see if we start to hear people make that argument in particular, or if the voters feel like, no, that's actually your problem and you guys problem because you're the ones who were in this back and forth with Trump all these years.

LANZA: It's important to remember, you have universities that are settling and you have, you know, news organizations. So, kind of, it hurts the argument.

ETIENNE: Out of fear, though. Not -- not -- not because they're married to the argument.

LANZA: Call it whatever you want, people are using (INAUDIBLE).

CORNISH: Are you a lawyer?

LANZA: No.

ETIENNE: Exactly.

CORNISH: Because, you know, settling sometimes don't mean nothing but that you settle.

LANZA: Got it. Correct. Absolutely. But to the --

CORNISH: So, I just want to be clear about that.

LANZA: But to the public, to the voters, they see the settlement and say, oh, they must have done something wrong. That's what I'm saying.

CORNISH: Oh, I don't know.

TALEV: I think most of the public's thinking about, like, inflation and economic stability. I'm not sure how much any of this breaks through --

CORNISH: Exactly.

TALEV: To everybody's chagrin who is trying to use it for messaging.

CORNISH: Yes. Even at the time.

OK, you guys, stay with me. We've got more to discuss. We're going to have a guest as well.

Next on CNN THIS MORNING, divided Democrats. So, should party leaders shift their messaging around Gaza? I'm going to talk to a Senate candidate from Michigan, next.

Plus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your husband is the least qualified Department of Health and Human Services head that we've had in history.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: So, those comments lit the fuse. How Cheryl Hines responded to criticism of her husband, RFK Jr.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:47:48]

CORNISH: With a ceasefire holding for now in Gaza between Israel and Hamas, lawmakers in the U.S. are praising the end of hostilities and the return of living hostages. But Democrats seem reluctant to mention a certain name.

So, here's an example. In a statement, Democrats celebrated the agreement. You heard New York Mayoral Candidate Zohran Mamdani calling the deal, quote, "a glimmer of hope," but actually didn't end up mentioning Trump. House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries called the peace agreement, quote, "extremely welcome development," without mentioning the president. And Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer seemed to do both. He mentioned the president in his written statement, but then said this on the Senate floor.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): This is an immense, overwhelming sigh of relief for everyone. I commend the enormous advocacy of the tireless hostage families and all who helped this -- make this moment happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: Joining me now to discuss is Dr. Abdul el-Sayed, a Democratic candidate for the U.S. Senate in Michigan.

Welcome to the show.

DR. ABDUL EL-SAYED (D), MICHIGAN U.S. SENATE CANDIDATE: Thank you so much for having me.

CORNISH: So, we were mentioning Democrats really not doling out the praise here for Trump. Should they be?

EL-SAYED: Well, look, I'll tell you this. I think lasting peace, right, it's been a couple days now, and peace is a good thing. The ability for families in Gaza to breathe freely for the first time in two years is a good thing. Hostages on both sides returned home is a good thing. So, let's just start there.

But then, beyond that lasting peace, that's built on justice. And right now, this so-called deal puts all of the power back in the hands of the people who just perpetrated a genocide. There's no accountability. Whether that's for Netanyahu and his enablers, or that's for our government's funding of this genocide for two years. And so, I think right now we're in a bit of a wait and see.

CORNISH: But the reason why I want to ask you about this is the Biden administration tried to get here, and it didn't.

EL-SAYED: Yes. And there's --

CORNISH: And that cost the party in terms of voters. I want to show you a quote from Reuters. They were saying that, "it's almost an I told you so moment." This is a "Yemeni American who helped rally Arab American support for Trump in Michigan during the 2024 election."

[06:50:03]

You know, there were times when they asked, for instance, the party at the convention to say more, to do more, to vote on various issues, and they didn't.

Do you think Democrats made a mistake there?

EL-SAYED: Yes, you're never going to catch me defending Joe Biden's handling of the Gaza situation. And at the same time, we're talking about ten months in to a presidency on the part of Donald Trump who famously said that he was going to solve it on his first day. So, I -- you know, I don't like to spend a lot of time debating the legacies of old men. I think both of them are blameworthy. I think neither of them is the person you should entrust with keeping the peace. I think both of them have mishandled it.

And I think the question that we have to ask ourselves moving forward here is, what do we do here? Because when I talk about Gaza, we have to recognize that every dollar that we spent subsidizing a genocide in Gaza, 21 billion of them, is a dollar we didn't spend investing in feeding our kids here at home, investing in providing health care or infrastructure here at home. The people of Michigan have suffered as a consequence of our misappropriation.

Now, take that and recognize that our money was being used to fuel a genocide. Taking food away from other kids and health care and schools away from other kids. And that is a moral catastrophe.

CORNISH: Yes.

EL-SAYED: So, my question is, who's willing to deal with that moral catastrophe and make sure that never happens again?

CORNISH: It's interesting. One, we should note for our viewers, an independent entity connected to the U.N. made that determination about genocide. That is sort of the most direct version we have heard of that. But, in the meantime, you're sounding an awful lot like Marjorie Taylor Greene and that wing of the party that has been raising this as an issue.

EL-SAYED: Yes, minus the islamophobia, anti-Semitism and racism. But, sure. I just think that anybody who's looking at this situation right now needs to recognize that we've got folks here at home that are struggling. And every dollar that we spend being misappropriated to subsidize foreign militaries -- and look, I'll add, not just Israel, but Egypt, and Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia, and Jordan to that list. I don't think any of us go on tax day to pay our taxes to think, man, I'm really looking forward to buying a tank for another country, rather than, I'm looking forward to provide a quality school or good health care for my kids.

CORNISH: Senator Sanders, who is your mentor, right, he's among the people who endorsed you quite early. Part of his bigger movement to push the party leftward. He was talking to "The Nation" magazine, talking about the future of the party, and he talked about how leaders have been reluctant to embrace Mamdani and those in his lane. And he says, "if they can't support Mamdani, then, of course, they can't make a request of anybody." He says, "bottom line," if you can't support him, he's saying, "then who the hell can you support? What do you think the future of the Democratic Party is? Do you think AIPAC is the future of the Democratic Party? I don't think so."

EL-SAYED: I happen to agree. Look, there's a big thing that happened in the primary election in New York, and that's that young people turned out at a higher rate than their seniors. That doesn't usually happen in elections. In fact, the last time I saw it happen in any real way was when Barack Obama was elected president in 2008. When young people show up for a candidate, all of us should be paying attention. What did they come out for? Because, at the end of the day, young people have the highest stake in our democracy. And when they tell you what they want, they're pointing to the future they believe in.

In this election we've been organizing --.

CORNISH: But what you heard from centrist Democrats is that the -- there are folks who are pulling the party to far left and that that actually caused a backlash among some voters.

EL-SAYED: Well, I mean, I guess we'll see in November. But my question is this, what is it -- why do we keep talking about our politics in terms of left and right, when the real divide in our politics is people who've been locked out and the people who are locking them out. And at the end of the day, you know, how does a state like Michigan go for both a Bernie Sanders and a Donald Trump? It's because both of them were credibly talking about trying to unlock the system. Now, Bernie Sanders really was about it. Donald Trump himself had the key the whole time.

And I think right now people are sick and tired of being locked out in a system that's gotten too hard. I've been up and down my state, 58 different cities, 120 public events. And no matter where I go, you can be in Escanaba, in the upper peninsula, or you can be in Detroit, people tell you it's just too hard.

And so the question right now is, who's going to ease that burden? That's who folks are looking for, particularly young people who feel like they've been structurally locked out of the future that they deserve. CORNISH: Yes. One more question. Obviously, we're in the midst of a

government shutdown. And I want to know if you think Democrats are dragging it out too long. And if you were ever to win your election, would you continue to support a Senator Schumer for leader?

EL-SAYED: Look, I've always said, I've been clear, a choice -- a vote is a choice between two different choices. And I don't know what those choices are right now. But let me tell you this, I think if you talk to the 25 million people whose premiums are about to go up 100 percent, I think the question that they're asking is, who is willing to stand up to protect my health care?

[06:55:06]

We're going on a town hall tour all over my state. And guess what? The signups have been insane because people are so frustrated about the most unaffordable part of a deeply unaffordable life, which is their health care. And I think right now this is the right fight to pick if we're serious about defending people's ability to just go see a doctor.

And so, I think the question of the tactic of a shutdown, et cetera, I think that's secondary to the question of, what are we fighting for? And I think its high past time that Democrats show people what they're fighting for. And right now, that's a righteous fight for people's health care.

CORNISH: OK, that's Dr. Abdul el-Sayed. Thank you so much for your time.

EL-SAYED: Thank you. Audie.

CORNISH: Before I move on to the other topic, can I get a point of view from my messaging folks? How did you feel hearing that? This is an up and comer voice of the party.

ETIENNE: No, I mean, I loved a lot of the things he said.

But, you know, the one thing that should not be forgotten is that Netanyahu withheld an agreement under Joe Biden because he wanted to bolster Donald Trump's campaign. That's the dynamic we're in now. And, you know, and people have raised questions about the timing of this agreement. Was it to ensure -- to position Donald Trump to get the Nobel Peace Prize?

CORNISH: But the average person, they see Trump had a victory.

LANZA: They absolutely saw Trump (INAUDIBLE).

CORNISH: And Democrats have not worked out their actual politics on this yet as far as I can see. What is the main argument at this point? And has Trump undermined it?

TALEV: You know what's really interesting about the Middle East issue is that while American support overall for Israel has declined over the course of this, politically in the U.S., it's actually caused more of a split for Democrats than it has for Republicans.

LANZA: Yes.

TALEV: And it makes the politics quite difficult. Not in a primary, but in a general election for the Democratic Party.

CORNISH: Well, I'm going to be listening to this town hall tonight, particularly to hear Sanders' point of view. He's always been consistent. But how do things change with the ceasefire?

There's one other thing that sounds light, but isn't. I want to share a moment from "Curb your Enthusiasm" actress Cheryl Hines. So, she was on "The View" talking about her upcoming memoir, which is called "Unscripted," and she took some criticism from "The View" about her husband, HHS Secretary RFK Jr.

Here's an example.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Your husband is the least qualified Department of Health and Human Services head that we've had in history. I think that's a very dangerous, dangerous --

CHERYL HINES, ACTRESS AND WIFE OF ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: I do not -- I -- I am -- I completely -- well, why is he less qualified than an economist? How is that possible?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think that he is less qualified --

HINES: He has spent his career studying toxins, studying people's health, fighting for one guy who was using Roundup for his job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CORNISH: OK. Hines was also pressed by the co-host on her husband's position on vaccinations, which the host accused him of spreading misinformation.

Group chat is back.

I want to note, she made a reference there about an economist. That's because, under President Obama, Sylvia Burwell was an economist. So, I think she was trying to make a kind of what about point there.

I am fascinated by this because the MAHA movement is fueled by women, straight up. Like, so you walk --

LANZA: One hundred percent.

CORNISH: You walk into that conversation. Those are the right people to have that argument with. And the problem is, Bryan, I want you to address this, you've got 59 percent of Americans disapproving of RFK's moves. And independents are in that group of disapproval.

LANZA: Yes. No, listen, he has some strict -- he has some hard challenges ahead of himself. He's done some things that have created controversy within HHS.

But remember what the goal of the MAHA movement is. It's to empower women to make the choices regarding their families and their kids, and informed choice.

CORNISH: But are there women who have turned, right?

LANZA: I think it's too early.

CORNISH: If you're going on "The View" and you're going back and forth, are there --

LANZA: I think it's too early to say if anything has happened.

CORNISH: Ashley, what do you think? What are you hearing?

ETIENNE: Well, I mean, I just find all of this to be very hypocritical. I mean you've got an HHS secretary that's arguing against vaccines, and then you've got a president who's taking the flu shot and the Covid vaccine. I mean, like, this is -- this --

CORNISH: But they've always advocated for choice.

LANZA: Yes. Correct.

CORNISH: That was the issue, right? Not mandate, it's choice.

LANZA: it's always about choice.

ETIENNE: Sure. But I -- but I -- I don't -- I think that part of it is lost on the American people.

LANZA: No, it's not.

ETIENNE: I think the American people are processing this as, should I get a vaccine, should I not? Are they safe or are they not? And I think that's the danger.

TALEV: I think MAHA kind of means what you want it to mean. There are a lot of Americans who would like to see better food labeling, less chemicals in food --

LANZA: There you go.

TALEV: Less -- less dye in food, healthier children, healthier school meals.

CORNISH: Maybe deal with pesticides.

TALEV: Yes, all of that.

CORNISH: Ye.

TALEV: Who would still like to be able to get their vaccines on demand and not have contradictory recommendations that cause measles up -- you know, upticks in the country. So, it's quite complicated. It is a coalition of many different

people, of many different ideologies.

CORNISH: Yes. Yes.

LANZA: But -- but Stephanie (ph) -- Stephonie (ph) would --

CORNISH: And I would argue that the Tylenol thing pushed this into the independent lane as well.

LANZA: Yes.

CORNISH: Which is, all of a sudden you got saying someone don't take Tylenol while you're giving birth.

LANZA: Yes.

CORNISH: And there's lots of people with firsthand experience that said, como (ph). Who is that who is not going to take Tylenol?

LANZA: Yes, I mean, listen -- I mean, I had two kids. Tylenol was integral to -- to my wife's health during pregnancy.

CORNISH: Bingo.

LANZA: Let's just be clear. And my kids turned out OK.

[07:00:02]

CORNISH: OK. Well, you guys, thank you for chatting with me. We talked about a lot today. And I think keep an eye on that story about Hines as she's on this book tour because, obviously, what happens in Hollywood sometimes can reflect the sort of cultural moment and what people are feeling.

I'm Audie Cornish. And we've got plenty of headlines coming up for you next. "CNN NEWS CENTRAL" starts right now.