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Bolton Expected to Surrender to Authorities as Soon as Today; Mamdani Faces Off Against Cuomo, Sliwa in NYC Mayoral Debate; New Book: How Did America Come to Elect Both Obama and Trump? Aired 6- 6:30a ET
Aired October 17, 2025 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRIAN ABEL, CNN ANCHOR: -- down to Tee Higgins and Ja'Marr Chase. Cincinnati wins, 33-31. The Bengels improving to 3 and 4, while the Steelers still lead the division at 4 and 2.
[06:00:13]
And to baseball. The Los Angeles Dodgers are just one game away from returning to the World Series and defending their title.
In game three of their best of seven National League series, the Dodgers pulling ahead of the Milwaukee Brewers in the sixth inning. Final, score 3 to 1 Dodgers.
The reigning World Series champs are hoping to win game four for a sweep later today.
Thank you for joining us here on EARLY START. I'm Brian Abel in Washington, D.C. Erica Hill is up next when CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Another Trump critic indicted. CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.
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DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I think he's a bad guy. Yes, he's a bad guy. It's too bad.
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HILL: President Trump's former national security adviser, John Bolton, facing 18 criminal counts. Now he's responding to the charges.
President Trump chatting up Vladimir Putin ahead of his meeting today with President Zelenskyy. Is the end of Russia's war on Ukraine in sight?
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a U.S. citizen. I'm -- I'm here. I'm legal. I'm born here. So, they didn't -- they didn't try to hear none of that, though.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: The streets of Chicago resembling a war zone, say some. Is the ICE crackdown the solution or the problem?
Escalating the blame game. Why the Trump administration is convinced it's winning the government shutdown standoff argument.
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ZOHRAN MAMDANI (D), NEW YORK MAYORAL CANDIDATE: What New Yorkers need is a mayor who can stand up to Donald Trump.
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HILL: Is the Democratic Party shifting left? What New York's mayoral debate tells us about its new face, Zohran Mamdani.
And an American contradiction. The forces that pushed a nation into choosing Barack Obama and Donald Trump, back to back.
It is 6 a.m. on the East Coast. Here's a live look for you at the White House.
Good morning, everyone. A very happy Friday morning to you. It is October 17th. Nice to have you with us here on CNN THIS MORNING. I'm Erica Hill in for Audie Cornish.
For the third time in as many weeks, a political enemy of President Trump is under federal indictment. This time it is his former national security advisor, John Bolton.
Bolton is facing 18 counts of sharing and retaining national defense information. Each count carries a maximum sentence of ten years in prison. Bolton is expected to surrender to authorities in federal court in Maryland as soon as today.
President Trump, of course, frequently lashes out at Bolton, his former aide, especially in the wake of the book Bolton wrote detailing his experience in the first administration. Trump was asked about the indictment just moments after it was unsealed.
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TRUMP: I didn't know that. You're telling me for the first time. But I think he's, you know, a bad person. I think he's a bad guy. Yes, he's a bad guy. It's too bad. But it's the way it goes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think there's a case against him?
TRUMP: That's the way it goes, right? That's the way it goes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: The charges come after Bolton's home and office were raided by the FBI earlier this year. He is accused of sharing and keeping more than 1,000 pages of diary-like entries, which prosecutors say contained classified information.
In a statement, Bolton says the charges are just the latest retribution from President Trump and his Department of Justice, adding, quote, "These charges are not just about his focus on me or my diaries, but his intensive effort to intimidate his opponents to ensure that he alone determines what is said about his conduct."
Joining me to discuss, CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams. Elliot, always good to see you.
So, I think what's interesting, picking up on what John Bolton said there, a couple of things.
ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes.
HILL: No. 1, this was started under the Biden administration.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
HILL: This was signed by career prosecutors.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
HILL: This is definitely a bit different from what we're seeing in this indictment versus what we just saw recently with Letitia James and James Comey.
WILLIAMS: It really is. And in many regards, Erica, two things are true here.
One, there appears to be, at least based on what's on the page, appears to be some seriousness to these charges and some evidence backing them up.
But also, that the president has, quite impermissibly, stepped into weighing in on the particulars of litigation, including this one that could, quite frankly, jeopardize the case moving forward.
HILL: Jeopardize how? Jeopardize -- is it enough that it could be thrown out, essentially?
WILLIAMS: It could. It could. Now it's very hard to win -- to win motions for what's called selective or malicious or vindictive prosecution. They're all slightly different.
You know, it can be hard to win them. But if there is any case in which someone has at least a claim for it, it's one in which the president of the United States is on record texting the attorney general about litigation.
Now, again, not about John Bolton specifically. But when you add the text together and the other indictments and his comments about John Bolton, at least Bolton could go to court and say, Wait a second, your honor. This president and this and this Justice Department have really brought in other matters far beyond the particulars of my case.
[06:05:00]
HILL: So, it is, you know, comments that could be brought in. It is also -- I thought was super interesting in the indictment, some of John Bolton's past comments that were laid out.
And again, an indictment is one-sided as we talk about all the time. Right? This is coming from -- from the prosecutors. But the fact that they laid out moments, especially in response to Signal-gate at the Defense Department.
I just want to play one part of the comments that they highlighted in this indictment.
WILLIAMS: Sure.
HILL: Take a listen.
This should be -- we have a John Bolton -- we have some John Bolton sound. I believe it was April of 2025, and he's talking about how he can't believe somebody would be using a Signal chat. Take a listen.
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JOHN BOLTON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR UNDER DONALD TRUMP: I think the second example of a Signal chat group really shows a terrible lack of judgment. Communicating with the people in this group, in particular, who have absolutely no need to know about any upcoming U.S. military operation leads me to wonder what he's doing on the job on a minute to minute, hour by hour basis; that he's got time to -- to knock out Signal messages to -- to friends and family, which is what this group is.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: John Bolton is accused of sharing, essentially --
WILLIAMS: Yes.
HILL: -- classified information with Individuals 1 and 2, who are family.
WILLIAMS: Family members. It is incredibly deliberate that the Justice Department included that -- some of those quotes in there.
Because prosecutors are going to have to establish intent: not just that the person had the documents, but that he knew that he had them, and that he knew that what he was doing was wrong, was doing so in violation of law.
And putting all these statements about John Bolton saying, I know in other cases that the mishandling of information is improper, speaks to his intent, that he knows some of what the rules are. So, it was very savvy on their part to put that in.
HILL: And they also put in that indictment, to -- to your point about what they did put in there, that multiple times this information was shared; and even that some of these two individuals who are related to him were asking for information at one point: When am I getting this? Shh. Don't talk about that.
WILLIAMS: Right. And also noting that they did not have security clearances.
HILL: Right.
WILLIAMS: So -- which is -- which is an element of the offense: sharing with an -- with the -- with the transmission offense, the 10 -- or 8 charges that he'd gotten; that these people, that he knew that they didn't have background clearances and was still sending them information anyway.
So, it's a -- you know, compared -- contrasted to some of the other indictments, they were very specific about the information they put in here, both establishing that the defendant knew, that the defendant knew who he was sharing things with, and that he knew the content of the documents. All of it is one big.
HILL: Which also speaks to who was behind this in terms of prosecutors.
WILLIAMS: Yes. No, I mean, I think --
HILL: Experience wise, right?
WILLIAMS: They're serious lawyers.
HILL: Yes.
WILLIAMS: And I think in a way that, quite frankly, many of the others, at least as has been reported in some of the other cases, simply are not.
HILL: Yes. Elliot, appreciate it as always. Thank you.
WILLIAMS: Take care. OK.
HILL: Still ahead here on CNN THIS MORNING is Zohran Mamdani selling New York City residents a fantasy? His opponents seem to think so.
Of course, the real question is, what about the voters?
The group chat, as you might imagine, has some thoughts. They're discussing them right there. We'll bring them on set next.
Plus, we have seen a number of videos, violent arrests by federal agents. Well, a federal judge in Chicago has seen those videos, as well. And now she is demanding answers.
Plus, the No Kings protest planned nationwide this weekend. Has the GOP's spin set the stage for ugly crackdowns?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now they're gearing up for their "I hate America" rally this weekend, a rally where they'll cheer for chaos instead of country.
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MAMDANI: And what I'd tell the president is, if he ever wants to come for New Yorkers in the way that he has been, he's going to have to get through me as the next mayor of the city.
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HILL: Tough talk from New York's Democratic mayoral candidate Zohran Mamdani at last night's debate. He was facing off against former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, who is running in the race as an independent, and Republican Curtis Sliwa.
They piled on the attacks, raising questions about Mamdani experience. Also, whether he is strong enough to take on President Trump.
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MAMDANI: The difference between myself and Andrew Cuomo is that my campaign is not funded by the very billionaires who put Donald Trump in D.C.
ANDREW CUOMO (I), NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump would go through Mr. Mamdani like a hot knife through butter. He's been in government 27 minutes. He passed three bills. That's all he's done. He has no experience with Washington, no experience in New York City. He would be Trump's delight.
CURTIS SLIWA (R), NEW YORK CITY MAYORAL CANDIDATE: You lost your own primary, right? You were rejected by your Democrats. You're not going to stand up to Donald Trump.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Mamdani seems to be relishing some of the concerns about his age, using the opportunity to release a new campaign ad.
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MAMDANI: You're worried about a 33-year-old becoming mayor of New York City, and I want you to know, I hear you. That's why this weekend I'll be making a change. I'm turning 34.
Get that out of here.
The best gift is to beat Andrew Cuomo a second time. (END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Joining me now in the group chat, Noel King, co-host and editorial director of the "Today, Explained" podcast; Rob Bluey, president and executive director [SIC] of -- executive editor, rather, of "The Daily Signal"; Antjuan Seawright, Democratic strategist.
Nice to see all of you on this Friday morning.
Well, I'm just curious overall, your takeaway from what we saw last night from these three candidates.
NOEL KING, CO-HOST/EDITORIAL DIRECTOR, "TODAY, EXPLAINED" PODCAST: Well, Mamdani is a heck of a politician. Really, I thought he won that debate, clearly.
[06:15:00]
I was interested in the fact that Sliwa seemed to spend more time attacking Cuomo than he did Mamdani.
Sliwa felt very old to me last night. He was like, "Remember Governor Pataki?"
And it's like, no, everybody watching this debate is 40 and under. Like, nobody remembers Governor Pataki.
But I thought Mamdani handled himself really well. I mean, I know there is a lot of skepticism around his lack of experience, as Cuomo kept highlighting. But we are in a period of American history where people don't seem to think experience is as big a deal as they used to. And this is a guy who has seized on what New Yorkers and a lot of Americans really care about: high cost of living.
HILL: In terms of that cost of living, Antjuan, did he do enough to explain how he could make those things happen? Because the proposals are very well-received in New York City, where it is expensive.
ANTJUAN SEAWRIGHT, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: No, he did not need to. Last night, debate was about Cuomo trying to weaken his opponent and Mamdani trying to strengthen his position, i.e. on affordability. And the other opponent was just trying to exist.
HILL: But if he's strengthening his position on affordability, shouldn't he have to explain it?
SEAWRIGHT: Well, debates are not about explaining. Debates are about doubling down on what you've campaigned on. If policy details matter, then Donald Trump would not be president. And I think that's the lesson we all should take away from deep-dive policy discussions.
What I did think the assemblyman did a great job of doubling down on his position and differentiating himself from the entire rest of the playing field. And I think that gives him some credibility and momentum going into the race. Now, Cuomo did a great job of reminding folks of his experience, his
relationship with New York, and his history of delivering on issues that matter to New York. And so, they both were trying to, one, drive momentum towards and from their base. But also, Cuomo, I think, was trying to speak to an independent-thinking audience that may or may not exist in this upcoming election.
HILL: You said something that I think is really important that this is about speaking to -- I'm paraphrasing here. But it's about speaking to the voters of New York, right? And having them understand what are the issues to New York City.
This race has so much national focus, not only because there is a desire to perhaps anoint Zohran Mamdani as the new face of the Democratic Party. Not everybody is behind that, as we know.
But also, to paint this as a broader snapshot, I guess, of what the country could become. The reality is, New York is New York.
ROB BLUEY, PRESIDENT/EXECUTIVE EDITOR, "THE DAILY SIGNAL": It is its different than most other places in this country.
I think what Mamdani has done effectively, Erica, is that he has identified cost of living and affordability, which we know nationally are an issue after four years of Joe Biden and inflation being out of control.
SEAWRIGHT: OK.
BLUEY: This is -- it was. I mean, look at the -- look at the numbers. And he's recognized that that is a problem that he needs to address.
Where I think what you were getting at before is the solutions are really where you get into the details. Will the city council go along with it?
Certainly, there's going to be strong opposition from some parts of New York that don't necessarily like the socialist policies taking over their city.
And I think, ultimately, what you saw last night was not only a focus on that issue, but the crime issue. And that's where I think Curtis Sliwa did a fantastic job making sure that that was inserted in the debate, because that is a central issue in New York, as well.
SEAWRIGHT: Rob, first of all, who was the person you mentioned? Curtis who?
BLUEY: Yes. The Republican candidate.
SEAWRIGHT: That's the point I'm making.
But second of all, I just have to, like, respectfully, fundamentally disagree. We're in an affordability crisis, because Donald Trump and Trump's economy had put us there. And Democrats, Republicans, independents agree on that: from tariffs to everything else. And I think Mamdani did a hell of a job of making certain to highlight
the fact that we are where we are because of Donald Trump's economy.
What you can't debate with me or anyone else about is the fact that Donald Trump embraced, or was given, one of the healthiest economies post-COVID in the history of the world, and he fumbled it because he wanted to make a political point.
And America is too expensive as a direct result of Trump's handling of the economy.
BLUEY: Well, obviously, I disagree on that.
KING: I moved in New York in 20 -- 2003, so 20 plus years ago, as a very young woman, a child. And New York has been in an affordability crisis for 20-plus years.
This precedes Trump. This precedes Biden. Now, that is New York specific. But we are talking about a nationwide affordability crisis that has been going on for a very, very long time, especially if you are in the American middle class.
BLUEY: Yes, you can't afford a home. There are so many issues. And I think you're -- you're correct on that. Whatever politician is able to seize on that issue and present solutions that are reasonable and common sense to the American people, I think ultimately will be successful.
HILL: And we're going to do --
(CROSSTALK)
KING: -- do something.
SEAWRIGHT: And that's why Mamdani won the primary, because he was able to highlight a policy issue that transcends politics in New York and generational, et cetera. And that's the affordability crisis that New York is experiencing.
And a lot of that has been a direct result of the lack of doing something about it at the federal level, i.e. Donald Trump.
HILL: I have to put a button in this one. But the good news is you all are sticking around for more group chat, which I'm excited about.
SEAWRIGHT: I'm excited.
HILL: Stay with me. Good. I like it.
Much more to come, including he is a self-described violence interrupter in Chicago. We'll get his take this morning on whether the city's streets are safer since the president's crackdown began.
[06:20:06]
Plus, the American contradiction and the politics of revenge. A new book digs into how the country that elected Barack Obama then went on to choose Donald Trump.
And a good morning to our friends in New Orleans, the Crescent City. Ooh, that is beautiful. Connection Bridge lit up in pink for Breast Cancer Awareness Month.
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BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Because of what we did on this day, in this election, at this defining moment, change has come to America.
TRUMP: I am your warrior. I am your justice. And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution. I am your retribution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[06:25:04]
HILL: America has always been a country of contradictions, a country that promises equality while wrestling with blatant, entrenched inequality.
A country that celebrates freedom while pushing laws to control personal liberties.
A decade ago, the United States took a hard right turn from President Obama's message of hope and change to President Trump's view of a country in decline, needing to recapture its greatness, a message that is now also rooted in retribution.
In his new book, "American Contradiction: Revolution and Revenge from the 1950s to Now," Pulitzer Prize-winning sociologist Paul Starr dives into how we got here: from decades of social progress to the backlash. Paul Starr joins me now.
It's good to have you here. I mean, there is such a contradiction in this country that we have seen, even in the way America handles its diplomacy, telling other countries what to do while ignoring what's happening at home.
You make the case this started in the '50s. What got us to this point, to this contradiction?
PAUL STARR, AUTHOR, "AMERICAN CONTRADICTION": OK, well, I think -- I think you're right to set it up with Obama versus Trump, because that, in a nutshell, is the contradiction. There it is. Two sides of America. Two potentials that lie within our country's history, that have come out in such dramatically different ways.
So, I -- I think of this really going back to the founding of the country. This is a country that was founded in the contradiction between freedom and slavery. And we have fought over these issues in different ways at different times. And what we're going through now is another version of these battles
that we have in the past.
So, I begin this history -- and this book is a history of the country since the 1950s. And that kind of figures as a backdrop. Because so many people have used that era as a kind of benchmark.
And for some, it's a benchmark for how much progress we've made, and for others, it's a benchmark for how much we've fallen, who look back to that period as having been, in some ways --
HILL: Right.
STARR: -- a better society than the one we have today.
HILL: With such nostalgia, which --
STARR: Yes.
HILL: -- you know, also, I think, brings up another issue for this country, which is embracing the actual history, as opposed to perhaps a rosier view of it.
When you talk about the difference between, you know, going from Barack Obama to Donald Trump, the hope and change, the number of, I would say, political minds that I've spoken with, since 2008 to today, the number of people who have said to me, the reality is fear is a better motivator than hope. Would you agree with that?
STARR: I don't know that that's always true, but I do think fear is critical to understanding what has happened to the country over, let's say, the last 30 years.
And so, since the 1990s, there have been changes in our country: demographic changes in the racial and ethnic composition of the country; cultural changes. And those changes have landed very differently on the opposite sides of the political spectrum.
So, for people on the left, they've been a source of hope. In fact, even a source of overconfidence that the future was destined to be theirs.
And on the right, there's been a sense, I think, of impending political catastrophe from a new majority. The fear that -- that white people would become a -- a minority in the country. And fear about the cultural changes taking place at the same time.
And I think that -- that anxiety has played into the reaction that's taking place today.
HILL: Yes. So, real quickly, before I let you go, when we look at this contradiction, right, and the fact that we've gotten here, do you have a sense of how it ends?
STARR: No, I don't make any predictions in this book. I think we're now embroiled, enmeshed in the -- in this conflict. It's very hard to see what lands beyond it.
But, you know, but the one encouragement I would take is that there have been difficult and dark moments in our history before. And we've come out of them.
And -- and we need a leadership -- and I'm not sure who that's going to be -- who's going to be able to lead us through the darkness into a time when Americans have that sense of unity that we've had at other points in our history. And when we have a kind of peace that we don't have right now.
HILL: All right. Something a lot of people are looking for. Paul, it's great to have you here. Thank you. Congratulations on the book.
STARR: Thank you much, Erica.
HILL: The new book, again, is "American Contradiction: Revolution and Revenge from the 1950s to Now."
Straight ahead here on CNN THIS MORNING, escalating tensions in the Caribbean after another U.S. strike on a drug boat. Venezuela's president responding to the CIA operating in his country.
Plus --
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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody thinks they're winning. Nobody is winning when --
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