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House Releases Thousands of Epstein Files; SNAP Recipients, Air Travelers Still Facing Disruptions; White House: Inflation Data for October May Never Be Released. Aired 6-6:30a ET
Aired November 13, 2025 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[06:00:20]
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: OK. Donald Trump, stuck with the Jeffrey Epstein scandal? Or can he get out of it, like he has many times before? CNN THIS MORNING starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. THOMAS MASSIE (R-KY): This vote is going to be on your record for longer than Trump is going to be president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: So, the Republican House speaker promises a vote on releasing the Epstein files within days.
Trump's name comes up multiple times in lurid new emails released by lawmakers. What those messages say and what they don't.
And the White House summons a key Republican to the Situation Room. Could she be convinced to change her mind on releasing more documents?
And remember when MAGA's loudest voices were shouting for the release of the Epstein files? Well, it's kind of quiet out there today. We're going to talk about what changed.
It's 6 a.m. here on the East Coast. This is a live look at New York City. Good morning to everyone there.
And good morning to you. It's Thursday, November 13. I want to thank you for waking up with me. I'm Audie Cornish, and here is where we begin.
The government is officially open, and Congress is picking up where they left off two months ago, arguing about the Epstein files.
So, the swearing in of newly-elected Democrat Adelita Grijalva pushed an effort to force a vote on the Epstein files over the finish line.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ADELITA GRIJALVA (D-AZ): I will sign the discharge petition right now to release the Epstein files.
Justice cannot wait another day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: And now, after initially fighting to kill that vote, Speaker Johnson is vowing to bring it up early next week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN): -- the back and forth and what did he decide?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sorry?
BURCHETT: -- messing around. The Democrats have had the Epstein files for four years. And now we've got it for nine months, and it's going to be dragged into a bunch of nonsense. Let's just take it to the floor. Let's vote on it. Let's get on with it.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): It's a totally pointless exercise. It is completely moot now. We might as well just do it. I mean, they have 218 signatures. That's fine. I'll do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: So, the House Oversight Committee just released another 20,000 pages of documents, including emails from Epstein which include the name of Donald Trump.
Now, in those messages, Epstein tells Ghislaine Maxwell, quote, "I want you to realize that the dog that hasn't barked is Trump. An unnamed person spent hours at my house with him, and he's never once been mentioned."
Now, Trump did not send or receive any of these messages, and he he's not been accused of criminal wrongdoing in connection with Epstein or Maxwell. The White House and Trump once again called this all a hoax.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It just shows how this is truly a manufactured hoax by the Democrat Party. For now, they're talking about it all of a sudden, because President Trump is in the Oval Office.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Here's the thing. The vote was concerning enough to prompt a meeting at the White House Situation Room between top administration officials and Congresswoman Lauren Boebert just hours before the petition was passed.
Joining me now in the group chat, Zach Wolf, CNN senior politics writer; Mike Dubke, former Trump White House communications director; and Meghan Hays, former Biden White House director of message planning. So, I want to start with you, Zach, because it feels like maybe the
Trump White House, while saying this isn't that important, spent literally more hand-to-hand time on it than the government shutdown.
Like bringing in people. The Situation Room is involved.
ZACH WOLF, CNN SENIOR POLITICS WRITER: Yes. Let's go into the Situation Room to talk about this non-story.
CORNISH: Yes, which I thought was about national security.
WOLF: Yes.
CORNISH: So, explain to me what we're looking at in terms of how -- this kind of freak-out just before the vote.
WOLF: Well, and pretty much everything they do is -- they're in a bad situation, I think, from a messaging perspective here. Because it's pretty clear that, when these files are released, if ever, there will probably be some mention of Donald Trump in them. We know Elon Musk said that.
So, they are, you know, preparing for that eventuality, should these ever come out. But every little thing that happens contributes to this narrative that they're hiding something.
And as you said, Trump hasn't been accused of anything. It's pretty clear that he and Epstein had some sort of falling out that, you know --
CORNISH: Yes.
WOLF: -- that the girls may have had -- contributed to that. So, he has something to fall back on there.
But every little thing they do makes it seem like they're trying to hide something.
CORNISH: The other thing that I think is an issue is you have a Republican who has spent yeoman's hours pushing this in -- in Thomas Massie, the Republican from Kentucky.
[06:05:10]
I just want you guys to play -- to hear some of what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And how many Republicans you think will vote for this on the floor?
MASSIE: Well, I've already had a couple Republicans tell my office privately that they're going to vote for it. And I think that could snowball to be -- you know, the deal for Republicans on this vote is that Trump will protect you if you vote the wrong way. In other words, if you vote to cover up for pedophiles, you've got cover in a Republican primary.
But I would remind my colleagues that this vote is going to be on your record for longer than Trump is going to be president. And what are you going to do in 2028 and 2030 when you're in a debate, either with a Republican or a Democrat, and they say, How can we trust you? You covered up for a pedophile back in, you know, 2025.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: I can't explain it better than that. What do you think?
MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: I think that's a false choice, a false narrative that Massie's putting out.
I mean, right? Epstein has become this proxy war between Massie and the White House. So, we need to recognize that. And I think he's going to continue that proxy war as long as he can, because he's fundraising off of it for his own reelection.
On bringing Boebert into the Situation Room or just over to the White House to -- to say, hey, do you want to take your name off of this, so that she --
CORNISH: Yes, only she's claiming that he didn't specifically say that. Yes.
DUBKE: I'm sure -- I'm sure that he -- that they didn't specifically say that.
CORNISH: Yes.
DUBKE: But the message was probably pretty clear.
CORNISH: Once you're in the Situation Room, they lock the door behind you.
DUBKE: But of course. Yes. And you put your phone in a little cabinet.
CORNISH: Oh, great.
DUBKE: But the -- but I think look, from the White House's perspective -- and I think Zach nailed this -- the story here is never going to be great.
So, if we can push this story off so we can focus on other issues, that's -- that's what we're trying to do here. So, they're putting every effort into that.
But the Speaker is also correct. There's nothing really left here. Trump's going to be mentioned. Let's get it over with.
You know, the Democrats are not going to let go of this. Mainstream media is not going to let go of this. This has been a bad story for so long. Let's go.
CORNISH: I know -- MEGHAN HAYS, FORMER BIDEN DIRECTOR OF MESSAGE PLANNING: How do you know there's nothing left?
DUBKE: I'm --
HAYS: Because we don't have the files. So how do you know that there's nothing left?
DUBKE: We have a lot of the files, and I -- and if -- like most things in Washington, if there was some "there" there, it would be out.
So, what we're debating right now is really what could be left in the files. And after all of this time, as they put it for years with the Democrats. Now, whatever, 11 months with the Republicans. Let's just get it out. We should have done this in June.
HAYS: And to be clear, I'm not just saying about Donald Trump. I think there is a lot of things that are not out there yet about a lot of different people that the American people should know.
And this is one thing that's actually unifying the American people. It's like 8 in 10 people want to see these files or want to know more information.
CORNISH: Would Democrats be so excited about that if they thought there were more Democrats in the files?
HAYS: I don't think people care. I think that this is, like, a pedophile issue, and people are protecting a pedophile and trafficking. I think this is -- that is the issue here. For me, that is the issue and, I think for most Democrats.
I just don't think that Donald -- everyone knew Donald Trump was friends with Epstein. So what -- who is he protecting? Because I don't think he's protecting himself here. So, there's --
CORNISH: You guys stay with me, because we are actually going to have someone from the House Oversight Committee to talk about this.
DUBKE: All right!
CORNISH: You'll get another shot at it.
If you want to read more about what Zach's writing about all this, please subscribe to the "What Matters" newsletter. You can find that online at CNN. It drops every weekday.
And coming up on CNN this CNN THIS MORNING, I'll talk to a Democratic representative from Missouri. Why he says he couldn't support the deal to reopen the government.
Plus, the MLB's pitch-rigging scandal heads to the courtroom.
And federal workers return to the office today. But could we be back here in just a few months?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To my fellow federal employees, we all get ACT (ph) back pay. Pay them on bills first.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I hope we're not going to be right back here in a couple of months. But nobody knows.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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[06:13:33]
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Put yourself in their shoes, you know, what it would be like if you were to show up for your job and do this for seven weeks but not getting that paycheck that you usually do every two weeks. How are you going to make your way through that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: So, the government shutdown is over. The pain isn't, and it could take some time before life gets back to normal.
So, food lines persist. Right now, it's not even clear when nearly 42 million Americans will have their SNAP benefits restored. Frankly, it could vary state by state.
And furloughed workers returned to work today without knowing when they will receive back pay.
And air travelers are likely to experience delays and cancellations for weeks because of air traffic controller shortages.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY SCHIAVO, FORMER INSPECTOR GENERAL, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION: The cuts have to continue, meaning the cuts to the numbers of airline flights, until they have the full contingent of workforce back or rehired.
It's going to take a while to fully improve, and we will probably feel the effects even at Thanksgiving.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Group chat is back. I wanted to talk about this because we've talked so much about the politics of it, and on the Democratic side, there is a lot of infighting about how the ending was handled, especially coming out of the Senate with some people even saying that Senator Schumer should be replaced as leader for bringing it to an end without a guarantee on the things Democrats wanted.
Zach, can you help us understand why this has become an issue, given that it ended? WOLF: Well, I mean, after the elections, the -- you know, the blue-
state elections -- which we should recognize, those are blue-state elections -- I think Democrats felt very empowered with the -- you know, that they were in the right and that they were going to be able to get concessions from President Trump and the White House.
It's not at all clear that they were ever going to be able to get those concessions.
CORNISH: Yes.
WOLF: Because at the end, as they were, you know, moving to -- to -- as the eight Democrats moved to end the shutdown, President Trump was talking about further cutting SNAP benefits, about really digging in. So --
CORNISH: And fighting the courts on it, as well. So yes.
WOLF: Yes, exactly. So how long do you go?
CORNISH: Well, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez framed this sort of post-shutdown argument for Democrats this way.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): You have the refusal and the outright cruelty among House Republicans and the White House, who went to court to try to sue for their ability to deny people's access to food.
This is the reality that we're in right now, and we need to act like it. And we cannot enable this kind of cruelty with our cowardice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Meghan, can you talk about that word, "cowardice"?
HAYS: Sure. So, I don't disagree with what she's saying, but I also think we have to be realistic here. And this is where people, I think, outside of Washington, don't necessarily understand all the politics at play.
The Democrats were going to lose any leverage they had if they continued to let the shutdown go on health care in general, because the subsidies expire in December. So, if you don't -- they got a vote in December. They were guaranteed a vote.
They also got federal workers reinstated. They got back pay reinstated. They also -- you know, they got the SNAP benefits funded. So, they did get things.
But they were going to lose their leverage, and they weren't budging.
CORNISH: She's not from outside of Washington. She's deeply inside. So, what do you think she's leaning on that is -- that other people are following and saying like, look, we don't agree that this was a win for us.
HAYS: Well, that's bad messaging. And I think that Schumer messaged this terribly, because they could have had a joint statement with both -- both Houses.
And they could have gone out there and said, this is the reality that we're in. This is the situation we're in.
But it is completely cowardice that they're going to -- the federal government is going to take SNAP benefits to the Supreme Court and appeal giving people food assistance. I mean, that is just disgusting and gross. Like, what are we doing here?
But I just think that Democrats did not have a lot of options here. And they took people who were politically protected in their elections, in their reelections, to vote for this, to get the government back open, to get air traffic --
CORNISH: Yes.
HAYS: -- back up and running before Thanksgiving.
So, I just -- I think that Schumer, he did the same thing in March. He did not message this correctly. And I don't disagree. That's not being a good leader.
So, that is the issue here. The Democrats did what they had to do to get the government back open. And now they have a vote in the Senate.
DUBKE: I think the only thing that the Democrats got here is probably a new minority leader in the United States Senate. That's going to be the outcome of this.
What you -- the clip you just played is probably her first commercial in her primary against Chuck Schumer, when they're up for election.
But the -- you're -- you're absolutely right. The Democrats were not playing with a lot of leverage here. And they delayed and delayed and delayed. And we went so long to get basically what they could have gotten on, you know, day five of this shutdown.
CORNISH: Before I go, do you think, though, that because they were able to message link health care and the health care subsidies to this shutdown that Republicans will have to reckon with that?
Because before the Epstein thing was going down, people started to scramble --
DUBKE: Sure.
CORNISH: -- about their ACA bills that they had tucked in their pockets somewhere.
DUBKE: Look, this is a shutdown pause. This isn't the end of the shutdown. They got 25 percent of the bills agreed to. And now we've punted to January 30th. CORNISH: January 30th, yea.
DUBKE: So, what the -- what the Democrats got, probably, on the messaging on -- on the American -- on Obamacare, whatever we're calling it today.
CORNISH: Yes.
DUBKE: Whatever we're calling it today, they would have gotten in the first five days.
CORNISH: OK.
DUBKE: They won that messaging war and lost the rest.
CORNISH: Let's -- oh, OK. So, after the break on CNN THIS MORNING, I want to talk more about something else. The Reverend Jesse Jackson hospitalized. What we're learning about his condition.
Plus, what was the state of the economy during the shutdown? Honestly, you might not really know. And what does that mean for us now?
And as we go to break, take a look at this amazing video. It's the Southern lights. Basically called that, because this display is over Australia and New Zealand.
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CORNISH: So, if you're wondering what kind of impact the government shutdown had on the economy, the short answer is we may never know. And that's because the shutdown of the Bureau of Labor Statistics and critical inflation and jobs data for October might never be released.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HASSETT, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL: There's been, you know, quite a lot of disruption because of this terrible shutdown. And so, for example, I've been told that some of the surveys were never actually completed. So, we'll never, perhaps, even know what happened in that month.
And so, we're going to be staring a little bit in -- in cloudy, cloudy weather for a while until we get the data agencies back up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Courtenay Brown, senior economics reporter at Axios, joins the group chat.
I don't know if I can ask you to fact check that. What do you know about whether or not there was data or if there is data somewhere in a drawer that we'll never see?
COURTENAY BROWN, SENIOR ECONOMICS REPORTER, AXIOS: Well, we know the September jobs report was basically done and the government shut down a few days later.
So, when -- now that the government is back open, we should get the September jobs data relatively soon.
Now the question is about October. There was no one around to go and collect the data that comprises the jobs report, the consumer price index, the inflation data that we get, retail sales. There was literally no one around to collect the data. So, we may never get the data.
[06:25:03]
And it's not the kind of thing where you can backtrack, now that it's November, and ask people what happened in October. It doesn't make for good accuracy.
CORNISH: Yes. But we do hear things. So last week, the ADP National Employment Report showed that job growth had resumed in October after a downturn. The private sector added 42,000 jobs.
Is there a world of data that we can use to piece together what the economy looks like?
BROWN: So, at Axios, we have been celebrating jobs day, even though jobs day was suspended by the government shutdown. And what we've been doing is compiling all of these private sector indicators that you -- that you talked -- that you talk about.
And we've been trying to get a snapshot -- snapshot of how the labor market's been doing, how inflation has been performing. But it's not the same as the gold standard government data that we get on a monthly basis.
CORNISH: Is it good? I mean, at least it could be a little bit of an economic weathervane.
BROWN: I think that's the big question. So, when we get the September jobs report, I know that sounds like old news because it's November. But we will get to find out whether these private-sector indicators actually, at least directionally, gave us a good idea of how the labor market was performing.
CORNISH: Yes.
BROWN: So, when we get that data, is it going to be a huge shock for Wall Street? Because that report said the economy added jobs. But what if the government said the economy lost jobs?
So, there could be kind of a narrative check, if you will, once that data does come out.
CORNISH: Zach, do you think that firing the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, now this shutdown, that in a way, the White House has put us in a position where we don't know how to grade the economic report card of the president? WOLF: Well, I mean, he's been -- President Trump was complaining
before he was elected, you know, after he came into office about the data. And if it doesn't go in the direction he wants it to go in, he's going to complain about it.
We can assume that that will happen. And he will do it in this, you know, very loud and visceral way that, you know, that data is wrong.
So, I guess a lot of what your question depends on --
CORNISH: Yes.
WOLF: -- is do you -- do you believe the president or not?
CORNISH: Well, he's also been asked directly, like, Hey, this economy doesn't seem like it's going so great. Hey, prices are up.
I think I saw him in an interview on FOX trying to defend himself against that, and he pretty much pulled a Biden and said, It's in your head. The numbers are good.
DUBKE: Yes, that -- that's unfortunate, because I don't think that kind of logic worked for Biden the -- last year.
But I'm fascinated by, look, the -- the -- the head of Bureau of Labor Statistics had a 53 percent error rate in May. There was a reason to let her go.
I'm fascinated if we can maybe let the private sector. Maybe we should go month to month. We'll do the government one month, private sector the next month, and then --
BROWN: No. No, we have to --
DUBKE: I mean, that might be --
CORNISH: We're getting a no. Let's just --
DUBKE: That might be the exciting way to do it.
CORNISH: -- pick one.
DUBKE: Because if you look at September and then --
CORNISH: But why wouldn't that work?
DUBKE: Yes.
CORNISH: Tell me why.
BROWN: Because all of the private-sector data needs to be benchmarked to a larger universe. And the only entity capable of creating that larger universe so far has been the Bureau of Labor Statistics or whatever economic agency.
Governments really -- the government does a really good job putting out economic data. It's the gold standard of the world.
DUBKE: Yes. And they have a 53 percent --
CORNISH: The world.
DUBKE: The world. If they had a 53 percent error rate --
CORNISH: I don't know if we take the numbers, which I do question --
DUBKE: On the preliminary data.
CORNISH: On the preliminary data, of which there are almost always revisions.
DUBKE: Right.
CORNISH: And say that the entirety of the U.S. government data set is --
DUBKE: I would love for them to go, you know.
BROWN: Is there room for improvement? Sure.
DUBKE: OK.
BROWN: But I think what we have so far is envied by all of the rich nations. And the problems that you're talking about -- lack of survey responses -- these are issues that every single country on the planet is dealing with. It's not just the U.S.
So, there is room for improvement, but what we've got is pretty good.
CORNISH: OK, Courtenay, thank you so much for being here.
This Sunday, I want to bring your attention to a look into the extraordinary political career and life of New Zealand's former prime minister. Her name is Jacinda Ardern.
I was talking to her on this week's episode of "The Assignment," and I got to talk to her for the new CNN film called "Prime Minister."
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JACINDA ARDERN, FORMER NEW ZEALAND PRIME MINISTER: It's one of the really important principles of a strong, healthy democracy, is our ability to debate and build consensus.
And for that, you need to have a -- you know, some common ground. You need to really agree on what you're debating in the first place. What's fact, what's fiction? Have an agreed set of values about the way that you're going to engage in debate.
And some of that has been eroded.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: OK, so the new CNN film, "Prime Minister," premieres Sunday at 9 on CNN, and the next day, streaming on the CNN app.
And straight ahead this morning, Congress releases emails from Jeffrey Epstein about President Trump. I'm going to talk to a former federal prosecutor, next. Would this be enough for her to tie Trump to the Epstein case?
Plus, why the State Department is issuing a rare wildlife warning: watch out for the bears.
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