Return to Transcripts main page

CNN This Morning

Sarah Krissoff is Interviewed about Possible Arrests in Minnesota; Trump Heads to Davos; Edward Fishman is Interviewed about Trump's Pressure for Greenland; Trump to Pressure Europe for Greenland. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired January 21, 2026 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[06:30:00]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Saint Paul and a local county attorney. It's all part of a federal investigation, we're told, into alleged obstruction of immigration enforcement efforts. And it comes as Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem warns of arrests coming in connection to anti-ICE protests at a Minnesota church in Saint Paul over the weekend

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTI NOEM, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: And that pastor really did a remarkable thing there, trying to protect his parishioners.

And there's going to be arrests in the next several hours.

There will be arrests tied to that, and people will be brought to justice for how they violated the law in that situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Joining me now to discuss is Sarah Krissoff. She's a former federal prosecutor for the Southern District of New York.

Sarah, it's good to have you with us.

I want to start, if we could, on these subpoenas, which are reportedly being issued. We're talking about officials here.

I was speaking with another former federal prosecutor yesterday who said, this is highly unusual. This is not the way the DOJ does business. You don't issue a subpoena if you're potentially investigating someone.

SARAH KRISSOFF, FORMER U.S. PROSECUTOR, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK: Yes. I mean, if they want to be overt about it, they certainly can, you know, issue a subpoena to someone. The really sort of unprecedented issue here is the nature of this investigation. I mean, the -- these officials have spoken out against ICE's operations. There's been a lawsuit filed that's pending in federal court in Minnesota. And so to -- in that context, to then issue a subpoena and say, oh, actually, there's a criminal investigation going on here by DOJ. We are now seeking documents from you in connection with that. It just really sets up this showdown between the federal and local and state officials here.

HILL: And that's something I think people are trying to wrap their head around. Part of what we heard from Greg Bovino yesterday is he was saying that some of the local leaders, in his words, and I'm quoting here -- him here, "relied on heated rhetoric and allegations that distract from the facts."

Are words enough to lead to criminal charges?

KRISSOFF: I mean, listen, the DOJ has very broad discretion to open an investigation, right? They open it on the slimmest of innuendo or belief. But to bring charges is an entirely different thing, which is what we've seen, frankly, in connection with these other politically motivated prosecutions of politicians that have been unsuccessful in other jurisdictions. So, I mean, I think it is -- it is one thing to issue a subpoena and sort of, you know, try to make a show of force here. I think it will be an entirely different thing to try to proceed with some sort of charges or any type of charges, frankly.

HILL: And when we look at potential charges, when it comes to the protesters who were at that church in Saint Paul on Sunday ,you know, we're hearing from protesters right to free speech. This is a private space, though, and there is, of course, also right to religion in that space.

How do you see that playing out? This is what's calling into -- I believe it's called the FACE Act, which is a lot of -- which is a lot of what we're hearing. What could those charges potentially be?

KRISSOFF: Yes, a lot of these sort of circumstances, in addition, sort of the circumstances regarding the church, they seem like, you know, there are threats of charges. There are -- people are arrested. There are -- there is, you know, the DOJ is very clearly trying to bring the full force of itself down upon people. But at the end of the day, it is very hard to imagine these types of charges stick and that they go forward. And ultimately, criminal charges in our country have to be decided by a jury, right? The DOJ doesn't get to decide whether someone is guilty or not.

HILL: It is an excellent point. You talk about -- but you talk about the government bringing the full force. We also have, of course, "The Washington Post" reporting, DOJ is bringing in additional prosecutors to help when it comes to cases related to anti-ICE protests amid a staffing shortage. This comes on the heels of, I believe it was six prosecutors in Minnesota who resigned last week, although Pam Bondi then went on to say she was going to fire them. What does all this do in terms of pressure on prosecutors in this moment?

KRISSOFF: It is very difficult to be a prosecutor in the Department of Justice at the moment. So, there is a shortage of prosecutors across the DOJ, and there is also a shortage of career prosecutors. Many folks who have been there for many years have that expertise and knowledge, how to bring these cases, how to proceed with them judiciously, have left the Department of Justice. There was a real flight from the Department of Justice. And so they are -- the DOJ is understaffed generally at the moment, and they are really scrambling to sort of do the work and then to be pulled in all of these different directions, right. To be told on Monday they're doing one thing and Tuesday they're doing another and Wednesday they're investigating yet another, you know, political enemy really hinders the work that they are doing.

[06:35:00]

It makes it very hard for them to do the work and, frankly, unlikely that any of these sort of politically prosecuted -- politically motivated prosecutions will go anywhere.

HILL: Sarah, really appreciate your insight on this. Thank you.

KRISSOFF: Thank you.

HILL: Well, President Trump, of course, is on his way to Switzerland, set to touch down within the hour here. And he's expected to be facing a diplomatic intervention when he arrives. Sources telling CNN, NATO allies are prepared to use the World Economic Forum to defuse the president, or at least try to, when it comes to Greenland.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE LAGARDE, PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN CENTRAL BANK: This is a wake-up call. A bigger one than we ever had. And I think that Europe is going to look at its strength, look at its weaknesses, do a, you know, a big swot analysis and decide, what do we need to do to be strong by ourselves, to be more independent, to rely on the internal trade that we do with each other so that we can just, not ignore, but at least be prepared and have a plan b just in case the normal relationship is not restored.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Trump's pursuit of Greenland has not only rattled political leaders, but, of course, of financial experts and leaders, as you hear there, and also financial markets.

CNN business and economics reporter Anna Cooban is joining us now from London.

Anna, certainly a rough day for the markets here in the U.S. yesterday. What are you watching in terms of signs?

ANNA COOBAN, CNN BUSINESS AND ECONOMICS REPORTER: Well, yes. Also today we're seeing pre-market U.S. markets up slightly coming off their lows. But European markets mostly down. Obviously there is the prospect of this trade war between Europe and the United States. President Macron of France has made it quite clear that he's prepared to use the so-called trade bazooka of economic penalties against the U.S.

And remember that we've only seen a couple days -- or about to go into our second day of trade in the U.S. this week. There was a holiday on Monday. And yesterday the indices posted their worst day since October. So, clearly investors are very, very rattled by this. And it's not hard to see why. I mean CNN's Richard Quest was talking

with the head of the World Trade Organization yesterday, Ngozi Okonjo- Iweala, and she had this to say on the issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NGOZI OKONJO-IWEALA, DIRECTOR GENERAL, WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION: There's nothing we can do because it's outside of our remit (ph), a bit above our pay grade, if you want to put it that way, you know. So, using trade measures for geopolitical issues is not part of what we can deal with.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOBAN: And so, world leaders are looking at this situation, Erica, with a sense of helplessness. Even Trump's supporters are sort of coming out to decry what they're seeing. We see Ken Griffin, the CEO of Citadel, a massive hedge fund and a Trump voter today at the World Economic Forum talk about how he just can't understand how the U.S. has frayed its all-important relationship with Europe to this extent. And so, obviously, we're now looking to see what Trump's going to say later at the forum and see what happens next.

HILL: Yes, absolutely. A lot of waiting to see what those words will be.

Anna, appreciate it. Thank you.

Still ahead here on CNN THIS MORNING, tariffs, the president's favorite tool. Is it economic warfare rather? Some world leaders starting to say yes.

Plus.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Maybe I have the -- bad public relations people. But we're not getting it across.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Really? Just a comms problem?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:42:44]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCOTT BESSENT, TREASURY SECRETARY: I would tell everyone, take a deep breath. Do not have this reflexive anger that we've seen and this -- the bitterness. Why don't they sit down, wait for President Trump to get here and listen to his argument? Because I think they're going to be persuaded.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HILL: Time will tell as we wait for the president to make that argument. That is Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent, of course, trying to turn down the temperature earlier today ahead of President Trump's arrival in Davos. And the president's plane has just touched down now in Zurich. The flight was delayed overnight due to some technical issues on board Air Force One. President Trump is set to speak to a crowd of world leaders who are warning of a total rupture with the United States as Trump threatens tariffs over his fixation with acquiring Greenland.

Here's a little bit more of what Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney had to say. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK CARNEY, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: Great powers have begun using economic integration as weapons, tariffs as leverage, financial infrastructure as coercion, supply chains as vulnerabilities to be exploited.

Canadians know that our old, comfortable assumptions that our geography and alliance memberships automatically conferred prosperity and security, that assumption is no longer valid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Joining me now to discuss is Edward Fishman. He's the author of "Chokepoints: How the Global Economy Became a Weapon of War."

The title alone certainly speaks to what we were hearing there from Prime Minister Carney, who didn't, of course, address President Trump by name, but the inference was there. We also heard just a little bit earlier, my colleague Richard Quest was talking to the head of the WTO, noting that trade measures are not typically used for geopolitical issues.

That being said, are we now in this economic warfare?

EDWARD FISHMAN, AUTHOR, "CHOKEPOINTS": We certainly are, Erica. I think the new flavor that Trump has had added is not that we're at -- in economic war. Every single U.S. president in the 21st century has imposed sanctions at twice the rate of their predecessor. The new flavor from Trump is that he's weaponizing American economic power against everybody, not just against the Irans and Russias and Chinas of the world, but against our closest allies in Europe and countries like Canada and Mexico as well.

[06:45:00]

So, I think that's the difference, and that's why, to Mark Carney's point, this is such a rupture.

HILL: So, as we're starting to see at least rumblings of a pushback here, you have this week a Danish pension fund announcing it was going to sell off its holdings of U.S. treasuries, which is really important. That's worth about $100 billion. But planning to send them off buy -- sell them off by the end of the month. French President Emmanuel Macron is really trying to rally, in many ways, the EU.

Here's a little bit more of what he's proposing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT: Trade wars, protectionist escalation, racist towards overproduction will only produce losers.

Europe has very strong tools now and we have to use them when we are not respected and when the rule of the game are not respected, by the way. The anti-corruption mechanism is a powerful instrument and we should not hesitate to deploy it in today's tough environment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Making the push there for the anti-coercion mechanism, the so- called trade bazooka. When you see this, when you -- when we see the way that tariffs are being used by President Trump, who has the upper hand economically?

FISHMAN: So, look, the United States is the most powerful economic country in the world and certainly has substantial leverage over Europe.

That said, the U.S.-European economic relationship is not one of one way dependance in which Europe is just totally dependent on the U.S. It's actually one of interdependence. When you look at big Silicon Valley tech companies, they earn a huge share of their revenue in Europe. Meta, for instance, earns about 25 percent of its revenues in Europe. And to your point earlier, European investors hold around $8 trillion of U.S. stocks and bonds. That's about twice as much as the rest of the world combined. So, a lot of people talk about how China owns so much U.S. debt. It's actually European countries that own substantially more taken collectively.

So, look, if Europe was actually serious about using this trade bazooka, it could inflict substantial economic harm on the United States.

HILL: We're also seeing this -- I mean we're seeing a reworking of the world order, as we know. But based on what we saw last night, can -- or last week -- sorry, last week, Canada making a deal with China when it comes to electric cars. Really a shift there from Canada as well. You're seeing the way we heard from Christine Lagarde speaking at Davos, saying, look, we're not necessarily saying we're getting rid of the U.S. as a trading partner, but we have to be prepared for a plan b.

Is this also a reset of the world trade order, the world economic order, in that perhaps the U.S.' main trading partners will look very different even a year from now?

FISHMAN: Look, that's the trend line right now. I mean, if you look at, in the past year, the countries that have done the best managing Trump's economic threats, it's really China, Brazil and India. And the three sort of common factors is that, yes, they've retaliated, but they've also shown resolve. They've kind of rallied their national populations to absorb some economic pain, and they've shown resilience. They've diversified their trading relationships. Brazil is a great example where, you know, Trump imposed this 50 percent tariff on Brazil last year. He imposed sanctions on a Brazilian supreme court justice. And Brazil's exports to the United States fell by quite a bit. But they had the best year that they ever had trading with other countries. And I think that's the threat right now is that European countries, Canada, others, that they just say, you know what, we can't rely on the United States, so we're going to have to pivot to China.

HILL: Yes, it is a lot.

Edward Fishman, really appreciate you joining us this morning. Thank you.

FISHMAN: My pleasure.

HILL: And you can pick up his book "Chokepoints," which is out now.

You are looking at live pictures here from Zurich. Air Force One there, of course, touching down a short time ago. The president with the largest ever U.S. delegation in Switzerland for the World Economic Forum in Davos, where he will be speaking with leaders. And there is also talk about what those leaders may be saying to him. It's not just European leaders, it's important to note, with some anxiety over President Trump's push to acquire Greenland. Republicans are also increasingly nervous, some of them. Of course, you can't discount the fact that the midterms could figure in here, too, as well. Those just ten months off at this point.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DAN NEWHOUSE (R-WA): I have heard no compelling reason to support actions against NATO allies. We have capability of doing almost anything we want on Greenland currently, and so the case has not been made to me for the actions that are being described.

I would like to hear from the president what his true plans are here and some specifics, but we have to be very careful in this situation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Again, live pictures here that we're looking at.

The group chat is back with us.

So, I'm fascinated by this because we are starting to see -- and it's very measured language in a number of cases. But even just yesterday morning, Nicole Malliotakis, the congresswoman from Staten Island, was speaking with John Berman here on CNN, and she admitted to John that, no, Greenland is not a top priority for my constituents who are worried about affordability.

There is slight pushback, I guess, in some of the messaging. How much is that expected to grow?

TAL KOPAN, DEPUTY WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, "THE BOSTON GLOBE": Well, I mean, you mentioned the midterms being close.

[06:50:02]

Political leaders, at the end of the day, are going to look at their own political fortunes to make some of these calculations. And, yes, you've seen some of the Republicans on The Hill starting to push back.

I mean, I am paying attention less to sort of gentle quotes and more to, are they actually going to do anything that sends the White House a signal that says, hey, cool it.

HILL: Right.

KOPAN: And I think, you know, the White House is aware of the importance of maintaining control of Congress for the things that the president wants to do with his agenda. You know, they don't want to go through another impeachment, which Democrats are starting to talk about if they get the House.

If there's really alarm bells flaring about what might happen in the midterms, they might pay attention. But, truly, Republicans in Congress can say as much as they want about this being a bad idea. So far they've shown that when Trump actually does step over whatever lines they've drawn, they fall in line.

HILL: They fall in line, often, yes.

ANTJUAN SEAWRIGHT, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: You know, it's -- the price tag for Greenland is $700 billion, Charlie. In this country, the Republican health care crisis, a long term fix, permanent fix is about $383 billion, $25.9 billion to do it for a year, I think 55 billion to do it for two years. So, my point to you is, show me your budget, show me your priorities, I show you what you value. Americans are going to die if this health care crisis is not dealt with in a real way. Twenty-five million Americans, 18.2 million Americans in red states.

The MAGA-nomics continues to be a failure from an economic standpoint. And the reality for feel-a-nomics, that's economics Charlie and I can feel, has been a total disaster. And that's why Republicans on Capitol Hill are starting to realize, if we do not fix this affordability crisis we've created, were not going to maintain control of Congress.

CHARLIE DENT (R), FORMER PENNSYLVANIA CONGRESSMAN: Well, I think we can look at the political considerations of what's happening here. But it's much bigger than we realize. You know, we spent so much time talking about ballrooms, renaming the Kennedy Center, you know, the Epstein files, now Greenland, tariffs. I mean this is having an accumulative effect on Republicans. And there are only about 35 to 40 seats that are really competitive.

I talk to a lot of these Republicans. They know they're in deep trouble. All of this is harming them politically. They get it. And like right now, as you just pointed out, with -- with -- OK, with the Greenland situation, I mean Congress should have resolutions on the floor of disapproval of taking Greenland. I mean it's one thing talking about it. HILL: Right.

DENT: They know -- they have -- they have agency. They could do something.

SEAWRIGHT: But because Trump is a bully and he's been an American bully, both at home and on the world stage, Republicans are fearful of him. And that's why you see the lack of courage in the response.

HILL: So, speaking to that point, I want to play a little bit of what Republican Congressman Don Bacon had to say and was very clear, in his mind, this is not about politics. It's a little bit more of what you're speaking to, Antjuan.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DON BACON (R-NE): It's not right. I mean it hurts them politically, but it's also just not right from a, I'd say a moral perspective. You don't threaten allies and treat them that way, especially when they would cooperate with us at all times on anything we wanted to do there to begin with. They want our presence, but they don't want us there if we're threatening them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: We've certainly heard from world leaders this is not how you treat allies. The word bully keeps coming up but also this moral perspective. Has -- does the U.S. still have any moral authority?

DENT: Well, look, he was the base commander at Ramstein Air Base, Don Bacon. He understands this whole transatlantic alliance, the need for partners.

Trust has been shattered. They don't -- our friends don't trust us. They don't -- they expect us to be responsible stewards of the international financial system and the dollar and, you know, not attacking the Fed. There is a complete and utter rupture, as the Canadian prime minister said.

HILL: And also, we have the president, you know, famously in that "New York Times" interview from, was it last week or the week before? I've lost all sense of time at this point. But when asked specifically about international law, I mean, when prodded, said, yes, sure, I'll abide by it. I have to. But was very clear that, like, maybe not.

KOPAN: I mean this entire year, the beginning of his first term has been characterized by Trump essentially saying, you don't want me to do that, prove it.

HILL: I'm going to do it.

KOPAN: Make me. Make me abide by your rules, right? And in the first term we really saw, he threatened a lot of these same ideas in the first term. But he had people in his orbit, he had members of his cabinet, he had concern, you know, what leaders in Congress said. And there were many, many times where he sort of pulled back his impulses.

This term has been characterized by, if he says it out loud, if he says he wants to do it, his staff, his cabinet say, great, let's make it happen.

HILL: Right.

KOPAN: And you proved to us that there are consequences or reasons that we shouldn't. And there -- most of the time he's gotten away with obliterating those guardrails.

[06:55:01]

SEAWRIGHT: Because there are no consequences. There are -- there are no political consequences to this point.

And with all due respect to the congressman, who's now leaving the Congress, he had an opportunity to speak up when he was running for re-election. And many of them, the only ones who are speaking up at this point are the ones who are not seeking re-election. And that's where the disconnect has been with how we proceed as a country and Congress doing its job, providing oversight to the executive branch. There are no guardrails, no checks and balances to this bully president we have.

DENT: Well, you know, before Trump used to test boundaries. Now he just ignores them. I mean that's what's totally changed. And in the first administration, he had people like John Bolton, who had a worldview, and McMaster and Mattis.

HILL: Yes.

DENT: And these people, you know, kind of more along -- closer to my thinking, they're gone.

HILL: Yes.

DENT: And there's nobody there to push back. I mean other than -- it seems like there's just more enablers there. You got Stephen Miller out there saying, you know, right on.

HILL: Well, and to Tal's point too, it's also the, you know, it's the flooding the zone on a number of levels, right? But I'm going to do this and then prove that I can't. There are also so many -- there are a number of efforts to push back on some of what's been done legally and in other respects, but that also takes time. And so, as it's unfolding, it just continues on.

KOPAN: Yes. And a lot of the potential consequences that are warned about as the reasons not to do this, I mean, those are consequences that unfold over a long amount of time. You talk about sort of an economic trade war pain. We saw a lot of businesses this year kind of eat the impact of the tariffs instead of pushing them onto consumers. They didn't hire as many. Those types of things do have impacts, but it takes a while for those impacts to unfold. HILL: What's interesting, you mentioned -- you mentioned the impact of

the tariffs. So, we had this reporting from the Kiel Institute, right, and "The Wall Street Journal" wrote it up earlier this week, about Americans actually paying for the tariffs. President Trump yesterday saying, you know, maybe he needs new, better communication staff, I'm paraphrasing here, at the briefing. Was upset by, frankly, what he and his campaign staff rightly pointed out when it came to President Biden and the election in 2024, which was that the Biden administration and the former president weren't hearing people, right?

So, Donald Trump wants to point to economic numbers that look good in some cases, but he is ignoring what people experience and what their reality is on a daily basis when they try to pay their electric bill that has doubled or tripled, or eggs are still expensive. He's now on the receiving end of that.

SEAWRIGHT: Well, we say down south, there's no education in the second kick of the mule, Charlie.

DENT: The Mule. Yes.

SEAWRIGHT: So, let me just say to President Trump and team Trump. Look, we lost an election because people ignored the most important economic factor, feel-o-nomics, economics you can feel. And so when your gas, groceries and goods, services, electricity, everything that's supposed to be down is up, and what's up is down, you find yourself sitting in a political crisis.

DENT: You know, the president got his undergraduate degree from the University of Pennsylvania, Wharton School of Business.

SEAWRIGHT: Are you sure?

DENT: Every time the president says that, you know, the Chinese pay the tariffs, that sound you hear, the sounds of heads exploding at the Wharton School. I mean we know that tariffs protect the privileged few at the expense of the many. We know that consumers are going to pay -- American consumers, manufacturers, ranchers, retailers, farmers. We know this. And now we're finding out that the CEO of Amazon just said --

HILL: Yes.

DENT: Yes, guess what, your -- the tariffs are causing prices to go up.

HILL: That prices are up. Yes.

DENT: I mean, that's an inconvenient fact.

HILL: We also have it, of course we're -- we are staying on these live pictures here as we wait for the president to come -- come down the stairs, to exit Air Force One there.

But as we look at, in terms of the tariffs, what's also fascinating is, we're still waiting on this decision from the Supreme Court. KOPAN: Yes.

HILL: And the president was asked about it yesterday in the briefing. I'm just calling up my notes from yesterday's briefing, where he said, and I'm quoting him here, he was talking about the tariffs, saying, he doesn't know what the Supreme Court's going to do. I don't know if there's a case there. He said, quote, "if we lose, it's possible we're going to have to do the best we can in paying it back. Not sure how it can be done easily without hurting a lot of people." That was a moment in and of itself.

KOPAN: Yes, I mean, the people who watch those oral arguments thought, there's a decent chance that Trump loses this case.

HILL: Yes.

KOPAN: But the question of then what happens is a tricky one. But, yes, it's -- it was sort of a rare moment of self-awareness from Trump.

HILL: Yes.

KOPAN: A sort of, you know, what is the next step if I lose this case?

DENT: His next step is going to be to reimpose the tariffs under 232 --

KOPAN: New authority.

DENT: A national security authorities. He'll reimpose them under an -- under unfair trade practices Section 301. He's going to turn around and just do it again.

And these $2,000 rebates, I mean, why not just get rid of the tariffs. Don't send me a check back. Don't tax me and then send me $2,000. Just get rid of the tax.

SEAWRIGHT: The damage has been done. The promises made to lower costs for everyday Americans, including those who voted for Donald Trump in, quote/unquote, red states and independent voters, the damage is done. And that's why you see farmers and others speaking out and crying out for help.

HILL: We will see how it all plays out.

[07:00:01]

Great to be with all of you this morning. Thank you for being here on this day. No shortage of news to talk about.

The live pictures, of course, you are looking at, Air Force One there on the ground in Zurich, Switzerland. President Trump will be making his way to the World Economic Forum in Davos this morning. We are waiting for him to disembark there.

Stay tuned. We have full coverage for you throughout the day right here on CNN. I'm Erica Hill. Thanks so much for starting your day with us here on CNN THIS MORNING. The headlines are next.