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Michigan and Kansas Debates: Where Do Your Loyalties Lie?; Russian Frees U.S. Prisoner Stephen Hubbard; Peter Thiel on Iran War: 'We Should Not Have Done It'. Aired 6-6:30a ET
Aired October 22, 2026 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
BRAD SMITH, CNN ANCHOR: Authorities say that the guy crashed into a wooded area, and the car caught fire. He stopped breathing after he was pulled out. They performed CPR to get him breathing again until medics arrived.
[06:00:12]
What a save and just an amazing rescue by the deputies there.
All right. That does it for CNN HEADLINE EXPRESS. I'm Brad Smith. CNN THIS MORNING with Audie Cornish starts right now.
AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR: Today in the group chat, we are talking about the Senate candidates who went head-to-head in the last debate before election day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE ROGERS (R), MICHIGAN SENATE CANDIDATE: Are you for America, or are you for these terrorist groups overseas?
ABDUL EL-SAYED (D), MICHIGAN SENATE CANDIDATE: To bring in and question my commitment to the Constitution is really beneath you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Will attack lines like that work on voters?
Plus, J.D. Vance has two words for critics of the GOP attack ad that dredges up a Democrat's childhood trauma: quote, "Stop whining." Could this stance backfire on Republicans?
Also, at least two Bush family members back James Talarico over Republican Ken Paxton. Is that a bad sign for any Texas Republican?
And bringing up the rear. Why can't Trump stop talking about men's good looks and their behinds?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: I looked at his ass.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Good morning, everybody. I'm Audie Cornish. Here is where we begin.
With less than two weeks to go until the midterm elections, Senate candidates in Michigan and Kansas held their final debates. And loyalty was the word of the night.
In Kansas, the candidates had to answer the question, where do their loyalties lie? For the Republicans, it is with Donald Trump. And for the Democrat, Chuck Schumer?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADAM HAMILTON (D), KANSAS SENATE CANDIDATE: We've heard Chuck Schumer mentioned, I don't know, 50 times, maybe. I'm going to exaggerate. Maybe 20 times so far.
I find that interesting. I've already said I wouldn't support Chuck Schumer for Senate majority leader if the Democrats took control of the Senate.
SEN. ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): President Trump is not always right. But I do think that we -- it's great that I have a relationship; that I can pick up the phone and discuss with him the pros and cons of what he's contemplating.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Meanwhile, in Michigan, you had Abdul El-Sayed once again questioned about his allegiances.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGERS: If you are going to go to the United States Senate, we need to know are you for America or are you for these terrorist groups overseas? You can grin, and you can smile, and you can talk real pretty. But I'm going to tell you what: that is a risk to our national security.
EL-SAYED: To bring into question my commitment to the Constitution is really beneath you. I am proud of America. I'm proud to be an American. I'm proud of our Constitution that guarantees all of us the right to pray as we choose to pray.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is your time, Dr. Sayed.
EL-SAYED: And the question that you would ask that, I think, is actually really quite shameful.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Today in the group chat, Cari Champion, CNN contributor and host of the "Flagrant and Runny" podcast; Mike Dubke, former Trump White House communications director; and Corbin Trent, former comms director for Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. Thank you so much for being here.
So, I want to start with you, because we were talking just before the show started, about Abdul El-Sayed having to deal with these questioning of his allegiances --
CARI CHAMPION, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes.
CORNISH: -- specifically as a Muslim, that -- saying that he's connected to the Muslim Brotherhood, all of this stuff.
And it's funny: 25 years after 9/11, for the first Muslim American to be trying to sort of win a Senate seat, I actually find this whole line of questioning not surprising.
CHAMPION: I find it not surprising, but I am, if I'm honest, if like in my core, I think, Oh, wow, this is an issue. And I do believe that it's starting to penetrate.
I mentioned to you before the show what we were talking about. A friend of ours interviewed him in Detroit. And people know in Detroit his relationship or what black people think of him is not necessarily great because of the relationships and the tensions that exist in that community between the Arabs and the and the black community.
The fact that people are asking him this, and you may have seen that viral video. He said, it's an assumption. When I walk in a room, that is the assumption: that I am not for America, by looking at me. Something that a lot of marginalized people, black people, women can relate to.
And so, I found it very interesting, because if I thought about it, I said I could see this penetrating. I see people hesitating, not so much because of just our thoughts, our confirmation bias, but more importantly, I do believe it's the way he's responding to it. People want it to be a little more full-throated.
CORNISH: Yes. Also, if you're stuck responding to it, you don't get to talk about what your opponent is doing.
CHAMPION: Yes.
CORNISH: And it seems like he's sort of trapped in that vortex of, like, trying to point things out, but not getting there and having to defend.
Here's an example of Mike Rogers having to walk a fine line when it comes to Trump's tariffs. So just give an example.
[06:05:05]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROGERS: I think it's a mixed bag. But here's what I will tell you.
The reshoring of manufacturing is underway. I completely support that.
Some of these small fabrication shops adding second shifts and/or third shifts for the first time in decades. Those are a positive development for the great state of Michigan. I have stepped back and said maybe these Canadian tariffs were not
well thought through, mainly because of the interaction between our automobile companies and Canada when it comes to just-in-time manufacturing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: It doesn't really sound like Mike Rogers can and should spend a lot of time talking about this. Like, he's not saying these tariffs have been great.
MIKE DUBKE, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: No.
CORNISH: He's not saying this Trump policy has been great, right? Like, we're pretty much focused on the other candidate at this point.
DUBKE: Well, and that's a -- that's a position of strength for Mike Rogers.
I mean, if you're -- if your other candidate -- if your opponent is defending himself the whole time, and that's where the debate is, and you're able to then put forward in that clip that you just showed, I mean, talking about manufacturing jobs, talking about an economy that's getting better.
CORNISH: Yes. But you don't have to talk about --
DUBKE: That is a good place for Mike Rogers.
CORNISH: -- the $5,000 per household that tariffs have cost Michigan families, right? Like, no, he's in a strong, as you said, a strong position.
DUBKE: A much stronger position.
CORNISH: Yes.
DUBKE: And you want to stay in that strong position.
CORNISH: Go ahead.
CORBIN TRENT, FORMER COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR ALEXANDRIA OCASIO- CORTEZ: I don't think so, though. Actually. You don't have to talk about the $5,000 that the tariffs have cost the American people. Because people are feeling that.
The -- the problem is, is that people feel this economy. People feel -- what they're not feeling is that, oh, this -- small shops opening up a second and third shift. If people felt that way, if that was a general consensus among the American people, we would not be having these conversations right now.
The feeling is this economy stinks. The way we're going forward stinks.
And the fact is, Abdul has stuck to his guns. He has said, hey, what I want to do is get money out of politics, put it in your pocket, pass Medicare for all. He stayed on that.
CORNISH: So, what's your response to --?
DUBKE: But it's not -- it's not -- well, I mean, just briefly, I mean, it's just not coming through.
TRENT: Oh, I think it's coming through --
DUBKE: I don't. I think he's --
TRENT: -- very clearly for the people in Michigan.
DUBKE: Oh, I don't.
CORNISH: Well, I'll show the polling for a second, so you guys don't have to debate via vibes right now.
DUBKE: I wanted to debate via vibes.
CORNISH: It's -- it's OK. It's within margin of error. OK? Forty-nine percent to 47 percent. It is close.
I want to turn to something else that's close, because I didn't expect it.
DUBKE: I want more vibes, Audie.
CORNISH: Well --
DUBKE: More vibes.
CORNISH: I have some for you. What's the matter with Kansas, as they used to say.
Here's an example of what's going on there. There is a conversation happening about immigration and ICE raids, which happened on some grain-fed sort of beef plants in the last couple of months.
So, the candidates have actually had to go back and forth about it. Here's a sample.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARSHALL: The first thing I did when I saw what was going on in Southwest Kansas, I picked up the phone and called Secretary Markwayne Mullin and said, Hey, I don't think this is quite right. What's going on?
HAMILTON: We've militarized and politicized ICE, as opposed to them doing the important job they're supposed to do, and that is protecting Americans from dangerous -- dangerous people.
This is really harming people in the livestock industry, the dairy industry, and it doesn't reflect who we are as Americans.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CORNISH: I thought it was curious. The very first answer you hear someone saying, "I picked up the phone, and I was mad at ICE" is the Republican in the race?
CHAMPION: Yes.
TRENT: I mean, that's what's happening in communities, though. Where I live right now, there's a big fabric of my community that is Hispanic, that are immigrants.
And a lot of those folks are afraid to go to work. They're afraid to drive to Walmart. They're afraid to go to the grocery store. They're afraid to drive their kids to school. Why? Because they're afraid of ICE.
CORNISH: But I expect you to say that. I don't expect an ally of Trump to say that.
DUBKE: Oh, I do. I do.
TRENT: People are feeling it.
CORNISH: You do? Go on.
DUBKE: And here's -- and here's why. Because you've got -- we've got -- you know, whatever happens in these midterms, we've got two more years of the Trump administration. You're in a ruby-red state, and you've got a senator who says that I can pick up the phone, call the White House, and get change done.
CORNISH: So, the phone pick-up is the part of the story.
DUBKE: The phone pickup is exactly part of the story that you should be focused on.
CORNISH: OK, OK. I got it.
DUBKE: And what he's pushing.
CHAMPION: He's saying he has connections.
CORNISH: All right.
DUBKE: Yes.
CORNISH: Well, coming up on CNN, we're going to talk about a couple other races. Of course, Texas. You didn't think we'd forget Texas. There could be new warning signs for Ken Paxton as parts of the Bush dynasty come out in support of his opponent.
Plus, Trump says he gave Putin nothing for freeing an American. Then he tied his release to waiving Russia sanctions. We're going to try and find out the truth.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:13:45]
CORNISH: OK, we're learning this morning that a 74-year-old American is back home after being imprisoned in Russia for more than four years.
There are questions about what, if anything, Trump gave Vladimir Putin to secure this release.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said you didn't give Russia anything in exchange in exchange for this release.
TRUMP: If I would have done that, you would not have Mr. Hubbard coming back.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, you did give him something in exchange for the release?
TRUMP: Right now -- right now -- and you don't know anything. I mean, you're fake news, CNN. Look, right now you have a man that's beautifully flying from Russia to wherever he's landing in the United States that I got out because I had a very good and very fast negotiation with President Putin.
If you would have put those sanctions on, or whatever you want to call them, you could forget about him. You'd never see him again. He'd be back in jail for 25 years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: So, he didn't give him anything. Or was it the sanctions relief?
The group chat is back.
When the sanctions relief came up, we were all like, what? Why? How? You just went to the U.N. and told everyone that, in honor of the late Lindsey Graham -- you know what I mean?
DUBKE: Absolutely.
CORNISH: It was a whole thing. And then, all of a sudden, it was not. And I think what has sort of added to that is Steve Witkoff's comments that he made in St. Petersburg. This was on Wednesday. I just want to play that for you guys.
[06:15:01]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEVE WITKOFF, U.S. SPECIAL ENVOY: You talk so much about my president, President Trump, being a humanitarian. You are -- you are a humanitarian also, sir. And I salute that. I commend you.
(END VIDEO CLIP) CORNISH: Art of the deal?
DUBKE: Yes. I mean, let's -- let's be frank about this. Part of -- you create a negotiating situation in which you've -- you've pushed something all the way to one side, and then bring it back in order to get something you want.
I don't know why we don't call these prisoners hostages, because that's basically how Russia treats them. And so, did he negotiate --
CORNISH: So, is Vladimir Putin a humanitarian?
DUBKE: No, he's a hostage taker.
CORNISH: OK.
DUBKE: Art of the deal is getting your hostage back.
CORNISH: Yes.
DUBKE: It isn't calling an authoritarian a humanitarian.
CORNISH: Some people disagree.
DUBKE: That -- that --
CORNISH: Senator Thom Tillis: "WTF, Steve. Look up the def" -- he's really just YOLO BOLO.
DUBKE: Yes.
CORNISH: "Look up the definition of humanitarian. What an embarrassing and outrageous thing to say."
DUBKE: It was.
CORNISH: "You should go back to Ukraine and ask the families of the children Putin has kidnapped and murdered whether they agree your friend Putin is a 'humanitarian.'"
DUBKE: But Audie, you asked me two questions.
CORNISH: Tell me. Yes.
DUBKE: I'm giving you two different answers.
CORNISH: I want to know.
DUBKE: I'm telling you the art of the deal on the negotiation to get the hostage out. And Witkoff never should have said what he said. So, I agree with Tillis on that part of it.
But that's why, you see -- you called it whiplash in the U.N. That's why you have that whiplash.
CHAMPION: Wait, wait. So, the art of the deal included him saying that he should -- he's a humanitarian?
DUBKE: No. Not at all.
No, no, not at all. Not at all.
CORNISH: I just didn't know --
DUBKE: It's just getting the hostage out.
CORNISH: -- is Witkoff was there to soften things up.
TRENT: Did you think that was part of the deal, though? You thought that was negotiated in as the humanitarian call or no?
CORNISH: Maybe an award was made.
DUBKE: Maybe. Maybe.
CHAMPION: Maybe he's disrespectful. I really --
CORNISH: Say more.
CHAMPION: I think it's disrespectful to the -- to the war criminal that he is. The fact that he is also helping Iran. The fact that we pretend like they -- like, they are for America, and they are not. And he called him a humanitarian.
Now, for instance, this special envoy reminds me of "The Diplomat." Like when you think of what, what exactly is --
CORNISH: Are you talking about Netflix's "The Diplomat"?
CHAMPION: Yes, I am.
CORNISH: OK. I just want to let the audience know.
CHAMPION: I'm sorry. TV.
CORNISH: Yes.
CHAMPION: We talk the TV.
CORNISH: Yes, we do.
CHAMPION: But the reality is, is like, he shouldn't have been there. Just like how you're like, what are you doing? Why are you saying this?
CORNISH: Yes.
CHAMPION: What is your --
CORNISH: Well, the reason why I want to talk about it is because we're -- we're going on and on about a word. It's the word reflecting policy, a softening of policy is the perception.
CHAMPION: That's right.
CORNISH: Here is Brian Kilmeade on FOX News when he heard of Witkoff praising Putin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN KILMEADE, FOX NEWS HOST: What an embarrassing statement that is.
I mean, the Russians must be laughing their heads off, going, are you kidding? I cannot believe this is happening. That just makes you look naive.
A humanitarian? This guy kills his opponents. He arrests -- he arrests journalists, tries to poison people wherever they are around the world. He's bombing innocent people on a daily basis, where the Ukrainians can honestly say they don't aim for a single civilian.
Ladies and gentlemen, anyone listening, if you see Vladimir Putin, do not call him a humanitarian. No one will take you seriously.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHAMPION: No one.
TRENT: Well, I mean, I think the other thing that I find troubling about this entire deal is that you start to question who we're told our enemies are, right?
I mean, if this country isn't an enemy, if that person is a humanitarian, not an authoritarian, then do words mean anything? Why are we supposed to possibly send our children to fight wars? Because were told that this person or this country is evil or despicable. You start to lose faith in the words and in the -- in the response of your government.
CHAMPION: Well, a few weeks ago, people were saying how he has such a -- he, Trump, has such a relationship with other dictators. And he feels some sort of envy towards them, as if he really --
DUBKE: Come on.
CHAMPION: Like. Yes, like he really wants to understand how they were able to do what they do, their -- their consumption of power.
And -- and that's a lot of what we're watching right now. He is capitulating in a lot of ways and suggesting that these people are his friends, when they have been known enemies to the United States of America. And I thought this was about making America great again.
Here we are, two weeks out from the midterms, not even that far away.
CORNISH: I know. But it feels like such a disconnect. You're saying capitulating. We heard Kilmeade saying naive.
CHAMPION: It's all these things.
CORNISH: Others saying embarrassing.
DUBKE: Yes.
CHAMPION: Yes.
DUBKE: None of that reflects U.S. policy right now.
CHAMPION: At -- at this whole point.
(CROSSTALK)
TRENT: -- is all I can say.
CORNISH: U.S. policy is Russia, can we pay you for some gas? Russia, you're really the guys that are struggling in this war with Ukraine. Russia, we feel for you. That's -- that is what our actual policy is conveying.
CHAMPION: Yes.
DUBKE: You asked two separate questions.
CHAMPION: Oh, Lord.
DUBKE: And I'm getting back to this.
CORNISH: No, I want you to.
DUBKE: I am in full agreement with this table and with Kilmeade. That was not a word that should have been used. It is -- it is it is a -- Witkoff should not have gone where he went.
The other part of this, when you say art of the deal with Donald Trump, it is this continuation of pushing far on one side and then giving back, treating, in his words, he will say that if you constantly condemn the people you're negotiating with --
CORNISH: Yes.
DUBKE: -- you are very unlikely to get any sort of deal.
CORNISH: That's fair.
DUBKE: So, this is, again, why I call this a hostage negotiation. He got an American hostage back from Russia through that negotiations. But the "humanitarian" word never should have been used.
[06:20:07]
TRENT: No.
CORNISH: But I think what we're asking is what did we get out of it? Right? We got this person back.
DUBKE: Yes. CORNISH: That is good. But has it cost us in other ways? Right. Especially after we learned that news about Starlink and Elon Musk throttling information to Ukraine.
So, anyway, I want to turn to this. After the break on CNN, we're talking about Trump's foreign relations also causing tensions with one of his mega-donors. There's this tech titan who is breaking with Trump on the war in Iran.
Plus, J.D. Vance backs up Ohio Republican candidate Vivek Ramaswamy after a controversial attack ad, one that other Republicans say could actually backfire.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:25:02]
CORNISH: OK, let's talk about this red flag for Republicans when it comes to the midterms. One of Trump's most influential donors is actually breaking with the president over the war in Iran.
Now, Politico is reporting that it obtained audio of billionaire tech investor and Republican megadonor Peter Thiel. They quote him speaking at a private event earlier this month, saying, quote, "I'm skeptical of the war. I think we should not have done it. There were a lot of mistakes that were made."
President Trump, of course, sees it very differently.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I think it's one of the greatest things we've done. We've stopped Iran from having a nuclear weapon. It's one of the best things that we've done. It took a lot of courage to do it, because no other president was willing to do it. And if we didn't do it, Iran would right now have already used massive nuclear weapons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CORNISH: Group chat is back. Just a reminder, Peter Thiel helped found PayPal, early investor in Facebook. He currently has a stake in SpaceX, et cetera.
More importantly, he gave $15 million to a super PAC for J.D. Vance's Ohio Senate run. In a lot of ways I don't know if there's a J.D. Vance without Peter Thiel.
DUBKE: There isn't.
CORNISH: So, is this really like a person who like Vance isn't into this war. Speaking in a way that is kind of predictable. If you know J.D. Vance politics?
DUBKE: No, I think there's a number of Republicans that are feeling right now, if we weren't in Iran, we wouldn't have these billboards on every street corner across America with high gas prices, which is causing a lot of the angst at the kitchen table.
So, there's a number of Republicans who -- who I feel the same way that Peter Thiel feels. It just so happens, given his position and -- and backing of the vice president and others, he's got a -- you know, people are listening to what he says and, I guess, tape-recording private conversations.
(CROSSTALK)
CORNISH: Yes.
CHAMPION: I was above --
CORNISH: What's happening at these donor events?
DUBKE: I don't know.
TRENT: Well, he's also on the look for the antichrist. So, he probably has to have a lot of recordings going on. And he's famously not sure whether or not humanity should survive. So, Peter Thiel, I think --
CORNISH: He's in luck.
TRENT: He's got an interesting set of opinions.
DUBKE: He's got a good background.
TRENT: You know, the other people that thought maybe that we shouldn't be in this war was Tulsi Gabbard, the director of national intelligence. Right? So, I think a --
CHAMPION: I think a lot of people feel that.
TRENT: A lot of people.
CHAMPION: I just feel like, I just feel like people aren't saying it. And so that's arguably the news here. And they aren't saying it. They're not -- they're not saying it. Actually, they're being recorded privately, as we're seeing and hearing it being announced.
But everyone feels that way. No one is going to sit here and say this was a good idea, except for Donald Trump.
CORNISH: Yes.
TRENT: Because what are we getting out of it? What are we getting out of it?
CORNISH: And then it comes up over and over again when you're running for office. We talked about Kansas earlier. Here's Roger Marshall in a conversation with my colleague, Manu Raju, just on Sunday.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: On Iran, what about Iran? I'm asking. MARSHALL: No, I think you guys need to talk about something that
Kansans want to be talking about, right now.
RAJU: They don't want to talk about the Iran War? The Iran War?
MARSHALL: I've given you my comments on Iran before. Look, I want this war to be over as quickly as possible. I don't want to lose any soldiers, any more soldiers. Like Eisenhower, I hate war.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHAMPION: He hates war.
CORNISH: Good answer?
CHAMPION: Look, I -- yes, but he was very reluctant in the beginning. He gathered himself. It looked as if he gathered himself, because he did not want to discuss it. Because they don't like to break with Trump. I understand that's clearly what's happening here.
But nobody wants this war. And now they're realizing they have to --
TRENT: There's a lot of gathering.
CHAMPION: A lot of gathering.
TRENT: There's a lot of gathering.
DUBKE: There's a lot. And there's two things that have to happen for Republicans to get through the midterms in -- semi-intact. There's two things that have to happen.
You have to make this as much about local issues as you possibly can, and you have to get Donald Trump out on the campaign trail to motivate his base.
CHAMPION: I disagree with that.
DUBKE: No, no, let me. To motivate his base that generally only comes out on the -- on the -- every four years when he's on the ballot. We've seen it in '18, '22 and now in '26.
And to make both of those things happen is incredibly difficult. I'm not sure it's going to happen.
TRENT: To me, it's harder to --
(CROSSTALK)
CHAMPION: But -- but like local issues, I think --
DUBKE: Very hard to happen.
CHAMPION: I feel like local issues are now still directly related to world issues. I think the way in which we are moving, we can't separate that. I hear people talk about it all the time. People who could care less
about what's going on in another part of the world now do, because they're looking at the gas prices. They're seeing inflation, and they understand that two plus two does equal four.
DUBKE: You're totally --
CHAMPION: Because I'm good with math.
DUBKE: You are totally correct. That's what I'm saying.
CORNISH: Thank you. Welcome to the program.
TRENT: Yes, I like that. At least.
DUBKE: I didn't know we were going to be tested on math.
CORNISH: There's no test. There's no test.
Straight ahead, we're going to head to Texas, because there's some Bush family members who are not supporting the Republican, Ken Paxton. So, is that a red flag for the party?
And later on CNN, there is obviously frustration over A.I. data centers. But here's the thing. Ruby-red Kentucky is going through this. It has some Trump loyalists questioning their vote in the midterms.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[06:30:00]
