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Brexit Debate Enters Final Stretch; The Fight for Fallujah; World Refugee Population Reaches 65 Million; Remembering Jo Cox. Aired 11:00a- 12:00p ET

Aired June 20, 2016 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[11:00:40] DAVID CAMERON, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: For the future of our country, the best option for Britain is to vote to remain in a reformed

European Union. That really says something.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just think it's a bunch of upper middle-class rich people and multi-millionaires laughing at people whose voices have

never been heard for 40 years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More involved than any general election or any other election. Our

future as an open trading successful prosperous nation I believe is on the ballot paper.

BORIS JOHNSON, FRM. MAYOR OF LONDON: With a terrible sense of shock and disappointment the remain have narrowly won. Imagine that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECKY ANDERSON: Hello. I'm Becky Anderson. Welcome to a special edition of Connect the World with the British referendum on EU membership

just three days away. I'm here in London on Abbington Green right outside the British Parliament. And right now British lawmakers are in Saint

Margaret's Church for a memorial service for the murdered MP Jo Cox.

Inside parliament just a short time ago there was some emotional scenes. British Prime Minister David Cameron led the tributes to a truly

remarkable politician and person.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CAMERON: We express our anger at the sickening and despicable attack that killed her as she

did her job serving her constituents on the streets of Birstall. And let me join the leader of the opposition in his moving words in praising

Bernard Kenny (ph) and all those who tried to save her.

But above all in this house, we pay tribute to a loving, determined, passionate and progressive

politician, who epitomized the best of humanity and who proved so often the power of politics to make our world a better place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: British prime minister.

Well, following Jo Cox's murder, Britain paused the campaign over the Brexit referendum -- or the EU referendum. But that campaign has now

resumed.

Let's digest all of this with CNN's Max Foster.

And there is no escaping, Max, the sadness of Jo Cox's death. We just saw British politicians

paying tribute to her in parliament behind us. What effect does this all have on the debate?

MAX FOSTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting. I think Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the Labour Party, was speaking to it

when he said politicians have no a duty not to whip up hatred or sow division. We can come together to change our politics, to tolerate a

little bit more, and condemn a little less.

He's often spoken like that, but he's also speaking to the referendum, because people are inevitably thinking about her in reference to the

referendum. She stood so strongly for the remain campaign and we've learned so much about her. And she's become -- one analyst this morning

described her as a martyr to the remain campaign.

So, it's very sensitive. No one can be seen to be capitalizing on her death, of course, in a gruesome way, but, you know, people are suggesting

that. The leader of the UKIP was suggesting that today. He mentioned the prime minister today in reference to that.

ANDERSON: We've been talking a lot about tone. And when Jeremy Corbyn says we should tolerate a little more and condemn a little less, the

tone since Jo's murder was a lot more muted, the atmosphere a lot more muted, but we can see it beginning to ratchet up once again and asking

people to tolerate more and condemn a little less while those are perfectly,

perfectly sensible words this is politics and there are three days left until a referendum which is generational in the UK.

FOSTER: And people have staked their careers on it. And they're going to be fighting really hard in the days running up to Thursday. It's

going to be defined by people who haven't decided which way they're going to vote because that seems to be a large proportion of the voting population if you look at all of the polling. But you can't

really rely on the polling with such a high undecided count.

So it's going to be a hard-fought battle and careers will be made or broken as a result of it. Even David Cameron is pretty much putting his

career on it. Lots of people questioning, you know, can he stay in office if he doesn't get a resounding win.

So, it's going to get tough. And she will be in people's memories. So, inevitably it's getting caught up.

ANDERSON: OK. I'm going to have to stop you there, because I'm being told that we have got some other news. Let's go to that.

(ORLANDO SHOOTING PRESS CONFERENCE)

[11:24:55] ANDERSON: Right. You're watching CNN. And officials from the FBI and the Orlando police discussing what they have just released,

which is a limited timeline of the 911 calls made by the shooter at the Pulse night club a week or so ago.

You're watching CNN. I'm Becky Anderson. We're going to take a very short break. Back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:27:45] ANDERSON: Right, a very warm welcome back to Abbington Green here just outside the British Parliament. And the British referendum

on EU membership just three days away. and the mood on the ground has been one of sober reflection over the past couple hours, and since the

killing of the MP Jo Cox.

Let's get a wider perspective in all of this. Alistair Campbell was the head of communications for the former Prime Minister Tony Blair. He's

also a prominent remain campaigner. And he joins me to discuss what's been going on. And as we speak, members of the upper and lower chamber are in

service reflecting on Jo Cox's life, and that's just minutes away from here.

Meantime today, we've been talking about the tone. The tone certainly more muted over the weekend when campaigning was suspended. But now, your

sentence.

ALISTAIR CAMPBELL, FRM. DIR. OF COMMUNICATIONS LABOUR PARTY: Well, I mean it's an incredibly important decision. And on both sides, people feel

very, very strongly. And both sides know that in the middle there are literally millions of people who are yet to decide and are finding out a

lot of them actually very difficult to decide.

So, I think the passions will there. And I think they should be there. I think it's obviously right, the all be there and should be there.

I think it's right that the campaigning was suspended for a day or two in the aftermath of the horrible assassination of Jo Cox.

But now I think that the -- just a very, very short time to go to Thursday, these arguments have got to be out there the whole time, because

there are so many people yet to decide.

ANDERSON: This has polarized the country. That would be an understatement wouldn't it?

CAMPBELL: Well, it has. I mean I think it was becoming a very, very nasty campaign. Now I know I'm biased and I admit that, but I do think a

lot of it was driven by what I think are some pretty big lies that were being told by the other side. The fact that this lie on Boris Johnson's

bus that we spend -- we give 350 million pounds a week to the European Union not true, the Turks, there are millions of Turks about to move in not

true.

And also there's going to be a European army any time soon not true.

And also I think people -- one of the reasons why people have found the whole thing so confusing is that -- I mean, here we are at Parliament,

our system of government is the other government. And the ministers all kind of sing from the same hymn sheet of what David Cameron unleashed with

this referendum was actually you could campaign within the party.

And I think people have been shocked, to be honest, just how vicious that has become, particularly between Cameron and Osbourne, the chancellor

and Michael Gove who is David Cameron's best friend, we're told, and Boris Johnson. So, I think that has been difficult for people.

But I think what -- within the next few days the big, big arguments are -- you know, here we are

talking to the television. I'm not saying that's important. But I'll tell you where the arguments of matter

are going on, they're going on in people's kitchens and people's living rooms. They're going on in factories and offices. And people are making

up their minds in their own way.

ANDERSON: Alistair, you ran very successful campaigns. If you had been running this

campaign yourself what would you have done differently?

CAMPBELL: Well, if I'm being absolutely frank, I'm not sure I would have had this, because I think we let our principle leaders to make really

big, difficult decisions and we're only really having this referendum in my view because of some pretty relentless campaigning by Nigel Farage and

others, by...

ANDERSON: Was it necessary, by the way?

CAMPBELL: Oh, I don't think so. No, I don't think he had to call this at all. I think he did it.

ANDERSON: Is he regretting it?

CAMPBELL: I hope so.

But the point is, we've only got a few days left and that's then and this is now.

The point about referendums is you often call them in one set of circumstances and have them in another. But the reality is that I think --

you know we were talking off air about Britain's relationship with the European Union. We've had decades of systematic day after day newspaper --

most of our newspapers hate Europe. And so we don't really have a balanced debate in this country.

But I think what's happening now is that these millions of undecided people are just -- they will drill down on the arguments. And I think the

big argument that I think is coming out of the remain side now is about economic risk. Can you really, unless you're absolutely sure -- and from

Boris Johnson's campaign, I haven't seen any answers to these questions about what the trade arrangements are going to be, where the borders are

going to be, how are we going to get this sort of -- all this wonderful economy he says you can build outside of the European Union.

ANDERSON: What happens on Friday effectively.

CAMPBELL: Well, they haven't answered that.

ANDERSON: Let's hear from Boris Johnson. You may not enjoy the comparison, but Johnson is arguably your counterpart in the leave campaign.

CAMPBELL: No. He's the leader of it. David Cameron is his counterpart.

ANDERSON: Let's listen to what he said about, as he put it, taking back control of the country's destiny.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNSON: I'm not only pro-immigration, I'm pro-immigrant. And I am in favor an amnesty for illegal immigrants who have been here for more than

12 years, unable to contribute, unable to contribute this economy, unable to pay taxes, unable to take part in society. And I'll tell you why

because it is the humane thing do, it is the economically rational thing to do and it means taking back control of a system that is at the moment

completely out of control.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: Taking back control of a system that is completely out of control, he says. That's what this is all about.

CAMPBELL: That's what they want it to be about. And listen, you came from in from Abu Dhabi the other day, did you have to show a passport at

the border? Right, you know, if I come up the Channel tunnel do I just walk in? No. We have control. The question is, can we have a system

people that people respect that is fair. And I don't deny there are parts of the country where the people feel

pressure on public services, but that's about a lot of domestic policy decisions taken by a Torry government that's been pursuing a program of

austerity.

And what the leave campaign, what Boris Johnson is trying do there is essentially to say any

problem, any problem we have in this country is because we're in the European Union. It's a complete nonsense. And they talk about taking

control of the borders, the border at France, the British border at the moment is in France, because we have these arrangements with the French

that they manage our border there.

Once we come out of the European Union it will move to Kent. The border in Ireland -- there's a border between the north of Ireland and the

Republic of Ireland. Now, we're both in the European Union at the moment. Once we're out of the European Union, if that happens, what happens to

that border?

ANDERSON: Paul Krugman writing in either -- a very well respected economist, writing.

CAMPBELL: ...economists, they're experts. They don't know what they're talking about. They're all idiots. Michael Gove said so.

ANDERSON: Of course he did.

Writing in The New York Times this weekend he said this is a choice for the British electorate between bad and worse, suggesting not that

Europe and the European project is an abject failure but certainly suggesting it's not an out and out success. Is that the problem here?

CAMPBELL: Well look, I think if you're looking at what the European Union was created for, it's emerged from one of the bloodiest, most awful

wars in history and I think it's very hard to imagine the circumstances in which France, Germany, Britain, Italy, Spain, all

these other countries going to war at the moment, that's been the big success.

Likewise, the single market, the biggest single internal market in the world, where we can trade

freely with this market of half a billion people, 500 million people, and that -- that's emerged from the European Union.

ANDERSON: You can still trade with them going forward, though...

CAMPBELL: You could, but you know -- it would not be a single market because if we come out, if we come out, we are going to have to renegotiate

trade arrangements with every single country, because at the moment most of our trade arrangements are done via the European Union. And I just think

we're -- unless you're absolutely convinced -- this is what I say to people who are undecided, unless you're absolutely convinced this is going to lead

to you being better, to Britain being stronger, to being safer in the fight against terrorism and climate change, whatever it might be, then it's just

a risk not worth taking. It's too big a risk.

ANDERSON: Mr. Campbell competing with the engineers putting up another broadcast.

CAMPBELL: The BBC. They're so much bigger than CNN in this country.

ANDERSON: Moving on.

Thank you, sir.

Alistair Campbell for you today.

Voters are, of course, being asked in or out of the European Union. Right now, opinion polls are

simply too close to call on what will happen, especially when you consider the number of undecided voters as Alistair pointed out.

And let's not forget, British pollsters have been wrong in the past a number of times. Most did not foresee a resounding conservative win in

last year's general election here in the UK.

Well, let's bring in Freddie Sayers, the editor-in-chief of Polling agency YouGov. He joins us now to help break down the polls.

Let's get you the latest poll, it has remain with a tiny lead over leave. If we're to buy into anything you say, walk us through why?

FREDDIE SAYERS, YOUGOV: Well, what we've seen in our numbers is everything very, very

close to most of the campaign. And then in the -- for the first part of this month we started seeing a leading up in the leave direction. And this

peaked around about Monday or Tuesday of last week. So before the tragic event of Jo Cox's murder where we recorded around a 7 point lead for the

leave campaign. And ever since then, it's been gradually retracting. And so the number reported in yesterday's Sunday Times was now a 1 percent lead

for remain.

So, it seems to have pulled back slightly from that brink.

ANDERSON: British voters have heard all this before and after the general election. They got a very different outcome. How can we trust

polls in general this time around given that so much of this is unprecedented?

SAYERS: Well, you're right that it's -- you know, we should treat all numbers with a good degree of care. I mean, we've put a huge amount of

effort to correct those things that did go wrong in the last general election. And we accurately have subsequently called Jeremy Corbyn's

victory, the London mayor and the local elections in Scotland and Wales. So we're pleased with the work we've done. And we think we are calling

this correctly.

But, you know, even in the next three days, what could happen is dramatic. We saw, for example, in the Scottish referendum in 2014, you

know, everything was got very, very close. At one point the yes campaign seemed to pull into the lead and then in those final two weeks, again, it

pulled back from the edge in the final result was 55-45.

So to what extent that same degree of kind of rush to safety in the final moments will take

place here is hard to tell.

ANDERSON: After the murder of the British MP Jo Cox, which has just been memorial to her being celebrated in the church just away from me here.

The atmosphere in this debate has been a lot more muted, but it's still tense. It's not the first time, is it, that a tragedy like this has

happened in Europe?

It's similar to the murder of the Swedish foreign minister, Anna Lindh, back in 2003. She was stabbed to death in the days before Swede's

voted to have the euro as their currency.

Briefly can you detect how these kind of horrible incidents affect voters? What's the impact?

SAYERS: Well, it is hard to say, you know, what I can say is that Nigel Farage was on the

television yesterday saying that -- and I think I quote the momentum was with us until this terrible tragedy took place. And that's definitely not

what we see. So, we haven't recorded a sharp movement in the polls since that terrible event. The movement we have seen started a good few days

previously. But no doubt it affects the whole tone of the campaign, you know, and with it certainly some vote voters may change their minds and

we'll be paying a very close eye in the days to come to see which direction that goes.

[11:40:13] ANDERSON: And with that, we'll leave it there. We thank you very much indeed for joining us. Three days to go, of course, until

the UK votes in this referendum.

Let me just pause for a moment and bring you other news we've been following for you this hour, viewers.

And the United Nations says 84,000 people have fled Fallujah since the Iraqi offensive to retake the city from ISIS began last month. They are

in urgent need of housing. The UN expects another large exodus as more families escape.

Iraqi forces have managed to reach Fallujah's city center. The pockets of resistance do remain. Ben Wedeman is in the Iraqi capital

Baghdad. Ben, you've been back and forth between Fallujah and Baghdad now for weeks. Just how much of Fallujah has been liberated at this point?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: At this point, Becky, it

seems around somewhere between 60 and 70 percent Iraqi forces have isolated ISIS and sort abandoned the northern part of the city. They've also taken

some of the neighborhoods at the very tips. So ISIS is really caught between this slowly advancing vice from the Iraqi

forces.

Iraqi officials say it's really just a matter of time before they completely get control of the city, but as that battle rage there's

mounting concern about the condition of civilians fleeing the city and also those still stuck in it. In the last three days, Becky, 30,000 civilians

have fled the city itself and they're overwhelming the camps that have been set up around Fallujah to receive

them.

We understand in some camps there's as many as three families per tent. In one camp, according to the Norwegian Refugee Council, with 1,800

people there's only one latrine for women.

Now, the Iraqi government put out a statement over the weekend from Haider al-Abadi, the prime minister, saying they are mobilizing more

resources to deal with this flood of people coming out of the city. One of their concerns is of course that during the time when ISIS was in control

of Fallujah, there were no vaccination campaigns. Now Iraqi officials are worried about the outbreak of cholera and typhoid -- Becky.

ANDERSON: Ben Wedeman, reporting. Thank you.

Well, It's been more than two years since Malaysia Airlines flight 370 disappeared. Several countries have been searching for the plane, but one

man seems to be finding a significant share of the clues.

Debris hunter Blain Gibson says what you see here may be personal items and pieces from the plane. He found them on a beach in Madagascar.

Now, authorities says debris Gibson found earlier this month is almost certainly from

MH-370. Well, let's bring in an aviation expert, David Gleave. He's with us from Dubai and a regular guest on the show.

David, what is the likelihood these are, in fact, personal items from the passengers on the

doomed MH370 flight?

DAVID GLEAVE, AVIATION EXPERT: It's quite possible that they are parts from the flight itself. We've certainly seen some parts which are

indisputably from the flight floating. It's then a question as to whether they've come from any cargo containers that have fallen off ships and

things like that. I know that they're trying to get them identified by relatives, and things like that. But it's quite possible. And indeed, it

may actually tell us something about how the aircraft crashed as well.

ANDERSON: It does seem remarkable that this is a sort of individual who, because he's so bent on this quest, seems to be recovering things that

search teams and sort of the wide ranging investigation hasn't been able to locate itself.

If this is confirmed, will it help these search teams pinpoint the location of the major parts

of the wreckage do you think?

GLEAVE: I think the problem is they've drifted so many months now that trying to model the ocean currents, the tides and the wind, all it

does is to confirm that aircraft did crash in the Southern Indian Ocean. I think that it won't tie down anything.

We know where the aircraft was at about 30,000 feet on its final decent. Realistically, there's a search radius of 100 nautical miles from

that point that it could have gone to. But if nobody was interfering with the controls of the aircraft as it came down, then it

should be found within the search pattern that they're looking.

[11:45:00] ANDERSON: How much of the plane do investigators need to find before they can start building a more complete picture of what

actually happened to it, David?

GLEAVE: Well, the primary thing is to establish why the aircraft deviated off course. Trying to understand what possible mechanical or

electrical failures could have occurred to lead the aircraft to a very strange flight path that we've never seen before, otherwise we come to the

conclusion that there's some level of human interference with the aircraft for whatever personal or political reason.

We'd obviously like to recover the whole aircraft so that we can assist the relatives in closing the breathing process, but it would be very

useful if we could retrieve the flight recorders, but what we obviously have is parts of the aircraft. It tells us a little bit about how the

aircraft carashed into the ocean, but it doesn't really narrow anything down enough, because of the difficulties with oceanic modeling in an area

of the world that's not really crossed very often by ships.

ANDERSON: Fascinating. All right, well we thank you for that. Our guest out of Dubai today.

Live from London tonight, this is Connect the World. I'm Becky Anderson.

Coming up, the United Nations marks World Refugee Day with sobering numbers, I have to say, on the crisis. My interview with the UN's high

commissioner for refugees is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: Welcome back. This is a special edition of Connect the World from London just outside the houses of parliament here. In just

three days, the UK votes on whether to leave or stay in the European Union. The topic of immigration central to this debate.

Right now around the world, 24 people are displaced every minute, that is 24 people displaced

every minute. They are ending up in places like these -- refugee camps across the Middle East and Europe.

Well, it's World Refugee Day today and we wanted to look at the full stretch of this crisis. In Fallujah, thousands of people are being forced

out of their homes and a humanitarian crisis looms even as ISIS they are ending up in places like these, refugee camps across the Middle East and

Europe. It's world refugee day today and we wanted to look at the full stretch of this crisis.

In Fallujah, thousands of people are being forced out of their homes and a humanitarian crisis looms even as ISIS is being driven out of the

city.

The Syrian civil war is now ino its sixth year and people continue to flee in hopes of a better

future. The United Nations says the number of displaced people around the world topped 65 million, more than ever before.

Well the UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon traveled to Greece for a firsthand look at the

refugee crisis. He met with migrants and refugees in Lesbos on Saturday. The UN chief is urging

European countries to take in more of the millions fleeing from violence.

Well, earlier I spoke to the United Nations high commissioner for refugees. I began by asking

him about the daily challenges his organization faces.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FLIPPO GRANDI, UN HIGH COMMISSIONER FOR REFUGEES: The staggering figure of 65 million represents a 10 percent increase over 59 million of

last year, which already was a 10 percent increase from the previous year.

And the other staggering element of all this, you mentioned the crisis in Europe is that, in fact, 90 percent of those 65 million are in poorer or

middle income countries. So, the well-to-to do, the rich countries only bear the responsibility for 10 percent of that enormous numbers.

And increasingly these people face dangers in the way they move.

ANDERSON: And your organization has warned that European and other rich nations can expect this tide to continue unless the root causes are

addressed. What do you mean by that? And how can we affect numbers next year, which don't reflect anything like those of this year, which are

record highs?

GRANDI: You're absolutely right, addressing root causes is the key. This is why I decided to spend World Refugee Day here in Kabul. The Afghan

refugees are among the largest groups in this big displacement phenomenon. But unless we address the root causes here,

unless we address the problems of security and of development draws the problems of -- address the problems of security and

development we won't stop the flows.

Today, Afghans are the second largest group of refugees and migrants arriving in Europe. And I

think they carry a message that if we don't make peace, if we don't help Afghanistan find peace and if we don't give Afghanistan the resources to

develop properly, that flow will continue. And it will not just stop in the neighboring countries, it will go further away. It will reach the

shores of Europe and of the rich world.

ANDERSON: But the problem is this, isn't it, this has been a conflict 15 years in the making. The conflict in Syria now five years in the

making. and nobody is doing anything about it?

GRANDI: I hope that the arrivals of refugees in Europe last year and this year, tragic as that movement has been, has finally carried the

message home and has told the world, has finally made clear to all of us that we need to be more robust in our peace making mechanisms, in our peace

making process and we have to be much more decisive in building the peace after it is arrived at.

I was here in Afghanistan 15 years ago. I helped, together with many others, more than 3 million Afghans come back to Afghanistan. How come now

they're going away again? What have we done? What have we achieved in the 15 years?

We need to be continually investing in peace building. It is one of the keys of our future world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANDERSON: That was the head of the refugee agency and just to bring this right back to the UK, a million people making it to the shores of

Europe very much informing what is going on here in the debates around whether the UK will, indeed, stay within the European Union or not. And

that is a vote that will be taken here in the election, the referendum on Thursday. And we'll be here for you all week to cover that story, and it's

impact is huge.

Live from London, you're watching Connect the World with me Becky Anderson tonight.

Coming up, united in grief -- more on today's tributes to the murdered British lawmaker Jo

Cox. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:51:25] ANDERSON: All right. Welcome back.

I'm here in London outside the British parliament, the houses of parliament. Today, we heard moving tributes to the murdered MP Jo Cox.

For our Parting Shots tonight, perhaps the most striking image that we've seen today, an empty seat where Jo Cox sat in the House of Commons, single

red and white roses mark her place.

British Prime Minister David Cameron described the mother of two as, quote, an extraordinary

colleague and friend.

And as lawmakers from across the political aisle stood to pay tribute, many echoed these words from Jo's maiden speech. We have far more in

common with each other than things that divide us.

And finally there's this bird's-eye view from Hyde Park in central London, remain supporters gathered to create a giant "In sign. Official

campaigning resumed on Sunday after a three day pause in the wake of Jo Cox's murder.

She was, of course, a vocal advocate of Britain remaining in the European Union.

I'm Becky Anderson. You've been watching Connect the World. I am going to be right here in London for you all week as we follow what is this

gripping political tale for you. But for this evening, thank you for watching. From the team working with us here, it's a very good evening.

CNN, though, of course, continues after this short break. So, don't go away.

END