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Dubai Host Seventh Annual Government Summit; Tehran Celebrates 40 Years Since Islamic Revolution; U.S. Backed Forces Attack Last Syrian Town In ISS Control; How Artificial Intelligence Is Shaping Global Policy; UAE Aims To Use A.I. To Tackle Global Challenges; U.K Telecoms CEO: Seen No "Cause For Concern" Over Huawei. Aired 10-11a ET
Aired February 10, 2019 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:00:00] BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: The billowing sail of the Burj Al Arab bringing to mind the trade winds that once filled both
sails taking spices, weapons, and people on voyages across the world of what now seems a snail's pace. Well, today everything zips along at light
speed, wars on laptops, diplomacy through technology. And that is why we are here live the World Government Summit in Dubai to take you to the
movers and shakers figuring out how to build a better future, our future.
I'm Becky Anderson and this is of course "CONNECT THE WORLD." Well, a high-tech higher stakes and big questions. That's what it's all about here
in Dubai where 4,000 politicians experts and thought leaders from 150 countries have gathered to accomplish one thing, to "set the agenda for the
next generation of government." And if the conversation is anything to go by that, next generation is very high-tech, expect artificial intelligence,
pipe loops and robots. The stakes are even higher, climate change, global inequality, and the mental health of us, the citizens.
And there is one very big question, can government keep up? Well, CNN's Richard Quest and John Defterios joining me with the big themes. And that
is a really good question. When you come to an event like this, Richard, and you've been speaking to example -- for example to Christine Lagarde
today from the IMF. This is all about what governments can do for us next. How can they keep up?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: And the interesting thing about this particular summit is I would say this year it's come of age. This
year that I've had a real feeling that the right people are here for the right reasons discussing the right issues. I passed an A.I. forum and it
was just fascinating. Seven or eight different little booths going on at the same time packed with people.
And he message is simple -- and it was a similar one from Davos, by the way, as you would remember from there. A.I. and the fourth Industrial
Revolution is now here. Government has to deal with it. And then -- what I'm hearing here is it's the methods and the ways in which they do it.
ANDERSON: Technology innovation, those are the sort of buzzwords here. The politicians are here. They are talking about these new digital
economies and how we will be shaped by governments as it were going forward. There are those some traditional conversations going on not least
those about Brexit, about trade wars. What have you heard?
JOHN DEFTERIOS, CNN BUSINESS EMERGING MARKETS EDITOR: Well, that's the dichotomy here. They're looking to the future. That's what it's supposed
to be doing this world government summit, to hear from the brain trust the Foreign Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed Al Nahyan right now is on the
stage looking at the geopolitical mapping. One of the key geopolitical issues clearly is Brexit today, not by accident. The international trade
secretary for the U.K. Liam Fox was here. This is a trading nation.
It was -- in fact you're talking about the Silk Road, and the spice route, and the spices that were traded from here, he wants to come and say we're
not insulated because of Brexit. We're going to be more global afterwards. That's not an easy sale but he has to basically make that pitch at the
crossroads of east and west here in the UAE.
Now, his arguments there was just interesting after a lot of heat. He's suggesting back to you that Europe is going to need to be more flexible.
The U.K. is a $2.5 trillion economy. Germany is slowing down, China is slowing down and it's not about politics but about the economic future of
Europe and that flexibility. Let's take a listen to Liam first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIAM FOX, INTERNATIONAL TRADE SECRETARY, UNITED KINGDOM: I think the whole question of Brexit is always really been about is this a political
separation? Are the priorities to the -- for the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and the purity of the European project or is it about prosperity,
jobs, and trade? And I think that the pendulum has tilted towards the latter in the last few months as the effect of the Chinese slowdown has
brought a recognition that Europe, the European economy on both sides of the channel I can't take unwarranted disruption.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DEFTERIOS: So unwarranted obstruction here to trade. That's Liam Fox's position. By the way, this is the government summit where they hone in on
their future trading partners. But eight years ago before the WGS was founded, it was China, last year you know was India bringing a trading
partners of $70 billion $100 billion for the UAE. And now their focus is on the Horn of Africa, focusing on the very fast growth of Ethiopian.
And I think Liam Fox wanted to come and say we want to be part of it. we're going to form new trade agreements but a horrible week in last two
weeks in fact at the U.K. You had Dyson moving its headquarters to Singapore with that announcement. UBS moving funds from London as the
Swiss Bank to Germany. Nissan is saying it wasn't going to proceed with a diesel project here.
He was trying to shrug all those things off and I think almost trying to bury his head in the sand and saying we will be open. We will be open, but
the hard deadlines coming.
[10:05:33] ANDERSON: Yes. We had this at Davos as well didn't we? The signs were up. Britain is open for business.
DEFTERIOS: That was extraordinary. He put an advertising on the hotel.
QUEST: Great Britain on the Belvidere of all places. Yes. Free trade, Christine Lagarde, I was -- I was talking to about A.I., what it's going to
mean fourth industrial and all that. And I said you know, jobs that will be lost. And she immediately slapped me down and she says, no, Richard you
mean jobs that will be adjusted. And what she's worried about interesting, fascinating, is she says that women will be most affected or at least stand
to be more effective because those jobs that women do currently in the workforce because of the discrimination and precious. They are the ones
that will go.
ANDERSON: So what's the upside?
QUEST: The upside is that if we get it right. It's an increase of wealth for the whole world. The upside is you know, people having more and more
interesting exciting, more and lives, meaningful lives is the relevant for. The downside doesn't bear thinking about you know, none of us so for,
obviously, we're around for the first industrial revolution. Well, maybe. But you know, if you look at -- think of Spinning Jennies and thereafter,
and this is -- this will be bigger.
DEFTERIOS: What's extraordinary here, I think and you know this because we live here, they're embracing their futures so they're using the summit
every year in advancing. We've gone into the -- to the museum here of the future. They're advancing the thought process and the technology 75 years
out. It's extraordinary.
ANDERSON: A.I. --
DEFTERIOS: And people do embrace it because it's --
ANDERSON: And A.I. embedded across every --
QUEST: They've got -- they've got the right people here. Never mind the top liners or the headliners that you might see somewhere else, they've got
a few of them. But they've got the experts from MIT, they've got the science labs, they've got Silicon Valley. They've actually got the people
that understand.
ANDERSON: And what I thought was really interesting, I'm about to show of our viewers an interview that I conducted earlier with the Estonian class.
So this is a small country of 1.6 million but a country that is something like third or fourth rated when it comes to encouraging a new tech in word
generation, looking for research and development money in the world of innovation.
And one expert suggesting recently is countries like Estonia that are stealing and march on nonetheless than the U.S. when it comes to tech
advances.
DEFTERIOS: Well, Estonia and Latvia, you know, these -- they were the ones that embraced E-government. And in fact the bottle that we see today, we
go through the airports for example, you can use your identity card that we live here with without the password and sliders through the E-gate or E-
government services online, the inspiration came from Estonia. That's why you see the prime minister of Estonia --
QUEST: (INAUDIBLE) cabinet meetings. They all turn up to cabinet -- they all turn up to cabinet where --
ANDERSON: We hope so.
QUEST: Just like you, Becky --
ANDERSON: We got (INAUDIBLE) working on the old paper. It makes me feel confident and comfortable in my job. Thank you guys.
QUEST: Thank you.
ANDERSON: The two mega minds on CNN. They break the news and break it all down for you. Let's zip to the border then between Russia and the European
Union. That is where of course what we've just been talking about, Estonia lies, Europe's digital leader or should that be Estonia. It's a small
place but it's a big presence here at the summit in Dubai.
It's been building its tech creds in a big way. It is as we have suggested an E-state where 99, it this 99 percent of public services are now
available online and around the clock but can it take, provide stability in a continent shaken by Brexit? Estonia's Prime Minister Juri Ratas join me
earlier and I began by asking about the future of the relationship between the U.K. and the E.U. This is fascinating. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JURI RATAS, PRIME MINISTER, ESTONIA: I think the Brexit for the broad sides are very negative. What is today is important. I think of course we
must understand that 52 percent is the people from Britain -- from United Kingdom they said that they would like to see that U.K. is out of E.U.
ANDERSON: Truth.
RATAS: OK. But actually we need after the 29th of March, we need very strategic and I would like to say very close relations between 27 and U.K.
That's true that we booked our proposal on the day of 25th of November last year and I couldn't see today any this kind of movement that we are opening
this agreement project.
[10:10:13] ANDERSON: So you see a no deal Brexit at this point do and you are concerned about that?
RATAS: I see that 27 countries and I also see the Prime Minister May were both are working to have a deal.
ANDERSON: Is she being a stubborn woman?
RATAS: I think that the no deal isn't the best for both sides. I really hope and I really believe today that we could find the deal. And it is
important to both sides and I see every council meeting that all these 27 countries but also Prime Minister May, we are we are working to achieve
this goal, to find this opportunity.
ANDERSON: Tell me, behind the scenes, are European leaders still hoping for a second referendum?
RATAS: I think some leaders or maybe majority of our my colleagues, we are hoping that this tour is little bit still open that we could see that
European Union is going forward with 28 countries. Maybe it's today more fairytale than this kind of true life but let's see. How to say -- it
isn't today our question, I mean, 27 country's question.
ANDERSON: There are many Estonians in the U.K. what are your biggest concerns about a no deal post March the 29th for your own citizens?
RATAS: In United Kingdom, we have about 10,000 or 15,000 Estonians. The most important things are the citizen's rights and also the rights of the
business. I think that is the most important. Also for this very important for Estonia is to keep these very strategic relations between
U.K. and Estonia if we are talking to security and defense. and what is actually very good at under the NATO umbrella we are -- we are still
together this 29 countries.
ANDERSON: Let's talk about NATO very briefly. You've said that you want better relations with Russia. Do you still now even after election
meddling in the U.S. and in the Ukraine -- I know that there are U.K. troops for example as part of the NATO mission in your country. How
concerned are you?
RATAS: The first thing where we all need the answers is Minsk agreements. Is what -- is the situation what the Russian Federation is doing today in
Ukraine, the eastern part, in Crimea. We must just see some positive steps. Of course I think all E.U. countries, we understand that we need the
dialogue, but dialogue is I think possible. After that we could see the positive solutions or good solution under the Minsk agreement.
ANDERSON: So you want to see better relations with Russia is what you're telling me.
RATAS: Like I said, the first that must be -- it's about -- fort the Baltic States and for Estonia, it is so important. If we are talking to
independence, if we are talking to freedom, if we are talking to territorial integrity and sovereignty, and of course we are supporting
Ukraine 101 percent about that, and after that we could talk and other issues as well, but the first is Minsk agreement.
ANDERSON: You have this E-residency idea for example. You had to though suspend that program I know after a major security flaw one that you kept
under wraps for a while. Does it concern you that we live in a world of big data that can be so easily manipulated?
RATAS: Like I said -- actually we need this kind of free movement of data. If we -- if we need a better medicine, better than airfield, better
education, better security, but at the same time maybe a little bit in front we need all different things what are under the security, these are
the data security and all the cyber security. We had very strong cyber- attacks during springtime 2007. Of course, now we are much preparations. We are much better know how and also --
ANDERSON: And many people are involved in hacking around the world.
RATAS: -- not hacking, also more people are doing to cooperation in the world and also entirely know how the need to cyber-security center as well.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: The Prime Minister of Estonia there. A very human guess you probably notice, and that is actually kind of important because soon up
next, we will meet Anymals and take a look at this. I promise you, it won't bite. He's beside you. Look how he looks at the world literally
like this. Thermal vision guys, thermal vision. Super cool. He is dancing for us at the moment which he reminds me of somebody else. Look at
that.
[10:15:13] QUEST: I don't know what you're suggesting.
ANDERSON: What's really important is that this is a government summer as we've been discussing but it's -- but it's Anymals like this that companies
will be showing off an event like this because this is about the future, John.
DEFTERIOS: Yes. What he doing? What's his capabilities is what I want to find out.
ANDERSON: We're going to find next.
DEFTERIOS: Yes. It's good to see.
QUEST: This is extraordinary.
ANDERSON: You're frightened.
QUEST: No. It's just I've seen robots but they're all sort of talking about -- but this is actually starting to get the dexterity and the
maneuverability and I'm -- hello!
ANDERSON: It waved for you.
QUEST: It did. Not the first one.
ANDERSON: We're going to take a very short break viewers. Up next that and some other world news. As Iran gears up to celebrate the anniversary
of its Islamic Revolution, we are live in Tehran to take the temperature.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: Well, we are connecting your world from here at the World Government Summit in Dubai and why these -- while sometimes these get-
togethers like Davos where I was recently, you can feel like they're in a bubble of isolation. That is far from the case of course. That's why we
are connecting the world so much in flux around the world. Case in point of such changes is a time for celebration.
In Iran it seems as the country marks the 40th anniversary of the Islamic Revolution. That is when the government of the U.S.-backed Shah was
overthrown and the Ayatollah Khomeini was -- had just returned from exile became head of the new Islamic Republic. But the anniversary comes amid
skyrocketing tensions with the U.S. now. Some fear war between the two adversaries could be on the horizon.
Well, CNN's Fred Pleitgen joining us from the Iranian capital. And is this an anniversary being celebrated across Iran, Fred?
FRED PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly is among the folks in the government, Becky, and there certainly are going
to be big celebrations on this date tomorrow. And if you look at Iran today you can really see how important this date is for so many Iranians,
not just the ones here because it changed the trajectory of so many lives here in Iran, but then of course also to the many Iranians who are forced
to flee abroad after the Islamic Revolution.
And if we look at Iran today, Becky, you can see that Iran is politically and militarily probably more powerful than it ever has been since the
beginning of the Islamic Revolution in this region, but at the same time economically it certainly is struggling especially under sanctions coming
from the United States. Let's have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
[10:20:41] PLEITGEN: The return from exile of Ayatollah Khomeini in February 1979 and the overthrow of the U.S.-backed Shah marked the
culmination of the Islamic Revolution. Businessman Abdullah Hassan Chafee says he organized opposition groups in those days. 40 years later, he
believes the revolution produced mixed results.
Religiously and ideologically the revolution achieved its goals, he says, but economically due to sanctions and domestic mismanagement, we've not yet
reached those goals.
The Islamic Revolution also an uprising against America's support for the Shah. In late 1979, Iranian students stormed the U.S. Embassy in Tehran
capturing and holding hostage more than 50 Americans from within 400 days. U.S.-Iranian relations have never recovered. Hardliners still chanting
death to America at Friday prayers even though Iran's supreme leader recently tried to tone down the rhetoric.
Let me make something clear for U.S. leaders, he said. Death to America means death to Trump, John Bolton and Pompeo. It means death to American
rulers. We have no problems with the American people. The Trump White House is cracking down on Iran pulling the U.S. out of the nuclear deal
signed by the Obama administration and hitting the country with sanctions that are crippling its economy and causing its currency to plummet.
The U.S. says Iran is a threat to Israel and America's allies in the Middle East, and lashed out at Iran's ballistic missile program. Iran's answer, a
defense Expo praising the rockets.
Iran shows no signs of bowing to American and international pressure. The country says it will continue to develop its ballistic missile program
which it says is solely for defense purposes. For the first time Iran recently released video of one of its underground missile assembly
facilities. 40 years after the beginning of the Islamic Revolution the confrontation between the U.S. and Iran continues.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PLEITGEN: And those I would say, Becky, are the two main questions on the minds of many Iranians, not just the ones who are living in this country
but also of course many around the world as well. On the one hand is what is going to happen with this conflict that they have with the United
States. Could things get even worse especially right now with a Trump White House clamping down on Tehran.
And then the biggest question probably right now for folks here in this country is how are they going to deal with this dire economic situation.
Of course we'll recall, the ones who've been here so many times since the nuclear agreement was signed in the nuclear agreement was discarded by the
United States, there was a lot of hope. All that hope now at this point is gone and many Iranians are asking how this country can get out of that dire
economic situation especially of course with the U.S. again applying that pressure. Becky?
ANDERSON: Sure. And Fred, when you speak to people on the streets of Tehran who may or may not have read the headlines that go in The Washington
Post today Trump is moving as closer to war with Iran. Whether they've read those headlines or not on this the anniversary of the revolution, what
is their sense about what the U.S. might do next?
PLEITGEN: Well, I think there's a lot of people who do fear that the confrontation especially between this Trump White House and then of course
also, for instance, with national security adviser John Bolton also very much clamping down on Iran as well, is that there could be a bigger
confrontation that might be looming especially if you look at right now towards the Iranian role in places like Syria.
Of course, where you have for instance, the Israelis bombarding Iranian positions. I think there are some who fear that something like this could
spiral if cooler heads don't prevail. I think at this point in time that's not something that Tehran necessarily wants but of course there is always
the potential for miscalculation.
But I think that if you speak to many people here in Iran, the big thing on their minds right now is this economic isolation, the economic problems,
and how this country is going to get out of that. And right now, very difficult for people to find any sort of hope that things could change.
There was of course that hope after the nuclear agreement went into place that foreign investment could come to this country, that there could be a
jobs free in this country as well.
Right now there are a lot of Iranians who are very, very concerned about their own economic situation, how this government could possibly get them
out of it and generally how the country could get out of it as well, Becky.
[10:25:13] ANDERSON: Sure, if 6:54 p.m. in Tehran in Iran. It is cracking on towards half-past seven here in the UAE. And let's stick in the region,
head to somewhere Iran is closely linked to nearby Syria. ISIS militants fighting to hold the last area under their control. U.S.-backed forces
launched a major operation on Saturday at a small town near the border with Iraq.
Now, at its peak, ISIS controlled large swaths of Iraq and Syria. Now the militant group has been pushed back. It only controls a few square
kilometers near the Euphrates River. Ben Wedeman joining us now near the frontlines in eastern Syria, an extremely dangerous place. The talk is
that the ISIS Caliphate is no more despite there being cells still active. You've been in region now on the ground for some days if not weeks, what do
you understand to be the real story?
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the real story is, Becky, that the ISIS holds a very tiny area in this town behind me,
perhaps three square kilometers but it is putting up a fight. The final offensive to retake this town called Baghouz (INAUDIBLE) began at 6:00
p.m. local time yesterday. Overnight, there was almost constant coalition airstrikes. And into the day in fact, we woke up this morning at this
location at 5:00 a.m. to hear some massive explosions as the day began with increased intensified air strikes.
But we understand from the Syrian democratic forces, the U.N. backed forces that are leading the push into this town, that they have managed to take
some ground. They -- initially overnight there was very little resistance from ISIS, but as the day wore on, the going got much tougher. There have
been casualties on the side of the SDF today. And despite the fact that the fighting is ranging -- raging, what we saw it on the bluff just to my
right to the east is that there are still civilians trying to get out of the town.
We saw about eight making their way up the hillside but we understand that there are still many civilians left inside. Of course many of them it's
believed are being simply held as human shields. Those who have the money we were told, if you pay $1,000 you can somehow manage to get out. But
most people in there probably don't have that much money. But as far as the fighting goes, it's getting more intense and we understand that there's
a network of trenches and tunnels inside as well which makes it all the more difficult to make any progress inside. Becky?
ANDERSON: And Ben, you're clearly keeping the lights down. You know, not in any way trying to advertise your presence where you are because this is
-- this is a live situation. For those that you are talking about, for the residents who are stuck inside that town, what's their future looking like
tonight?
WEDEMAN: Bleak to say the least, but certainly it really will all depend on the investigations into those who are coming out what they find. Now we
were at one of the locations where the people leaving the town are processed and all adult males are questions. Questioned not by SDF
intelligence personnel but also by Americans, British, and French personnel who are there as well.
All the -- we saw many men actually being held. Probably they will go to a special camp which we might call Guantanamo East as far as their faith is
concerned. And others for instance we see -- I think you saw that report we did included Canadian women, they may also face some legal problems when
they return home.
As far as is the local residents go -- and we understand that at the end of the day there weren't that
many local residents left, that many of the inhabitants of this town behind me are actually families, relatives of ISIS members, they're going to have
to deal with the fact that they have the stench of ISIS upon them whether they were supporters or sympathizers or not, so their future as I said,
Becky, is bleak.
[10:30:05] ANDERSON: Ben Wedeman is in Eastern Syria for you this evening. Ben, thank you. We appreciate it. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD,
coming to you live from Dubai tonight. Coming out, from building our furniture to building our future. Artificial technologies, now very real
indeed. We get more on the rise of the robots, up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDRESON: Right now, the future of technology could be summed up by two little letters. A.I. Standing, of course, for Artificial Intelligence.
And whether it's this Jenga-playing robot recently unveiled at MIT or the technology that's powering our computers and smartphones, there is nothing
artificial about the impact that A.I. is having. Something the UAE is particularly keen to harness.
Joining us is Casper Klynge, who is the Danish tech ambassador. In fact, the first tech ambassador anywhere in the world. And I've been listening
to your podcast TechPlomacy Talk, which is actually fascinating. So, thank you for joining us.
CASPER KLYNGE, TECH AMBASSADOR OF DENMARK: Thank you for having me.
ANDERSON: We also joined by a very special guest tonight. Everybody meet the animal. He is really good at mapping. I am told he never gets bored
and unlike the rest of us, doesn't need to take breaks or retire. Casper, is this a future of tech right here?
[10:34:59] KLYNGE: I don't know. I hope it's a little bit more pretty- looking has rolled out. But they're as fast and the simplest can do quite a lot of things that robots couldn't do a few years ago. So, perhaps it
is.
ANDERSON: How important is technology? We're told that technology innovation, digital economies, e-government, that's the future. We keep
hearing that's the future. Is it the now?
KLYNGE: Well, I think it is. I think it's also a bit of dancer than I am, by the way. I think it is, and of course, you're speaking to tech
ambassador and I'm one of the reasons why Denmark decided to appoint a tech Ambassador was, you know, realizing that technology is going to transcend
everything we do.
Also as governments, but also that the tech industry is getting a bigger role with huge influence in the 21st century. And we need to begin to
relate to that also as governments. So, I think it is -- it's going to be central in the next decades.
ANDERSON: I just did a quick search for -- I'm sorry. I just did a quick search for artificial intelligence on Google. It's been a long day. And
the amount of information I got was absolutely staggering. From military applications to banking, a study at the human genome to uses of personal
assistant, it seems as though A.I. could impact almost every area of our lives.
We have asked this question before, I will ask it again. There are dangers, we know. How do we ensure A.I. is used responsibly?
KLYNGE: Well, I think one of the ways of doing that is by having discussions like we're having these days in Dubai. It's about making sure
that everybody's takes responsibility and this is called the World Government Summit. And of course, governments have a key role to play also
on the regulatory front.
But, of course, what I'm advocating and what Demark is proposing is that the industry also takes responsibility. This is not only about making sure
that official intelligence will do good for humanity, better health care, better education, but also to make sure that the values we -- value that
they are uphold, democracies human rights attachment.
ANDERSON: This point, you tweeted a response to the UAE's Cabinet Minister Mohammad Al Gergawi. He had said the most, and I quote him here. "The
most valuable commodity in the future will be imagination and ideas," good quote. You added, "I hope he is right but let those ideas be based on
democratic values, ethical standards, and a commitment to defend a rules- based international order. #TechPlomacy." Casper, can you elaborate on that literature?
KLYNGE: Well, you know, I've been in this job for 1 1/2 years. And never let a good crisis go to waste. Somebody said and I think what we've seen
with massive scandals Cambridge Analytica, as several scandals in the last 10 months. I think that shows that technology and we firmly believe that
is something which is going to transform the world in a very good way.
You know, empower people -- bring people to better opportunities. But there is a flip side of the corner, and that is we have to make sure that
some of the technologies and the platforms that will develop in liberal democracies that, that technology is not turns -- turned against us.
So, it undermines democracies that undermines the rules-based international system. That those are important things especially for a small country
like Denmark, for the European Union. But I would argue those are critical questions no matter where you live in 2019.
ANDERSON: So, you've been doing this job 18 months. Tell me best and worst case examples of where you have seen technology beginning to be
embedded within our lives.
KLYNGE: You know, best example I think is on healthcare. You know, I live in Palo Alto and spend most of my time there. So, in Silicon Valley, I
haven't met a big technology company yet who is not investing massively and artificial intelligence in healthcare. And I think that will bring better
treatment for cancer, it will solve some of the big issues in healthcare.
I think a fantastic example of how artificial intelligence is going to go first on the other side, what I've been shocked up about and what I -- what
I remain concerned about is what I would call sort of a lack of societal responsibility in the C-suite among some of the big technology companies.
And I think that's a democratic problem, and something we really need to address. This is an invitation for dialogue with the tech companies but it
takes two to tango.
ANDERSON: So, Casper, if you were to sit down tonight with Mark Zuckerberg, what is it that you would tell him that he needs to do next?
KLYNGE: Well, I would tell him that governments rarely get it right. I mean, especially on technology that are moving at a fast pace. We're
trailing behind, and I think in the digital age, that gap is going to expand. What I would tell? You know, Zuckerberg or some of his CEO
fellows is that the take into suite cannot do it alone either.
They need governments, they need to have a conversation with us to make sure that --
(CROSSTALK)
ANDERSON: They don't think they do need governments, either it takes some possibly that --
KLYNGE: Well, some of them do. Other's less so. But I think, some of these scandals and some of the big challenges in the last couple of years
have shown, you know, we do need a party where we work closer together and that's exactly what this tech do must initiative is about. And frankly
speaking, what my job is about. That is to increase the dialogue, also critical dialogue where we bring to the table issues that we don't
necessarily agree with but then we find mutual ways forward. And I think that is important.
We also have to remind ourselves that the big technology companies, especially the American, ones they sell products of liberal democracy is
the values that we've been fighting for, for several centuries. We need to stick together or sometimes the political turmoil.
[10:40:01] ANDERSON: Does it worry you that some of the conversations that you have in Silicon Valley consider those that you're having conversations
with? Consider what you've just talked about, you know, a rules-based or that -- you know, the values of liberal democracy that they're not
interested?
KLYNGE: Yes.
ANDERSON: And this is sort of an age-old -- sort of -- you know, the days of yours.
KLYNGE: I think, if you look at sort of the narratives on some of the big tech companies, of course, they've been saying, "You know, we work for the
greater cause of humanity, we are both governance, we're trying to connect people in a new different way, we do what governments cannot do any longer.
I think the honeymoon is over. I think many of them realize that, that is not necessarily the case. And if they indirectly, and I don't think
they're evil people sitting in the managerial positions. But if they help undermine democracies, they provide platforms that meddles with elections.
Well they are part of the problem, and they also need to take responsibility, and they need to work with government to fix those issues.
ANDERSON: Casper, pleasure and a delight. Thank you for coming in. And the viewers, if you will listen to podcast, do listen to TechPlomacy Talk.
It's absolutely fascinating. (INAUDIBLE) I'm pleased I've met you, sir.
KLYNGE: Thank you so much, Becky. Thanks.
ANDERSON: Bye. Animal. Is that -- oh, hello. Just off to a quick break, we go from tech to Trump as the world feels the weight of Trumpenomics. We
speak with renowned economists Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman. That is up next, do not go.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD with me, Becky Anderson from the World Government Summit in Dubai this evening, one world leader who
isn't here is U.S. President Donald Trump. He is certainly not around today. But his presence is being felt nonetheless, even as his ongoing
trade war with China drags down global markets, Mr. Trump maintains that he's unlikely to meet with his Chinese counterpart before March.
Instead, he's been touting his economic prowess, telling the State of the Union that the U.S. is quote sole considered, at least, "the hottest
economy anywhere in the world."
I'm joined here by economist Paul Krugman, he won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 2008. Also an economist at the York Times and a best-selling
author. Well, I listened to that State of the Union speech by the U.S. president and hearing that the U.S. was the hottest economy around.
Slightly surprised me, sir. Your thoughts.
PAUL KRUGMAN, PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS, GRADUATE CENTER OF THE CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK: Well, I mean, we do have full employment. Fuller
than anyone really thought was possible. That's turned out to be a surprise and that's good. Definitely, the job market is looking pretty
good.
Wage growth is really disappointing. So, the thing that we most lack in the U.S. is still not there. Investment is not responding to that tax cut.
So, I mean, it certainly you wouldn't give the U.S. economy a B+ or any minus. But it's not -- it's not paradise.
[10:45:08] ANDERSON: We'll the acting White House Chief of Staff Mick Mulvaney, says we, and I quote, "Absolutely, cannot rule out another
government shutdown this week." That will hurt things?
KRUGMAN: Yes, I mean that it's -- a sustained shutdown is really -- we keep on there's lots of ways we could have a recession. But that's a good
way to do it that would pretty much that's -- at has -- it's hugely disruptive, it's not just the lost salaries, the lost incomes, it's the --
it's the business gets harder and harder to do.
I mean, we actually turns out -- you know, you need a government to function and you can -- you can close for a while, but we were really
starting to feel the pain upon the prior shutdown, and if we go back in I think there'll be this huge sort of groan of disappointment that will start
to show in the -- in GDP pretty soon.
ANDERSON: And this at a time when we know that there is such anxiety around the U.S.-China relationship at present. The IMF just some weeks ago
at Davos, and predicting relatively gloomy outlook. I has to be said, and the -- and that trade war that potential trade war is one of the primary
reasons for that. How long if at all is it going to take for the U.S. president and the Chinese leaders to sort this out?
KRUGMAN: Well, the trouble we have on the whole, the U.S. -- I mean, there's two issues on the two as China relationship. One, China has in
some important ways been a bad after. Not the ways the Trump is after. It means, bilateral trade deficit is not the problem, intellectual property
is. And the Chinese have shown very little willingness to really move on that front.
But the other problem is that Trump personally has an obsession with the bilateral deficit which you cannot eliminate. So, what this is a problem.
ANDERSON: Isn't the third issue that the Chinese economy is actually slowing down only significantly?
KRUGMAN: Oh, yes. No, China --
ANDERSON: With full affect the world economy.
KRUGMAN: China is structurally has been -- you know, I've been on -- for years, I keep on saying this, Can I go on?" And the Chinese major to keep
it going, but they don't have enough consumption. They have too much investment, not enough consumption. They fundamentally need to have more
domestic demand. They keep on not managing to do that and maybe, maybe that those chickens are coming at some appropriate Chinese metaphor. But
something is going to -- is finally we may have finally hit the breaking point there.
ANDERSON: It's the year of the pig. I'm not quite sure how we would work that one (INAUDIBLE).
KRUGMAN: Yes, OK. Fine, (INAUDIBLE).
ANDERSON: But then, one and they since -- I get where you're going on this. Back to the U.S. president who is on our screens on the left-hand
side. This is a recorded footage, of course, we are into the opening of a new government in the U.S. A Congress led by the Democrats. And at the
beginning of what is clearly the campaign for 2020, and a presidential run.
Do you have remarked that you see no problem with more progressive candidates on the left for the Democrats? What you don't seem to be clear
about is who you think might run if anybody against the U.S. president on the right?
KRUGMAN: Oh, I mean -- within the Republican Party? I'll be surprised if someone is willing to -- is able even to do that. I mean, the trouble is
that the Republican Party has -- is a parties are very different. The Republican Party is this monolithic thing.
Very difficult to challenge any president and despite everything the base loves Trump. And so, no I don't think -- I don't think there's going to be
a serious internal (INAUDIBLE). What do I know? I know anything -- you know, know more than anyone else on that. But it's going to be interesting
to see where the Democrats go.
ANDERSON: Oxfam recently came out with this remarkable observation. The top 26 billionaire's own $1.4 trillion, which is nearly as much as four
billion other people. Those statistics are pretty worrying, aren't they?
KRUGMAN: Yes.
ANDERSON: Is growing inequality not just a political issue now, but also a security one, sir?
KRUGMAN: Oh, I am not sure. I mean, security is not the way I would have put it. But it is a -- it's a societal issue. At some level to function,
we need to have -- certainly, democratic societies need some sense that we're all living in the same universe. That we all have a stake in the
society we live in. And this extreme inequality with a -- with a small number of people who are completely not in the same world that we are in.
The same reality is a problem and I think that it contributes as part of the erosion of democratic norms that is helping to make things so bad.
ANDERSON: Well, we're here at the World Government Summit, much talk about tech and innovation around the sort of idea of e-government going forward.
When you talk to delegates here and you hear those speaking panels like yourself, how does what you are hearing here about the future or how will
it impact the bottom line, is it where four countries around the world?
KRUGMAN: Oh, you know, I'm a contrarian here. I mean, clearly, there's all -- this wonderful stuff happening technology is always wonderful stuff
happening in technology. Is it transformative in right now? And I always come back to the bottom line which is the productivity growth is actually
low.
We are -- we've had less technological progress over the past 10 years, substantially less than we expected to have. You go back to where people
in 2007 thought we would the now, we are not there now. And if we look at how much there's the -- you know, so, yes, machine learning is great. But
is it -- is it the kind of A.I. that people were talking about is how the computer ready to talk to us, is kind that they're -- you know, just really
-- none of that is happening.
So, in fact, we had this weird combination of enormous hype about technology and actually quite disappointing delivery.
[10:50:48] ANDERSON: We'll see, and things do get delivered a lot quicker today than they were being delivered back in 2007. The question is what?
KRUGMAN: That's right. Now --
ANDERSON: OK, we'll be delivered. Thank you, sir.
KRUGMAN: Thank you. Take care.
ANDERSON: Always a pleasure. We'll be back to wrap up everything that we have heard for you and digest it all from this, the world government summit
in Dubai. I'm Becky Anderson. This is CONNECT THE WORLD. Do stay with us for news.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: Well, what a busy hour from A.I. and innovation to the world economy, to ideas that will shape our future. We have covered it all this
hour here at the World Government Summit. Let's get some more perspective. Samuel Burke is with me to bring much of what he has heard here into focus.
And if there is one word or one company name that you have heard on more people's lips here than any other, it is --
SAMUEL BURKE, CNN BUSINESS AND TECHNOLOGY CORRESPONDENT: Huawei.
ANDERSON: Why?
BURKE: Everybody has been talking about 5G for years. But now 5G is here. This is the year that is starting to be rolled out in cities across the
United States, across the Middle East, and Asia. But all of the sudden, they've thrown a wrench into the game because most of these countries were
using Huawei, and because of the trade war, and because of the security concerns that the U.S. and other Western countries say they have, all of
the sudden, the company that may have been the leader in this, they're starting to have to pull it out of their systems.
But fascinatingly, every minister I've talked with here, every CEO, every telecoms executive has told me I don't see concerns with Huawei. Now, we
know there are theoretical concerns, but they say, "I've never seen anything. I use this with confidence." So, it's incredible what the West,
the United States especially is saying. But, where we don't actually see any proof publicly.
ANDERSON: We've got a minute left in this show. For the benefit of our viewers who aren't as up to scratch on 5G in its infrastructure as you are
just reminders. I know, here for example view is just in the UAE, 5G is expected to add something like a $273 billion to the economy in the next 10
years, so.
[10:55:10] BURKE: Consumers will like it because their phones will run a bit faster. You can watch Netflix on your mobile devices. But what it
really means in the economic opportunity you're talking about is that everything will be able to communicate with each other.
Your self-driving car will speak to the stoplight that will tell you that a bus is coming. So there's an opportunity for these telecoms companies to
make a lot of money and build new infrastructure where this is all embedded.
ANDERSON: And the U.S. argument against how Huawei at the moment is what?
BURKE: Is that there are security concerns that a Chinese company must be behold into China. And so, if we have it in all of our infrastructures if,
at some point, they want to listen in or they want to take secrets, it would be through there.
Now, those concerns may be legitimate, but there are concerns. We haven't seen the proof publicly.
ANDERSON: Fascinating. Thank you. We've been talking about the clockwork of our world. And so let's end on a man who once calculated the clockwork
of our universe. Isaac Newton, saying, "To see further than others, you must stand on the shoulders of giants."
And so, we've summited the summit as it were taking a long forward look into our future and our world for you from this, a World Government Summit
in Dubai. I'm Becky Anderson. That was CONNECT THE WORLD. Thank you so much for coming along with us for the ride. Same time tomorrow. Bye-bye.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
