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Trump Escalates Attacks As Impeachment Push Intensifies; Ukraine Fears Scandal Could Threaten Ties With U.S.; Saudi Crown Prince Denies Ordering Khashoggi Murder. Aired 11a-12p EST
Aired September 30, 2019 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:00:25]
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: The President is calling for Ukraine to investigate his rivals.
REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): If Democrats want to impeach because Rudy Giuliani talked to a couple Ukrainians, good luck with that.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): You could not ignore what the president did. He gave us no choice.
REP. TERRI SEWELL (D-AL): This whistle-blower allegation is so serious it gets to the very heart of our nation's democracy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But we track down two of those mentioned in the whistle-blower's complaint.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no conspiracy theories.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But Giuliani, it was the only interest in Ukraine is to get this information about Biden.
ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Abu Dhabi, this is CONNECT THE WORLD with Becky Anderson.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: There two words this hour, impeachment inquiry. Plus, Saudi Arabia's crown prince denying ordering a
journalist's murder, but taking full responsibility for it, as he also claims the alleged torture of a female protester in the kingdom would be
heinous if true. We speak to her brother.
And vaping may be worse for you than smoking. Plus, this is ground control (INAUDIBLE) The first Emirate in space beams down a message. We start with
the intensifying drama in Washington over the impeachment inquiry of U.S. President Donald Trump. Democrats are planning a flurry of subpoenas and
depositions this week and may question the whistle-blower that outed Mr. Trump's July phone call with the Ukraine's president.
All the while the President and his supporters digging in and ramping up the rhetoric. Over the past few days Mr. Trump has been tweeting a barrage
of attacks and threats at the whistle-blower and whoever gave him the information. He's hurling his biggest dose of vitriol at the Democratic
chair of the house committee taking the lead on the impeachment inquiry, accusing Adam Schiff of what he calls blatant and sinister lies.
And today questioning whether Schiff should be arrested for treason, a crime that in the U.S. is punishable by death. Well, Senior Washington
Correspondent Joe Johns is with us from the briefing room in the White House and Chief International Correspondent Clarissa Ward is in the
Ukrainian capital of Kiev. She has the latest on how Donald Trump's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani is smack in the middle of all of this.
Joe, let me start with you in Washington. This story dominating mainstream media and social, dominating the headlines. Let's just draw a breath.
Where are we, and what can we expect next?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, we certainly had a weekend of tweets from the President, haven't we? And we've also had a
number of defenders of the President going out on television, including the President's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani himself. A variety of
different stories. This is a message in the making, if you will, and it does not appear that they have yet coalesced around something that is
essentially factual and persuasive and rational to go forward but the impeachment inquiry process goes slowly.
A good example of that is a tweet over the weekend from the President about the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Adam Schiff. And among
the charges from the President, a suggestion that he ought to be arrested for betrayal of allegiance to the United States. I'll just read it to you.
Representative Adam Schiff illegally made up a fake and terrible statement, pretended it to be mine as the most important part of my call to the
Ukrainian president.
Read aloud to the Congress and the American people. It bore no relationship to what I said in the call. Question, arrest for treason. So
the President has been known to use the term treason inappropriately before. However we also have to point out that CNN has done a fact check
on the controversial language which occurred at the beginning of that hearing last week on Capitol Hill. CNN did find that the chairman of the
committee, Adam Schiff, took certain license with the President's words and made some confusing statements in fact.
So there's that. But on balance we also have to say the President of the United States has been found many times to have uttered false statements on
the record. Back to you.
ANDERSON: Yes. Adam Schiff in his defense would say that he was parroting what the U.S. President had said in that call.
[11:05:01]
ANDERSON: I think if we asked him live on air, he would say that he had actually said that. Thank you, Joe. Clarissa, one name as Joe points out
front and center in all of this, Donald Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani. A familiar character, it seems, to many in Ukraine. Explain, if
you will.
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So what we've done, Becky, is essentially to track down two of the people who are mentioned in
the whistle-blower's complaint and these two men could not be further apart in terms of the political spectrum. They have a very different
understanding of what exactly is going on here and what should be the response to it.
But what they do agree on, Becky, is that there is no doubt that the President's personal attorney, Rudy Giuliani, was actively and ardently
pushing to try to open an investigation in Ukraine into the President's -- or I should say President Trump's political opponents. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: Ukraine is struggling with the fallout of America's political crisis. Officials here aren't talking. But we tracked down two of those
mentioned in the whistle-blower's complaint, each with a very different perspective. Former diplomat Andrii Telizhenko says President Trump's Rudy
Giuliani approached him in May for a meeting. Telizhenko is known for his claims. The Democrats colluded with Ukrainian officials against Trump in
2016. He says the two men spent six hours discussing a range of issues.
ANDRII TELIZHENKO, FORMER UKRIANIAN DIPLOMAT: My insights on what's happening with the U.S.-Ukrainian relationship and the DNC Ukraine
collusion was also mentioned. Mr. Giuliani also asked me about Vice President Biden, what my thoughts was, what my insights were on him.
WARD: So you had the sense this was a priority for Mr. Giuliani.
TELIZHENKO: Yes. That's -- he doesn't hide it. That's his work. That's what he's hired to do, represent the president of the United States and his
personal interests. And --
WARD: By trying to further conspiracy theories about the President's opponents?
TELIZHENKO: No, there is no conspiracy theories in that. I'll just -- we need to investigate this properly.
WARD: Serhiy Leshchenko disagrees. He was an adviser to Ukranian President Zelensky's campaign and says Giuliani began applying pressure to
investigate the Bidens shortly after the election.
SERHY LESHCHENKO, FORMER CAMPAIGN AIDE TO PRESIDENT ZELENSKY: I knew it for sure because for Giuliani it was only interest in Ukraine to get this
information about Biden and to use this information in the U.S.
WARD: Do you think he was focused on it for the President or --
LESHCHENKO: For sure, not for his private purposes. We know who is Giuliani, we know what is his role. We know that he's acting not just a
private person but on behalf of his client.
WARD: So this wasn't a secret?
LESHCHENKO: It was a clear fact.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WARD: Now Giuliani has repeatedly defended his actions here in Ukraine. He has also denied any wrongdoing, even though both previous and current
prosecutors have said that there is no evidence whatsoever that either of the Bidens in any way violated Ukrainian law. Becky?
ANDERSON: Clarissa, Joe, thank you. Well, after holding off for months on launching an impeachment inquiry, Democrats in the U.S. House of
Representatives on our working double quick to keep the public's attention on these whistle-blowers report. Even though Congress is in recess, this
week, we'll see testimony by former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Yovanovitch, diplomat Kurt Volker and possibly the whistle-blower as well.
Well, joining me now from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania is Democratic Congressman Brendan Boyle. He thinks that, quote, "we have to push forward
with impeachment because the facts demand it". Sir, thank you for joining us. What fact in particular to your mind demands impeachment?
REP. BRENDAN BOYLE (D-PA): Unfortunately there are quite a few, but let me just focus on one, and it's not according to the whistle-blower, it's not
according to any Democrats' words, it's according to the White House's own released statement. And that is when the Ukrainian leader Zelensky
expressed the wish to purchase the javelins, which Ukraine badly needs as it continues to suffer under Ukrainian occupation in Eastern Ukraine, the
very next sentence was President Trump saying, I need you to do me a favor, though.
Right there the President broke at least two different federal laws. You don't actually need to break the law in order to be impeached, but if you
do commit serious felonies, clearly I think that demands impeachment.
[11:10:06]
ANDERSON: Is something you may consider a bit of irony, one of the few Republicans out challenging Donald Trump for the 2020 presidential
nomination says that this impeachment inquiry may actually hurt his already remote chances. I wonder if you just hear from Mark Sanford who explained
why a little bit earlier on CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK SANFORD (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It will bring tremendous discord within the political system that will then usurp the electoral process
that's now taking place on the Democratic side. On the Republican side what happens is people circle the wagons. They're -- they feel as if their
president is under threat. They circle the wagons that much harder and makes it that much more difficult to get your word out if you're a
challenger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Yes. And a new CBS YouGov poll, sir, shows a majority of Americans, 55 percent, now believe an impeachment inquiry is necessary.
And as you might expect, support very high among Democrats. Republicans strongly oppose the probe. But it does show a shift prior to the events of
last week. Polls consistently showed support for impeachment proceedings below 50 percent overall.
You've always been in favor of an impeachment inquiry as far as I understand it. Way before this whistle-blower report, way before the
transcript of this call was released. Can you just explain why and why things have changed so radically for you now.
BOYLE: So there are a few different things in there. First, I resisted calls for impeachment during 2017 when others were pushing for it,
including 2018 as well. Once the Mueller's special counsel investigation concluded and I read all 400 pages plus of the report as well as watched
his follow-up press conference, I concluded I thought that was sufficient grounds for impeachment. Now, that said, though, I was in the minority up
until the last week and a half.
To give you an idea just quantitatively of what kind of a shift we've seen, about a week and a half ago there were with 120, 125 house members who were
in favor of impeachment. It is now over 220. In terms of public opinion, about a week, week and a half ago, those in favor of impeachment not only
did it not reach 50 percent, as you pointed out, I don't think it reached 40 percent. It was somewhere in the high 30s. We are now over 50 percent
in favor of impeachment. So facts matter.
ANDERSON: Right.
BOYLE: Even on this highly partisan time, facts matter. People recognize the gravity of this Ukrainian situation with President Trump attempting to
extort the leader of Ukraine in order to get something that would be of a personal or campaign benefit to himself.
ANDERSON: Mark (ph), another poll asking how serious of a problem it is that the President Encouraged the president of Ukraine to investigate Joe
Biden and his son show nearly two-thirds believe it is serious, which speaks to what you've just been talking about. Now, the President himself,
the U.S. President himself, believes this is a witch-hunt, a witch-hunt again. He called the Mueller investigation, of course, a witch-hunt.
And we know this because, you know, he's been on a Twitter storm this weekend making all sorts of comments and allegations. I just want you to
describe the atmosphere on the hill, as it were. I know that Congress is in recess, but what's the atmosphere behind the scenes?
BOYLE: So this past week I would say it was sober, somber and extremely serious. I think, you know, for those who had not yet -- those who were
very disturbed by what they saw from President Trump were not yet prepared to come out in favor of impeachment and then really led there by the
overwhelming set of facts that were made public. There's a real sadness, believe it or not, that comes with this.
There's really no glee at all. This is a sad moment in American history, and I think for any of us who are patriotic Americans, we recognize that
this is our duty, it's our constitutional duty, but it's not something to be gleeful about because at the end of the day, there are no actual winners
because of the President's disturbing and illegal and increasingly erratic behavior.
ANDERSON: And to those briefly who say this is all about politics and not patriotism, you say what?
BOYLE: Well, first, we won in 2018. We won back the House of Representatives, had our best election since 1974 picking up 40 seats,
regardless of this.
[11:15:11]
Even before this Ukrainian matter erupted in the last week and a half, polls continue to show every leading Democratic candidate beating President
Trump next year, some like Vice President Biden by a double-digit margin. So the reality is regardless of this situation, I feel very optimistic and
confident going into 2020. Frankly, if it were just the politics, I would prefer to be talking about healthcare costs and prescription drugs and the
Republican tax plan that rewarded the wealthiest one percent of Americans.
So the reality is I think that it's quite clear that we are pursuing this because it's our constitutional duty, not because of the politics of it.
ANDERSON: Very briefly, going into 2020 with Joe Biden as the Democratic contender, yes or no?
BOYLE: Well, I have endorsed Vice President Biden. That said, we have an embarrassment of riches on the Democratic side. I am confident, while a
lot can change between now and a year and couple months from now, I am pretty confident that the Democratic nominee will be elected in 2020.
President Trump has had very low approval ratings throughout his presidency. It would be very challenging for him -- it would be very
challenging for him to win re-election even without this impeachment.
ANDERSON: Not necessarily backing Joe Biden is what I understand from that. Thank you, sir.
BOYLE: All right. No I --
ANDERSON: This is not the first time the country of Ukraine has gotten embroiled in a U.S. criminal scandal. There are (INAUDIBLE) suspicions
played the Manafort connection and even ties back to the administration of George H.W. Bush. That is at CNN.com with some insight on how Ukraine is
stuck between the east and the west. That's great analysis. And consider this, the outgoing head of the International Monetary Fund, Christine
Lagarde discussed the events in Washington with my colleague Richard Quest.
She state clear of the political aspect, a warned of the economic costs of impeachment. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTINE LAGARDE, OUTGOING MANAGING DIRECTOR, IMF: You know, I lived through Watergate and I was actually working on the hill as a little intern
of a member of the House Judiciary Committee, Bill Cohen. And I could see in those days how much energy, focus, brain power was actually spent on the
Watergate issues. If this is going to be the same again, I can only imagine how much more energy, brain, power and focus there will be on those
purely political issues, which will be a complete distraction from focusing on the economy, producing values, the well-being of people.
I respect what is going on and I have no opinion and no view because I'm not an American. But from an economic point of view and from the global
economic point of view, it could very well create massive disruption and I think it would undermine the U.S. leadership.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Christine Lagarde on the economic implications of impeachment. Well, live from CNN's Middle East programming hub here in Abu Dhabi, we are
connecting your world. This is CONNECT THE WORLD with me, Becky Anderson. Up next, the Saudi crown prince says the release of a female activist is
not up to him. We speak to that female activist's brother, up next.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After 20 years I was smoking at least a pack and a half a day and couldn't walk upstairs without losing my breath. I was coughing
up phlegm in the morning and throughout the day.
ANDERSON: So is the answer to smoking, vaping? Well, even that has led to a crisis of its own. Dr. Sanjay Gupta in the House helps us understand how
we got here. That all ahead after this short break. Do stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NORAH O'DONNELL, CBS ANCHOR: Did you order the murder of Jamal Khashoggi?
MOHAMMED BIN SALMAN, SAUDI CROWN PRINCE (through translator): Absolutely not. This was a heinous crime. But I take full responsibility as a leader
in Saudi Arabia, especially since it was committed by individuals working for the Saudi government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince, Mohammed bin Salman speaking to CBS' 60 minutes show. His remarks coming just days before the one-year
anniversary since the brutal murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi which tarnished the Crown Prince's reputation as a progressive leader. Criticism
replaced previous praise. For example, the spotlight turned from his support for women behind the wheel to the female activist jailed for
fighting for that exact right.
One of the most prominent Loujain al-Hathloul has been held in prison for over a year. This is what the Crown Prince said when asked about her
release and allegations of torture.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIN SALMAN: This decision is not up to me, it's up to the public prosecutor and it's an independent public prosecutor.
O'DONNELLL: Her family says that she has been tortured in prison. Is that right?
BIN SALMAN: If this is correct, it is very heinous. Islam forbids torture, the Saudi laws forbid torture. Human conscience forbids torture
and I will personally follow up on this matter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, I'm joined now by Loujain's brother. And the Crowns Prince says -- saying he will personally follow up on your sister's case.
Are you confident that will happen?
WALID AL-HATHLOUL, LOUJAIN AL-HATHLOUL'S BROTHER: Well, thanks for having me, Becky. Let's get to the facts. The facts are Loujain and parents have
submitted complaints a couple of times to the prosecutor about the torture, to the Saudi human rights commission. None of them have responded to us
and we've been waiting for so long and we didn't get an answer for that. In fact like the prosecutor actually reached the conclusion that torture
did not take place. He's denying the torture and this is what their -- what their conclusion is.
ANDERSON: OK.
AL-HATHLOUL: And, yes.
ANDERSON: So you've heard the Crown Prince suggest that he will follow up. What is your message to Mohammed bin Salman then tonight?
AL-HATHLOUL: Well, I'm just going to speak about what is really happening in reality. In fact is we never got an answer for that. And in fact when
they got to the conclusion that torture did not take place, they never got -- they never initiated any kind of investigation. Now, let's remind our
self about what the Crown Prince said just a year ago in his interview with Bloomberg. He said that Loujain and other women were part of a conspiracy.
[11:20:08]
And that they were working for foreign intelligence and getting money to finance people who are working in the state and to undermine the state
security. Now, I'm not going to comment on this. I'll leave it to the audience to make their own judgment. But (INAUDIBLE) doesn't say anything
about that. I believe CNN has a copy of that and they -- and they got access to it. They read the (INAUDIBLE) sheet and nothing says that she
was working for Iran and Qatar and none of that was mentioned.
In fact all of the charges that she's facing, most of them are related to her human rights activism and nothing that says that she was undermining
state security by working with foreign intelligence.
ANDERSON: Let's talk about the case then, because your sister, your other sister, Lina spoke at the United Nations Human Rights Council last week
saying, "I am here today despite the high risk of reprisal to Loujain, my family and myself, to call on all states and this council to demand that
the Saudi government immediately, unconditionally release my sister. What has been the response to that speech?
AL-HATHLOUL: Well, like there is always silence when it comes to speaking out. We never -- that's the thing, we never -- there is lack of
transparency in that process. I feel sad that nobody is responding to us. My parents never got any response in Saudi Arabia. They are in Saudi
Arabia, they are following the case. They are going through the official channels. And we're not getting anything.
I feel sad that we are chanting for vision in 2030 and the transparency that we're going to have but we are not able to solve the case throughout -
- through official channels, we are going through the media to solve this issue. And I feel sad actually to be on this show to try to find a
solution. I -- we shouldn't be on a -- on a show to solve this case. It should go through official channels. But that's the thing, they never
respond to us. There is lack of transparency.
They deny the torture. They -- for example, Saud al-Qahtani, we've been asking so many times to investigate about the torture because he was
complicit with the torture, he was overseeing the torture yet we don't know where he is. We need a response from the government who are here, now
what's going -- what's happening about him or why they're not responding about these -- well, they call it allegations, I call it facts. Yes.
ANDERSON: You -- and you've just made that request live on CNN. On International Women's Day, you wrote in the Guardian and I quote here, "how
can we achieve women's equality if we allow its greatest advocates to die in jail?" This will inevitably lead to the most vulnerable women remaining
silent. Do you believe that women's rights are a priority in the kingdom?
AL-HATHLOUL: Women's rights is a priority for not just Saudi women, for every woman. These are basic rights and I wish everyone should fight for
it. And we --everyone who believes in women's rights should fight for that right, regardless of where you are from, what's your background, what's
your faith, we're here altogether on this. Yes.
ANDERSON: Walid, thank you for joining us. An important interview on what has been an important day. Thank you. Well, how much do you know about
Mohammed bin Salman, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia? Test your trivia at CNN.com/connect. We -- where we have everything you need to know and the
rule is writing this region including a profile of Mohammed bin Salman, that is CNN.com/connect.
Well, up next, we get back to that call, the infamous chat between President Trump and his Ukrainian counterpart. Two words, impeachment
inquiry transfix America.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:33:16]
ANDERSON: Well, let's get you back to our top story we are tracking this hour for you. U.S. President Trump lashing out as Democrats begin their
push for a fast and focused investigation into his possible impeachment. President Trump firing off what can only be described as a barrage of
tweets, some aimed directly at the whistle-blower himself or herself, whose detailed complaint launched the impeachment inquiry, using words like spy
and treason.
The President demanding I deserve to meet my accuser. Well, meantime Democrats moving quickly on the inquiry now lining up witness and
subpoenas. Well, I want to get the take of CNN Legal and National Security Analyst Asha Rangappa. She is a former FBI Special Agent. She joins us
now live from New Haven in Connecticut. And you write in an op-ed for CNN.com, Asha this. The twists, turns and characters outlined in the
complaint filed by an unnamed whistle-blower read like a plot -- or a pilot for a new television series.
This, however, you say is real life. While the White House continues to deny any wrongdoing, the scope of activity presented in the complaint
raises many alarming issues. So walk us through some of those alarming issues, if you will.
ASHA RANGAPPA, CNN LEGAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Sure. I laid out basically five threads that we need to keep an eye on as the Congressional
impeachment inquiries go forward. The first is the substance of the complaint. And this is that the President essentially used his authority
to pressure the Ukrainian government to open an investigation on his opponent, Joe Biden.
[11:35:03]
RANGAPPA: And also to potentially try to find evidence that the 2016 election interference was because of Ukraine, not Russia. This can be
corroborated by the actual transcript of the complaint and potentially by people in the White House who the whistle-blower spoke to. The second one
is even more problematic. And I can stop for each one or I can just go through them very quickly.
ANDERSON: No, go on. Please carry on, carry on.
RANGAPPA: Yes. This is -- this involves potentially trying to cover up this conversation by moving the transcript into a highly sensitive code
word server. Code word, you know, systems are meant for very specific types of information. This transcript would not be one of them. And it
looks like one of the reasons they put it here was to restrict access and potentially keep it from being discovered by, you know, a broader set of
people.
We also have potentially two agencies that are involved in this. The state department, which may have facilitated meetings between Trump's private
attorney, Rudy Giuliani, and officials in the Ukrainian government, and the Department of Justice who has an inquiry open into the origins of Mueller's
Russia investigation and who Mr. Giuliani claimed he was trying to assist. Of course at the center of all this is Rudy Giuliani himself, President
Trump's private lawyer.
And I think it remains to be seen whether he was working in an official capacity or in a private capacity and whether Congress can get him to
testify.
ANDERSON: Yes, absolutely. And that's the big question, will they -- will they achieve that? Will we see him testify, do you think?
RANGAPPA: I do think so because the only thing that he may have to hide behind is attorney/client privilege. And I think that is going to be an
uphill battle for him for a couple of reasons. First, I don't even know that it applies in this case because for attorney/client privilege to
apply, you have to be representing someone on a legal matter. And it looks like Mr. Giuliani was acting as a political operative, which is -- which is
not a strictly legal matter that he would be representing him on.
But also if Rudy Giuliani was engaged in anything illegal, the attorney/client privilege cannot be used to shield potentially illegal
conduct. That's called the crime fraud exception to the attorney/client privilege. So, I think in this case especially given that the House is
working under its constitutional authority to conduct an impeachment inquiry, Mr. Giuliani will be hard pressed to try to invoke that privilege
as a way to not give his side of the story.
ANDERSON: Yes. Fascinating. All right. It is going to be a busy, busy week. We'll have you back. You make an awful lot of sense. Thank you for
your time.
RANGAPPA: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
ANDERSON: We are all over this like a rash, as it were. This is the investigation inquiry. We are also, though, looking this hour at the
following. The vaping crisis exploding through the United States. After decades of anti-tobacco campaigns, how did vaping become so acceptable for
so many so fast?
Plus SpaceX CEO Elon Musk speaks with CNN. Why he says the company's new starship is the key to putting humans on mars. All that coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:40:48]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've been smoking camels for 20 years. I know they're mild and they really taste great.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More doctors smoke camels than any other cigarette. Why not change to camels for the next 30 days and see what a difference it
makes in your smoking enjoyment.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Which cigarettes does your doctor recommend you smoke? Well, in the '30s and '40s, tobacco companies would happily tell you it was theirs.
Well, today the pitching of cigarettes as healthy may appear horrifying, but this advertising strategy tends to repeat itself over the years. E-
cigarette companies are now encouraging smokers to take up vaping to help users stop smoking. But that doesn't seem to be working.
CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta has been looking into all of this and has the first of what is a special series now on the vaping
epidemic and how we got here.
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: There are really two separate issues when it comes to vaping right now in this country. There
is the concern about these mysterious lung injuries. Hundreds of people who have been sickened. There have been many people who have died.
Investigators are still looking into that. But then the larger question, perhaps, is the impact on the next generation on youth nicotine addiction.
So today we wanted to look specifically at how did we get here with vaping and where is it going next?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. JOE KENNEDY III (D-MA): -- more products.
GUPTA: Last week lawmakers had some tough questions for the FDA.
KENEDY: There was clearly a massive regulatory failure that allowed this to happen, was there not?
DR. NED SHARPLESS, ACTING COMMISSIONER, U.S. FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION: Speaking about the epidemic use of e-cigarettes, in retrospect the FDA
should have acted sooner. We should have began regulating these vices sooner.
GUPTA: Could we have predicted this problem?
DR. MICHAEL SIEGEL, AMERICAN TOBACCO CONTROL EXPERT: I think we could have. And I think we could have helped to prevent it.
GUPTA: Dr. Michael Segal has been researching tobacco for 34 years. Most of his attention lately, vaping. How many people do you think are vaping
in the United States right now?
SIEGEL: So the estimate is that right now there are approximately 10 million.
GUPTA: And how many of those people do you think are former smokers?
SIEGEL: So of the adults, I think the overwhelming majority are ex-smokers or smokers who are dual using.
JAMES HILGREEN, FORMER SMOKER: After 20 years I was smoking at least a pack and a half a day and couldn't walk upstairs without losing my breath.
I was coughing up phlegm in the morning and throughout the day.
GUPTA: While many vapors are dual users, meaning they also smoke, 41-year- old James Hilgreen is one of the three million who have completely replaced their cigarette habit with vaping.
HILGREEN: It will be four years actually at the end of this year where I made a resolution to quit smoking altogether.
GUPTA: One study found that nearly 20 percent of people who vaped to stop smoking were still off cigarettes a year later. That's twice as effective
as other nicotine replacement strategies.
HILGREEN: Throughout that whole process I've felt better and better. Been able to exercise more, I feel better.
GUPTA: The story of vaping is also the story of smokers, who starting in the 2000s turned to e-cigarettes to help kick their habit. But more
recently that story has taken an ugly turn because as former smokers like James have turned to vapes so have kids. The numbers will boggle your
minding. In 2017, 11.7 percent of high school students vaped. In 2018, it jumped to 20.8 percent. And now 27.5 percent of high school students admit
to using e-cigarettes. The CDC estimates over three million high school students are currently vaping. How did we get here?
DR. ANNE SCHUCHAT, ACTING DIRECTOR, U.S. CENTER FOR DISEASE CONTROL: We know that often the first product a teen uses is a flavored one, and there
have been flavors that are really targeted at young people. Candy, fruits, and so forth.
GUPTA: It's why states like New York, Michigan, Rhode Island are now banning the sale of flavored products. The Trump administration has
proposed a similar ban just a few weeks ago.
HILGREEN: People don't like flavors, adults don't like flavors? I think that's pretty crazy to say.
SIEGEL: A lot of adult ex-smokers who have quit smoking using these flavored products are almost certainly going back to smoking.
[11:45:02]
GUPTA: Why?
SIEGEL: Because it's such a strong addiction.
GUPTA: They still have the tobacco-flavored e-cigarettes. Why would they go back to smoking?
SIEGEL: I think the reason is because the whole point of switching to vaping was to get away from the tobacco flavor.
GUPTA: It wasn't to reduce the harm of tobacco?
SIEGEL: Well, it was. But I think that what is really is sustaining it and appealing to them is the flavors.
GUPTA: On one hand there may be evidence that it helps adults who are smoking stop smoking. On the other hand, it is very attractive to young
people and may create more vapers and subsequently more smokers. Ultimately, if that's the balance, how does an organization like the CDC
decide what they're going to recommend?
SCHUCHAT: We don't think that the cessation of smoking in adults should be at the expense of teenagers. We really right now are focused on protecting
youth from a life of nicotine addiction.
GUPTA: And there is a deeper concern. According to the national institute on drug abuse, nearly 31 percent of teen e-cigarette users go on to smoke
regular cigarettes within six months. I decided to ask my own kids and their friends about it. Like what makes a teenager continue to vape
despite all that they have heard?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's like being able to like rebel.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I feel like maybe it starts off as them like getting it in order to fit in and like, oh, I have a Juul.
GUPTA: For them, it's mostly Juul.
ASHLEY GOULD, CHIEF ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER, JUUL: We were completely surprised by the youth usage of the product, and we are taking measures now
and will take increasing measures to prevent that use on a going-forward basis.
GUPTA: In 2018, the vaping story took a turn again. Altria, the parent company to Philip Morris USA bought a 35 percent stake in Juul, and the new
CEO of Juul, he comes from the world of tobacco.
SIEGEL: You know, they're going to make money if people smoke. They're going to make money if people quit. And so, I think that's part of the
problem.
GUPTA: It's a conflict, a huge one, and one that many in the vaping community are taking notice of. Steadily distancing themselves from Juul
and blaming them and demo loaned for the dramatic rise in youth nicotine addiction.
SIEGEL: I think that there is a fundamental difference between Juul and all other e-cigarettes. It's completely different nicotine form and that
nicotine form is rapidly absorbed into the bloodstream. I think Juuling to me represents a far greater hazard than just using a regular e-cigarette.
GUPTA: Now, it's worth pointing out, we did reach out to Juul. They would not sit down with us for an interview at this point, but they did say that
they would abide by this ban on flavorings and also suspend all their advertising on print and digital and broadcast in the United States. So,
again, two separate issues going on here. The mystery lung illnesses on one hand and then what we've just talked about this impact on the next
generation.
ANDERSON: Yes. Fascinating. And this is just the first of several reports on vaping that Dr. Sanjay Gupta will be bringing you here on CNN.
Let's hear your thoughts. Different countries of course different rules on vaping and e-cigarettes. So join the global conversation wherever you are
watching in the world by catching up with me on Twitter. That's @BeckyCNN. You can find a lot more on that and on the show at CNN.com/connect, of
course.
Still to come this hour, an out of this world unveiling. SpaceX shows off its new reuseable spaceship. Elon Musk speaks with CNN on why the
development is so critical to put people on Mars.
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[11:51:01]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAZZAA ALMANSOORI, ASTRONAUT (through translator): It's a beautiful view. The view of earth from space is so beautiful. The blue water, the white
clouds, the dry land. But the most beautiful thing I saw from space was the United Arab Emirates.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: That is astronaut Hazzaa AlMansoori, the first Emirati in space giving a classroom of kids here in the UAE. A lesson, quite frankly, out
of this world. Phoning home and answering questions from the International Space Station. Now, AlMansoori didn't take the first step for mankind but
he did take the step for the UAE's space ambitions, rocketing ever closer to this country's hope Mars mission which is set to launch next year.
That's the space exploration probe intended to arrive on Mars in 2021, coinciding with the 50-year anniversary of the founding of this, the UAE.
Well, the race to Mars could soon include you and me, billionaires fueling the dream of sending private passenger rockets into spaces. Bringing in
CNN's very own explorer of the Cosmos, Rachel Crane who has been speaking to one. So, Rachel, Elon Musk has said he wants to die on Mars, just not
on impact. Are we getting any closer to landing humans on the red planet?
RACHEL CRANE, CNN INNOVATION AND SPACE REPORTER: Well, Becky, in short it's going to be a while until we have boots on Mars, but SpaceX, they
still are eyeing a potential 2022 uncrewed mission to the red planet, but there's going to be a lot of steps that have to be taken in order for them
to pull that off. But they say that the unveiling of starship, this prototype, is a major milestone. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRANE: Your goal has always been to make this a multi planetary species.
ELON MUSK, CEO AND LEAD DESIGNER, SPACEX: Yes.
CRANE: To establish a colony on Mars. Tonight, today, the unveiling of starship, is that a turning point in that mission?
MUSK: Yes. I think that is the first time we have real hardware of something that is capable of with a little evolution of being something
that can create a self-sustaining city on Mars and a base on the moon, absolutely.
CRANE: You said tonight that you might be flying people in a year in this thing?
MUSK: If the development continues to improve exponentially then I think we could be sending people to orbit before they have next year, you know,
within a year possibly approximately.
CREANE: But SpaceX hasn't put a human in space yet. How are you guys going to do this in a year?
MUSK: Well, we will be putting people into orbit soon. We will be transporting nationals for NASA in probably three or four months to the
space station.
CRANE: Yes. On that point, NASA administrator Jim Bridenstine yesterday tweeted saying that he was very excited about the event today but he also
said "commercial crew is year's behind schedule and it's time to deliver." Did you take that --
MUSK: Did he say commercial crew or SLS?
CRANE: He said commercial crew.
MUSK: Oh, OK. Geez.
CRANE: Interchangeable. Now, but how do you respond to that and did you take that as a dig?
MUSK: Well, I mean, first of all, everything in aerospace is years behind, OK? It's really a question of relatively speaking which one is more late.
So the hardware for how to abort demonstration for crew dragon will be there in October. The hardware for the first crewed flights will be there
in November. And so most of the work that is required from now through the flight of NASA astronauts is a long series of safety reviews.
So it's not really hardware-related and it's really going as fast as we can make it go. If there's some way to make it go faster, I would make it go
faster.
CRANE: Let's talk been funding. You've said in the past that starship would cost between $2 and $10 billion. Are you still looking at that price
tag to last?
MUSK: Yes, yes. A big range.
[11:55:05]
MUSK: I mean, I think it's probably closer to two or three than it is to 10.
CRANE: Is that because of the switch to steel?
MUSK: The switch to steel is quite -- is fundamental. You know, I think that's -- literally that might be the best design decision I've ever made.
I can't think of a better one. The steel is lighter than the carbon fiber solution or lighter than the aluminum solution and costs two percent as
much. So --
CRANE: In hindsight, do you wish that you had used steel --
MUSK: Absolutely, no brainer.
CRANE: The climate crisis, we've seen protests all over the globe this month mostly led by young people like Greta Thunberg.
MUSK: Yes.
CRANE: Does the public outcry? Does that increase the urgency for what you guys are doing here?
MUSK: Well, I mean, I really view what we're doing here as making life multi-planetary as opposed to escaping -- I mean, I think like 99 percent
of our resources should be on making sure the future on earth is good but I think at least one percent of our resources should be making it multi
planetary and extending consciousness out to other planets, both for the defensive reason of preserving the light of consciousness into the future
as well as the adventure and excitement. I find it more motivating than the defensive argument.
CRANE: So you prefer to be an optimist rather than a pessimist?
MUSK: I mean, I think excitement and adventure and a sense of possibility about the future are incredibly important. Otherwise, why live?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: So Rachel Crane there. Rachel, fantastic reporting, thank you. I'm Becky Anderson. That was CONNECT THE WORLD. Tonight somewhat further
than just our world. Thank you for watching wherever you are. Good night.
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