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Whistleblower Attorney: I'm Representing A Second Whistleblower; Party Lines Are Drawn As The Investigation Ramps Up; Clashes As Demonstrators Defy Ban On Face Masks; Death Toll IN Protest Rises To 100 People; Trump: Focused On Fighting Corruption, Not Politics; Pence Defiant After Request For Documents; Star Gymnast Biles Nails Two More Moves To Be Named After Her. Aired 11-12p ET
Aired October 06, 2019 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- wrote on Twitter, Mitt Romney never knew how to win. He is a pompous ass who has been fighting me from the beginning.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): The path that we are going on now in terms of an inquiry of impeachment. It's sad.
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Adam Schiff, he's a lowlife. They should look at him for treason.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is just more or the same from what we've seen from Democrats for the last two and a half years.
PELOSI: Donald, you used to own a casino, you know, the House always wins.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Abu Dhabi, is CONNECT THE WORLD with Becky Anderson.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Well, this hour, there is another, a second whistleblower against the American president. This time,
we are told they were right there first-hand knowledge.
And then, they want jobs, the Iraqi government is shooting them dead. We're in Baghdad amid the protests this hour. That more coming up.
The evidence is mounting as the second whistleblower emerges in the Trump Ukraine inquiry. The lawyer of the first whistleblower now telling CNN's
Jake Tapper that he is also representing a second, and that person is also a member of the Intelligence Community. We are told they have first-hand
knowledge that support claims made by the first whistleblower.
President Trump, meanwhile, responding in his usual fashion on Twitter venting is fury at anyone who raises the impeachment issue. Let's start
this hour at the White House. CNN Correspondent -- U.S. Correspondent Kristen Holmes is staying right across what are these fast-moving
developments for you. And Kristen, just how big a deal is this?
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN U.S. CORRESPONDENT: Well, Becky, this is a huge deal. Keep this in mind. When the original whistleblower complaint came out, we
heard from Donald Trump who actually sparked this in other Republican senators and House Republicans. They all said will tear say it's hearsay.
It's second-hand information. How could you really know? No one can be prosecuted on a crime, they cannot be charged with the crime if it's
hearsay.
Well, what we're learning now is that this whistleblower has a first-hand knowledge which knocks that argument right out. Now, the other thing we
know is that he's also already spoken to the Inspector General of the Intelligence Committee and that is why he is technically considered a
whistleblower.
And I want to be clear here, I keep saying he but it could be a woman. I'm just using that naturally. But that once he spoke to the watchdog office,
that he became a whistleblower. But he has not filed a formal complaint so we're waiting on that. But it's very clear here to note that even though
this whistleblower has just now come out, there were rumors about it for the last week.
And President Trump already trying to shape his own narrative on this second whistleblower. I want to show you a tweet he sent out yesterday and
this is during that tweetstorm you mentioned. "The first so-called second- hand information whistleblower got my phone conversation almost completely wrong. And now the word is they're going to the bench and another
whistleblower is coming in from the deep state, also, with second-hand information, meet with shifty keep them coming."
So a couple of things here. It's very clear that President Trump is trying to state his own narrative. As we know, we've just talked about it, the
second whistleblower has first-hand information, not second-hand, as the President says. And this whole idea that it's coming from the deep state,
coming out of the woodwork, in him essentially egging it on.
Clearly here he is trying to push his message forward. And his message has been, essentially anyone who stands up against him whistleblower,
Republican, and Democrat, he's going to insult them likely on Twitter, or maybe in person, maybe out loud or one of these rallies, but he's really
sending a message that this is his strategy as we move forward in this impeachment inquiry.
ANDERSON: Because he says it's a hoax. All right, OK. Well, Kristen, thank you for that. It is a Washington high stakes showdown with Democrats
on one side, Republicans on the other, and in the middle the President of the United States.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Nancy Pelosi hands out subpoenas, like you know, she has to approve it. She hands out subpoenas, like they're cookies. You want a subpoena?
Here you go take them like their cookies.
PELOSI: Donald, you used to own a casino. You know, the House always wins.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: You just heard that. It appears that maturity goes out the window doesn't it somewhat when a presidency is under five. But with the
2020 election on the horizon, can you blame them for getting a bit heated? What do they have to lose? We'll talk about this more, I'm joined now by
member of President Trump's campaign advisory board, that Steve Rogers, and the former chief of staff to Nancy Pelosi Nadeam Elshami.
And to both of you, thank you very much, indeed, for joining us. Let's start with you Nadeam. I have to start with your response to what is the
breaking news in the past couple of hours of the emergence of a second whistleblower, someone who is in the Intelligence Community, and we are
told, has first-hand knowledge. Very briefly, sir.
[11:05:39]
NADEAM ELSHAMI, FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF TO NANCY PELOSI: Sure. The evidence is mounting against President Trump, about the call. He had the first --
the first whistleblower, then the White House reacted by releasing a -- what they view as the transcript of the call, which proved it even more.
You had a former ambassador testify before the committee and release texts messages. Then you have this whistleblower coming forward.
The evidence continues to build against the president and the facts are facts. The President is engaged in the crisis, communications type
atmosphere, while Democrats are attempting to find the truth, and it seems to be stacking up against the President.
ANDERSON: What's interesting, Steve, is there seems to be no crisis management at the moment. And we can talk about that no crisis management
at the White House. It seems President Trump is out front on all of this doing his own -- doing his own thing. But just your response in the first
instance, if you will, to the emergence of this second whistleblower and its significance.
STEVE ROGERS, TRUMP CAMPAIGN ADVISORY BOARD: Well, there isn't much of a crisis. A lot of this is being blown out of proportion, as did they blow
out of proportion to Russia investigation. Number one, the first whistleblower utterly failed. There's not enough evidence to move the
impeachment proceedings.
Now, we have a second whistleblower. But I find two interesting things about both whistleblowers, number one, we don't know who they are, but more
importantly, the Congressional committee investigating this or talking to the whistleblowers are refusing to let the Republicans on the committee
question them.
So we have a bear real big problem here with regard to the credibility of these whistleblowers, not too much to worry about.
ANDERSON: All right, well, let me put this to you because one of my colleagues certainly doesn't agree with you. Washington Post columnist
Josh Rogin who is a friend of the show and often on CNN just wrote this on Twitter moments ago that "If the President of the United States gets
impeached pretending to prove a conspiracy theory -- and this, of course, is about the Biden's -- that wasn't even true, that is the stupidest
political moves in history." You're in the game of coms, Steve. Can you really disagree with that?
ROGERS: Well, look, this is his opinion. He has a right to his opinion. It's not going to -- look, what's more importantly, is the Congress is
wasting their time. They know they don't have the votes in the Senate. Absolutely not going to happen.
So the -- and what I'm hearing and I'm sure a lot of people are hearing is that the American people are fed up with the Democrats and what they're
doing to this country in that Congress. So to me, look, he expressed his opinion, but I totally you know, think it's nonsensical.
ANDERSON: You forgot more about Nancy Pelosi and her sort of strategy that even the most will ever know. So let's just have a -- have a chat about
what's going on behind the scenes here and what our end game might be. One of my -- one of CNN's political analyst, Julian Zelizer writes, "Currently
Pelosi is allowing the investigation and the ensuing drama to play out until she has secured total control of her caucus. She knows that
Republican support remains doubtful and she wants to be 100 percent certain that if and when she brings articles of impeachment to the floor, she has
the votes needed to get them through."
She clearly at this point knows that she doesn't have support in the Senate. What's the end game here? So let's just get inside Nancy Pelosi
is mine first, if you will.
ELSHAMI: Sure. Nothing comes to the floor under Nancy Pelosi's watch unless it gets 218 votes. She's never lost the vote. And as a matter of
fact, when she was Minority Leader, she delivered the vote for many Republican type legislation. So let's just go from there.
However, this is a serious matter. And I want to you know, you hear all these buzzwords, all these communications words from the Republicans, but
they don't argue the facts. And let me just say one thing. If you take out the word Trump from the transcript and replace it with Obama, and you
take out the word, for example, Biden and replace it with Romney, could you imagine what Republicans would be doing at the moment? They will call it
all kinds of name and they would demand immediate resignation of President Obama.
So let's just get this straight. What has been happening here has led up to where we are with this impeachment investigations and it's going to take
time. It's going to take time to get the information and the White House is stonewalling, whether it's on subpoenas, whether it's on information
that they're -- you know, whether they're telling witnesses not to come and testify.
But this is going to take a bit of time. And once all the evidence is there a decision will be made. But let's just remember, nothing comes to
the floor unless the votes are secured under Nancy Pelosi.
[11:10:31]
ANDERSON: But what was really interesting and I want Steve to weigh in here, is the question is -- and she will know this, is does she have time?
I mean, at the end of the day, and we can see the speed of this investigation has been pretty fast, but Mitt Romney a Republican to break
ranks with the president, Senator Susan Collins now calling out Mr. Trump for suggesting China should investigate Democratic rival Joe Biden, Collins
telling a newspaper in Maine, it was a big mistake and completely inappropriate for President Trump to ask China to investigate the former
vice president.
These are Republicans. Steve, I guess the question is this. When this whole thing started, which is only about, what ten -- 12 days ago, there's
much talk that one, the democrats will never get support on the floor of the Senate, and that's important in the end for impeachment. And two,
voters don't like impeachment. They're going to get -- they're going to get fed up of this. Is that way you stand, the president -- behind the
scenes, is that the hope that this thing is just sort of going to fall apart?
ROGERS: Well, it's falling apart already. Keep in mind that Nancy Pelosi did not yet bring this issue as a vote to the floor. And the reason is,
there are Democrats in Congress who are not in support of impeachment. They are in very, very critical condition with regard to trying to get
reelected Democrat -- in districts where the President won. So she doesn't have the support of the Congress yet.
And if she does, and it's move forward, look, it'll go to the Senate and fail. But you know, you brought up a good point. The voters are just fed
up with this. They want -- they want their taxes cut, they want their quality of life improve, they want health care taking care of. This has
become a real sad situation with regard to the Democrats failing to govern. The only one governing in Washington D.C. is President Trump.
ELSHAMI: You know, that's -- you know, that that's unfortunate, because these are again, our talking points. You're not talking about the facts,
you're talking about process. Look, you know, how much longer will the Republicans continue to defend a president who asked for foreign help from
an adversary in order to go after his political opponent?
ROGERS: Well, I'll answer the question.
ELSHAMI: Could you -- could you imagine -- could you imagine if you're on the other foot -- if this shoe was on the other foot, Republicans and you
would be on saying enough is enough.
ROGERS: Absolutely not. Look, look, here's -- number one, I want to get one thing straight. When I come on these programs, I don't come with
talking points. I speak to the host and others based on what I'm hearing from people, Democrat, Republican, and Independent. So -- and let's get it
a talking point issue. That's number one.
Number two, when you're making statements that all of the Republicans would respond this way, that way, well, you could say that to somebody else, all
right. The fact of the matter is that the people in this country, Democrat, Republican, Independent are fed up with what's going on. We went
through this with the Russia investigation and failed and this is going to fail.
ELSHAMI: We can argue polls all you want. Let's argue the facts.
ANDERSON: Let's just take a listen to this. Sorry, guys. Let me just stop you for a moment. I want to get our viewers have listened to former
Secretary of State Colin Powell, speaking to my colleague, Fareed Zakaria earlier. Now, Colin Powell, obviously served under the Republican
President George W. Bush. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
COLIN POWELL, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: The Republican Party has got to get a grip on itself right now. Republican leaders and members of
the Congress, both Senate and the House are holding back because they're terrified of what will happen to anyone of them. If they speak out, will
they lose a primary?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Steve, you say crisis, what crisis, but behind the scenes, I mean, aides are saying that there is a serious sense of sort of
mismanagement of the way that this has gone with regards to the White House. Again, you know, you're working your sources, you're behind the
scenes, what is going on?
ROGERS: What is going on is that people are waiting, and that's Democrats and Republicans are waiting for facts. You know, in the 70s, there used to
be a T.V. program called Dragnet, Jack Webb, always said, just the facts, ma'am, just the facts. Right now we've got a lot of conjecture, we have
uncorroborated testimony, we've got whistleblowers who haven't been identified.
So these individuals are waiting for the facts. And they learned from the Russia investigation, don't jump the gun and say a man is guilty when he's
not. And in this case, the President is guilty of nothing. They know it but let's see where the facts lead us.
[11:15:03]
ANDERSON: Last word, Nadeam.
ELSHAMI: Yes, it's -- you do have the facts. You do have text messages between American officials in Ukraine. You do have testimony before the
committee, the Intelligence Committee from former officials in Ukraine. You do have the White House own transcript of the call between the
President and the Ukrainian president and you also have the presence on words.
These are facts and this is what the Democrats are looking at. And one more fact that hasn't been discussed so far is the White House has taken so
much effort in order to hide some of these transcripts and provide only access to a few -- to few folks in you know, in government, whether it's
with China, whether it was Saudi Arabia, whether it's with Ukraine. These are all facts, and they are non-negotiable.
ROGERS: And there's one more fact, Joe Biden's statement over what he do - -
ANDERSON: OK, I'm going to leave -- I'm going to leave with that, guys.
ROGERS: Thank you.
ELSHAMI: Thank you so much.
ANDERSON: Thank you for very much. We'll have you back. Before we move on, let's jump back to 1787 in a bit to remind the President that it was
not above the law. America's Founding Fathers added an impeachment clause to the U.S. Constitution. So what would America's Founding Fathers think
of today's chaos in Washington?
Well, take a look at this exchange on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION" between former Republican Congressman Mark Sanford and Joe Walsh, both of whom are
running against Mr. Trump in 2020.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE WALSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This President deserves to be in peached. Jake, nobody from the White House and no high-level Republicans
are on this show today because there's nothing to defend. This president betrayed his country again this week. Would I vote if I were in Congress
on the inquiry? There's enough we know now to vote to impeach this president.
He said stood on the White House lawn this week, Jake, and told two additional foreign governments to interfere in our election. That alone is
impeachable. This is a strong term I'm going to use, but I'm going to say it on purpose. Donald Trump is a traitor.
Now, I know there's a lot of talk about treason, right? People on both sides, Jake, had been irresponsible using that word treason. I'm not
accusing this president of treason. Our Founders were very specific as to what treason is. But when you look at traitor more broadly defined, this
president betrayed our country again this week. And it's not the first time he did it.
Excuse me. I don't know that we should move forward incrementally. This president needs to be impeached, Jake, just based on what he himself has
said. And Republicans better get behind that.
JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: Congressman Sanford?
MARK SANFORD (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I respectfully disagree. In other words, the nature of process is not to come to the conclusion at the
beginning of it. And to people to step out and say he needs to be impeached is to actually diminish and discard with the very process that's
laid out by Founding fathers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Fascinating discussions. Stay with us here on CONNECT THE WORLD because with the U.S. Vice-President -- Vice-President firmly in the
spotlight, we speak to an expert on Mike Pence. Tom Lo Bianco, the author of Piety and Power. That's in around 15 minutes.
Right now though, there have been massive shows of defiance in Hong Kong. Demonstrations have been taken to the streets in the thousands to protest
the law banning Facebook. Well, what began as peaceful marches turned to clashes with the police. And some protesters threw bricks and set fires
and police fired tear gas and made arrests in response.
CNN's Anna Coren has been in the thick of it. She's filed this report as police moved in to detain and disperse the crowds.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNA COREN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, police have just set a current operation. As you can see, multiple protesters have been arrested.
They're set for about 10, 15 minutes waiting and then suddenly they charged.
These protesters, these hardline protesters have set barricades on fires. They threw petrol bombs and bricks. The police have just come in and
arrested. As you can see, there are at least a dozen people who have been arrested.
Today is an unlawful assembly. These people can be arrested just being here. But they also were defying the facemask ban. Earlier, at least tens
of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people march peacefully to the streets in Hong Kong defying that facemask ban which is put in place
midnight on Friday to try and restore law and order to the streets of Hong Kong.
This is now been going on for some 18 weeks. Certainly enormous toil on police -- taking enormous toil on police. We're being told to move. The
press is being told to move. The protesters that are striking today say they are going to continue to come out fighting for their city, for their
freedom. And for this, we believe it is. Anna Coren, CNN Hong Kong.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[11:20:41]
ANDERSON: And just in to CNN, we are learning that a taxi driver plowed his vehicle into a crowd of protesters during Sunday's demonstrations. And
I have to warn you, just this next video is graphic. After plowing into the crowd, the driver was then dragged out and beaten.
A police source tells us he was unconscious when rescued by firefighters. The taxi driver is now been hospitalized and police are investigating the
matter. Very, very chaotic.
Still to come, over 100 people are dead as violent protests in Iraq show no sign of stopping. We're going to take you live to Baghdad for the very
latest there. These protests come amid the constant uncertainty in the Middle East. This non-state players threatening to widen volatile risks.
We're going to take a look at the role of proxies up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAIDER ALWAHIDI, FAMILY MEMBER OF KILLED PROTESTER (through translator): He went out to defend his rights, nothing less and nothing more. It is an
obsolete nation, tired nation. A protester went out to defend his rights. He had nothing on him and was unarmed. They were received with snipers,
two headshots.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: A family member of a killed protester speaking there, one of many Iraqis dealing with the loss of a loved one. At least 100 people are
dead nearly 4,000 are injured over the past several days since violent protests erupted across Iraq this week. Unemployment, alleged corruption,
and a lack of basic services.
Our Senior International Correspondent Arwa Damon started her CNN career in Baghdad and has been leading our coverage of Iraq for more than eight
decades, joining me now from the city. Arwa, the details if you will.
[11:25:16]
ARWA DAMON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Becky, these protesters are saying that no matter what happens, they're not going to
leave the streets. Because as they put it, this the Iraq that we see today, with all of their demands as of yet being met an end to corruption,
addressing the lack of basic services, providing employment, that is not a legacy they want to leave for their children.
The Prime Minister has come out and has acknowledged the protesters' demands. He called them righteous. The government is trying to put
forward a reforms package that includes things from giving out loans, to creating job opportunities, to addressing various other issues that the
protesters do have.
But despite all of this, Becky, we're still seeing them attempting to take to the street despite all of the threats.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAMON: Is that all smoke from the tires? Yes, you can say that.
Security forces have been deployed across the capital roads are blocked, the internet is shut down, and media access is severely restricted.
All the fires are burning down there.
We want a country we can live in. It's been 16 years, this young man yells. I am a university graduate. He doesn't have work. Many of the
demonstrators are the country's young adults, among whom unemployment is especially high.
Another man here says he studied law. The only work he found is in a hair salon. He says he's been demonstrating for days.
His friend was just killed.
They shout over each other about the government's use of force. Their friends were killed in the demonstrations, the injustice. This man who
doesn't want his identity disclosed has been filming from the start.
This is the first day. You can see in the video all of it. There's nothing. He's saying like the people weren't attacking the security
forces. Our only weapon was to physically walk off the street so that the security forces couldn't advance.
The demonstrators' demands are not unreasonable, he says, end corruption, provide employment, and improve basic services. But the protests have gone
more violent, threatening this country's already fragile security. And the rising death toll has incensed those trying to take to the streets.
This video is from day three when there was still a curfew in place. It's really hard to look at because there is a man on the ground who has a head
wound. The audio of the gunfire is just constant.
A few minutes later another man is seen bleeding from a gunshot wound.
He says, all they want is to be heard. Stop the killing, he pleads. Listen to what they want. Send someone from the government to say I am
here to talk to you. What do you need? That's focal point for demonstrations surrounded by a ring of security. The capital is tense on
edge.
The government is calling for calm and has pledged to address the demonstrators' demand, promises the population has heard before. But
hollow words will no longer smother the people's rage.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
DAMON: And Becky, we're hearing the protesters voicing increasing growing concerns about what the government's intentions or even the armed forces
that exists here, they're out of the government's control.
The intentions may be when it comes to trying to silence the media and try to prevent the coverage of what is happening, protesters say that they
believe that that is one of the main reasons why the government has continued to keep the internet shut off across the swathes of the country.
Because once it does get shut, turned back on, there is going to be a flow of flood of videos that is going to end up out there.
Plus, there have been numerous attacks against the offices of media here. A number of local media offices were attacked by unknown masked men who
also attacked the offices of Saudi owned Al Arabiya. That network putting out a statement saying that unidentified gunmen wearing black balaclavas
formed into their office, beat up their staff, broke their equipment.
[11:29:56]
So, there's still a lot of concern out there and -- look, as we know only too well, Becky, this country stability is already so fragile. And quite
often, security situations escalate very quickly and very rarely, do they remain confined to the borders of just this country alone.
ANDERSON: Arwa Damon there for you. Well, there's a lot of political interference in Iraq, no doubt and it's not an isolated case as a lot of
meddling throughout the region.
Hezbollah's dominance squeezing Lebanon's economy feeling the impact from U.S. sanctions on the militia. And a remarkable week for American politics
as another is on the horizon. We look at the latest in the incredible saga that is the Trump impeachment inquiry.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: We'll get you back to our top story tonight. Speculation grows about a second whistleblower in the Trump impeachment process. The
president is as defiant as ever.
Donald Trump, tweeted, "The first so-called second-hand information whistleblower got my phone conversation almost completely wrong. So, now,
word is they are going to the bench and another whistleblower is coming in from the deep state," ending with, "Keep them coming."
And Mr. Trump has lashed out one of a few Republican voices to speak out. Saying, Senator Mitt Romney should himself be impeached. To Mr. Trump,
says his focus is now on combating corruption.
[11:34:58]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I don't care about Biden's campaign, but I do care about corruption. His campaign, that's up to him. Politics, that's up to them.
I don't care about politics. And if you look and you read our Constitution and many other things, we -- I have an obligation to look at corruption. I
have an actual obligation and a duty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: And to be absolutely clear, CNN has now confirmed that there is a second whistleblower. Somebody of the intelligence community and we are
told with firsthand knowledge.
Well, House Democrats pushing ahead regardless with -- regardless of what the president says with a subpoena of the White House and a request for
documents from Vice President Mike Pence has until Tuesday to produce those.
So far, all he has been producing is what sounds like Republican talking points. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Do nothing Democrats launched a partisan impeachment inquiry in a blatant attempt to overturn
the will of the American people in the last election.
But I think you all see through -- the American people see-through. And I'll make you promise, whatever the Democrats and their allies in the media
want to spend their time doing, President Donald Trump and I are never going to stop fighting for the agenda that Louisiana voted for in 2016.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: That's Mike Pence. Let's talk more about the vice president. I want to speak to Tom LoBianco, who is the author of Piety and Power: Mike
Pence and the Taking of the White House.
Tom is in Washington. And as I understand it, the vice president wouldn't be interviewed for this book. But Tom, your extensive research and
knowledge of Mike Pence reveals the political rise of a man whose faith was and certainly probably is still essential tenet.
But, quote, a man with top principled, you say, kept slipping away, clouded by his ambition and political maneuvering. Who is Mike Pence? And as
impeachment clouds gather, does his position to you seem in peril?
TOM LOBIANCO, AUTHOR, PIETY AND POWER: Yes, and this became clear to me. And thanks for having me on, Becky. This became clear to me as I reported
this book in a way that I had not seen during my time covering him day-to- day is that he's really focused on winning the White House in his own, right?
And I think even -- you know, even with this impeachment clouds starting to drag him into this, you know, look, we saw the House Democrats issue a
request for documents -- don't know if they'll turn into a subpoena, but it sure sounds like it might.
We saw that you -- even with that they're still focused dead ahead, look at the difference in talking points between Trump who's had back and forth on
whether or not he wants people to investigate Biden directly versus Pence, who's very steady. And this is -- this is how he operates. He has done
this throughout his career.
ANDERSON: I was really -- I am fascinated by a quote in your book. The president saying to Mike Pence, in the run-up to him choosing a running
mate. "I need killers, I want somebody to fight Chris Christie calls me nothing stop about this job. He calls me every 10 seconds. He do anything
for this job. He is dying to be vice president. And you, it's like you don't care. I need killers. Do you want this thing or not?"
Tom, can you give me the context to that conversation?
LOBIANCO: Yes.
ANDERSON: And whether the president really genuinely believes he's got a killer on these books.
LOBIANCO: We, we report -- I report this for the first time in the book. This meeting that happened on is Wednesday, July 13th, 2016 at the
governor's mansion in Indianapolis between Mike Pence and Donald Trump.
And this is brass tacks time. And this is really what it creates the opening for Mike Pence to become his running mate. Because remember before
this, Trump didn't like him, Trump thought he was a loser. He didn't -- he wasn't very into Pence. He was more of a fan of Chris Christie. And Jared
Kushner and Ivanka Trump really like Newt Gingrich. So, Pence is at the bottom of the pack.
You know what happens in this meeting is that Pence responds to that by saying, I don't need this. He says, I'm going to run for reelection, I'll
be fine. If you want to kill her, take somebody else and I will support you in that -- in that person.
And this really catches Trump off-guard. It kind of shows that this guy has got some stones in a way that he hadn't expected. And I will just say
this, I don't want to give away everything just yet, but he -- this opens the door for Mike Pence, but it does not seal the deal. This is the start
of how Mike Pence becomes the running mate and ultimately vice president.
[11:40:06]
ANDERSON: Look, you know, the spoiler alert here. Because I know that you, you know, you want people to read the book, of course. But it is
important. You know, just as Donald Trump wasn't as you point out interested or particularly enamored by Mike Pence ahead of this decision.
Did Mike Pence want the job? I mean, he -- as far as I understand it, he wanted to run -- he wanted to run in 2020, wasn't that the plan himself? I
mean, why didn't take the job as vice president?
LOBIANCO: It was brilliant politically in the moment, because if you think about it, everyone's assumption, at least, you know, on that side of things
is that Trump is going to lose.
So, the political calculation that goes into this, and this is based on my reporting. Remember that Pence's people -- I'd heard stories about this
before started working on the book, but I didn't really nail it down until over the last two years of research for this.
Pence's people were going around trying to line up Republican donors during the 2016 campaign, telling them, get on board or early for Mike Pence's
2020 run because Trump is invariably going to lose, and Pence will be catapulted towards the front of the pack in -- for the Republican
nomination. So, yes, every -- all plans were Trump loses, Pence wins.
ANDERSON: So, Mike Pence, pretty defiant over this impeachment inquiry. Back in 2008, you seemed quite judicious when it came to due process. Have
a listen to this. I want our viewers, you, is to hear the same.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: This business of high crimes and misdemeanors goes to the question of, of whether or not the person serving as president of the United States
put their own interests -- their personal interests ahead of public service.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Fast forward to 2019 and now. Tom, given what you know about the vice-president, what will be his calculation at this point? Do you
think he'll provide these documents that he's been speeding to provide by Tuesday? And what happens next? What's going on in his mind at this
point?
LOBIANCO: You know, the Mike Pence from 2008 that we just heard is the -- is the one who I heard the most when I was covering him before he joined up
with Trump. Someone who had often talked about the rule of law, no man is above the law, this is -- you know, then, that sort of a very -- rooted in
the Constitution.
And that changed when he joined Trump. And ever since he joined Trump in July of 2016, he's been aligned with him completely. So, to the answer of
-- you know, whether he turns over these documents? I suspect they get into a showdown over this.
There is no reason he would turn anything over. He is attached at the hip to Trump and he can't move. He could -- for -- you know, for political
reasons as much as anything.
ANDERSON: Very briefly, it's where you see Mike Pence without his wife. I know she is forced to be reckoned with when it comes to the Trump family as
it were. What does she think of Donald Trump?
LOBIANCO: All my reporting is that Karen Pence is not a big fan of Trump. But let me -- let me point out something I think folks get wrong about her.
And this is certainly something I got wrong before I started reporting on the book.
She's not -- it's not sort of a moralist shrew type stance on things. It's more about the political calculation. Remember, they have a joint
political career. Mike Pence has forged -- is front-facing on that. But she is as involved in it as he is, and I think her consternation comes more
from the political calculations than anything else.
ANDERSON: Fascinating. Tom, its pleasure having you on. The books are jolly good to read. Thank you on an important read on what is a clearly an
important period of American history. Thank you.
Still to come, war by proxy. The non-state players backing Iran and how they're growing footprints are shaping regional conflicts? That is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:46:30]
ANDERSON: Welcome back. The Middle East where we are. A region entangled by volatile rifts and ardent rhetoric. From the Houthis to Hezbollah, non-
state players rocking this region's balance of power. All the while a changing world order raises new questions about who's pulling the strings.
While little appetite is being shown for a new regional war which, of course, is a good thing. Each skirmish increases the risk of potential
escalation. Well, Lebanon's already weak economy feeling the brunt of U.S.-Iran tensions with the United States slapping sanctions on the Iranian
backed Hezbollah.
CNN senior international correspondent Ben Wedeman with this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The centerpiece of the museum on a mountaintop in south Lebanon are the rusting hoax of
Israel's army of occupation. Driven out of Lebanon 19 years ago by Hezbollah after a long guerilla war.
This was once a Hezbollah base complete with a network of tunnels. Now, a showcase for tourists come to marvel at the exploits of the only military
force that succeeded at driving the Israelis out of Arab land.
Hezbollah played a major role alongside the Lebanese army in the fight against ISIS feared and sent thousands of fighters to shore up the Syrian
government. The group also boasts an arsenal of tens of thousands of rockets supplied by Iran.
On display are the drones, Hezbollah used in its 2006 war with Israel. Drones increasingly the weapon of choice in the shadow war now raging in
the Middle East.
The underlying message of this museum is that Hezbollah is a fighting force with decades of experience. It fought the Israelis, is fighting in Syria,
and if called upon, is ready to fight on behalf of its main ally, Iran.
The so-called, Axis of Resistance: Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Shia militias in Iraq, and the Houthis in Yemen are girding for a regional confrontation.
"We reject any war on the Islamic Republic of Iran because war will ignite the region and because such a war will destroy countries and peoples,"
declared Hezbollah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah in a recent speech. "It will be a war on the entire Axis of Resistance."
Every year, tens of thousands of Shia participate in the Ashura procession in Beirut, commemorating the murder of Hussein, the grandson of the Prophet
Mohammed at the hands of what at the time were the rulers of the Arab Empire.
It's an important show of support for Hezbollah at a time when the Trump administration's policy of maximum pressure on Iran and his allies is
starting to hurt. The U.S. and the European Union classify Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. Slapped with mounting American sanctions,
Hezbollah is short of funds and has had to cut salaries and scale back its social support networks.
While acknowledging sanctions are biting, Hezbollah Member of Parliament Ibrahim Mousawi insists the group will weather the storm.
[11:50:03]
IBRAHIM MOUSAWI, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT, HEZBOLLAH: This is a long line in history that we have always been under different multi-facet kinds of
pressures, sanctions, sieges, and whatever. We will be patient and I can assure you will not drop our course, we will adhere and we will embrace it
more and more.
And I believe America is not in a position to continue this. No matter how high they might go in their pressure, the cause will continue and we will
emerge victorious in shaa Allah
WEDEMAN: But the American sanctions go beyond Hezbollah, they're hurting Lebanon, says Mohanad Hage Ali of the Carnegie Middle East Center.
MOHANAD HAGE ALI, DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS, CARNEGIE MIDDLE EAST CENTER: And the U.S. is not helping in the process. It's pushing the Lebanese
economy to the brink with sanctions -- for the threats of sanctions.
Every six months, the whole country is awaiting the new set of sanctions and seeing how dangerous they could be. There's no clarity on the U.S.
side.
WEDEMAN: These are uncertain times in Lebanon. In addition to the threat of regional war, the economy is sputtering and tensions with Israel are
high.
The Lebanese defense minister recently displayed one of the two drones presumed to be Israeli, which crashed in to Beirut's predominantly Shia
southern suburbs in late August.
Hezbollah vowed revenge of with later, its fighters fired two anti-tank missiles across the border at an Israeli army vehicle. Video of the attack
broadcast on the group's television channel.
Israel fired back, setting fields along the border on fire. In the entire flare-up, no one was killed, calm returned. It may however, be the calm
before the storm.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Well, Ben Wedeman, joining me now. Ben, Iran's playbook here isn't new in seeking to expand its Shiite influence post the '79
revolution. Tehran has sought to empower groups around this Middle East region.
The headlines from Yemen to Syria to Iraq and Lebanon suggest these non- state actors are increasingly significant, are they?
WEDEMAN: Oh, they are. All you'll have to do is look at the current sort of setup of the Middle East. You have Hezbollah in Lebanon, you have the
government of Syria, which has been a close ally of Iran since the 1979 Islamic Revolution. You have the Hashd al-Shaabi or the Popular
Mobilization Units in Iraq, which show have been trained and supplied by Iran. And you have the Houthis.
They essentially surround Saudi Arabia and what we've seen in the last few weeks is that Saudi Arabia has lost half of its oil production and is now
apparently ready to open talks with Iran largely the result of Iran's in a sense outsmarting not only Saudi Arabia but the United States.
So, the advantages are quite obvious. There are disadvantages when things go south in the countries where Iran is involved. Like Lebanon where we
see the economy slowly falling apart, like Iraq where you see this huge unrest going on. Many people are blaming Iran partially for those problem.
So, but it's sort of the total pluses and minuses, the pluses are far more than the minuses at the moment. Becky?
ANDERSON: Yes, fascinating stuff. And on a conversation that we will and continue, an extremely important one around this region. Ben, it was a
pleasure. Thank you.
Just time for a quick break. We'll be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:55:56]
ANDERSON: Right, yes. Just in time tonight of your parting shots. Simone Biles is already considered a gymnastics legend. Well, now, she is getting
her name enshrined in the sports very terminology.
During a floor routine, the U.S. star landed a jaw-dropping double backflip with three twists, and she made it look like a walk in the park as she
competed in Saturday's World Championships in Germany.
And these latest moves are so revolutionary, they are going to be named after her. And it'll take political gymnastics of all kinds to solve the
problems that we've been covering for you over the past two hours. Not least of which in Washington.
I'll be back same time tomorrow for going out of the -- thank you for getting out of the gate with us this week, though, here on Sunday. I'm
Becky Anderson. That was CONNECT THE WORLD. See you next time.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
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