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John Bolton is No-Show, Republicans Defend Trump; Macron Warns of NATO "Brain Death" as U.S. Turns Its Back; Turkish Incursion in Syria; Pence Aide Appears before Investigators, Top Diplomats to Testify Next Week; Congolese General Given Record Prison Sentence; Dispute over the Nile; Women Take Charge in Lebanon Protests. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired November 07, 2019 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Live from CNN Abu Dhabi, this is CONNECT THE WORLD with Becky Anderson.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST (voice-over): New testimony underway right now on Capitol Hill in the impeachment inquiry: this time it's from a witness
from vice president Mike Pence's office.
Also, France's president warns that NATO is at risk of "brain death."
And my exclusive interview with the Turkish defense minister.
Hello and welcome. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD with me, Becky Anderson.
By all indications, there is an empty chair today in the U.S. House impeachment inquiry. That seat is being saved for John Bolton, the U.S.
president's former national security adviser.
He was scheduled to testify behind closed doors today but he's apparently a no-show. He's important to Democrats because he raised concerns about the
president and Ukraine. So they are anxious to find out what he knows.
Someone who did show up was Jennifer Williams. She's a senior adviser to vice president Mike Pence, one of his inner circle, who was on that now
infamous July 25th call between president Donald Trump and Ukraine's leader.
A source says she was concerned by what she heard but there is no indication she raised a red flag to her superiors. We have Joe Johns at
the White House but, first, Suzanne Malveaux joins us from Capitol Hill.
As we move toward a week when the public will actually get to hear from those who are testifying, how would you describe the building of this case
against the U.S. president at this point?
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN U.S. CORRESPONDENT: Well, Becky, what you have, what the Democrats are certainly very confident about is they have at least
seven witnesses who have testified behind closed doors that they feel have laid out a picture that is very consistent of a quid pro quo, that there
weren't conditions for this aid, for holding up this aid to Ukraine, that that was a meeting with the president and an explicit statement that there
would be investigations of a political nature with the Bidens and the election of 2016.
So they say what they have seen and heard of the last several weeks is many different layers, pieces of the story being put together, almost like a
puzzle that has fit quite nicely.
So they are projecting a sense of confidence. What we're seeing from the Republicans is very much a change, a shift, if you will, in how they're
feeling about this. Initially, it was all about the process, complaining about the process not being fair. Now they're having to digest some of
what has come out of these transcriptions.
And in some ways, they are saying certain witnesses that have exculpatory evidence, that they believe, for the president, are more credible than
those presenting a damning picture, if you will.
You have others like senator Lindsey Graham, a top ally of the president, refusing to read the transcripts at all and also saying the White House was
inept in even conducting a quid pro quo.
And then once again -- and this has been very consistent, however, Becky-- is the call for the whistleblower to be unmasked, to be outed. We heard
from representative Jim Jordan earlier this morning, talking to reporters, telling us they, in fact, will formally request that whistleblower come
before the public and testify publicly. That is part of the process. They are allowed to do that.
But it would also take approval of the Democrats and, most notably, the chair, Adam Schiff, to say that's OK. So it's a nonstarter, really.
At the same time, you do have a lot of people feeling anxious about this and also some hostility, outright hostility towards the whistleblower.
We've heard the tweets, seen the tweets from the president, as we gear up for this new phase, this very public phase that's going to begin next week,
Becky.
ANDERSON: I want to hear from senator Kennedy, Joe, just before you and I speak. This is the way that we are now being fed, as it were, the
Republican defense. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R-LA): And you know what our Democratic friends have done for him?
Speaker Nancy Pelosi is trying to impeach him. I don't mean any disrespect but it must suck to be that dumb.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: That's quite some language, Joe.
[11:05:00]
ANDERSON: Republicans bending over backwards, it seems, to defend President Trump. Perhaps you would expect that.
But what about this from Trump defender Lindsey Graham?
JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Graham is a very interesting study over the last several years of his career, how he started
out as a critic of Donald Trump and now is one of the biggest defenders in the United States Congress of Donald Trump.
Fascinating, certainly, over the last 24 hours where Lindsey Graham has essentially said, look, I don't even need to read the transcripts.
That, too, is sort of a diversion from something he said earlier, when he said he needed to see proof of any wrongdoing by the president,
specifically a quid pro quo.
So he, like some others in the United States Congress on the Republican side, have been essentially engaged in a splatter strategy, of throwing
things against the wall to see what sticks.
So far the effort, certainly among the Democrats, hasn't been very helpful. If you look at the polls, those polls tend to indicate that the American
public, as they hear more, gets more and more interested in moving this impeachment inquiry forward. Back to you.
ANDERSON: Rudy Giuliani front and center in much of what we are hearing, Joe. He has been name checked hundreds of times during this inquiry to
date.
Where does he stand at this point?
I mean, are we going to see him?
JOHNS: Anybody's guess. Giuliani has said before that he'd like to testify on Capitol Hill on these matters but that it ought to be left up to
his client, who is the president of the United States.
Of course, the president of the United States has been reluctant to have anybody connected with him cooperating with this inquiry. So the question
would be on what grounds would Giuliani not testify if he were subpoenaed. That gets down to privilege.
The president really can't use executive privilege because that is something that involves employees of the United States government at the
very least. The question of attorney-client privilege comes up. That doesn't sound very useful, either, because you can't really use it if the
client as well as the attorney have discussed private matters publicly.
So I suppose that leaves you with the privilege against self-incrimination, which is something a former United States attorney, a top prosecutor in New
York, would certainly not like to invoke in front of the world. It's a tough place for Giuliani but not clear at all that he's going to testify.
ANDERSON: Yes, fascinating. All right. Well, as we close up, begin to close out this week, we look forward to a week, next week, when we'll
actually see, as a general watching public, as it were, get more of a sense of what's going on as these hearings do become public. Thank you to both
of you.
Well, French president Emmanuel Macron warns NATO is facing a "brain death" as the U.S. turns its back on the military alliance. In an interview with
"The Economist" published today, he said, and I quote, "We find ourselves for the first time with an American president who doesn't share our idea of
the European project and American policy is diverging from this project."
Chief international anchor Christiane Amanpour joining me now from London. Why now?
Why would he make these remarks now, do you think?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Becky, very good question. I see this was conducted two weeks ago. Why they're publishing it only now is beyond me.
But nonetheless, it's clearly making a few headlines.
The fact of the matter is that Macron, I think, is using that idea or that phrase, "brain death," literally because for him, the brain is the head of
the organization, the command structure in political and strategic ways.
And he's saying that because of the United States, because of the out-and- out full-frontal assault by the president of the United States on the principle of NATO since the beginning, since before he was even elected, it
has had a terrible effect.
While what we're seeing, fast forward, all these years later, he said, is an operation by an aggressive NATO member, Turkey, in an area where we
other NATO members have interests, i.e. Syria and our Kurdish allies there, sanctioned if not green-lit by the prime NATO leader, that is the United
States, without any coordination, total unilateral action.
[11:10:00]
AMANPOUR: So that is, he's saying, very, very worrying. And he mentioned, of course, as we know, that here in December in Britain, there will be an
annual NATO meeting. He says, look, we don't question the fact that our armies all work very well on the ground. There's no problem with command
on the ground in terms of operations.
But when it comes to the strategy and the political rationale for NATO, without the United States being one amongst us all and being there in the
driving seat, we don't have that head anymore, that joint command structure.
ANDERSON: Donald Trump has a long history of lashing out at NATO, going back even before he became U.S. president. I want our viewers just to hear
a couple of examples from him. Stand by.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Number one, NATO is obsolete. And number two, the people aren't paying their way. It's obsolete and we pay too much money. NATO, we're
going to have the people that aren't paying, they're going to start paying. It's obsolete. We're getting ripped in NATO. They don't pay their bills.
They are delinquent. NATO is obsolete and has to be rejiggered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: By making these comments to the economist now, you get the sense that president Macron is only just waking up to the reality, which seems
odd to me.
AMANPOUR: Actually, I have a different interpretation. I think he's only been elected since President Trump and before that Chancellor Merkel and
others. When President Trump was elected, they all immediately wondered what would happen in a world where America, you know, as sort of put forth
by him, was no longer prepared to take the lion's share of the burden.
And he, as we now call it, started this sort of transactional relationship with the world, including with allies. And this has troubled allies and
troubled many in the United States' security and diplomacy and national security community because that's not what alliances are all about.
They're not about transactions. They're about mutual and joint responsibilities and interests and values.
So that was very clear from the very beginning. But I think what is interesting now in retrospect is to hear what he was saying back then,
Trump, that, you know, NATO is obsolete.
Well, if the leading member, if you like, because it is the United States, it has the biggest army in the world and pays the biggest amount of GDP
into NATO, if that nation keeps saying that it's obsolete, keeps saying it's delinquent, acts in a way to fulfill that, then it becomes a self-
fulfilling prophesy.
So that is probably what Macron is reacting to right now. On the issue of Trump's constant mantra about how others should be paying in, all those
countries agree that they should be paying more. Many of them have stepped up.
The deadline, by the way, is down the line. It's not right now. And the contract to get them to step up their payments was made under the Obama
administration in a NATO meeting in Wales. I think it was in 2014, something like that.
But it is worrying because the truth is and the facts are that America is not backing up its natural tendencies as a leader and an alliance leader in
the Western alliance.
ANDERSON: Christiane, we led this out with the impeachment inquiry, which is focusing on whether Donald Trump withheld military aid to Ukraine in
return for dirt on political opponent Joe Biden. His defense, Mr. Trump's defense is that money was withheld out of frustration that European nations
are not doing their bit, a familiar refrain from the U.S. president, of course, when it comes to funding for NATO.
The thread here seems to be that Donald Trump's behavior, quite frankly, a gift to Russia.
Would you agree?
AMANPOUR: Well, I mean, it is to an extent but the fact of that matter is that was just pulled out of a hat because the European Union have been
incredibly forthcoming with money and help and support to Ukraine. That was one of the big issues that caused the rupture between then Ukrainian
president and Putin.
Putin decided to move on into the Ukraine area because the people were getting closer and closer to the E.U. and the E.U. was giving a lot of help
monetarily and politically and in all other ways to Ukraine. So that's just a nonstarter.
And you know, because you've just had that conversation, that many witnesses already behind closed doors have spoken to that quid pro quo and
many say, all you need to do is listen to the transcript.
In terms of is it a boon to Putin, very interestingly, I will have a segment on my program later this evening, which asks that very question of
somebody who knows.
[11:15:00]
AMANPOUR: That's Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the richest man in Russia, he was the head of an oil company, Yukos. He was then imprisoned on what
everybody agrees were trumped-up charges. Now he's an opponent.
He says actually a lot of the awful stuff that happened in the Soviet Union is still happening under Putin to an extent. There's no political space.
Moscow may be a bright, shiny jewel but many of the hinterland towns, villages and provinces are still laboring under terrible, you know, poverty
and are not very advanced.
He says that Putin -- and this is key -- Putin looks smart and looks like he's winning and, in fact, is in some places like Syria. In comparison to
the weak leadership we see around us in the West right now.
But if you, he says, measure Putin to a Margaret Thatcher or a Ronald Reagan, again, in his words, you would see that Putin is, in fact, not
strong but weak. And that point was also reinforced by a former U.K. ambassador, who said to me, all Putin's actions show that, in fact, he's
not that strong but that he's actually quite weak. Interesting.
ANDERSON: Fascinating. All right. Well, there's a promo for your show and good for you, Christiane.
Her show a couple hours from now.
Thank you for that. Fascinating insight.
AMANPOUR: Thank you.
ANDERSON: Going to get you an update, viewers, on another story that we, of course, are following extremely closely for you here on CONNECT THE
WORLD.
With the funerals for the nine family members murdered in Mexico about to start, we are getting new audio messages, shared between the family, as
they learned what happened. The victims gunned down in an horrific massacre near the U.S.-Mexico border on Monday.
The person speaking here is Kendra Lee Miller, one of the family members. The audio we received is Miller's portion of the conversation only. The
other parts of the conversation not included here.
This took place in the hours after the incident as family members frantically tried to find out what had happened and relay information to
their families stateside. I'm afraid some of what we're about to play you may find disturbing.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
KENDRA LEE MILLER, VICTIMS' RELATIVE: Dear God, everybody, pray. Officers just came and said my mom's Suburban is blown up, up on the -- by the hill.
Everyone please pray.
Nita, her children are gone. They've been burned inside the vehicle. Uncle Jeff verified, counted all five bodies. Their bones are burned,
their bodies are burned to a crisp. Dear God, pray for us all.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Eight children survived the attack. Among them, a 7-month-old baby girl here named Faith. She was found unhurt in the back seat of the
car, hidden there by her mother before she was murdered. Investigators are still trying to determine who is behind the carnage and why.
Still to come tonight, Kurdish forces have not withdrawn from northern Syria, according to the Turkish president. Next, I speak to Mr. Erdogan's
defense minister. That exclusive interview coming right up.
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[11:20:00]
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ANDERSON: Turkey's president, Mr. Erdogan, says "terror groups" have not withdrawn from northern Syria two weeks after Russian boots arrived on the
ground. He is, of course, referring to Kurdish forces, who Turkey sees as terrorists. Alongside, Russia is working to push them out of the so-called
safe zone.
Mr. Erdogan accused Kurdish militia of violating the cease-fire, saying they are still attacking Turkey-backed Syrian forces.
Well, meanwhile, President Erdogan also saying Turkey will decide the fate of al-Baghdadi's captured family members. Turkey yesterday announcing it
had detained the former ISIS leader's wife and sister. Let's connect you right to the center of this story.
Commanding NATO's second biggest military, my next guest is Turkey's defense minister. I spoke to him exclusively, first asking where the
operation just south of the Turkish border in Syria stands, nearly one month since the incursion began.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HULUSI AKAR, TURKISH DEFENSE MINISTER (from captions): First of all, we have every respect for the political unity and territorial integrity of
Syria and all our neighboring countries. This is a very important point, when we are doing this, never ever are we making any invasion, occupation
or incursion or something else.
We are just carrying out the operation.
Both sides, the U.S. and the Russian sides, agreed to remove the YPG from those areas. Both within the area of operation and then at the same time
from the east and the west of the operation areas. But still there are lots of violations committed by the YPG terrorists. So we are fighting
against them, and then at the same time in coordination with the Russians and Americans, asking them, requesting them to, how do you say, remove from
the areas.
ANDERSON: Sir, you are the Turkish defense minister. I want you to respond to the allegations of war crimes by Turkish-backed Syrian forces.
Ibrahim Kalin (ph), the presidential spokesman, told me allegations will be thoroughly investigated.
Is that true?
Are you investigating these allegations of torture?
AKAR (from captions): Very shortly, yes, of course.
ANDERSON: Who are these forces backed by Turkey?
And can you categorically say they do not have links to ISIS and Al Qaeda?
AKAR (from captions): Yes, of course, there is no linkage between them and any other terrorist organization. They are totally entirely Syrian people,
they are fighting for their independence, for their territory, for their homes.
ANDERSON: You are the former chief of general staff and current defense minister of NATO's second biggest army.
Is Turkey's rapprochement with Russia, the agreement on the border, the purchase of S-400s, is this a move away from the NATO alliance and/or the
West?
AKAR (from captions): We are, you know, in the middle of NATO. We are fulfilling all our responsibilities, either within operations, let's say
Afghanistan, or within exercises. But necessarily for the problems in the north in Syria, there are some problems in the region. And in order to
resolve them and in order to take some precautions against them, we are making some cooperation, coordination with some nation and at the same time
we are doing with the Russians.
ANDERSON: Did Turkey know about al-Baghdadi's presence in the area and, if not, as defense minister, do you see that as a failing of Turkish
intelligence?
AKAR (from captions): Before the operation, military-to-military, we had the exchange of some information. And at the same time, our guys had
coordination.
[11:25:00]
AKAR (from captions): In addition to all those activities, our people, through the chain of command, we warned our troops in the ground not to
make any harm in ongoing operation.
ANDERSON: Do you believe your NATO ally, the U.S., trusts you?
After all they didn't fill Turkey in on all of the details of the operation to hunt down Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the ISIS leader?
Secondly, sir, did Turkey know about his whereabouts?
AKAR (from captions): We had some information military-to-military before the operation. At the same time, the military people coordinated among
themselves. We wanted our troops not to cause any confliction.
On the other hand, between our intel agencies there is very close cooperation and I believe they cooperated and coordinated with the
information as well. But before that, before that operation, at least I didn't know that.
ANDERSON: What is Turkey expecting to get from the U.S. president?
AKAR (from captions): Just the exchange of information and then, if we have a common basis, everything will be much, much easier to resolve with
all those problems.
ANDERSON: Are you concerned that Idlib has turned into a safe haven for ISIS rebels?
AKAR (from captions): Becky, it is not true, it is impossible. We are there, we are fighting in every sense against all terrorist organizations
and terrorist individuals. In coordination with the Russians we are doing something.
At the same time individually, as Turkey, we are doing a lot of things against the neutralization of the terrorist organization and the people.
So far, fortunately, we have stopped many of those events against the innocent people in Idlib, against Turkey or someone else. This struggle
continues incessantly and we will continue until the end.
ANDERSON: Sir, the end game, as far as I understand it, for Turkey in Syria, is to return 3.5 million Syrian refugees to the safe zone. Mr.
Erdogan has proposed building 10 towns in that safe zone, using international money to cover the cost, some $26 billion.
Where will that money come from?
Is it clear?
AKAR (from captions): We need a safe zone in the north of Syria to bring back the refugees, mostly who are in Turkey or somewhere else, to their
homes and their lands voluntarily and safely. And this is what we are trying to do, number one.
And at the same time of course to build new houses to support them with humanitarian assistance. Of course, we need some financial support.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Didn't specifically say from where though, did he?
The Turkish defense minister speaking to me there in an exclusive interview.
Now President Trump has confirmed President Erdogan's visit to Washington. Mr. Trump is being quick to express his admiration for Mr. Erdogan,
referring recently to the Turkish president as "a friend of mine."
Ironically, that, quote, "friendship," only helping to further complicate already fractious U.S.-Turkey relations. Last week the U.S. House passed
a far-reaching sanctions bill against Turkey over its operation in Syria.
It also overwhelmingly passed a resolution recognizing the Armenian genocide. Some American politicians have drawn a clear line between that
event and what Turkey is doing today. This is what U.S. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: The barbarism committed against the Armenian people was a genocide. If we ignore history, then we are
destined to witness the mistakes of the past be repeated. The recent attacks by the Turkish military against the Kurdish people are a stark and
brutal reminder of the danger in our own time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: We are days away from the public impeachment hearings in the U.S. Congress but for now, one of the key players was apparently a no-show
at the closed-door hearings. Who showed up and who didn't, up next.
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[11:30:00]
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ANDERSON: Now back to our top story for you, the U.S. presidential impeachment inquiry. Congressional investigators have been hearing closed-
door testimony from Jennifer Williams, an aide to vice president Mike Pence. Williams reportedly listened in on president Donald Trump's July
25th phone call with the president of Ukraine.
Investigators had hoped also to hear today from the former national security adviser, John Bolton, but he apparently skipped the session.
Let's bring in CNN's legal analyst Elie Honig.
Will he be forced to attend at some point?
ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So the big question is does Congress take the next step here and issue a subpoena to John Bolton, which is supposed
to be mandatory?
However, what's been happening throughout this case, Becky, is people have been receiving subpoenas and then, by and large, not all but mostly, have
been just ignoring them. Then the ball sort of goes back to Congress' side of the court.
Congress has to decide, now do I take these people to court and try to win a lawsuit and compel them to come in?
The problem with that, though, is it takes months to do that. I don't think Congress has months to go through that battle.
ANDERSON: We are beginning to get the drip feed of these testimonies that have been made in closed-door sessions. We expect to get public hearings
next week.
As you digest where we are to date, how strong is this case?
HONIG: I think it's a very strong case. It's a case I'd absolutely be comfortable with as a prosecutor or an investigator. To me, the case has
sort of three main pillars. Number one, Exhibit A has to be the call itself, the July 25th Trump-Zelensky call. I think that call is really
damaging to Trump.
[11:35:00]
HONIG: It's his own words. I think right there you can see him laying out the deal.
Part two of the case is the text we saw between the key diplomats and others, including Rudy Giuliani, who were making this deal happen. You see
them talking about how there's this quid pro quo, although you don't need a quid pro quo, it certainly strengthens the case.
But they're talking about the deal is, we want to get Ukraine to do these investigations of the Bidens and of the DNC.
The third pillar is the witnesses that we've heard from. And the ones who have come forward, I think, have been very credible, very consistent. I'm
talking about Bill Taylor and Col. Vindman and Marie Yovanovitch and Fiona Hill. These are all career military and diplomatic officials, nonpartisan
folks who are telling a very consistent story.
So I'd feel comfortable putting that case out there.
ANDERSON: All right.
Finally then, what do you make of the White House's defense or Donald Trump's defense at this point?
It's a sort of movable feast, to a certain extent. Explain where you think we are at and how strong that case is.
HONIG: Let's see, what day is it?
The defenses shift seemingly by the day, by the hour or by the Trump tweet. I think one of the big decisions they've apparently made is not to have a
centralized, coherent defense. If you look back at Bill Clinton, he had a legal team, they were in place, they very carefully managed the message.
The defense here has moved from there's nothing wrong, it was a perfect call, to there was no quid pro quo, to, if there was a quid pro quo, it's
not impeachable, to Lindsey Graham apparently just throwing your hands up and say, what are you going to do?
Ultimately, they've been all over the map. I don't know where they're going to settle. I think the most effective -- ultimately the most
effective defense is just he did what he did, it may have been a mistake but it's not impeachable.
All they have to do to get through this is keep the Republican majority in the Senate, keep people from defecting out of that.
ANDERSON: Always a pleasure, sir. Thank you. Another busy day in a busy week. It's been a busy month in Washington with this impeachment inquiry.
Well, a former Congolese general and rebel leader known as "The Terminator" has been given the longest sentence ever handed down by the International
Criminal Court. He was convicted of war crimes and crimes against humanity, including murder, sexual slavery and using child soldiers
between 2002 and 2003.
Joining me via Skype, the prosecution's senior trial lawyer, Nicole Samson.
Rape, murder, child soldiers, sexual slavery: just give us a sense of the magnitude of the crimes here and the significance of this conviction, if
you will.
NICOLE SAMSON, ATTORNEY: Well, Becky, thank you for the question. The magnitude of the crimes in this case is extreme. The chamber found there
were multiple victims of murder, attempted murder, rape, sexual slavery, as you mentioned. They quantified a number.
They also said a number were not quantifiable but that he was nonetheless responsible for even those acts.
And what it means, I think, for victims, is tremendous. It means that a chamber has recognized and acknowledged the harm that they suffered over an
extended period of time and an extended geographical area. So it's a big day for us and a big day for victims.
ANDERSON: Speaking ahead of the verdict, a member of the Lendu (ph) community was specifically targeted, according to the ICC, saying, and I
quote, "We would like the ICC to ensure that the victims of these crimes have their rights restored, not compensated, for the crimes committed."
Does the judgment of the ICC translate into a real sense of justice on the ground for these victims who, of course, can be thousands of miles away?
SAMSON: I think it does. It's the first time for them that they will have any sense of justice for the crimes that were committed against them and
their communities. It means that he has been found responsible.
So to a large extent, that's a big, big deal for them. Now when it comes to reparations and compensation, these are avenues and measures that will
be explored down the line, further to a conviction on the merits.
ANDERSON: According to "The Guardian" newspaper, he told the court he was, and I quote, "at peace with myself. I hope that you now realize "The
Terminator" described by the prosecutor is not me."
[11:40:00]
ANDERSON: That is a staggering statement.
Do people convicted at the ICC often show any remorse?
And does this conviction act as a deterrent, do you think?
SAMSON: Well, I think that accused persons and convicted persons here can and should show remorse and take responsibility for the crimes that they've
been convicted of.
Now he is in an appeal process. He has appealed or at least started the process on the conviction and he has 30 days still to appeal his current
sentence. Sentences at the ICC are intended to deter him or other people from committing crimes.
I think this decision, an extremely high sentence of 30 years, should give other potential perpetrators cause to pause and consider that they will not
be immune from justice should they continue.
(CROSSTALK)
ANDERSON: Sure and I ask that question because, let's admit, this is the longest ever sentence after a string of failures to convict recently at the
ICC.
So just finally, how important is this case?
SAMSON: It's very important. It's important to us here at the ICC. It's important to the international community. It's important for the world to
know that we are capable of rendering justice fairly and efficiently. And that for persons who commit crimes, they will not go unpunished. It shows
we have a real place and a real meaningful role in international justice.
ANDERSON: With that, we're going to leave it there. We thank you very much indeed for making the time for us here on CONNECT THE WORLD.
It is 20 to 9:00, folks. We are out of the UAE. This is our Middle East broadcasting hub and you are watching CONNECT THE WORLD.
Still ahead, the U.S. president invited representatives from three African nations to the White House this week. The dispute he is trying to resolve
over a massive dam under construction in Ethiopia. More on that after this.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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ANDERSON: Welcome back. If you are just joining us, you are more than welcome. We've been talking this hour about President Trump's impeachment
inquiry avalanche.
While he's been dealing with that at home, he's also trying to solve a massive dispute in the Nile, the River Nile.
The president inviting the countries involved, Ethiopia, Egypt and Sudan, to meet in Washington Wednesday to discuss facilitating negotiations over
the construction of a dam, tweeting, quote, "The meeting went well and discussions will continue during the day."
[11:45:00]
ANDERSON: Here's a breakdown of what is causing all of the tension.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: The Blue Nile has flowed down Ethiopia's highlands, enriching 11 countries along its banks for millennia. But now Ethiopians are looking to
reassert more control over the basin.
The $4 billion grand Ethiopian Renaissance Dam is a massive hydroelectric project extending along the Nile River, set to generate enough electricity
to power the entire region, some 6,000 megawatts.
But the dam, due to become operational in 2020, isn't sitting well with Ethiopia's downstream neighbors, Egypt and Sudan, who say the project could
threaten their greatest natural resource.
OMAR AL-BASHIR, THEN SUDANESE PRESIDENT (through translator): We want to ensure that Sudan and Egypt's portion of the Nile is 100 percent completely
preserved.
ANDERSON (voice-over): Ethiopia's prime minister had this to say.
ETHIOPIAN PRIME MINISTER: We agreed that we have a right to exploit all our natural resources in a very responsible manner.
ANDERSON (voice-over): The Trump administration invited the three countries to meet in Washington on Wednesday to discuss breaking the
deadlock in the negotiations over the dam. The president saying he wishes to help solve the long-running dispute.
But for Egypt, it's a ticking water time bomb. The country depends on the Nile for more than 90 percent of its fresh water needs and fears the dam
could restrict its already limited water supply.
Former Egyptian president Anwar Sadat once famously said, "The only matter that could take Egypt to war again is water."
However, all sides say they are committed to continue negotiating on the dam to prevent a water war.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: I want to bring in John Mukum Mbaku, who is professor of economics at Weber State University in Utah and who co-authored a book
titled, "Governing the Nile River Basin."
Sir, thank you for joining us. I just want to start by asking you why you believe that Donald Trump is involved in facilitating these negotiations.
Were you surprised by his involvement?
JOHN MUKUM MBAKU, WEBER STATE UNIVERSITY: Yes, I was quite surprised, primarily because, in the last three years of his administration, he's
shown very little interest in Africa. So many Africans and myself are really surprised that he's taken an interest in this particular issue.
And we are wondering whether he's doing so because of the domestic pressures he has at home and is looking for a way to win some -- to have
some international victory that may allow him to deter -- I mean, to improve his image at home.
ANDERSON: Well, or perhaps it's more transactional, which often is with Donald Trump. Perhaps he's witnessed the sort of Russian interest and
activity on the continent of late. Be that as it may, let's talk about this story specifically.
You have said, and I quote, "It is generally believed that Egypt received such favorable terms," referring to the water of the Nile, "during colonial
times because the country was very important to the United Kingdom's interests, particularly its cotton fields."
Explain what you mean because there's an awful lot going on here, isn't there?
MBAKU: Well, the thing is that if you look at the agreements that currently govern the Nile, you have two agreements. You have 1929, the
Egyptian treaty and in 1959 a treaty between Egypt and Sudan. You see that virtually, all of the waters of the Nile were allocated to those two
countries, Egypt and Sudan.
Ethiopia, which contributes more than 80 percent of the water flow into the Nile, was given absolutely no water. And the other countries did not have
any waters. Egypt did get treated favorably by those treaties.
ANDERSON: So this body of water, claimed by 11 countries, but the Ethiopian dam would, let's face it, affect Egypt the most. Have a listen
to what the United Nations' development program's representative in Egypt had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDA ABOUL-HOSN, UNITED NATIONS: If the Nile water drops, like I said before, any 2 percent drop of water affects 1 million people. So it's
really the more impoverished categories and the farmers, I think, that will be affected most.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:50:00]
ANDERSON: Agriculture a major component of the Egyptian economy. Water absolutely crucial and scarce.
Just how badly do you believe this dam could affect the Egyptian economy at this point?
MBAKU: Well, for one thing, the dam, the Ethiopian dam, once it starts filling, which is supposed to start next year, there will be a significant
impact on water flowing to the Aswan Dam. So two things happening in Egypt would be that the Egyptians may not be able to have as much water, fresh
water, as they had before.
They may not be able to generate as much electricity as they've done in the past. But I think that, rather than coming to Washington, I think the
Egyptians should try to repair their relationship with Ethiopia and try to negotiate with Ethiopia so that they can come up with a cooperative
arrangement to manage the waters of the Nile.
I don't believe that Ethiopians are going to go back to the old system, in which Egypt consumed virtually all of the waters of the Nile.
The Egyptians, if they're really serious about this issue, they need to sit down with Ethiopians and try to come up with an arrangement that will allow
the Nile to be managed from a cooperative point of view as opposed to the way the Nile has been managed in the past several years.
ANDERSON: This is fascinating. And it's a story we will come back to. Sir, thank you for joining us. Your analysis and insight extremely
valuable to our viewers.
We're going to take a very short break. Back after this.
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ANDERSON: Our "Parting Shots" and we just have time for those tonight. It's an atmosphere like no other. People united on the streets across
Lebanon. The country now in its 22nd day of anti-government protests.
The women of the country, well, they are rocking the forefront of the movement, blazing through Beirut last night. Hundreds marched to
government headquarters, making noise but also maintaining their peace. Have a listen to what they had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): This is the first time in our lives we see the role of women being this important in the revolution.
It's not like you see every time, only men. Now the women are taking their place.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): Because we are stronger and united, we are here from all sects. Today there are no weapons. There's
just us, peacefully.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[11:55:00]
ANDERSON: Amazing scenes.
I'm Becky Anderson. That was CONNECT THE WORLD. Thank you for watching. Short break before CNN continues after this.
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