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British Prime Minister in ICU; Fauci Suggests Social Distancing Will Be the Norm for a While; Wuhan to Drop Lockdown; Japan Launches State of Emergency; Trump Insists on Praise for Outbreak Response; Wisconsin Moves Ahead with Voting; Closing Schools May Have Small Effect on Virus Spread; Drug Hoarding Making Life Difficult for Patients. Aired 10-11a ET
Aired April 07, 2020 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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HALA GORANI, CNN HOST (voice-over): Hello, everyone. I'm Hala Gorani. This is CONNECT THE WORLD. Let's bring you up to date on the latest with the
coronavirus pandemic and Britain's prime minister still in intensive care. We'll have the latest on Boris Johnson's condition this hour.
And in China, restrictions in the city of Wuhan will soon be lifted as the country reports no new coronavirus deaths for the first time in the
pandemic.
And is closing schools really having a big effect on stopping the spread?
A new report predicts, no, it doesn't do much. I'll speak to one of the authors and what it means for when schools should be reopening.
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GORANI: Well, our reporting this hour begins here in London, where the prime minister of the United Kingdom, Boris Johnson, remains in intensive
care at St. Thomas Hospital, 10 days after testing positive for COVID-19.
Boris Johnson was moved to the ICU Monday night after his symptoms worsened. One cabinet minister told BBC Radio he is not on a ventilator and
he's receiving the best of care.
Meanwhile, the foreign secretary, Dominic Raab, has taken over Johnson's duties at 10 Downing Street and has been asked to deputize for the prime
minister where necessary. Let's go to CNN's Max Foster, outside of British Parliament in London.
Max, first of all, obviously everybody very much waiting for the next update on the prime minister's condition, how he's doing.
What can you tell us about that?
MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: Well, we did have some of the details that you just gave out there from the prime minister's spokesman,
speaking to a group of journalists. We're expecting another email update this afternoon on the prime minister.
Everyone very keenly aware that he's in intensive care and it could go either way if you look at previous people who have gone in there. But as
you say, he's not on a respirator, that's crucial. Doesn't have pneumonia, he's in there, so does appear that he's stable at least in intensive care.
So that's very positive news.
The royal family sending their best wishes to him and his wife, his wife pregnant -- his partner, Carrie Symonds, is pregnant but also recovering
the from virus. So a horrible situation for the whole family.
GORANI: And who is in charge now?
We know Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, not a name known outside of the U.K. necessarily, is deputizing wherever he needs to deputize. But
there is no system like the United States, where you have a clearly defined caretaker, a leader like the vice president.
How is it working in the U.K. right now?
FOSTER: Well, I think Downing Street are suggesting they do have a clear plan. So the first secretary in the cabinet, Dominic Raab, automatically
takes over if the prime minister becomes incapacitated. That isn't a case currently. So we're trying to work out where this in between stage means.
They're saying the prime minister is in hospital but he's still in charge. But Dominic Raab steps up when required, so chairing cabinet meetings, for
example. But that leaves a lot of murkiness in this, it is not really clear who is in charge, when, which is a problem for the queen, for example, who
has to approve any appointments made by the prime minister, whether or not the U.K. goes to war even.
These are really serious matters. And it doesn't appear that they properly have been thought through. The prime minister's spokesperson said this, he
does have the authority with the cabinet to respond to an attack on the U.K. but he can't hire and fire ministers.
He can't also hold the weekly meetings with the queen, either. And he will be succeeded -- the succession plans for Dominic Raab as well, who will be
the chancellor. But none of this is actually tested until Dominic Raab takes up those prime ministerial powers.
[10:05:00]
FOSTER: He's the one that can push things and then we have to see what happens. As always with the U.K., without a written constitution, we can't
make things up along the way. We look for Downing Street to make the clear guidance on this. The queen is trying to stay well clear of it.
GORANI: All right. And she did send her best wishes for a swift recovery. Thanks very much, Max Foster, he's outside Parliament.
Let's get more on how government is reacting to the prime minister's hospitalization. Alastair Campbell was the communications director for
former prime minister Tony Blair and in a similar situation in 2004, when the prime minister at the time went in for a procedure.
What happens at the highest levels of government when a prime minister is in hospital?
ALASTAIR CAMPBELL, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR FOR FORMER PRIME MINISTER TONY BLAIR: Well, this is very, very different to that. That was a fairly
straightforward procedure, where people knew what was -- how long he was going to be in there, what would happen and, to be frank, it was no
different if he had been abroad or on holiday or at a summit.
The prime minister can travel, if you like, with a mini version of the infrastructure around him. This is very different. We're now with Boris
Johnson, the prime minister, in intensive care. Now whatever definition you want in intensive care, there is no way being intensive care can carry out
the regular functions of being prime minister. So this is very, very different.
GORANI: And what do you make of how the government has communicated updates on the prime minister's condition?
Yesterday it really was quite a shock this announcement that the prime minister, Boris Johnson, was in intensive care, the implication being his
condition is potentially very serious.
CAMPBELL: I think there was -- you could sense -- those of us who were here and kind of following everything very closely, you could sense there
was a tension and that possibly they were deliberately trying to conceal, for reasons I do understand, trying to conceal just how serious it was.
But I think once the guy's in hospital and particularly once he's in intensive care, there is no way that you can kind of keep that quiet, no
way to pretend it is anything other than what it is.
I think for me and other people, the key moment yesterday was when Dominic Raab was doing a news briefing and said he hadn't spoken to the prime
minister since Saturday. This guy is meant to be his deputy. Not to have spoken to him for 48 hours in the middle of a crisis made me think this is
quite serious.
GORANI: So what is going on?
Who is -- who is in charge right now?
As you mentioned, and rightly mentioned, if you're in intensive care, that means you need very special and intense medical attention. And saying that
you're still leading the country is possibly a stretch.
So who is in charge?
And we're in the middle of a crisis on top of everything else.
CAMPBELL: We are in the middle of a crisis. But our system is very different to the American system, where you have a directly elected
president, a vice president that is elected with him and who would take over and deputize normal circumstances, should the president be
incapacitated.
We have a parliamentary democracy with a queen, as head of state, appoints the prime minister, that's a constitutional fact. If the prime minister, as
now is effectively incapacitated, then the cabinet becomes the body in a sense that has to make the decisions collectively that he might take --
lead in making those decisions.
The reason we have a -- that Boris Johnson has a first secretary of state, Dominic Raab, he will deputize, he will sit in the prime minister's chair
in policy meetings, he will probably front much of this in terms of the public agenda.
But they're all going to have to step up to the -- step up to this. They're all going to have to take on added responsibility, including senior civil
servants as well. So the prime minister is the prime minister because only the queen can appoint a prime minister. But the cabinet and at the moment
Dominic Raab, who's first among equals, the cabinet will govern the country.
GORANI: You know what I find interesting, though, in the U.K., is you and I spoke a lot about Brexit and about how divided the United Kingdom was
during that time from the referendum all the way to last December and January.
And now it seems as though the country has kind of come together because it is a moment of crisis, it is not an outside invasion. It is not wartime but
it feels certainly like this coronavirus represents a big threat to the country.
What do you think the lasting impact of what we're going through, this pandemic, will be on the United Kingdom after several years of really
tearing itself apart?
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CAMPBELL: Well, the Brexit issue hasn't gone away. But I think this coronavirus has put everything, if you like, in perspective.
And there was something pretty extraordinary about the fact that Boris Johnson was actually being rushed to hospital at the very moment the queen
was speaking to the nation about the importance of people coming together.
The government -- I've been very critical of some of the government's handling of the crisis so far. But I think it is one of those moments where
people just think, OK, we can criticize.
And people will continue to criticize and should, where they think that's justified. But at the same time, it is a moment where you look at
politicians and people in senior positions and you remember they are ultimately human beings.
The lasting impact of this is very, very hard to tell. I think there has been a lot of change already. I'm looking out into the sky at the moment,
where normally we sit here and look out of the office, I can see a whole stream of airplanes, steam behind them, they have gone. A big change. That
will come back at some point one imagines.
Other changes, people are being nicer to each other. That's true. The -- we have a right-wing conservative government that is spending money like there
is no tomorrow. That's not going to last forever.
So I think there will be some changes that are definitely permanent but it is too early to say what the lasting impact is going to be. We're still in
the middle of this.
GORANI: All right. Yes, we still are certainly. We haven't reached the peak in the U.K., the United States as well, very much a vertical curve
almost for the U.S. in terms of the number of deaths due to coronavirus. Thanks very much, Alastair Campbell, as always.
As more countries are equipped with testing, confirmed cases of novel coronavirus have surpassed 1.3 million. More than 76,000 people have died.
These are the latest numbers from Johns Hopkins University.
Those numbers, as you can see there, still very concerning. And U.S. officials are warning this may be the country's deadliest week for COVID-
19. So not out of the woods yet, far from it.
As is the case in the United Kingdom, the United States has not reached that high plateau from which it can then descend. Johns Hopkins puts the
death toll there at almost 11,000 in America.
You'll remember the death toll was in the double digits and here we are, nearly 400,000 cases. But the Centers for Disease Control says that
reporting data can lag by one or two weeks.
Making matters worse, medical workers on front lines are dealing with a severe shortage of protective equipment. The U.S. surgeon general says the
federal stockpile simply is not enough at this stage. On the ground, here is Athena Jones.
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ATHENA JONES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In New York City, medical personnel are already stretched thin. And this morning many are fed
up.
JILLIAN PRIMIANO, REGISTERED NURSE, WYCKOFF HOSPITAL EMERGENCY ROOM: We need supplies. We need more than one gown per shift. We need to not be
transmitting coronavirus from patient to patient and home to our families.
JONES: A health and human services inspector general report says hospitals across the nation are suffering from a severe and widespread shortages of
critical supplies needed to both fight the pandemic and protect healthcare workers. President Trump dismissing the report entirely, suggesting it was
political.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Should it be for longer.
TRUMP: Did I hear the word inspector general? Really? It's wrong.
JONES: Despite the denial, Michigan is facing the third highest number of coronavirus cases and could run out of medical supplies soon.
GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): We are running dangerously low on PPE. We are doing everything that we can at the state level to secure more personal
protection equipment.
JONES: The governor of Illinois says he's short on protective equipment, too and wants the Trump administration to do more.
GOV. J.B. PRITZKER (D-IL): Take note that this is not as simple as placing an order and having it arrive at your doorstep a few days later.
JONES: The president firing back, saying his team is doing a great job.
TRUMP: Some of the states are very happy. Even Governor Pritzker from Illinois is happy ,because he may not be happy when he talks to the press,
but he's happy.
JONES: Meantime, state leaders like California Governor Gavin Newsom lending a hand, sending 500 ventilators to the national stockpile intended
for New York and other states.
GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): We want to extend not only thoughts and prayers, but we're also extending a hand of support with ventilators.
JONES: Docked in Manhattan, the U.S. naval ship Comfort has begun accepting those sickened by the disease.
GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D-NY): This is an enemy that we have underestimated from day one and we have paid the price dearly. Well, the numbers look like
they may be turning. Yay, it's over. No, it's not. And other places have made that mistake.
JONES: Dr. Anthony Fauci suggesting that life under coronavirus guidelines like social distancing will be around for a while.
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FAUCI: If back to normal means acting like there never was a coronavirus problem, I don't think that's going to happen until we do have a situation
where you can completely protect the population.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: Athena Jones was reporting there, she joins me now live from New York City at a convention center, now being called the Javits New York
Medical Station.
Talk to us about this shortage of protective equipment because, as I was telling our viewers and also on social media, in Italy, they have already
lost almost 100 doctors to this pandemic. I can imagine healthcare workers are terrified that they're putting themselves in harm's way here.
JONES: That's exactly right, Hala. I've talked to several healthcare workers, whether it is a nurse in the Bronx, an emergency room doctor in
Brooklyn and an intensive care unit nurse in Manhattan and they all mention these concerns about personal protective equipment.
Not just front line healthcare workers, also the folks who may contact the patients before they even get to the hospital, like paramedics and EMTs and
other kinds of first responders, all concerned about not having enough ability to protect themselves because they don't have this equipment.
In fact, the Department of Health and Human Services, in a nationwide survey of more than 300 hospitals, 323 hospitals and 46 states and that's
where the hospitals are raising alarms about having a severe and widespread shortage of this gear.
And what all of these folks tell me is that you have to take care of the healthcare workers because you have to have people able to take care of the
sick. You're going to see a collapse of the system if you don't.
I can tell you this is a huge focus of state and local officials, certainly here in New York and across the nation. We know in New York, the mayor,
Mayor Bill de Blasio, and Governor Cuomo have working together to make sure equipment can be shuffled around.
The governor signing an executive order to allow the state to take a ventilator from one place and move it to where it needs to be as long as
they reimburse the first place. so those shifts are taking place. Yesterday 600,000 of those N-95 respirator masks were set to be delivered here in New
York.
We also know that Mayor Bill de Blasio and Andrew Cuomo put out a nationwide call for help. The governor of California Gavin Newsom announced
that state is sending 500 ventilators back to the national stockpile.
So they are trying to do their best to meet the needs as they come. One thing I do want to mention with the state of New York and that's that, just
in the last couple of days there are a few indications that the numbers, the tide may be turning. It is too soon to tell if this is a trend.
We heard the governor say there is apparent flattening of the curve in terms of deaths leveling off and the number of daily hospitalizations,
daily admissions to the intensive care unit falling. We'll have to wait and see if that continues.
GORANI: Although as you know, Athena, in some European countries, we have seen some positive numbers and then followed by a spike, so fingers crossed
that for New York that holds. Thank you very much.
We are going to hear from the governor of New York, Andrew Cuomo, next hour and we'll be hearing that live on CNN and CNN International.
And I want to tell you about another White House staffing shake-up. The press secretary, Stephanie Grisham, is stepping down. Now she may look
unfamiliar. In fact you may not know her name. That's because she has never briefed the press during her time as press secretary.
Instead, she's returning to her role as first lady Melania Trump's chief of staff, this is all part of a current shake-up within the communications
team in the West Wing.
A quick look at markets, because yesterday I was telling you about a triple-digit rise, because it appears as though investors, for whatever
reason, feel like the news on the spread of the coronavirus around the world is slightly more positive now than it has been.
So the Dow Jones gaining ground, above 23,000 now at 23,187, a similar picture for the other indices.
Coming up, China, where this all started, is lifting some of the restrictions it imposed on the province where the coronavirus originated.
And take a look at these crowds.
Plus, he was once a former adviser to Pope Francis, now cardinal George Pell has been acquitted of historic child sex abuse charges. We'll bring
you reaction to that news next.
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GORANI: In just a few hours, the lockdown will be lifted in Wuhan, China, where the pandemic began. But where lockdowns are lifted, usually crowds
come together. And that is raising concerns about a second wave of infections. David Culver reports from Shanghai.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAVID CULVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): China reporting zero new coronavirus deaths for the first time in 76 days since Chinese health
officials began releasing the daily numbers.
And while the figures are met with heavy skepticism outside of China, inside its borders, scenes like this. Photos taken over the weekend of this
popular mountain hiking trail in eastern China show crowds of tourists standing barely 6 inches apart, forget 6 feet.
Most wearing face masks as they venture out of lockdowns and into nature, enjoying the three-day holiday weekend, seemingly comforted that the
government has gotten the novel coronavirus outbreak under control, despite warnings from health officials that the risks still linger.
When we arrived in Shanghai in mid-February this is what the popular area looked like, only a few locals strolling the river walk. Today, we walked
that same stretch and we were not alone. Standing in the same spots, we struggled to think this metropolis of 24 plus million was shut down at the
beginning of the year.
And now, it is bustling once again. A couple of months ago we walked in the midst of the outbreak, stores open but empty. Here was my observation at
the time. Notice the lack of crowds behind me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CULVER: You got a few folks out and about. The vast majority of people don't feel like they're coming on to the streets.
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CULVER: That was two months ago. Look at the difference now. You see the crowd building up behind me. People less and less fearful of venturing out
and resuming life in this new normal.
CULVER (voice-over): We went back to the same shops, the employees no longer desperate for customers. Local Shanghai residents hopping on board a
tour bus and a woman taking her 11-year-old daughter around the city, schools still closed.
Consider this a field trip. They adapted to the new mode of at-home learning. But Ana and her daughter ready for this long break from school to
end.
ANA XU, SHANGHAI RESIDENT: Almost four months.
CULVER: Almost four months?
XU: Yes, yes, at the beginning of this year.
CULVER: That's almost unbelievable.
Is it hard to have everybody at home at the same time?
XU: Yes, yes.
CULVER (voice-over): As China has now shut down its borders to nearly all foreigners, most tourists in China's capital, Beijing, are Chinese, taking
advantage of warmer weather and this new phase of freedoms, posing for pictures in a now reopened Tiananmen Square.
While there is comfort to see restaurants filling up again or families having a picnic at local parks or kids being kids, playing with friends,
you have got to wonder, is it all happening too fast?
Will this continue?
Or might another wave of the outbreak send life here back inside?-- David Culver, CNN, Shanghai.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: It is very different picture in Japan after a spike of infections in Tokyo. The country is getting ready for a month-long state of emergency.
The government is asking people to stay home and is closing nonessential businesses.
And it's hoping a $1 trillion stimulus package will keep the world's third largest economy afloat. CNN's Will Ripley reports from Tokyo.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WILL RIPLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In this trendy Tokyo neighborhood, the stage is set, the band is ready.
[10:25:00]
RIPLEY: But the show may never go on.
RIPLEY: What is your biggest fear?
RIPLEY (voice-over): "I don't know when the coronavirus outbreak will end," says Yu Suganami (ph).
He's been saving for years to open a live music venue. He can't have a concert without an audience.
RIPLEY: You have a cushion that can last you one, maybe two months.
What happens after that?
He says, "This place will be closed without ever being open."
For small businesses, already on life support, Japan's state of emergency threatens to pull the plug. People in seven prefectures, including Tokyo
and Osaka, are being told to stay home.
Only basic economic activity, like public transit and supermarkets, will continue. The Japanese prime minister Abe Shinzo announced an unprecedented
stimulus package worth nearly $1 trillion, 20 percent of Japan's GDP.
It includes desperately needed handouts for struggling families and small business owners, also, tax deadline breathing room for cash-strapped
corporations.
JENIFER ROGERS, ATTORNEY: I don't think there is any company that hasn't been adversely affected unless they're selling ventilators or really needed
items.
RIPLEY (voice-over): Japan has only 22,000 ventilators for a population of almost 126 million. Around 40 percent of those were already in use a month
ago.
JESPER KOI, ECONOMIST: In a country that prides itself of being the best manufacturing country on Earth, that is (INAUDIBLE).
RIPLEY: Yes, and there is a real shortage.
RIPLEY (voice-over): Making more ventilators takes time, time Tokyo hospitals may not have.
The city is running out of beds for coronavirus patients. Japan only has seven ICU beds for every 100,000 people. That's one fifth of the United
States. Government warnings to stay at home cut hairstylist Takeki Suzuki's (ph) business by more than half.
RIPLEY: Can you survive this pandemic?
"I don't know," he says, "it depends how long this goes on. If everyone listens to the government and takes strong measures, I believe this will
end."
For now, he's giving home styling lessons on social media.
"Because of coronavirus, I'm afraid of draining my savings," he says. "But my passion, my dream, won't die."
That dream: to study in New York some day, a dream that can only come when this nightmare is over -- Will Ripley, CNN, Tokyo.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: We'll have more on the coronavirus pandemic in just a moment. But I want to update you on something beyond the pandemic news, quite
significant, coming from Australia.
Former Vatican treasurer cardinal George Pell is now a free man. He was released from prison earlier today, just hours after Australia's high court
overturned his conviction on five counts of historical child sex abuse. The 78-year-old is the highest ranking Catholic official ever to be publicly
accused of child sex crimes.
You'll remember he was sentenced last year to six years in prison for molesting two choir boys in 1996. He has consistently denied the charges.
And the Vatican says that it welcomes the court's decision.
It is not clear if Pell will be called back to work for Pope Francis or if the Vatican will resume its internal investigation. Still a few outstanding
questions on this case.
Still to come, we will bring you more on the prime minister's condition in ICU and how the country is handling the situation. Clarissa Ward will join
us from outside the hospital.
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GORANI: Welcome back.
Boris Johnson, the prime minister of the United Kingdom, remains in intensive care. His spokesperson says he is in stable condition, receiving
oxygen treatment but has not required a ventilator, which is crucial here.
The prime minister was admitted to the hospital after 10 days of persistent symptoms and was moved to intensive care yesterday. His deputy, the foreign
secretary, Dominic Raab, is standing in for him when necessary and says Mr. Johnson is in good hands.
World leaders are expressing hope for the prime minister's recovery, many are tweeting out their well wishes for him. The U.S. president Donald Trump
also commented on Mr. Johnson's condition, calling it a serious matter.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: When you're in intensive care, it is a big deal. I found Boris to be a fantastic person, just like a fantastic, warm, strong, smart guy. He
loves his country. You see that. He fought like hell for his country. And intensive care is big stuff. Really big stuff.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Clarissa Ward is outside St. Thomas Hospital.
When will we get an update on the prime minister's condition?
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that's what everybody would love to know, Hala.
I do think there is a growing sense of anxiety perhaps that the public was almost caught off guard by the news that Boris Johnson had been taken to
the ICU because, up until that point, even after he was admitted to the hospital, there was really a sense from 10 Downing Street that he was in
great spirits, that it was business as usual, that he was running his affairs from his hospital room, that this was just a precautionary measure
for some testing.
And now it is quite clear that it is a much more serious situation than that. As you mentioned, importantly, he has not been intubated. He's not on
a ventilator. He's conscious. He has not tested positive for pneumonia. He has received standard oxygen treatment. And his condition is stable and
he's in good spirits, according to his spokesperson. So plenty of reasons to be somewhat comforted.
But obviously people really wanting to hear some news perhaps that would be even more positive than that, something like an improvement in his
condition. Stable, that indicates that while it is not getting worse, it is not getting any better, either.
At this time of political crisis, more than 6,000 deaths in the U.K., of course, there is a strong thirst or hunger among the British people to see
their prime minister well and to see him make a speedy recovery so he can take the reins again -- Hala.
GORANI: All right, Clarissa Ward, thank you very much. We'll stay in touch with you.
Our chief international anchor, Christiane Amanpour, joins me from London now.
This is a worldwide challenge, different leaders have approached this pandemic in different ways.
How is it going to change the world order, do you think, with such a crisis, such a global crisis lasting several weeks, possibly months?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST: Well, Hala, as you know, it is already beginning to be a matter of debate within various governments about how
they exit the lockdown.
It is really hard to talk about that from Great Britain, where the prime minister, the man who is meant to be fighting this enemy, has been felled
by this enemy. And that is why it is creating so much anxiety here.
And people are wondering, well, in the absence of Boris Johnson, because we're told he's fine and in contact with his cabinet, but you can imagine,
if he's in ICU, it is pretty hard to be running the government from there.
[10:35:00]
AMANPOUR: So what will the deputy, the foreign secretary Dominic Raab, what authority will he have?
The next big question for the British government is when they have to re- evaluate the timeline that Boris Johnson had put on the lockdown, which was, when he announced it, on the 22nd, it was a three-week lockdown.
So they're going to have to figure that out and it is obviously going to have to be conditions-based. And then figure out many, many other things
including, of course, this scramble for testing, for all sorts of treatments, as you know, and for vital equipment that simply isn't where it
needs to be, for the front line medical health workers.
You know, of course, Boris Johnson is at a world renowned hospital with a brilliant ICU and great treatment there. But many other hospitals are
really overburdened and, just like in the United States, have a very, very hard time getting what they need.
And on top of that, the peak here has not yet happened. They're talking about maybe Easter weekend. And this is, of course, worrying a huge number
of officials and health experts, about how the hospitals will cope, how people continue to behave, to try to, quote-unquote, "flatten this curve."
GORANI: I want to ask you about how the U.S. president is handling this, because these daily briefings are turning more and more into attacks on the
press and to the embrace of unproven medication to treat this disease.
He attacked the ABC news political correspondent Jonathan Karl as well for asking a question about the inspector general. I want our viewers to look
at this and then I'll get back to you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CROSSTALK)
JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: I told you what --
TRUMP: -- you're a third rate reporter. And what you just said is a disgrace, OK?
You asked me, you said, sir, just (INAUDIBLE), take a look at what you said, now, I said, when did they -- when did this person -- how long in
government.
Well, it was appointed in the Obama administration.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Thank you very much, Jon. Thank you very much. You will never make it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: I mean, it is -- it is actually an amazing thing to see.
How are world leaders potentially reacting, processing these types of briefings?
AMANPOUR: Well, look, if people are watching them all the time, they're obviously processing them with the same amount of disbelief as you are
exhibiting right now. But this is classic Trump. The minute anybody mentions the name Obama, he goes off.
And he is classic Trump as well, when he castigates, denigrates experienced correspondents like Jon Karl, who is at ABC and has been a colleague of
mine, certainly and many people's for a long time. He's an excellent reporter.
But President Trump does not like the narrative to be taken away from anything other than praise of what he's doing.
And it is really important, it is, because let's put aside his personal anger and his personal attacks on individual journalists and on the media
writ large. But what he was also saying in that press conference, not long after he made that comment, was that America is doing great, better than
any other country on testing.
Well, that is patently untrue and that is a big, big problem in the United States. It is an equally big problem here in the U.K., because many of the
experts say that, until you have some kind of coherent testing regime, you're not going to have a proper exit strategy from the lockdown.
And here, for instance, and including in the United States, they are comparatively much, much worse off than Germany, for instance, which has a
much more developed public health sector, a much more developed manufacturing sector and has got as much testing as it could possibly need.
It has been doing testing amazingly. And we hear it has more vacant ICU beds than the whole of the British ICU capacity put together, more vacant
ICU beds. So this is really something important to focus on right now.
GORANI: All right, Christiane, thanks very much. We'll see you later on, on your program.
Staying in the United States, the number of coronavirus cases has soared to nearly 370,000. These are the latest figures from Johns Hopkins. Donald
Trump has insisted his administration is doing an excellent job.
The White House has held several briefings on COVID-19 since the outbreak began and, in most of them, Mr. Trump has focused mainly on berating the
media and praising himself. We ran that exchange with -- between the president and Jonathan Karl. Look at this exchange with another reporter at
Monday's briefing.
[10:40:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: When can hospitals expect to receive a quick turnaround of the test results.
TRUMP: Are you ready? Are you ready?
Hospitals can do their own testing also. States can do their own testing. States are supposed to be doing testing. Hospitals are supposed to be doing
testing. Hospitals are supposed to be doing testing.
Do you understand that?
We're the federal government.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Listen -- we're the federal government. We're not supposed to stand on street corners doing testing. They go to doctors, they go to hospitals,
they go to the state, the state is a more localized government. You have 50 of them. And they can go within -- you also have territories as you know.
And they do the testing.
And if you look at the chart, if you take a look, did they put it up, just take a look. These are testing and the results are now coming in very
quickly. Initially speaking, the tests were old, obsolete and not really prepared.
We have a brand-new testing system that we developed very quickly. And that's your result. And you should say congratulations, great job, instead
of being so horrid in the way you asked the question.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GORANI: Yet again, berating a reporter. Senior political analyst Mark Preston joins me now.
So Mark, how are Americans reacting to these briefings?
Internationally there is, as we were discussing with Christiane a minute ago, some disbelief that this is how the president is behaving.
MARK PRESTON, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, I would like to say that most folks are surprised by this. But this is really how he's been operating
since he started running for president and, quite frankly, how he's been operating as the commander in chief over the past few years here in the
United States.
I will tell you, if you sit and watch these briefings and hear the president speak about a specific issue, whether it is wearing masks or not
wearing masks, whether it is about bringing the economy back or holding off a little bit right now.
And then, during the same briefing, hear from the medical professionals, who are telling us that social distancing is working and we shouldn't come
back too quick.
So the bottom -- really, the easy answer is there's an incredible amount of confusion right now here in the United States because folks want to hear
the aspirational talk of Donald Trump, talking about the economy coming back because people are losing their jobs and they're concerned and scared.
But at the same time, there is a lot of confusion right now and that confusion is being sown by the president of the United States.
GORANI: But just a few weeks ago, a Gallup poll indicated that 60 percent of Americans supported the president's handling or approved of the
president's handling of the pandemic.
Have those numbers remained stable?
PRESTON: Well, we're starting to see the numbers change a little bit. But look what happened two weeks ago in where we are now. You have arguably the
most electric city in the world now, New York City, on lockdown.
You have the governor giving daily briefings right now, where many people in the United States are looking to for direction. They're looking at the
likes of Andrew Cuomo, the governor of New York, who is coming out and give these very sobering but very reassuring briefings.
And in many ways, people are looking to the governors for that kind of help. So you know, when we're looking at what the American public is
thinking right now, what they were two weeks ago, I can guarantee you, where we are now and where we will be seven days from now is going to be a
lot different.
Because as we really hit the middle of what we think going to be some problems here, Hala, specifically in the New York tristate region and where
I sit here in the Washington, D.C., region.
GORANI: And Wisconsin, by the way, is voting today.
What is going on there in the middle of a deadly pandemic?
And people are -- I'm seeing pictures of people, voters standing in line, trying to space themselves out. But you can't really social distance when
you have a huge election going on in your state.
PRESTON: No, you certainly can't. And Wisconsin, this is -- this is a very puzzling action that we're seeing being taken here in the United States at
a time when we have our leaders coming out and saying, social distance, try to avoid contact with your friends, with your neighbors, with folks in your
community.
What we have seen happen in Wisconsin is the governor of Wisconsin tried to delay today's election in Wisconsin until June, saying it is not safe to do
so. He was overturned by a court within Wisconsin that the election had to be held today.
And then, behind that, we saw the United States Supreme Court weigh in. And they have ruled against absentee ballots, folks who might have gotten their
ballots in the mail were given an extra seven days.
So another week from today, to get their ballots in. The United States Supreme Court says that they have to be in today. So this all might seem
very small and very micro as we look at one state in the U.S.
[10:45:00]
PRESTON: But this has great ramifications as we head to the elections about how do we do this very simple act of democracy.
GORANI: All right, Mark Preston, our senior political analyst, thanks very much for joining us.
A quick break. When we come back, governments have been closing schools to try to stop the spread of COVID-19.
But there is a new study out there, to all you parents as well, this might be interesting, because there is a new study that says that those measures
may not be all that effective. We'll get the research on that from the lead author coming up.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
GORANI: Classrooms around the world are empty as a result of social distancing measures. Now a new study here in London says school closures
may only have actually a very small effect in stopping the spread of COVID- 19 and that policymakers should look at other, less disruptive social distancing measures to help keep schools open.
Let's bring in the lead author of that study, Russell Viner, president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health. He's joining me live
from England, just north of London.
Thanks for being with us, Professor Viner. So the evidence to support school closures, you say, is very weak.
Why?
Explain.
RUSSELL VINER, ROYAL COLLEGE OF PAEDIATRICS AND CHILD HEALTH: OK. Closing schools seems to be common sense. And actually, when you are in a tight
situation like we are in the U.K. and in the U.S., closing schools is part of throwing everything at this condition.
But actually we need to think carefully about how effective school closures are. A lot of the data on -- and assumptions about school closures comes
from influenza. And we have many years of history of knowing about influenza outbreaks.
School closures are most effective when children are the big transmitters of disease, which they aren't in COVID, because they're not very affected
by COVID. That's number one.
And school closures are most effective when the disease is less infectious than COVID is. It is an infectious condition that doesn't particularly
affect children so much.
For those two reasons, the data from influenza actually tell us that school closures are likely to be less effective when you have a condition like
COVID. We also know that COVID is most like other coronaviruses, such as SARS, big epidemic in 2003.
If we look back at school closures in the SARS epidemic in Taiwan and China and Singapore and Hong Kong, we find no evidence that school closures
helped or that schoolchildren were involved in transmission. All this makes --
GORANI: Let me ask you, though, about -- sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, I know that my viewers will be saying but we have been told from
the beginning that kids can be asymptomatic carriers.
[10:50:00]
GORANI: And that therefore they will put adults around them at risk, not other children. So the teachers, the parents congregating outside the
school gates and that kind of thing.
Why would that not be an issue according to you?
Or as much of an issue as we think?
VINER: All of this is an issue. I'm not saying open schools tomorrow. That's not what we're saying. We're in a tight situation in the U.K. or the
U.S. right now, social distancing and every part of society needs to be involved.
What we're saying is we need to think about how these lockdowns end. And what we need to do is, as we open up society, think about opening schools
early in that open up, don't leave it late. Don't run with assumptions about children being highly transmissive of this infection.
We think of children as transmitting infections and being a source of risk. Actually the evidence doesn't support. One thing we need to look at
is opening in schools in cleverer ways, cleverer ways such as --
(CROSSTALK)
GORANI: Talk us through -- sorry, Professor, I don't mean to talk over you. There is a lot of -- there is a lot of, you know, technology here,
these Skype interviews, right, a bit of a delay as well. I don't mean to be talking over you.
But I have a question about what you believe should happen now in a country like the United Kingdom. Schools are closed, except for the kids of
essential workers.
How should we approach reopenings the schools?
I know parents around the world are very much interested in the answer to that question.
VINER: Sure. So when the decision is made by the government to start to end the lockdown, and I can't influence that, we need to think about
gradually reopening schools. What we can do is reopen them a year or class at a time. We can open schools with social distancing embedded in the
schools. I think that's the key message from me.
We shouldn't think of schools as just open or closed but reopen schools with social distancing embedded. For example, we could have half of the
years attending in the morning, they are started at different times, staggered start times, different years, different classes never meet.
The children don't have necessarily have the breaks, don't have a lunch time, don't play on the playground. What they do is they get some education
and get to see some other children. This will be much safer if we have better --
GORANI: Yes.
VINER: There is a whole range of different ways of doing it.
GORANI: All right. Professor Russell Viner, thank you for joining us there on that important question, when and how to reopen schools.
We're going to take a quick break and be right back.
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(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
GORANI: Well, India is easing export restrictions on certain medications, including this anti-malaria drug. President Trump has touted it as a
treatment for COVID-19, even though it has not been proven effective for that yet.
India had just put the export ban in place; now it says drugs which have already been ordered will be released and priority for new exports will be
given to countries badly affected by the pandemic as well as its neighbors who rely on India's capabilities.
[10:55:00]
GORANI: It doesn't seem to matter that the research on this drug has not yet been conducted or that the anti-malaria drug has been proven effective
to treat COVID-19. People have started to hoard it anyway. Elizabeth Cohen has that story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Elaine MacKenzie has a lot to do in her home in Connecticut. A mother of five, she
needs to take care of her daughter, Kayla, who has autism, and take care of her mother, who is 91.
But it hurts, even to do this because Elaine has rheumatoid arthritis and she can't get her medicine.
ELAINE MACKENZIE, RA PATIENT: I tried probably seven or eight different pharmacies in our area.
COHEN: So it wasn't just one pharmacy; it was several pharmacies that didn't have the hydroxychloroquine.
MACKENZIE: Absolutely.
COHEN (voice-over): Over the past few weeks, President Trump said that Elaine's medicine, hydroxychloroquine, plus an antibiotic called
azithromycin, better known as a Z-Pak, might work against the coronavirus.
TRUMP: I think it could be a game changer and maybe not. And maybe not. But I think it could be, based on what I see. It could be a game changer.
COHEN (voice-over): Right away, doctors started hoarding it. A pharmacist in Oregon tweeting, a dentist just tried to call in scripts for
hydroxychloroquine plus azithromycin for himself, his wife and another couple.
Atlanta pharmacist Ira Katz seeing the same thing.
IRA KATZ, PHARMACIST: I'm getting electronic prescriptions from all over the country, from doctors, for doctors I don't know and patients I don't
know, for hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin, with a Z-Pak.
COHEN (voice-over): At least 22 states have now enacted regulations to stop the hoarding since no one even knows if the drugs will work against
coronavirus. Studies are happening now but they are a long way from making conclusions. And these drugs could, in the end, even prove harmful to COVID
patients.
KATZ: This is a prescription drug by definition, it is a dangerous drug and there are adverse effects and side effects. And it is not for
everybody.
COHEN: Hydroxychloroquine is used to treat malaria and lupus as well as rheumatoid arthritis. For Elaine.
COHEN: Without any medication, how does it feel?
MACKENZIE: It is just very painful. It is -- it makes it very difficult to go on with my day. It is -- trying to find some more holistic approaches to
it. I've been ordering some ginger online and things like that to see if that could help with the inflammation.
COHEN: And is that taking care of your pain?
MACKENZIE: No. No. No. Not at all.
COHEN (voice-over): She has heard about what Trump said.
COHEN: Any thoughts on that?
MACKENZIE: Yes, I believe that he should probably leave many things to the medical professionals and that's who we should be listening to. And I think
he needs to back off.
COHEN (voice-over): She says she'll just keep working through the pain so she can take care of the people she loves until this pandemic passes --
Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, reporting.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GORANI: All right, we'll have a lot more on the pandemic after this. Stay with us.
END
