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Search Operations Underway As Signs Of Life Detected; Study: Russia's Vaccine Generated Immune Response; Activist: It's Time The International Community Stops Accepting This; CNN Speaks To Plaintiff In Lawsuit Against Libyan Warlord; Lawsuit Filed In U.S. Accuses Libyan Warlord Of War Crimes; Aspiring Writer Unwittingly Lured Into Russian Plot. Aired 11a-12p ET

Aired September 04, 2020 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:00]

BECKY ANDERSON, CNN ANCHOR: To the show a pulsing signal bringing a dash of hope to a city and entire nation that desperately needs it rescue crews in

Beirut have been digging into the rubble where signs of life were detected. This comes a month after the August 4th explosion that destroyed much of

the city's port and downtown area.

A Lebanese Civil Defense Official tells CNN the evacuation is less than half a meter away from the survivor, survivors or whatever it is or was

detected under the rubble. It may not sound far, but it is a low and methodical job. They have to be more and more careful the closer they get.

Special thermal imaging shows body heat and another device, we are told, has picked up breaths. And that is the sound of silence at the dig sight.

The bystanders keeping quiet so machines can better capture breaths or heartbeats.

Our producer on the ground said you could almost hear a pin drop in the 300-meter radius around the destroyed area. CNN's Sam Kylie looks at how

this all played out over the last 24 hours or so.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: In a city desperate for good news, literally a whiff of hope. Flash, a trillion-rescue dog, sniffs

out possible signs of life in the rubble, 28 days after Beirut was hit by this. Nearly 200 confirmed dead, thousands wounded and 300,000 homeless

after the blast.

Protests forced a government out and the nomination of a new Prime Minister over the next month. And then flash signaled that someone could be alive

here on Wednesday under all this. Thursday morning his masters, with the top rescue team, used scanners and picked up hints of life, faint sounds of

breathing, a faltering heartbeat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That we have to dig tunnels to penetrate the structure reach the spot and dismiss or confirm the presence of a body or live person

inside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KILEY: Silence, a devastated city holds its breath. Rescuers strain to pick up a shred of life through the wreckage. Dangerous work fierce the -

collapse on the teams paused their efforts after dark. But deeply distrustful of the authorities, locals demanded that the search go on.

She says, for one month, one month a person has been here. How are they able to go home and go to sleep? What if this is their father or mother?

Overnight engineers shored up collapsing walls and searches continued into Friday morning. Day 30 since the blast.

The scanners again picking up signs of possible life but it's fading. What may be breaths down from just 18 to only 8 a minute by Friday thermal

imagery revealing a door to a chamber but no signs of life, hopes here now raised are very hard to let down. Sam Kylie, CNN.

ANDERSON: Let's bring in someone who has been on the ground and has been helping clear up the entire city after the blast, Paula Yacoubian is a

Lebanese politician, now former member of parliament who resigned after the Beirut blast, and it's a pleasure having you on, Paula. Describe the scene

where you are and what you understand to be going on as we speak?

PAULA YACOUBIAN, LEBANESE POLITICIAN: Hi, Becky. There is still a glimpse of hope that there will be someone alive in that place. Hope is slim, but

there are people hoping for a miracle. As you know, the Lebanese authorities were not ready, and they're never ready, never competent enough

to deal with the enormous explosion.

Today marks one month after this explosion, and until now, the frustration is very high because we have no information on the investigation, we have

nothing tangible to talk about, but what happened, there is no answers for the people.

And what happened yesterday also was really very scary, how callous this can be. At until 4:00 in the morning yesterday, I was here trying to talk

to everybody in the country and trying to bring back the Chilean team to continue their work.

We succeeded around 3:00 I think in the morning and they worked nonstop. We are learning from them how to work in disasters like this? And what's -

right now what's really terrifying is anything else that can happen we know how much we're not ready?

[11:05:00]

YACOUBIAN: How much this country that we spent 300 billion on infrastructure, on rebuilding the tiny Lebanon those 10,000 square

kilometers, there is nothing working at all. Each time there is a challenge, we remember that we don't live in a state, not even in a jungle,

unfortunately.

ANDERSON: Paula, it does seem almost inconceivable that someone could survive under the rubble for a month. But according to one of those Chilean

rescue volunteers you've been speaking about, who has been working tirelessly at the scene, it is rare, Paula, but it does happen. I guess

people are holding onto that glimmer of hope at present, correct?

YACOUBIAN: Yes, people are holding on because, Becky, these are the Chileans telling us, according to the equipment they have, that they are

sensing breaths and they counted 18 breaths per minute. What they're saying is making sense.

The equipment they have is very sophisticated, and let me tell you, the Lebanese people are so vigilant right now, they stayed here all night

putting effort all the time to bring back the Chilean team, because we need hope. We need to believe that miracles still happen.

We need to believe that if there is anyone there, we need to rescue them. So even if the chances are really slim, we need to keep on showing people

some attention, some caring government and this is what we don't have. So let me tell you--

ANDERSON: Paula, tell us what happened overnight? You were talking about what happened overnight? As you understand it, because the army has

certainly put out a statement that says they were concerned for the safety of this rescue team, or words to that effect. What actually happened?

YACOUBIAN: That's what the army said. However, we were here all night, and we saw them coming back and just working just the way they stopped working.

So we're not sure about the safety issue, and the notion of safety in Lebanon does not exist, Becky.

We would have rescued a lot of people, firefighters who died a month ago in the blast, if we just told them that there is something dangerous in the

port instead of sending them to put the fire out when all the authorities knew that there was ammonium and other things, explosive chemicals.

So, we know that they don't care about our lives. Yesterday we think there was cause to stop the work because there were differences in the Chilean

team and the Lebanese team. Then the Chileans asked me to get to an agreement and a clear message from the army that they can have full

control, so they resumed work.

This is what we achieved thanks to the Defense Minister that we managed also to wake her up at 2:00 in the morning. I'm not criticizing her she

wakes up very early. She works very hard, but this is what happened, unfortunately, when there is something happening in Lebanon, even in a

catastrophe, that enormous you have to - phone calls and talk left and right and you have to use the media, you have to use also the people.

If people were not in the street, you have no leverage here. The presence of people in the street and the pressure they're putting this is what's--

ANDERSON: You make a very good point, and you should be applauded that for ensuring for that team was able to continue in what is an extremely

delicate situation on the ground. Paula, a month on, no politician has apologized, and the local investigation has yet to pinpoint any

responsibility for the disaster. What can the Lebanese expect next?

YACOUBIAN: Well, I think they know how low this - is? We can expect from the international company to delegitimize this mafia. That's the only thing

that we can ask those who are watching us abroad. As for the Lebanese, they delegitimize them in the street despite all the force that they're using,

despite all the restricted weapons that they're using against the demonstrators.

They're very resilient, they're staying in the street, and they're doing this kind of job you know trying to rescue someone. People came from all

over Lebanon just to tell them, no, you cannot stop.

[11:10:00]

YACOUBIAN: You cannot pretend that there is not a problem. You have to continue, and you have to show some empathy. I think this is what we're

able to do right now, Becky, but let me tell you, some people here did not sleep since yesterday.

I managed to get three hours of sleep, and - the famous director said - and I just so heard with the same cloths to stay here - didn't move. People

that I know Paula - and others they stayed here all night and they're still here with the media, who is supporting the protests, the demonstrations,

and are staying on their side.

We need the media on our side. This is the only weapon we have to tell the world what's happening here.

ANDERSON: Paula, as you speak, we should just pause for a moment those bells indicating a moment of silence for those who have lost their lives.

And these are live pictures coming to us as people put roses down, put flowers down to commemorate those who have lost their lives. It is 10:06 in

the evening in Beirut. Paula, thank you.

All right, I'm going to keep an eye on that story for you as it develops through this next hour in Beirut. You will understand that we also need to

get to other news this hour but keeping one eye on that scene.

To a major breakthrough in the global race for a COVID vaccine now, and Russia says it plans to begin mass trials as soon as next week after a

study said its sputnik vaccine as it is known generated an immune response in phases I and II of its trials. Phase III is still not complete.

The research was published in what is the esteemed "Lancet" Medical Journal but it said it is a - told us in the last hour that the scale of the study

was tiny and more research is needed. Well, Matthew Chance has been covering Russia's vaccine race from day one. He joins us now from Moscow

with the latest.

And to quote the CEO of the Fund Backing this vaccine, Matthew, the results from phase I and II are a "Powerful response to skeptics who unreasonably

criticized the Russian vaccine", your thoughts?

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. The Russians have seized on these undoubtedly positive test results and

said, look, this demonstrates essentially beyond any shadow of a doubt that the vaccine is effective and it's safe.

But as you heard from the editor of "The Lancet" and as "The Lancet" report make clear the study group. The trials are way too small to reach that

conclusion. I think the fact that the third phase human trials have still not been completed, that's not even properly actually started yet, but they

will be involving some 40,000 people.

But until those trials are completed, this is what "The Lancet" says, it's not possible to say whether this Russian vaccine that, remember, has

already been approved for use inside Russia is going to be able to really stop people from getting ill from COVID-19.

Now, it's a good step forward. It does show that the vaccine is essentially safe, according to the test results so far, and it shows that the vaccine,

according to results so far, produces antibodies. So it could be effective as well. But, you know, it's still not at the point, according to many

other medical experts, that it should be made available yet to the public.

ANDERSON: Yes, and I wonder, is it any clearer when Russia expects to mass- distribute this vaccine?

CHANCE: Well, they're supposed to be in mass production very soon, but I think we've seen since they started working on this vaccine, the timelines

have slipped back again and again. Clearly the Russians have been pushing hard and plowing a lot of resources into being there first into, I suppose,

winning the race for a COVID-19 vaccine.

And they've done that in terms of getting a vaccine out there that is being - has been approved for use for front line medical staff and for teachers

and things like that.

[11:15:00]

CHANCE: But the problem with fast-tracking a vaccine like this, and this is what we're seeing in Russia, is that people are still not convinced that

it's safe and effective, so you're not getting the sort of level of pickup that perhaps the authorities would have initially wanted.

ANDERSON: Matthew, you've also been following the Alexey Navalny case, the Russian opposition leader who was poisoned. You have some new developments

for us.

CHANCE: Yes, I mean, look, Alexey Navalny is still in a coma. He's still in a clinic in the German Capital. And what the Russian authorities are saying

is that they've sent the paperwork to the investigative committee to start an investigation into his hospitalization into motion, though it hasn't

formally started yet.

But it's pretty clear that a figure like Alexey Navalny, who was such a thorn in the side of the Kremlin, would have been very closely watched

every step of the way.

There is no need to blame the Russian state, says the Kremlin, but for years state surveillance of Alexey Navalny now fighting for his life in a

German clinic appears to have been constant. This slick documentary broadcast in 2017 uses surveillance videos of Navalny with his family

provided by the Russian security services, one of the filmmakers told me, to suggest the anticorruption campaigner lives in luxury.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIMITRY BELOUSOV, FORMER PRO-KREMLIN JOURNALIST: It was spy videos, videos of meeting, Navalny with politicians. It was Kompromat about where you got

money. Main message: Where are you, Alexey Navalny got money?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: The idea, of course, was to discredit his popular anticorruption campaigns that made Alexey Navalny a painful thorn in the Kremlin's side.

Even during his latest trip to Siberia, his colleagues told CNN he was closely monitored, openly filmed in the street as he recorded his

investigation.

Just days later, Navalny was writhing in agony, being stretchered of a plane forced to make an emergency landing on the way back to Moscow. German

officials say he was poisoned with a nerve agent. The Kremlin insists no toxic substances were found in his body.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BELOUSOV: All kinds of his life were open to the FSB. It was a message. "We are watching you all" from the FSB.

CHANCE: So if they're watching them all, all the time, if Alexey Navalny was poisoned, then presumably the people watching him would have seen that

happen, wouldn't they?

BELOUSOV: Exactly. If they are looking, if they are watching for every step of him, they must know who did it. They must know. They must know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CHANCE: Surveillance operations say the Kremlin was a matter for the secret services alone not approved by them. But for a man watched as closely as

Alexey Navalny, it's hard to imagine his poisoning could have been missed.

Becky, there has been broad international condemnation of the poisoning board, international condemnation. The big question now is what

consequences Russia may face from the international community, back to you?

ANDERSON: Russia can do anything. That's the claim from the wife of Alexander Litvinenko. Thank you, Matthew. He of course poisoned in 2006

allegedly by Russia as well we speak to her after this about the Navalny case up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:20:00]

ANDERSON: Let's get you back to the story that we were just covering, the poisoning of the Kremlin critic Alexey Navalny. Well, the very latest this

hour NATO's assessment is that it is, and I quote here, beyond doubt that Russia's opposition leader was poisoned by the Novichok nerve agent,

calling it an assassination attempt.

My next guest says the Navalny poisoning makes it look like this Russian regime can do anything they want. Marina Litvinenko is the widow of ex-

Russian double agent Alexander Litvinenko who was murdered by poisoning with a rare radioactive isotope in 2006 and she joins me live from Berlin

in Germany.

Marina, I'm sure this brings back very painful memories. Thank you very much indeed for taking the time to speak to us. What was your reaction when

you heard the news about Navalny and the German confirmation that this was, indeed, poisoning?

MARINA LITVINENKO, ALEXANDER LITVINENKO'S WIDOW: I'm very happy to talk to you, but first of all, I would like to say some correction, because my

husband, Alexander Litvinenko never been double agent. It's just a very important to understand. But it is important to understand what happened to

Alexey Navalny?

It was a shock for everybody, but from us aside we have - so many things from Russia's government when they tried to assassinate or to stop talking.

A lot of critics, journalists and it look like life of Alexey Navalny and as his experience it's the same rule, unfortunately.

ANDERSON: Just take us back, if you will, to 2006, if you don't mind. I'm just trying to get a sense of what Alexey Navalny's family will be going

through at this point?

LITVINENKO: It is an extremely difficult situation. It is a lot of similarity, but of course it's a lot of indifferences. First of all, 2006,

the assassination of my husband happened in London. And, of course, nobody tried to cover investigation and all evidence would have been collected.

They proved at the end it was a sponsored state murder.

My husband, Alexander Litvinenko, was killed by two Russian agents and it was his knowledge, very likely, of the President of Russia, Vladimir Putin

and Former Director FSB Nichole --. Alexey Navalny was poisoned in Russia. How likely we won't see evidence in what happened to him.

I don't see Russia incorporate to anybody or any investigation because of what happened to Alexey, I think they believed never, ever would be able to

find what a poison was used. But because Alexey Navalny was transported to Berlin and they find that it's Novichok.

ANDERSON: I spoke to Vladimir Kara-Murza yesterday, a Russian politician, I'm sure you are well aware of him who told me that he's been poisoned

twice. I just want you to have a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VLADIMIR KARA-MURZA, RUSSIAN OPPOSITION POLITICIAN: Every time something like this happens, every time another political opponent of the Putin

regime or independent journalist or anti-corruption campaign or defector or some other type of undesirable suffers an attack or attempted murder or

actual murder by poison, Kremlin spokespeople shrug their shoulders and say, oh, you know, we had nothing to do with this and nobody even knows

what happened? I think it's high time the international committee stops accepting this so called plausible deniability.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[11:25:00]

ANDERSON: What response do you expect this time from the international community? What consequence should Russia face?

LITVINENKO: First of all I would say I know very well Vladimir Kara-Murza and I do remember how it all - when it all happened to him, twice and still

now we do not have any proper investigation, not in Russia, and unfortunately, not in the United States.

And like you said it is a really last call to international community to understand who is in front of you. I am talking about Russia state. It is

very complicated when we discuss about Russia as a country and when we talk about Russia as a state. It is two different subjects.

When we're talking about Russia state, you need to remember, for the last 20 years, we ever - we have the same president and all the people around

him former KGB officers. And if you remember history of Soviet Union of assassination of how they called enemies or critics it looks like it is

still the same.

And this ideology it looks very similar for what was in the Soviet Union? And now for the international community, you just need to understand, you

don't have a democratic country in front of you. It doesn't mean you need to stop any communication to Russia. Of course, you have to, but you need

to measure that is in front of you?

ANDERSON: The Senior Director of RUSI, the Royal United Services Institute, told "The Times" today, and I just want to quote him here. He said that

international government should expel Russian intelligence offices in response to this poisoning saying, it's not going to change the regime or

recreate a new Putin, but every time something like this happens, Moscow has to know that there will be a price to pay.

That would be one consequence. But is it possible for the international community to hold Russia accountable?

LITVINENKO: I'm absolutely sure after collapsing Soviet Union, I can't say illusion, but a lot of hope Russia will be an integrated to democratic

society. And it was a lot of business opportunities from both sides. People started to travel a lot, and now we can see a lot of Russian students,

Russian children or properties that were bought by Russian.

But now it is a time to understand who this Russian is? Again, I am not saying against Old Russian or okay, who not benefited from Putin's regime,

but it was this assassination with Putin critical or Kremlin's circle or at least people seeing from - we know very well it's a personal sanction

against people who have been involved.

And it's a crime against human rights that killed Sergei the Russian lawyer, and under his name, this new law was accepted in the United States,

in some countries in Europe, finally in the UK. But it needs to be like everywhere. People who benefited from Putin's regime and it will prove

they're just not welcome to democratic country.

They're not allowed to use all this in a democratic country has bank accounts, buying property, sending children to school. It needs to be

understood because they want to do what they want, but they want to leave alive what a democratic society provided? This is the question.

ANDERSON: Marina, thank you for your time. It is important to get your voice and opinion on the story, and we thank you very much, indeed, for

joining us.

LITVINENKO: Thank you.

ANDERSON: Well, ahead on "Connect the World" we'll speak with a man who is suing Libyan Warlord Khalifa Haftar. He says his family who were victims of

the renegade general's war crimes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:30:00]

ANDERSON: A terrorist, a war criminal and haria (ph) that is how Renegade Libyan General Khalifa Haftar is being described by a group of people who

are now suing him. The case was filed in a U.S. federal court based on Haftar's dual Libyan American citizenship.

In it surviving members of two Libyan families claim he committed war crimes in a Benghazi siege that killed their loved ones. They say civilians

were subjected to heavy shelling, and their Attorney says, whole families of known - elderly and infants were forced to eat grass and drink from

puddles to survive.

Well, court documents contain even more heinous descriptions about what led to this lawsuit. CNN's Nic Robertson takes us through what happened in 2016

and the situation in Libya now.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Libya's disintegration has dragged on almost a decade, drawing in proxy powers, chasing oil,

strategic Mediterranean real estate and leaders they can live with. Now one of those leaders, self - styled Field Marshal, Khalifa Haftar, commander of

the Libyan National Army, LNA is being sued for war crimes in a federal court.

Ali Abdullah Hamza and another Libyan are filing a complaint alleging human rights abuses and other war crimes against the U.S. National Haftar. Their

family members died in one of the conflicts egregious slaughters Haftar siege of Ganfouda 2016.

Aftermath video shows young fighters bragging about civilians killed, previously used in another case against Haftar. At the time humanitarian

NGO human rights watch warned of the terrible dangers the civilians faced at the hands of Haftar's forces.

Haftar's representative has not responded to a request for comment from CNN, but many civilians died, unclear precisely how many. An estimated 600

to 700 innocent civilians would die.

Today the country is fragmented, and thousands of people have died since Dictator Muammar Gaddafi was ousted by Arab spring rebels back by NATO in

2011. Islamist militia contesting control of most cities sometimes between themselves, sometimes against tribes, sometimes against secularists

dominated in the west.

In the east, Haftar, a proclaimed secularist and his LNA, Libyan National Army held sway. He held backing from Russia, Egypt and the UAE who viewed

the Islamist militias control in the capital Tripoli as a regional danger over the past few years, Turkey through its support behind the Islamists

and other militia sending weapons and fighters from Turkey and Syria.

[11:35:00]

ROBERTSON: This summer the tide of the conflict turned when Haftar failed to take Tripoli and the rest of the country. Now a messy peace resting on a

week U.N. nominated government, underpinned by political Islamists and other militias is closer than it has seemed in years. What happens in the

U.S. courtroom could convince Haftar it's time to cut a deal. His enemies are counting on it.

ANDERSON: We will hear more on this from Nic in a few minutes. But first my next guest is one of the people suing General Haftar for war crimes. He

says five of his family members were massacred in a bombing attack on the Benghazi neighborhood of Ganfouda.

And in the aftermath of those losses, he said he was disappointed with the Libyan federal government, saying in 2017 "They never considered us or

those who are there as worthy of defending and standing with them, so condolences from them are rejected".

Ali Hamza who made that statement on the siege joins me now from Toronto. And first of all, we are so sorry for your loss. Can you just explain

exactly what happened to your family?

ALI HAMZA, PLAINTIFF: As Haftar moved with his military machine for his own agenda against civilians' neighborhoods; my family had to basically seek

refuge in the Ganfouda area with many other families.

And then in no time, basically, July 2016, I guess, he turned around to those families, and instead of giving them an access out of Ganfouda, they

were not in line with him and they were not happy with how he did.

Instead he encircled them and he prevented any humanitarian aid from getting to them, and then we started the very painful journey of hearing

about them being denied food, being denied any medical access. And then every week we would be reporting on families' casualties and homes being

hit, and the story continued, basically, from that on.

ANDERSON: Well, the lawsuit that you have in the states argues that as the Head of the Libyan national army, Haftar, who is a U.S. citizen, is

personally liable for actions that include torture and war crimes. And Ali, your attorney is requesting that the U.S. government initiate criminal

proceedings against him. Why do you want the U.S. to intervene? And what hope do you have that your lawsuit will be successful?

HAMZA: It's almost unreal, you know, it's almost incredible. I would like people to read about what happened to Ganfouda to the many families? You

have Amnesty International reports on Ganfouda in 2016 and 2017. And you have the human rights watch reports on Ganfouda in 2016 and 2017.

You would hear a spokesperson for Haftar right on TV labeling all the families as terrorists and warning that anybody fourteen years of age or

all there will be killed. We tried the humanitarian shipment to arrange a humanitarian shipment from Canada, and they come on TV and they say, they

will bomb any humanitarian shipment.

And then basically families were being bombed by shelling on the ground or by aerial bombardment. If you read the human rights watch reports, you will

find that families were being hit by planes. And when there is a rescue effort to try and rescue the injured, Haftar's planes will come and circle

back against the families and kill them.

And when we were reporting as members of - food to the international community, some of our reports were like, children are biting their nails

and many women are going mental, and children are asking their parents when are they going to kill us next?

And our file basically, on January 5, aerial bombardment killed five children only 20 hours after Haftar has let Isis militia leave the three

districts of Benghazi towards western Libya without any resistance. Just only 20 hours or 18 hours later after letting ISIS leaves safely, he

bombarded the families.

[11:40:00]

HAMZA: Their parents communicating with all their homes window's after the attack, they said we must have casualties we should go out to the bombed

home and try to rescue the children.

ANDERSON: Right.

HAMZA: But then they said--

ANDERSON: I understand.

HAMZA: --say to each other, we cannot go to the rescue; the planes are still staying overhead. And when it comes to the U.S. authorities--

ANDERSON: Ali - sorry, Ali, I now wanted to get to the U.S. authorities, because this is important. On Wednesday your attorney, Mark Zaid, wrote to

the Attorney General William Barr saying in part, and I quote "Haftar came to our shores and accepted the privilege and obligations, moral and legal

that came with being a U.S. citizen".

The United States has cleared jurisdiction over him for his criminal misdeeds. Whether we have the courage to pursue him is a matter still to be

decided. Very briefly, Ali, what is your message to the U.S. government?

HAMZA: The U.S. government, we ask the U.S. government since Haftar is a U.S. citizen, he committed war crimes. He committed crimes against

humanity. My brother and sister were killed in February, my mom was killed in March, and my sister and brother with her. The other family, they had

three children killed on January 5th.

The United States issued a statement, you know, after the first arrest warrant against the Haftar Commander, and he did not cooperate with that

statement. And that commander went ahead and massacred ten more people January of the following year, you know.

And the United States said very clearly to the international community, we have adequate laws against U.S. war criminals, we have adequate laws

against U.S. terrorists. Haftar is the most pronounced war criminal and terrorist and is an American citizen.

We want the United States authority to join us in telling senior citizens and children that their life is sacred and their safety is sacred. And to

bring Haftar to justice and to show the world that it has adequate laws in place against terrorism and against war crimes.

ANDERSON: And Ali, I'm going to leave it there. We thank you very much indeed for explaining what clearly nothing easy story to explain. And we

are so sorry for your loss, but we do thank you very much, indeed, for joining us today.

HAMZA: Thank you.

ANDERSON: And after the break viewers, we will dive into this lawsuit and the allegations with CNN's international diplomatic editor, Nic Robertson.

Do stay with us for that.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:45:00]

ANDERSON: We just heard from Ali Hamza about his family's story in Libya. He is suing General Haftar and calling on the U.S. government to join them

in telling people their lives are sacred. I want to bring in Nic Robertson for more on these allegations. And your reaction, firstly, Nic, to what Ali

told us.

ROBERTSON: It's tragic, and it shows you just how long the pain and loss when you're separated from your family, when they're in a terrible

situation. And you can see it developing from afar, and you wish the international community or someone else would do something about it and

step in and help, and nothing happens. And you see them over a period of time being killed.

It's hugely painful, and this is one way that clearly he and others feel that they can address it by trying to take the man they believe responsible

to court and hope that that court, because it's in the jurisdiction of a democratic country, will pay attention.

The sad fact is, I think, for Ali Hamza and for so many other people, we heard similar stories of siege and death of families, children, women in

Syria, and Libya really just dropped off the radar for headlines.

And so much of what he was describing that has been going on there has really been absent from the eyes of the world. So this is an opportunity to

begin to set the record straight for what's happened in Libya and point up the fact that there is still a desperate situation there.

ANDERSON: Ali's attorney said the following: the United States has cleared jurisdiction over General Haftar for his criminal misdeeds. This is Mark

Zaid writing to the Attorney General William Barr, no less. Whether we have the courage to pursue him is a matter still to be decided.

Now Nic, the U.S. is official position on Libya. Is that it supports the internationally recognized government based in Tripoli? But last year, we

will all recall a telephone call held between General Haftar and Donald Trump, many suggesting that there was a disconnect between the Trump

Administration. And indeed, these state departments in this position with regard to the Tripoli government there.

Firstly, is it clear what the U.S.'s position is with regard to Libya? I mean, it seems for a very long time they've been sort of keeping the

country at arm's length. And what is going on the ground at present?

ROBERTSON: Simply, I think, the United States still has, between the White House and the diplomats in the region, still an unclear position. There is

ambiguity in it. Certainly American diplomats within the region are just trying to support the UN efforts and the government of National Accord in

Tripoli. That's a very fraught mission.

I think part of what we're seeing there and this speaks the situation on the ground at the moment, General Haftar having a big military push on

Tripoli in the summer failing. But then being overrun in part because the militias in Tripoli and other places have support from Qatar, have support

from Turkey and were able to overrun Haftar's positions that were supported by Russia, and Russia then follows up by sending in more military offsets,

including fighter jets.

So what we're witnessing in Libya in part, just taking the Russian - what Russia is doing there specifically, is very much like what they did in

Syria, which is absent a strong position from the White House, they're taking advantage.

Strategically this is a good opportunity for President Putin in Russia to gain some strategic advantage closer to the Mediterranean in the same way

that he seeks to do the same thing in Syria.

ANDERSON: Nic, the UN acting Libya envoy said on Wednesday that foreign supporters on both sides in the civil war were helping them stop power

weapons in breach of arms in embargo (ph). Let's have a listen to what Stephanie Williams said at the U.N.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANIE WILLIAMS, U.N. ACTING LIBYA ENVOY: With the stakes so high, any such reckless action risks igniting large-scale confrontation with the

devastating consequences this would entail. It is imperative that you use your influence to impress on all sides that now is the time for restraint.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON: And this was a speech to the Security Council. There is hope, there is a cease fire in place on the ground that's been agreed to by both

warring political parties absent General Haftar, it has to be said. What is his influence these days? I am told by many of my own sources that it is

waning somewhat.

[11:50:00]

ROBERTSON: It does seem to be waning despite the additional support from Russia. But, you know, he represents for his backers, and you could count

here Gulf States including the UAE, including the Saudi perspective, certainly the Egyptian perspective as a bulwark against political Islam.

And this is something that leaders in the Gulf States are very, very cautious and careful about. So you know, absent Haftar, what guarantees

that these countries have that a new political dispensation in Libya, the one that the Libyan people may want, doesn't somehow over time come to

impact them.

So the pressures on Haftar to maintain his position by his backers, the competing international interests, you know, to find a solution and Libya

don't all line up. Not all European countries are aligned on this. Not all of Haftar's backers are aligned, not all of the support that the UN gets is

as strong as it wants it to be.

You know, if you go, take the example early this year of the meeting in Moscow where Moscow bought together all parties, there was an appearance of

sort of duplicity on the part of some participants that there was talk about peace.

But actually nothing came out of that, and I think everyone hopes for peace in Libya. The recognition is that it's extremely difficult to try to

deliver it because there are so many mixed different interests there.

ANDERSON: Nic, always a pleasure. Nic Robertson out of London for you today, thank you. Up next we stick with our theme of looking at Russia's

role in the world with a remarkable story that's only right here on CNN, and an American writer wrote into a Russian plot to meddle in the U.S.

election. He had no idea what he was getting into. His story is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON: Well, to a CNN exclusive and a foiled Russian scheme to meddling the 2020 U.S. elections. Aspiring writer Jack Delaney was unwittingly

recruited by Russian troll farm after losing his job due to COVID-19. The 26 year old calls what happen to him.

One of the strangers experiences of his life. CNN's Donie O'Sullivan in tweet Delaney about the Russian plot gone wrong he joins us now from

Washington. Explain sir if you will, what a bizarre story.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN REPORTER: Hey, Becky. Yes, it's like something out of a spy novel. Jack Delaney who had lost his job was over the moon when he

heard from an editor from what appeared to be a legitimate left wing online website, but not, all was not what it appeared to be. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK DELANEY, FREELANCE JOURNALIST: The message was saying, hey, we liked your work, we've seen your work before, would you like to write for us,

would you like to be part of our publication? We can offer you about 200, 250 per article. And at that time I was like, I mean, this sounds like a

good opportunity for me, I can make money, get my work published.

SULLIVAN: It must be quite surreal to hear about this and say, oh, my God, am I part of a Russian disinformation campaign?

[11:55:00]

DELANEY: Yes, it's totally surreal. I was completely unwittingly doing it. I had no idea that they were linked to the Kremlin or anything. Obviously,

if I had known, I wouldn't have done that. But it seemed legitimate from what I saw. I'm obviously no fan of Putin or the Russian government, so it

was concerning, obviously.

I don't want to have any association with an authoritarian regime. So it was - I mean, I can't put it in any other words that was like one of the

strangest experiences of my life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SULLIVAN: So you might wonder what the point of all of this, why would any Russians go to the trouble of doing all of this? And really it's part of a

campaign to inflame existing divisions here in the United States, to add fuel to the fire.

We saw in 2016 people tied to the same Russian troll group that is tied to the Kremlin according to U.S. intelligence and U.S. prosecutors, setting up

sites like this, setting up fake activist pages and trying, basically, to poke at all sides of the political spectrum.

From Russia's point of view, we haven't heard from the Russian government on this story. The people who anonymously run this website posted an

anonymous post this week after this news broke, saying that they were not tied to Russia. But what we do know from U.S. Intelligence officials here

is that Russia is trying to interfere in the 2020 election and is using social media to do it. Becky?

ANDERSON: Mr. O'sullivan, thank you, sir. And that is it from us. I'm going to cut it straight here. This has been a pretty heavy show. The world can

seem like a brutal place, can't it, full of killing and COVID and war crimes and people trapped and other horrible events.

But remember, to each of those comes the antidote of human hope, to an alleged poisoning, the world gathers together to highlight it and find

justice. The - that transformed our lives, a global effort for a vaccine and to war crimes and international effort to bring justice to someone

potentially stuck in Beirut.

A team of strangers from around the world now looking without rest to save them. When you look around, see no despair, not horror, in all places. See

your friends; see your family, see hope. Good night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END