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Trump's Final Acts in the Middle East; Biden Transition Briefing Scheduled for Today; COVID-19 Tears through the Dakotas; Navajo Nation Begins Three-Week Lockdown; Race for a Vaccine; Trump Queries Advisers about Attacking Iran. Aired 10-11a ET
Aired November 17, 2020 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We're just about to head into the red zone.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST (voice-over): Tonight, Russian revelations, with an exclusive look. CNN shows you what the Kremlin doesn't want you to see
about its devastating response to COVID-19.
Then right now, a gigantic storm letting it all out in Central America. Just the latest in what is a record-breaking tear of hurricanes this
season. We are there on the ground.
Plus Donald Trump looks set to bring troops home from some parts of the Middle East but asks about his options on striking another country here.
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ANDERSON: I'm Becky Anderson in Abu Dhabi. This hour we are connecting a world where too many still suffer beneath the headlines, headlines like the
breakthrough with Moderna's vaccine, which is, according to preliminary results, about as good as one can get.
Or the warning from America's next president, new claims that more people may die in the states if Donald Trump keeps blocking his transition.
What we want to do is connect you to a world of people who are suffering and don't have a voice in all of this, such as in Russia, where a CNN
investigation has revealed the number of people killed by COVID-19 may be staggeringly higher than official figures.
Matthew Chance has been on the forefront of Russia's battle against the coronavirus from day one. He has seen both the utter tragedy that's
unfolded and, equally, the desperate hunt for a viable vaccine. Matthew now connecting the story for us from Moscow this hour with some exclusive
access.
And I must warn you, some of these images you may find disturbing.
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CHANCE (voice-over): This is the pandemic response Russia wants us to see, a vast state-of-the-art field hospital set up to manage the coronavirus
surge.
CHANCE (on camera): We're about to head in to the red zone.
CHANCE (voice-over): It was a world championship ice skating stadium, called the Ice Palace. Now the view from the stands is 1,300 beds and the
staff of highly protected medics, apparently in control of this COVID-19 crisis.
"We have all the necessary diagnostic equipment, including ultrasound and ventilators," the chief doctor on the left tells me.
The Russian government is taking serious anti-coronavirus measures, he insists, not just here in Moscow but far beyond.
But there's another side of Russia's raging pandemic, one the authorities here would prefer that we ignore, with shocking evidence of an overloaded
health care system buckling under the strain of COVID-19.
On social media, there are heartbreaking scenes like this one of an ambulance medic, trying in vain to get a 90-year-old patient admitted to an
overcrowded ward.
"I won't take her home to die," the paramedic shouts.
"Why do I have to weep and beg you to take in a patient?" she cries.
Russian authorities admit hospitals in some regions are at more than 95 percent capacity. But there's mounting evidence of a surging death toll,
too.
In this video recorded last month and sent to us by an opposition-linked Russian doctor's union, a dead woman dangles unattended from her hospital
bed while other patients gasp for breath just feet away.
"We lost another two in the ward overnight," says a male voice on the video.
"This is how COVID-19 is killing everyone," he says.
There are horrific scenes of inundated morgues, too, some too graphic to show, with corpses strewn across floors and stretchers.
It's also emerged that official Russian COVID death figures, suspiciously low compared to other badly affected countries, may grossly understate the
real toll by excluding people who are presumed to have COVID post-mortem, even those with pre-existing conditions that proved fatal due to the
infection.
If they were counted, as in many other countries, Russia's official death toll of over 33,000 people would be higher; much higher, according to a
former government statistician, who has compiled figures on excess deaths and spoke to CNN.
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ALEXEY RAKSHA, FORMER RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT STATISTICIAN: I think it's 130,000 people.
CHANCE: A 130,000 people who have died in Russia with COVID-19?
RAKSHA: Because of COVID, because of COVID.
CHANCE: And do you believe that the Russian government is purposely hiding the real cost of the COVID deaths?
RAKSHA: Of course. They need to make people not afraid of the virus. It's very helpful for providing a good picture. So we are Russian, we are
Russians, we're proud of our country. Everything is good with us.
CHANCE (voice-over): Russian authorities have not responded to the allegations they're downplaying the figures. But outside the highly
organized and spacious field hospitals, the authorities are happy to showcase there are signs Russia's pandemic is getting worse.
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ANDERSON: That's Matthew Chance reporting.
I do just want to get you to some of his other exclusive reporting earlier this year on Russia's COVID response. Just have a look at this.
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CHANCE (voice-over): It's taken us months to gain access to this secretive Moscow lab, where these very scientists help create Russia's coronavirus
vaccine.
CHANCE (on camera): You assessed the effectiveness of Sputnik in this lab here?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.
CHANCE (voice-over): Now CNN has been given a brief but exclusive glimpse inside the Gamaleya Institute and a chance to understand how this Russian
government facility was able to produce what it says is a working COVID-19 vaccine ahead of the world's biggest pharmaceutical firms.
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ANDERSON: Just some of Matthew's reporting.
CONNECT THE WORLD has been tracking the reality behind COVID responses across the globe since the outset of this pandemic. Let me just remind you
of some of what our reporters have been seeing up close.
CNN's international security editor, Nick Paton Walsh, went to Sao Paulo, the biggest city and hottest spot for the coronavirus in Brazil. He
reported from a packed intensive care unit.
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NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: It's possibly well over a week away from hitting Brazil and already this enormous ICU is full.
WALSH (voice-over): Doctors here have heard President Jair Bolsonaro dismiss the disease as "a little flu." But presidential platitudes haven't
protected them.
Endless fresh graves for the dead, who also seem to never stop arriving.
WALSH: In Brazil, the numbers are already staggering. And it's clear; it's not the entire picture, because testing simply isn't as widespread as they
would like.
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ANDERSON: That was Nick Paton Walsh reporting in May.
Officials in Mexico are trying to cope, as the country has now topped more than 1 million cases of COVID-19. A couple months ago, CNN's Matt Rivers
met a funeral home worker, who was shocked by what he was seeing in Mexico City.
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MATT RIVERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Miguel Garcia Galicia (ph) hasn't slept more than a few hours at a time in weeks.
"I've been working so much," he says, "and the numbers just get higher every day."
He's referring to the number of dead.
The funeral home he works at in Mexico City has almost run out of coffins. They've processed seven times more bodies than normal in the last month;
the reason: COVID-19.
The actual number could be well into the millions, says Hugo Lopez-Gatell, the epidemiologist leading Mexico's response. He quickly added that every
country around the world has an untold amount of unconfirmed cases.
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ANDERSON: That was the story in Mexico with Matt's reporting.
Throughout the pandemic, we've also been, of course, in the U.K. Chief international correspondent Clarissa Ward reported back in the spring how
regular testing care homes make sure COVID cases can be quickly identified and isolated.
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CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Britain's care homes have been ravaged by the coronavirus. And so once the various organizations
have been able to gather the statistics and gather all the information and data pertaining to deaths in care homes, what they have come up with is a
number that is, you know, jaw-droppingly higher than what people had initially expected.
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ANDERSON: And just a slice of how CNN has been reporting on COVID-19 with our correspondents around the world.
Let's get to the country now with more cases than anywhere else, the United States of America. There President-Elect Joe Biden warning about the
explosive spread of COVID-19 and the critical challenge that lies ahead to distribute a vaccine.
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JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: More people may die if we don't coordinate. Look, as my chief of staff Ron Klain would say, who
handled Ebola, a vaccine is important. It's of little use until you're vaccinated.
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ANDERSON: That message appears lost on President Trump and other Republican leaders with just 64 days to go until Biden is sworn in. Mr.
Trump is still blocking the Biden team's transition and Biden's access to crucial COVID-19 data.
Right now more than 73,000 Americans are hospitalized with the virus, the highest ever. That means tens of thousands of Americans are gasping for
breath, hoping to live through it, wondering if they will.
There's no let up; more than 166,000 new cases were reported yesterday, the most the country has ever reported on a Monday.
Cases rapidly increasing all across the U.S. but no place is being hit as hard as the midwestern states of North Dakota and South Dakota, despite
their small populations. Lucy Kafanov is in South Dakota and spoke directly with families ripped apart by this pandemic.
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CHRIS BJORKMAN, COVID-19 WIDOW: I wanted him to come home. I always thought he would come home.
LUCY KAFANOV, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Chris Bjorkman of De Smet, South Dakota, is missing her husband. She and John Bjorkman tested positive for
coronavirus three months after their 39th wedding anniversary. She got better but John's health took a turn for the worse.
JOHN BJORKMAN, COVID-19 VICTIM: No energy, no drive, no nothing.
KAFANOV (voice-over): He was struggling to breathe and was put on a ventilator, the Sioux Falls hospitals so overwhelmed he had to be airlifted
to Minnesota, sharing his struggle with CNN affiliate KSFY.
J. BJORKMAN: When they flew me over here, I literally didn't know if I would see the next day. Makes me more nervous, that's about it.
KAFANOV (voice-over): Chris describes visiting him in the ICU.
C. BJORKMAN: It's awful to see someone on a ventilator. And there, all the other rooms, people were on ventilators, too, but they were all by
themselves.
KAFANOV (voice-over): John died after spending 30 days in the hospital, one of nearly 250,000 American lives claimed by COVID-19.
The pandemic is ravaging the Dakotas. At the Sanford Medical Center in Sioux Falls, Dr. Austin Simonson says the medicine is the easy part.
DR. AUSTIN SIMONSON, SANFORD MEDICAL CENTER, SIOUX FALLS: I get asked over and over again by people who are trapped in a room by themselves, when do I
get to go home?
You know, will I get better?
And I don't know.
KAFANOV (voice-over): Health experts say months of lax regulations have contributed to South Dakota's public health crisis. Republican governor
Kristi Noem ignoring safety measures that curbed the spread of COVID-19 elsewhere in the world.
GOV. KRISTI NOEM (R-SD): My people are happy. They're happy because they're free.
KAFANOV (voice-over): The governor welcomed hundreds of thousands of visitors to the Sturgis motorcycle rally this summer, didn't cancel the
state fair and has resisted issuing stay-at-home orders or a mask mandate, saying she would leave it up to the people to decide.
AMY BILLOWS, SIOUX FALLS RESIDENT: Viruses are so small that expecting a mask to block them is like expecting a chain link fence to keep out
mosquitoes.
KAFANOV (voice-over): In Sioux Falls, a proposed mask mandate divided the city council. The mayor, who has previously urged residents to mask up --
MAYOR PAUL TENHAKEN (R-SD), SIOUX FALLS: I obviously believe in masks. The importance they play in slowing the spread of COVID-19.
KAFANOV (voice-over): Voting against the mandate after the city council ended up deadlocked.
TENHAKEN: My official vote on this is a no. And that item fails 5-4.
KAFANOV (voice-over): Dr. Shannon Emry is a local pediatrician, who spent 14 years in the Air Force and blames politicians for not doing enough.
DR. SHANNON EMRY, PEDIATRICIAN: Our governor has been misleading her constituents. From the start, she has downplayed the dangers of the virus,
downplayed the importance of wearing a mask.
KAFANOV (voice-over): Governor Noem's office did not respond to CNN. But with elected leaders reluctant to intervene and COVID policy turning
political, the burden of pushing people to take the virus seriously has now fallen on the families of those who have died.
KAFANOV: Why did you feel like you had to speak out?
C. BJORKMAN: Because I want people to not go through this, what I did. I want people to care enough about their neighbors, their family, that they
wear a mask and that something gets done, that maybe we have some leadership and guidance to help with that.
KAFANOV (voice-over): Lucy Kafanov, CNN, De Smet, South Dakota.
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ANDERSON: About a 16-hour drive from South Dakota heading southwest is Navajo Nation, the largest Native American reservation in the United
States. It is now under a three-week stay-at-home lockdown because of heartbreaking stories like this.
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MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In May, per capita Navajo infection rates surpassed New York and New Jersey.
Darlene Dixson's younger sister among those infected.
DARLENE DIXSON, NAVAJO NATION RESIDENT: She went in to get tested and she said she tested positive.
SAVIDGE (voice-over): Just two weeks later, Dixson listened helplessly over the phone as her sister's COVID battle ended in a distant hospital
room.
DIXSON: I was talking to her and I was telling her, Sissy, you can't go. You have to come home to us. By 5:45, you just hear that tone of her heart
stopping and the doctor came on the phone and she said she was gone.
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ANDERSON: Next hour, CNN's Martin Savidge will join us live from New Mexico to show us how coronavirus is spiraling out of control across Navajo
Nation.
So far, we've been in Russia and we've reminded you of our reporting from Mexico, the U.K. and Brazil. And we've just taken a look at what is going
on today across America. I'll check in now on somewhere that took a very different approach to other countries in dealing with this pandemic,
Sweden.
It's now imposing new rules on the number of people who can gather at once. The country had been relying on voluntary measures to control infections.
But as Phil Black reports from the capital, recommendations are no longer enough.
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PHIL BLACK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm Phil Black in Stockholm, where the Swedish government now says organized public gatherings must be no bigger
than eight people. The previous limit was 50. It's a dramatic, symbolic shift for a country that has rejected lockdowns and embraced personal
responsibility.
The government says it's necessary because the coronavirus is surging here and people have stopped following social distancing advice. Sweden relies
on recommendations, not rules, to fight the pandemic and that official advice now includes avoiding restaurants, bars, gyms, shopping centers and
public transport and not mixing with people you don't live with.
The government's language is blunt: do the right thing, cancel your plans; the situation is going to get worse. Sweden's controversial soft-touch
approach looks increasingly like a de facto lockdown.
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ANDERSON: If we have learned anything from the reporting that we've brought you over the last 15 minutes, it is this: we need a vaccine ASAP.
But getting one doesn't mean that the fight is over, of course. CNN's Fred Pleitgen looking into that for us from Germany -- Fred.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, there ,Becky. I'm at the biggest pharma logistics hub in all of Europe. It's
Lufthansa Cargos at Frankfurt airport. We'll be looking at exactly that, the daunting challenge of delivering billions of doses of vaccine as fast
as possible. See you in a couple of minutes.
ANDERSON: That's Fred and we will see you all in a few minutes. Later, we'll connect you to the Middle East, where U.S. president Donald Trump is
considering withdrawing thousands of troops against the warning of his advisers.
And --
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ANDERSON (voice-over): Central Americans are getting battered by a second deadly storm in just two weeks. We'll connect you with those in the path of
Hurricane Iota.
And later, some insight on the growing violence between Morocco and a pro- independence group in the Western Sahara. We'll talk to a regional expert for his take on the decades-long dispute. You're with CONNECT THE WORLD,
I'm Becky Anderson. It is 18 minutes past 7:00 here in the UAE. Back after this.
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ANDERSON: Over the last week or so we've seen huge developments with coronavirus vaccines. As we've seen in the show, it couldn't come at a more
critical time. Early data shows that two vaccines have proven to be highly effective.
But there is a stark difference between the two. Pfizer's vaccine candidate has to be kept at minus 75 degrees Celsius. Doctors' offices and pharmacies
don't have freezers that go that low.
Moderna's vaccine doesn't need to be kept at ultra-cold temperatures, making it much more practical to distribute. Moderna and Pfizer must now
get American government approval but health officials say the first vaccines could potentially be available as early as next month.
Well now, logistics companies are facing what is a daunting task of delivering billions of doses around the world. Our Fred Pleitgen is getting
exclusive access from inside an airline cargo facility in Germany, being used as a vaccine distribution center.
Fred, show us what you got.
PLEITGEN: Yes. So many challenges that airlines like Lufthansa Cargo, where I am now are facing. They have to deliver many billions of doses of
COVID-19 vaccine and a lot of that has to be kept at those freezing temperatures that you just mentioned, up to minus 75 degrees Celsius or
about minus 100 Fahrenheit.
I have with me here the expert for this at Lufthansa Cargo, Thorsten Braun.
You are the head of the task force here for delivering COVID-19 vaccines.
How well prepared is your airline?
THORSTEN BRAUN, LUFTHANSA COVID-19 TASK FORCE: Yes, indeed. I'm in charge for the task force. And we've been preparing for the big event over the
last six months. And I can say, to date, that Lufthansa is well prepared and in a very good position to face this challenge.
PLEITGEN: So what do you have to do?
You have to get in touch with the vaccine companies?
You have to ask them what their needs are, right?
What are the things you do?
BRAUN: Indeed. The supply chain is very complex. There's a lot of stakeholders that all have to perform at the very same time. And we are in
very close touch with our direct customers, which are the forwarders, who also have to perform.
We're indeed also in touch with the shippers, who are producing the vaccines, in order to get as much information on the product requirements
as possible.
PLEITGEN: What are the biggest challenges that you face?
I'm sure that, while you've been in the business for very a long time, shipping a vaccine on a massive scale that has to be kept at minus 70 is
not easy.
BRAUN: That's true. There are a lot of challenges but I would like to point out two challenges.
The first one obviously is the availability of capacity. And for that, we are very well prepared. We do have the experience. And if you look at the
beginning of the year, where we did face capacity crunch, we know how to interact with our customers in order to provide capacity on the respective
lanes.
Secondly, obviously keeping the product at the right temperature is the second very big challenge that we have. But luckily, we can look back at
decades of experience and transporting pharmaceuticals. We have transported pharmaceuticals at those temperatures, up to minus 70 degrees Celsius or
minus 100-110 degrees Fahrenheit before.
So the question here is now the scaling, being able not just to transport a single shipment but up to 10 shipments on a single aircraft and flight.
PLEITGEN: It's also about capacity, isn't it, because I've learned today, that if you transport a vaccine, the colder that vaccine needs to be, the
more dry ice you need, which means less space for vaccine. And dry ice also apparently emits CO2, which could make it dangerous for flight crews.
[10:25:00]
PLEITGEN: Is that correct?
BRAUN: Well, your statements are correct. That's indeed the case. This is why we have to be prepared. So we look at each single flight and we look at
each single aircraft type that we have. We determine the limits. So we know the capabilities.
Once you know the capabilities, you can prepare accordingly. This is why I said earlier, we're in a very good position to max out the capabilities
that we've got in place.
PLEITGEN: The big question that the world wants to hear from you, the answer from you, is when the go-ahead is given for a vaccine to be approved
or when a vaccine is approved, you guys get the call to deliver it.
How quickly will it be out there?
BRAUN: The thing is, that's why we're in touch with our forwarders, this is why we're also in touch with the pharmaceutical companies in order to be
prepared.
The communication doesn't start on the day the approval is given. So currently, we already are talking about possible transportations in the
first quarter and the second quarter of 2021. So that means, when we start to transport, we're ready.
PLEITGEN: Thank you very much, sir.
As you can see, Becky, a lot of really complicated things in the logistics chain. The companies have been preparing for a long time. They say they are
prepared. This is going to be a massive, massive challenge. It is certainly one where a lot of things in the world will be looking at this.
ANDERSON: Yes, this is extremely enlightening. Thank you for that really important report of yours around the world, Fred. Lufthansa far from alone,
of course. Thank you.
CNN has been speaking to the head of Emirates Airline based here in the UAE about how to get those all-important vaccines where they need to go. It's a
global problem. We will need a global solution. Here's what Tim Clark told us. Have a listen.
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TIM CLARK, EMIRATES GROUP: I think we are better positioned as a carrier. I think we're better positioned as a hub to deal with the scale of things.
A lot of other airports and countries and airlines can deal with it on a smaller scale. And no doubt they will.
But in terms of a logistical center of distribution, under the conditions that these vaccines have to be stored and, of course, distributed, I'm not
sure there are many that really equal us in this part of the world. Certainly sitting between the east and the west major population centers.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: We are just looking at what is going on with vaccine distribution. We've been in Germany. There's a lot that needs to be done.
But there's also something else you could do: nothing.
New videos released by the German governor, hailing those who stay home during the pandemic as heroes. Here's a light-hearted message that praises
the bravery of those who are fighting the virus by doing absolutely nothing. Have a look at this.
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LUISE LEHMANN (from captions): 2020, that is a long time ago. We only just met each other and were curious about life, about our future together. But
the suddenly everything changed and the whole country put their hopes in us young people.
Nothing. We lazed around at home, met as few people as possible and with that, stopped the spread of COVID-19. We were special heroes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Germany there, praising those who stay home.
But many people need to get back to work and to see their families. So our Richard Quest hopped on a plane, looking at the stress of international
travel nowadays.
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RICHARD QUEST, CNNMONEY EDITOR AT LARGE: A patchwork quilt of quarantine restrictions and regulations.
For instance, who will fly to London if it means they have to quarantine for 14 days if they're just going on holiday?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: In the next hour, the head of United Airlines tells CNN he has a strategy that might, just might, put more people back in the air.
But first, the American president looking to keep some of his campaign promises before his tenure runs out; withdrawing troops from a, quote,
"endless war" might be next.
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ANDERSON: Right now we're tracking several developments across the Middle East as the Trump era begins to wind down. U.S. military commanders expect
Trump to order a withdrawal of thousands of troops out of the region as the U.S. State Department may soon designate the Yemen-backed Houthis as a
terrorist group, despite pushback from the U.N. and internally.
Meanwhile, a bombshell "New York Times" report reveals just how close the U.S. was to ordering a strike against Iran's primary nuclear site.
First up, though, CNN has learned that President Trump is expected to order troop withdrawals from Afghanistan and Iraq, a move many U.S. military
officials oppose. CNN's Barbara Starr connects Mr. Trump's decision with the effects in the field.
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BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: The secretary-general of NATO weighing in with a stark warning, saying the price could be very high, in
his words, if troops leave Afghanistan too soon.
But President Trump has ordered initial planning to begin to have a troop drawdown in both Iraq and Afghanistan. The president's plans for U.S.
troops call for this to be completed by January 15th, just five days before he leaves office.
What he is talking about is a drawdown in both countries: 2,500 troops left in Iraq, 2,500 left in Afghanistan. When you look at what's at stake
here, there are currently about 3,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, about 4,500 in Afghanistan.
That may be the more critical area at the moment because the Taliban had promised to reduce violence and they are not living up to that promise.
So the question is, of course, if the U.S. has this very significant drawdown in troops, what leverage will be left in that very fragile country
for the Taliban to live up to the agreement they promised? -- Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Mr. Trump, though, it seems is not just focused on Iraq and Afghanistan. According to "The New York Times," President Trump asked his
senior aides about the possibility of a military strike on Iran's primary nuclear site.
This follows an official report last week that Iran's uranium stockpile was 12 times the limit set in the Iran deal, yes, the same deal President Trump
pulled the U.S. out of in 2018.
Now according to the report, the president's advisers talked him out of an attack, saying that it could lead to a full confrontation in the last days
of his presidency and potentially cause problems for the incoming administration, a move one former adviser called encouraging.
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LT. GEN. H.R. MCMASTER, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR: Well, I think, on Iran, we ought to be encouraged by the fact that then he had apparently a meeting
and then decided against that.
Of course, you know, there's always this lure of the strike. You know, these are people who put forward easy solutions to complex problems. And
you know, war is not an easy endeavor because the other side gets a say in the future course of events.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, that reporting from "The New York Times" also finding that, quote, "Mr. Trump might still be looking at ways to strike Iranian
assets and allies, including militia in Iraq, officials said."
Joining me now is David Sanger, one of "The New York Times" reporters who broke the story.
From the quote I just introduced you with, what are these options that he was -- that he was looking for at this point?
What do we know?
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: We don't know specifically what options were presented to him. But we do know this is
hardly a new problem for the U.S. military.
The concept of how you would take out Natanz has been debated; plans have been written and torn up and rewritten over the years. There's only been
one major attack on Natanz. It was what Israel and the United States did using the most sophisticated cyber weapon we have seen yet, known widely as
Stuxnet.
And that was a decade ago and it slowed the Iranians down. But as H.R. McMaster just said in that clip that you played, it's one thing to do a
cyber strike and that can be covered up by the Iranians. It's another thing if you openly bomb them and they feel like they have to respond.
ANDERSON: So it's interesting timing that you report the revelations of this recent meeting, given that -- and I'm in region, sir, so this is very
pressing for all of us here -- that there have been warnings of an October surprise from the Trump administration and, with regard, Iran.
When you live in this region, you say, OK, October is over; we're into November.
Should we expect a surprise in November or even December?
There's 64 days to go.
Given what you've learned and what your sources have been telling you, what chance that there could still be a strike?
SANGER: Well, I think there is a chance of a strike somewhere. I think it would be unlikely that the president would choose to do Natanz.
But there have been episodic pushback against Iranian militia in Iraq. You saw the threat that Secretary of State Pompeo issued a while ago to close
the U.S. embassy in Iraq. That was an effort to get the Iraqis to really begin to counter the Iranian militias.
But these next 60 some-odd days could be some of the more dangerous days in recent American history because President Trump, having confronted and
failed at a number of these issues, Iran, North Korea and others, may be looking to try to change his legacy or his story about the legacy before he
leaves office.
And, you know, as Joe Biden keeps saying, we have one president at a time.
ANDERSON: Were a president to want to act in this part of the world, he would need the support of his Gulf allies. And I spoke to a number of
decision makers just recently about the potential for a surprise from the Trump administration.
These Gulf allies have been very vocal about ensuring that nobody missteps at this point; and although you continue to hear complaints from Riyadh
about Iran, you also hear the terms "deescalate, deescalate," when you talk to other Gulf leaders and decision makers in this region.
Your sense as we move out of a Trump administration and into a Biden administration about what might happen next with regard to Iran?
SANGER: Well, President-Elect Biden has been pretty clear that, if the Iranians are willing to move back to the 2015 accord, he would, too; which
would mean lifting a lot of the American sanctions and secondary sanctions in Europe.
And then trying to build out from there.
I think the big question is do the Iranians feel that they can take that?
Do they instead insist on some kind of reparations for lost oil sales, something they have talked about before?
Which I think would be very difficult for President Biden to give them, once he comes into office.
So the question is, could you get back to where we were 2.5 years ago?
[10:40:00]
SANGER: And do it before the Iranian parliamentary and presidential election, which is coming up just in June?
That seems to me to be a pretty tall order.
ANDERSON: Is it your sense that a Benjamin Netanyahu-led government in Israel is, at this point, looking for a message, a military message to
Tehran?
SANGER: I wouldn't be surprised. I don't have evidence that they are. But tomorrow Secretary Pompeo arrives in Israel to see Prime Minister
Netanyahu. It may be the last time they meet while President Obama (sic) and Secretary Pompeo are in office.
Netanyahu has often considered doing a strike and was frequently talked back from it during the Obama years and has no reason to believe that
Biden's view is different than Obama's was.
In some ways, this has echoes of the 2008 transition, when President Bush was about to hand off to President Obama. You may remember, at that time,
the Israelis came to President Bush and sought bunker-busting bombs, B52s, intelligence assets. And President Bush turned them down over the
objections of vice president Cheney, who later wrote in his memoirs he favored giving them what they wanted.
I could imagine a similar request from Prime Minister Netanyahu. It's a little bit late now. I'm not sure that President Trump could deliver. But I
could imagine Prime Minister Netanyahu deciding to act on his own on the basis of the IAEA report or other evidence that he cites.
And the only problem with that is it would start him off on a really bad foot with President-Elect Biden.
ANDERSON: Sir, pleasure having you on. Thank you for your thoughts and your analysis.
SANGER: Wonderful to be with you.
ANDERSON: And we will be back.
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