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U.S. Secretary of State Says Russian Aggression Will Be Met by United Response; U.S. and Allies Seeking Diplomatic Path out of Russia Crisis. Aired 10-10:40a ET
Aired January 20, 2022 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[10:00:00]
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LARRY MADOWO, CNN HOST (voice-over): America's top diplomat tries to find a common approach for all the NATO allies as Russia continues its tough
talk aimed at Ukraine.
A terrible allegation: investigators say Pope Benedict knew about the abusing of children when he was archbishop and failed to act.
And the coldest winter in 40 years puts an added burden on refugees in Syria, Lebanon and Jordan. We'll have a live report.
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MADOWO: I'm Larry Madowo in Atlanta. Welcome to CONNECT THE WORLD.
United or divided: divisions are emerging among the U.S., NATO and the European Union over how to respond to the looming threat of a Russian
invasion of Ukraine. And America's top diplomat is tasked with trying to find consensus.
Secretary of state Antony Blinken is in Germany right now, on a mission complicated by U.S. President Joe Biden's prediction Wednesday that it
Russia will move into Ukraine in some capacity.
His comments have sparked varying reactions across Europe and alarm in Ukraine. Ukraine's president tweeted last hour, "There are no minor
incursions and small nations. Just as there are no minor casualties and little grief from the loss of loved ones.
"I say this as a president of a great power," and he added the flag of Ukraine.
Blinken for his part is playing down consent (ph) of any disagreement among allies. Here's what he said a short while ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTONY BLINKEN, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We have been very clear throughout: if any Russian military forces move across the Ukrainian
border and commit new acts of aggression against Ukraine, that will be met with a swift, severe, united response from the United States and our allies
and partners.
We have been working very closely together to make sure that we effectively define our coordinated response. And that's exactly what we've been doing
and I think doing that very effectively.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADOWO: Our Nic Robertson has more on President Biden's comments on Russia and Ukraine and reaction from Washington, Kiev and Moscow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): On the brink of a possible invasion, new satellite images show Russian troops and
armor (ph) massed less than 10 miles from Ukraine's border. President Joe Biden expecting an attack.
JOE BIDEN (D), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My guess is he will move in. He has to do something.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): On what to do about Putin's anticipated move, Biden appearing less sure how the U.S. and allies would respond.
BIDEN: It depends on what it does. It's one thing if it's a minor incursion and we end up having to fight about what to do and not do, et
cetera.
ROBERTSON (voice-over): The White House quick to clarify, invasion, cyber attack or paramilitary tactics will draw a united response, "If any Russian
military forces move across the Ukrainian border, that's a renewed invasion. And it will be met with a swift, severe and united response from
the United States and our allies."
Even so, Biden's apparent uncertainty drawing withering criticism in Kiev, one official calling it a green light to Putin to enter Ukraine at his
pleasure. The diplomatic wobble just as Ukraine's president was calming the country's nerves in a nationally televised address.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Our all our citizens, especially the elderly, need to understand this it. Everyone
needs to exhale, calm down, don't run for emergency supplies like buckwheat and matches.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Concern over allies' cohesion amplified by the French president, calling for separate E.U.-Russia talks and defense
policy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE (through translator): We need in Europe collectively to set our own requirements and make sure they are
respected. And we need to be in a position to make that happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON (voice-over): The European Commission president fast to right Macron's diplomatic doubts, insisting there is E.U. unity for any further
Russian attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
URSULA VAN DER LEYEN, PRESIDENT, EUROPEAN COMMISSION: We will respond with massive economic and financial sanctions. The transatlantic community
stands firm on this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[10:05:00]
ROBERTSON (voice-over): In Moscow, where officials repeatedly insist they are not about to attack anyone, Biden's invasion comments, not for the
first time, triggering a rebuff.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA ZAKHAROVA, RUSSIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY (through translator): We are convinced that the purpose of this campaign is to create an information
cover for the preparation of their own large-scale provocations, including military ones.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MADOWO: Nic Robertson is with us now from Moscow. And Fred Pleitgen is in Geneva, where tomorrow Antony Blinken and the Russian foreign secretary,
foreign minister Sergey Lavrov, will hold what the Kremlin calls "an incredibly important meeting."
Gentlemen, thank you for being here. We're expecting a speech from Antony Blinken on Ukraine and Russia. So if that happens, I might have to jump in.
But before that happens, Nic, the Ukrainian president just tweeted this a short while ago.
"We want to remind the great powers that there are no minor incursions and small nations, just as there are no minor casualties and little grief from
the loss of loved ones."
So it's a really pained response from the same man who is telling his citizens yesterday, don't panic. But it's clear that he didn't like the
diplomatic wobble, as you called it, from President Biden's remarks yesterday.
ROBERTSON: Yes, he's seeming to appeal to -- back to Washington to get the message together with European allies. We heard a similar statement from
the Ukrainian foreign minister as well, talking about there's no such thing as big or small incursions or full invasions, in the same way that there's
no such thing as half-aggression. There's either aggression or not aggression.
And the Ukrainians' very clear message to its friends in the United States and Europe is that Russia's posturing and position is aggression. So
whatever their action and however that should be interpreted by the international community, it's aggression.
And the president of Ukraine is saying it's going to cause casualties and loss and suffering.
So they want to firm up the support, the unity of that support, the clarity of the message because, all along, NATO, other U.S. officials as well, have
all been clear, sticking to that same narrative that we heard from Ursula van der Leyen, the European Commission president there, saying that there
will be, if Russia invades or takes aggressive action, there will be a clear and strong response.
I think Ukraine would like to see President Biden and everyone else get back on that page again and make that very clear message to President
Putin.
MADOWO: And part of the job for the Secretary Blinken has been to clean up those comments, just as the White House has been doing.
But, Fred, what is the mood music from where you are in Geneva?
Because the Russians are saying that the threat of sanctions is not helping reduce tensions and could be even further destabilizing.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they are calling any sort of talks of sanctions "hysteria;" they continue to say
time and again they have absolutely no interest and no desire and no plans to enter into Ukraine and to threaten that country in any way, shape or
form.
Now the U.S. has been saying and Ukraine has been saying as well, if that's the case, why are more than 100,000 Russian troops near the border?
And the Russians continuously say they believe that a lot of this is about their own security. They say that they believe some of the moves that have
been made by allied partners, by the United States and others, as the Russians put it, to essentially bring Ukraine, as they put it, into the
framework of NATO without it being formally a NATO country, that's something they fundamentally threatening to their own security.
I asked the deputy foreign minister about that yesterday and he said it has come to a point now where the Russians felt they needed to take this
action, bringing troops to the border region while at the same time still saying they don't want and don't have any sort of plans to invade.
That's one of the reasons why this meeting between Blinken and Lavrov is going to be extremely important, not just for the Russian side but for the
U.S. side as well because things are in a very dangerous place right now.
But at the same time, the meeting is very important because it does show that both sides are willing to give diplomacy a chance. One of the things
that we recall is that, after the first round of talks that were led by the Russian side, the Russians said afterwards they said they were so
disappointed they weren't even sure --
(CROSSTALK)
MADOWO: I'm afraid I have to jump in, because we're going to go it the U.S. secretary of state Antony Blinken, who is giving a speech in Berlin
about the standoff.
BLINKEN: Russia has repeatedly turned away from agreements that have kept the peace across the continent for decades. And it continues to take aim at
NATO, a defensive, voluntary alliance, that protects nearly a billion near people across Europe and North America and at the governing principles of
international peace and security that we all have a stake in defending.
[10:10:00]
BLINKEN: Those principles, established in the wake of two world wars and a cold war, reject the right of one country to change the borders of another
by force, to dictate to another the policies and pursuits of the choices it makes, including with whom to associate or to exert a sphere of influence
that would subjugate sovereign neighbors to its will.
To allow Russia to violate those principles with impunity would drag us all back to a much more dangerous and unstable time, when this continent and
this city were divided in two, separated by no man's lands, patrolled by soldiers with the threat of all-out war hanging over everyone's heads.
It would also send a message to others around the world that these principles are expendable and that, too, would have catastrophic results.
That's why the United States and our allies and partners in Europe have been so focused on what's happening in Ukraine. It's bigger than a conflict
between two countries. It's bigger than Russia and NATO.
It's a crisis with global consequences. And it requires global attention and action. Here today, among this rapidly unfolding situation, I'd like to
try to cut through to the facts of the matter.
To begin, Russia claims that this crisis is about its national defense, about military exercises, weapons systems and security agreements. Now if
that's true, we can resolve things peacefully and diplomatically.
There are steps we can take, the United States, Russia, the countries of Europe, to increase transparency, reduce risks, advance arms control and
build trust. We have done this successfully in the past and we can do it again.
And indeed, it's what we set out to do last week, in the discussions that we put forward at the strategic stability dialogue between the United
States and Russia, at the NATO Russia Council and at the OSCE.
At those meetings and many others, the United States and our European allies and partners have repeatedly reached out to Russia with offers of
diplomacy in the spirit of reciprocity.
So far, our readiness to engage in good faith has been rebuffed because, in truth, this crisis is not primarily about weapons or military bases; it's
about the sovereignty and self-determination of Ukraine and all states.
And at its core, it's about Russia's rejection of a post-Cold War Europe that is whole, free and at peace.
For all our profound concerns with Russia's aggression, provocations, political interference, including against the United States, the Biden
administration has made clear our willingness to pursue a more stable, predictable relationship; to negotiate arms control agreements, like the
renewal of New START, and launch our strategic stability dialogue; to pursue common action to address the climate crisis and work in common cause
to revive the Iran nuclear deal.
And we appreciate how Russia has engaged with us in these efforts. And despite Moscow's reckless threats against Ukraine and dangerous military
mobilization, despite its obfuscation and disinformation, the United States, together with our allies and partners, have offered a diplomatic
path out of this contrived crisis.
And that's why I have returned to Europe; Ukraine yesterday, Germany here today, Switzerland tomorrow, where I will meet with Russian prime minister
Lavrov and once again seek diplomatic solutions.
The United States would greatly prefer those to be the case and certainly prefer diplomacy to the alternatives. We know our partners in Europe feel
the same way. So do people and families across the continent, because they know that they will bear the greatest burden if Russia rejects diplomacy.
And we look to countries beyond Europe, to the international community as a whole, to make clear the cost to Russia if it seeks conflict and to stand
up for all the principles that protect all of us.
So let's look plainly at what's at stake right now, who will actually be affected and who is responsible.
In 1991, millions of Ukrainians went to the polls to say that Ukraine would no longer be ruled by autocrats but would govern itself. In 2014, the
Ukrainian people stood up to defend their choice for a democratic and European future.
They have been living under the shadow of Russia occupation in Crimea and aggression in Donbas ever since.
The war in Eastern Ukraine, orchestrated by Russia with proxies that it leads, trains, supplies and finances, well, that's killed more than 14,000
Ukrainians.
[10:15:00]
BLINKEN: Thousands more have been wounded. Entire towns have been destroyed. Nearly 1.5 billion (ph) Ukrainians have fled their homes to
escape the violence. For Ukrainians in Crimea and the Donbas, the repression is acute.
Russia blocks Ukrainians from crossing the line of contact, cutting them off from the rest of the country. Hundreds of them are being held as
political prisoners by Russia and its proxies; hundreds of families don't know if their loved ones are alive or dead.
And the humanitarian needs are growing: nearly 3 million Ukrainians, including 1 million elderly people and half a million children, urgently
need food, shelter and other life-saving assistance.
But of course even Ukrainians, who live far away from the fighting, are affected by it. This is their country. These are their fellow citizens. And
nowhere in Ukraine are people free from Russia's malign activities.
Moscow has sought to undermine Ukraine's democratic institutions, interfere in Ukraine's politics and elections, blocked energy and commerce to
intimidate Ukraine's leaders and pressure its citizens, use propaganda and disinformation to sow mistrust, launched cyberattacks on the country's
critical infrastructure.
The campaign to destabilize Ukraine has been relentless. And now Russia is poised to go even further. The human toll of renewed aggression by Russia
would be by many magnitudes higher than what we have seen to date.
Russia justifies its actions by claiming that Ukraine somehow poses a threat to its security. This turns reality on its head.
Whose troops are surrounding whom?
Which country has claimed another's territory through force?
Which military is many times the size of the other?
Which country has nuclear weapons?
Ukraine isn't the aggressor here. Ukraine is just trying to survive.
No one should be surprised if Russia instigates a provocation or incident and then tries to use it to justify military intervention, hoping that, by
the time the world realizes the ruse, it will be too late.
There's been a lot of speculation about President Putin's true intentions. But we don't actually have to guess. He's told us repeatedly. He's laying
the groundwork for an invasion because he doesn't believe that Ukraine is a sovereign nation.
He said it flat out to President Bush in 2008 and I quote, "Ukraine isn't a real country."
He said in 2020 and I quote, "Ukrainians and Russians are one and the same people."
Just a few days ago, the Russian ministry of foreign affairs tweeted in celebration of the anniversary of Ukraine and Russia's unification in the
year 1654. That's a pretty unmistakable message, this week of all weeks.
And so the stakes for Ukraine come more fully into view. This is not only about a possible invasion and war; it's about whether Ukraine has a right
to exist as a sovereign nation. It's about whether Ukraine has a right to be a democracy.
This hasn't stopped with Ukraine. All the former Soviet Socialist republics became sovereign nations in 1990 and 1991. One of them is Georgia. Russia
invaded it in 2008; 13 years later, nearly 300,000 Georgians are still displaced from their homes.
And then there's Moldova. Russia maintains troops and munitions there against the will of its people.
If Russia invades and occupies Ukraine, what's next?
Certainly, Russia's efforts to turn its neighbors into puppet state, to control their activities, to crack down on any spark of democratic
expression will intensify.
Once the principles of sovereignty and self-determination are thrown out, you revert to a world in which the rules we shape together over decades
erode and then vanish.
And that emboldened some governments to do whatever it takes to get whatever they want, even if that means shutting down another country's
internet, cutting off heating oil in the dead of winter or sending in tanks, all tactics Russia has used against other countries in recent years.
That's why governments and citizens everywhere should care about what's happening in Ukraine. It may seem like a distant regional dispute or yet
another example of Russian bullying. But at stake, again, are principles that have made the world safer and more stable for decades.
Now alternatively, Russia says the problem is NATO. On its face, that's absurd. NATO didn't invade Georgia; NATO didn't invade Ukraine; Russia did.
[10:20:00]
BLINKEN: NATO is a defensive alliance with no aggressive intent toward Russia. To the contrary, efforts by NATO to engage Russia have gone on for
years and, unfortunately, been rejected.
For example, in the NATO Russia Founding Act, which was intended to build trust and increases consultations and cooperation, NATO pledged to
significantly reduce its military strength in Eastern Europe. And it's done just that.
Russia pledged to exercise similar restraint in its conventional force deployments in Europe. Again, instead, it invaded two countries.
Russia says that NATO is encircling Russia. In fact, only 6 percent of Russia's borders touch NATO countries. Compare that to Ukraine, which is
now genuinely being encircled by Russian troops.
In the Baltic countries and Poland, there are around 5,000 NATO troops, who aren't from those countries. And their presence is rotational, not
permanent. Russia has put at least 20 times as many on Ukraine's borders.
President Putin says that NATO is, and I quote, "parking missiles on the porch of our house." But it's Russia that has developed ground launches
from (INAUDIBLE) range missiles that can reach Germany and nearly all NATO European territory despite Russia being a party to the Intermediate Range
Nuclear Forces Treaty that prohibited these missiles.
In fact, Russia's violation led to the termination of that treaty, which has left us all less safe. It's also worth noting that, though Russia is
not a member of NATO, it, like many non-NATO countries, has actually benefited from the peace, stability and prosperity that NATO has helped
make possible.
Many of us remember vividly the tensions and fears of the Cold War era, steps that the Soviet Union and the West took toward each other over those
years, to build understanding and establish agreed-upon rules for how our countries would act, were welcomed by people everywhere because they turned
down the heat and made military conflicts less likely.
Those breakthroughs are the result of a great deal of hard work by people on all sides. Now we're seeing that hard work come undone.
For example, in 1975, all OSCE countries, including Russia, signed the Helsinki Final Act, which established 10 guiding principles for
international behavior, including respect for national sovereignty, refraining from the threat or use of force, the inviolability of frontiers,
the territorial integrity of states, the peaceful settlement of disputes and nonintervention in internal affairs.
Russia has since violated every single one of those principles in Ukraine and has repeatedly made clear its disdain for them.
In 1990, the OSCE countries, including Russia, agreed to the Vienna Document, a set of confidence and security building measures to increase
transparency and predictability about military activities, including military exercises.
Now Russia selectively follows those provisions. For example, it holds large-scale military exercises that it claims are exempt from the
notification and observation requirements of the Vienna Document, because they are conducted without prior notice to the troops involved.
Last fall, Russia conducted military exercises in Belarus with more than 100,000 troops. It's impossible that those exercises were no notice. And
Moscow has failed to provide information on its military forces in Georgia, to notify the OSCE of its massive troop buildup around Ukraine last spring,
to answer Ukraine's questions about what it was doing, all of which are required under that 1990 agreement.
In 1994, in a pact known as the Budapest Memorandum, Russia, the United States and Britain committed to -- and I quote -- "respect the independence
and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine and to refrain from the threat or use of force against the country."
Those promises helped persuade Ukraine to give up their nuclear arsenal, inherited after the dissolution of the USSR and which was then the third
largest nuclear arsenal in the world.
Well, we need only ask the people living in Crimea and Donbas what happened to those pledges.
There are many more examples I could cite. They all support the same conclusion: one country has repeatedly gone back on its commitments and
ignored the very rules it agreed to, despite others working hard to bring it along at every step.
That country is Russia.
Of course, Russia is entitled to protect itself. And the United States and Europe are prepared to discuss Russia's security concerns and how we can
address them in a reciprocal way.
Russia has concerns about its security and actions that it says the United States and Europe and NATO are taking that somehow threaten that security.
We have profound concerns about the actions that Russia is taking to threaten our security.
[10:25:00]
BLINKEN: We can talk about all of that. But we will not treat the principles of sovereignty or territorial integrity enshrined in the U.N.
Charter, affirmed by the U.N. Security Council as negotiable.
And if I could speak to the Russian people, I would say to them, you deserve to live with security and dignity like all people everywhere. And
no one, not Ukraine, not the United States, not NATO or its members is seeking to jeopardize that.
But what really risks security is a pointless war with your neighbors in Ukraine, with all the costs that come with it; most of all, for the young
people, who will risk or even give their lives to it.
At a time when COVID is running throughout the planet, we have a climate crisis, we need to rebuild the global economy, all of which demand so much
of our attention and resources, is this really what you need?
A violent conflict that will likely drag on.
Would that actually make your lives more secure, more prosperous, more full of opportunity?
And just think of what a great nation like Russia could achieve if it dedicated its resources, especially the remarkable talent of its human
resources, its people, toward the most significant challenges of our time.
We, in the United States, our partners in Europe, we would welcome that. Tomorrow I will meet with Foreign Minister Lavrov and I will urge that
Russia find its way back to the agreements it swore to over the decades and to working with the United States and our allies and partners in Europe to
write a future that can assure our mutual security but also make clear that that possibility will be extinguished by Russian aggression against
Ukraine, which would also do the very thing Moscow complains about: bolster the NATO defensive alliance.
These are difficult issues we're facing. Resolving them won't happen quickly. I certainly don't expect we will solve them in Geneva tomorrow
but we can advance our mutual understanding.
And that combined with deescalation of Russia's military buildup on Ukraine's borders, that can turn us away from this crisis in the weeks
ahead.
At the same time, the United States will continue to work with our allies and partners in NATO, the European Union, the OSCE, the G7, the United
Nations, throughout the international community to make clear that there are two paths before Russia: the path to diplomacy, that can lead to peace
and security, and the path of aggression, that will lead only to conflict, severe consequences, international condemnation.
The United States and our allies will continue to stand with Ukraine and to stand ready to meet Russia on either path.
It's no accident that I'm offering these thoughts here in Berlin. Perhaps no place in the world experienced the divisions of the Cold War more than
this city. Here, President Kennedy declared all free people citizens of Berlin.
Here, President Reagan urged Mr. Gorbachev to tear down that wall. It seems a time that President Putin wants to return to that era. We hope not.
But if he chooses to do so, he will be met with the same determination, the same unity that past generations of leaders and citizens brought to bear,
to advance peace, to advance freedom, to advance human dignity across Europe and around the world.
Thanks so much for listening.
MADOWO: U.S. secretary of state Antony Blinken wrapping up his speech in Berlin, giving some reactions to what he believes Russia is trying to do.
He says he doesn't think Russia believes Ukraine wants to be a sovereign state.
And he says Russia has two paths, one of diplomacy, which would lead to peace and prosperity, or aggression, and which will lead to severe
consequences and international condemnation.
And he also spoke directly to the Russian people in English. So not sure how many Russians will actually get to hear it and if the Russian state-run
media especially will be carrying that and told them that Russia is a great nation.
And if they could channel all the great resources into dealing with the great challenges of our time, they could be really great. I want to bring
back Nic Robertson, who is in Moscow, and Fred Pleitgen in Geneva, for reaction to this speech that he said was in Berlin deliberately because
Germany really went through the brunt of the Cold War.
And it is the perfect background to be giving the speech to the Russian people, that they need to deescalate and try to find diplomacy in this
standoff with Ukraine.
ROBERTSON: I think when you hear diplomats give speeches like this, like Secretary Blinken has, that are somber, that are slow in their cadence --
[10:30:00]
ROBERTSON: -- and that set out what he has set out -- not just the U.S. position, as we have heard before, but really he is making the case to the
Russians specifically but I think he is making a global case here.
He's making a case to people around the world, who may just be waking up to the fact that there really is the potential for a conflict in Ukraine. And
President Biden's words really teeing that up last night, that he thinks President Putin may be on the verge of an invasion of Ukraine.
Secretary of state Antony Blinken is laying out what's at stake here for the world. There is democracy at stake; this is something that affects
everyone. If democracy is essentially the options to choose democracy over a sovereign state like Ukraine, essentially extinguished by Russia's
actions, that affects not just Ukraine; that affects the potential for other countries.
Essentially, the world cannot step back and watch this happen. The United States, NATO, European partners cannot step back and watch this happen.
So what he's making the case for here, he laid it out very clearly, in the end, saying the choices were for President Putin to choose diplomacy or the
other option that's there for him, if he so chooses.
He's making the case that this is Russia's choices right now, that whatever happens, that it's Russia's decision. So if there is a war, if there is
conflict, this is on President Putin's head. It's his decision.
And he's trying to get people to understand that this affects them. There may be sacrifices ahead, big sacrifices all around and that people should
understand what they are about.
MADOWO: That's exactly right.
And Fred, he mentioned that we may not solve all the problems in Geneva tomorrow but the campaign to destabilize Ukraine has been relentless and
Russia must turn back from that or there will be severe consequences.
PLEITGEN: Yes, he has reiterated that over the past couple days, as he's been in Ukraine and Berlin, meeting with the German foreign minister. But I
think one of the most important things I heard is Blinken really underlined the importance of diplomacy in all of this.
Of course, on the eve of the meeting tomorrow with the Russian foreign minister, I do think there were certain things that have been said over the
past, maybe 18 hours, 24 hours, that have sort of brought this back on a track, where diplomacy might actually have a chance.
One of the things we heard from the spokesperson from the Kremlin this morning is that they listened to Biden's speech yesterday and there were
things they liked in that speech, they believe gave them openings.
For instance, when President Biden in his press conference yesterday said that there could potentially be an agreement on the nondeployment of
strategic weapons in places like Ukraine, if there were moves by Russia.
President Biden also said, at this point in time, in the near term future, Ukraine would not be admitted to NATO or doesn't really have a chance of
being admitted to NATO. That's something that the Russians said they heard with a lot of interest.
But that for them is not enough. There are issues right now between the U.S. and Russia, between NATO and Russia, that seem very difficult to
overcome. But certainly, with the fact that you have two top diplomats meeting here tomorrow and Blinken obviously gearing up for that, it is
going to be very, very important.
I think he was laying the groundwork a little bit for that in that speech as well.
MADOWO: And he said this is not just a conflict between two countries. This will have global consequences.
Gentlemen, stay with me. I'm going come back to you after this quick break.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[10:35:00]
(MUSIC PLAYING)
MADOWO: Welcome back. I'm Larry Madowo. You're watching CONNECT THE WORLD.
The U.S. secretary of state Antony Blinken says there will be a united response to the threat of Russia invading Ukraine. We just heard Blinken
speak in Germany, framing the Russia-Ukraine standoff as an existential global crisis, with the principles of sovereignty and territorial integrity
at stake.
Blinken's task is complicated by President Biden's comments predicting Russia will move into Ukraine and suggesting that allies may not all agree
with how to respond to a, quote, "minor incursion."
Let's continue with this conversation right now with Ravi Agrawal, the editor-in-chief at "Foreign Policy" magazine.
Thank you so much for being here. We just heard from the secretary of state, saying this is about the territorial integrity of Ukraine. He says
that Vladimir Putin doesn't believe Russia (sic) is a real country and this will be defended because the people of Ukraine have a right to self-
determination and nobody should threaten that, not even Russia.
Is that a good framing of why we have this standoff?
RAVI AGRAWAL, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "FOREIGN POLICY": Well, it's certainly the American side of the framing. I think what Antony Blinken set out to do
here and rather effectively, was to lay out whatever happens next is on Russia.
He tried to make clear the reason we are at this point now is there are, in fact, 100,000 Russian troops at Ukraine's doorstep. Ukraine itself has said
nothing more than the fact that it wants democracy. It wants eventually one day to join NATO. And that's what NATO is about.
Anyone who chooses to join can do so, if the other NATO members want that to happen. So in a sense, the way Blinken framed all of this was part of
the United States' larger strategy of supporting democracies around the world and aligning them against autocracies.
And I think that framing right now, as Blinken meets his counterparts in Berlin, as he did in Kiev and as he sets up for this big meeting in about
24 hours with his Russian counterpart, is really important.
Because as it stands, we still don't know what Russia actually wants to do. There's a strain of thought really that it is in Putin's advantage to keep
everyone guessing.
No one really understands what he wants to do next or what are the things that would lead to him deciding either way whether to invade Ukraine or
not. So in laying everything out clearly in terms of what the United States wants, what Ukraine wants, Blinken was trying to put a decision on Putin.
MADOWO: I want to play for you something the British prime minister said this morning about the potential for a Russian invasion and trying to get
all the allies to speak together. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BORIS JOHNSON, U.K. PRIME MINISTER: As you know, there was a Quints discussion -- France, Germany, the U.K., Italy and the United States about
this. And be in no doubt that if Russia were to make any kind of incursion into Ukraine, of any scale whatever, I think that that would be a disaster
not just for Ukraine but for Russia.
It would be a disaster for the world. And the U.K. stands squarely behind the sovereignty and integrity of Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADOWO: He didn't mention President Biden directly but we can ascertain that he was talking about Biden's comments yesterday.
[10:40:00]
AGRAWAL: Yes, exactly. I think that was an implicit reference to that.
Biden, to remind our viewers, in a sense made what many are calling an unforced error by saying -- the U.S.' response to a potential Russian
action would be different if it was a minor incursion versus an invasion. And those differences are real.
Those are ongoing live discussions between European countries, NATO members. It's meant to be between them.
And one would expect the U.S. to present a more united front to Russia. That's probably what we're hearing pushback from, from the U.K. and other
countries. And we'll hear more of that in the coming days, I think, as the world tries to, most of all, prevent Russia from invading.
MADOWO: We'll have to leave it there. Many thanks, Ravi Agrawal.
Coming up, more startling images from Tonga emerging now. Aid is finally arriving as many Tongans abroad get in touch with loved ones. One Olympian
isn't waiting around to help. We speak with him next.
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MADOWO: We want to show you the latest images from Tonga after it was battered by a volcano eruption and tsunami last weekend. Downed
communication services mean many abroad are desperately waiting for news of loved ones. One of those is Olympian Pita Taufatofua, who sat down with my
colleague, Amanda Davies.
Have a listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PITA TAUFATOFUA, TONGAN OLYMPIAN: When you're there in Tonga, everything lush, it's green, it's blue, it's full of life. But you look at it now, it
looks like a 1910 black and white film. Everything is just covered in ash.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADOWO: Amanda Davies joins me now with more on this remarkable story.
Everybody knows him because, at every opening of the Olympics, he's usually the flag bearer and gets a lot of attention. But he's doing something so
powerful with that attention.
AMANDA DAVIES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's normally at this point three weeks out from an Olympics that I'm speaking to Pita about his sporting
ambitions and his role in the opening ceremony.
But with the events in Tonga last weekend, his attention, his focus, understandably, is of something far more important. He's one of those
people currently in Australia, having not had any contact from his family. He still hasn't managed to connect with his father.
But he set up a GoFundMe page, which so far has raised $550,000 Australian. They are aiming for $1 million. For him, it's not just about fundraising.
It's about awareness because, we suspect, we fear the worst in terms of the damage is still yet to come.
MADOWO: Such brilliant work.
We're back after the break with WORLD SPORT.
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