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Connect the World
Woman Recalls Harrowing Experience in Mariupol; Palestinians: More Than 150 Injured in Jerusalem Clashes; Jerusalem on Edge as Violence Flares at Holy Site; Ukrainians in Anguish over Destruction of their Communities; Ukrainian Refugees Find Safe Haven on Estonian Ship; Pakistan's Troubles Mired in Dynasty Politics. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired April 15, 2022 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[11:00:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST, CONNECT THE WORLD: Well, this hour it's been more than 50 days since Russia launched its unprovoked attack on Ukraine and
Western leaders particularly in the U.S. are warning that this conflict could be entering a bloody new phase that is thousands have already been
killed, and millions have become refugees.
I'm Becky Anderson. Hello and welcome back to "Connect the World". Well, the U.S. believes Ukraine's claim that it sounds Russia's Moskva warship is
credible. But two senior U.S. officials with knowledge of the intelligence tell CNN Washington does not believe the ship was carrying nuclear weapons
when it sank.
Russia had said there was a fire on board that set off ammunition damaging the whole. Ukraine now claims Russia is retaliating stepping up missile
attacks in the south of the country. Ukraine says at least two people were killed in front of this church in Mykolaiv which is near the Black Sea.
Of course the Ukrainian military says cluster bombs were used. Also in the south the spokesperson of the Ukrainian Defense Ministry says Russian long
range bombers hit the besieged City of Mariupol. He said this is the first time that TU-22M bomber has been used in this assault on Ukraine.
And in the east, there's heavy shelling along the front lines in the Donetsk region. The head of the region's military administration says that
they are working to get civilians out of Maryinka, a town that has suffered extensive damage from Russia's bombardment.
And Severodonestk is the eastern most town still under Ukrainian control volunteers braving the daily shelling to bring food to more than 20,000
people who are still living there and is down from a pre-war population of 100,000. Let's start this out with Ben Wedeman and this report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Denise (ph) loads food in his car for delivery run. The supplies sorted by
volunteers in this old warehouse were donated from around Ukraine and abroad. Denise was a musician before the war.
Severodonestk is the city furthest East under Ukrainian government control and under constant bombardment from Russian forces nearby. The supplies
Denise and other volunteers deliver are what keep this city alive. Two missiles landed outside - as decrepit Soviet era apartment building the
strain of living under the shelling more than she can take.
It's hard she says I can't stay in this room. I'm so afraid I want it to be quiet and calm again. With Russian forces massing in the east there will be
no quiet. There will be no calm. Sitting on a hospital bed - recounts the night her house was hit.
I was in the kitchen and it started she says her home is now in ruins. More than 20 corpses lie scattered in the hospital's morgue, wrapped in sheets
and blankets awaiting burial. On the outskirts of the city more evidence of the toll war has taken.
WEDEMAN (on camera): This is a hastily dug graveyard that was started since the war began. Just look at the dates 7th of April 9th of April, 3rd of
April 4th of April it goes on and on and on. And more graves will soon be filled Ben Wedeman, CNN, Severodonestk, Eastern Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Ben's reporting for you. Well, we were talking earlier about the Moskva which was sunk or has sunk. This was of course part of the fleet
blocking the Southern City of Mariupol. Russia today claiming more advances in that southern port city a setback to fighters who had been vowing to
keep it in Ukrainian hands.
And as we mentioned a moment ago the Ukrainian Defense Ministry said today that for the first time Russia used long range bombers to strike the city.
Well, it's been bombed and besieged for much of the war and it is running out of food. CNN's Ed Lavandera caught up with a young woman who made it a
mission to help her neighbors before she escaped within a hair of her life.
[11:05:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): When the first bomb struck Mariupol, Katya Erskaya thought her most effective weapon would be a gentle
smile and the ability to calm terrified families. She lived in an underground shelter, coordinating relief supplies for the trapped civilians
of this besieged city.
LAVANDERA (on camera): So you're watching your city get bombed and destroyed. People are being killed. You decide not to leave but to help.
KATYA ERSKAYA, MARIUPOL RESIDENT: It's horrible; its animus didn't allow even children to go out from the city.
LAVANDERA (voice over): Day by day, the video Katya captured showed life in Mariupol unraveling. She lost touch with the outside world. None of her
family and friends outside the city knew if she was alive or dead. Life here was falling into an abyss.
ERSKAYA: It was like middle age.
LAVANDERA (on camera): It's like the middle Ages.
ERSKAYA: Yes.
LAVANDERA (on camera): It's almost like you could feel yourself running out of time. There was only so much longer you could stay in Mariupol.
ERSKAYA: I thought I will never go from Mariupol until the end.
LAVANDERA (voice over): On March 16, Katya evacuated, she recorded two short videos on her way out just before seeing a family walking on the side
of the road, a mother, grandmother and two young girls.
ERSKAYA: We had two, three places in our car, and we saw this family and we decided to help them.
LAVANDERA (voice over): One of the Russian military checkpoints they stopped in front of a soldier.
ERSKAYA: And he's show us go out and read gun to tone on our car. And after that he began to shoot.
LAVANDERA (on camera): One of the bullets pierced the car over her head. But in the backseat was 11 year old - shot in the face, the Russians
realizing their mistake sent the girl to a hospital. Katya now separated, traveled on without knowing if the young girl survived until.
LAVANDERA (voice over): CNN found - in the basement of a children's hospital in eastern Ukraine after surviving lifesaving surgery.
[09:35:00]
LAVANDERA (voice over): for Katya the relief is overwhelmed by the horrors of what she witnessed.
ERSKAYA: I saw a lot of dead people a lot of common grace on the street for example in - and I started to believe that they're crazy because they were
like maniacs.
LAVANDERA (on camera): They were maniacs to you.
ERSKAYA: Yes, they're really crazy, like Nazis in the Second World War.
LAVANDERA (voice over): After escaping, Katya remembered the videos she recorded before the Russians ravaged Mariupol. Ukrainians is protesting
outside the now famous theatre that in a matter of weeks would be the site of one of the most grotesque bombings in this war.
The theater still intact, the city's buildings unscathed, she sees the peaceful faces of families and children. The video is hard to watch. Are
these people alive or left in makeshift graves around the city? Katya Erskaya doesn't know. And for her, there's only one way to deal with this
haunting reality.
ERSKAYA: I decided that I will cry only once the Ukrainian gets victory.
LAVANDERA (voice over): Ed Lavandera CNN, Odessa, Ukraine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Let me get you to CNN's Jake Tapper, who is in the Ukrainian Capital, where he has just spoken with the country's president, good to
speak to you, Jake. You've been talking to President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. What did he tell you?
JAKE TAPPER, CNN ANCHOR, THE LEAD: Well, you know, we had a far and wide ranging interview at the Presidential Palace just a few minutes ago. One of
the things I asked him about was remarks made yesterday by the Director of the Central Intelligence Agency in the United States Bill Burns.
Burns said that, based on their analysis and Russian desperation, they are not ruling out the possibility that Vladimir Putin might order the use of
tactical or low yield nuclear weapons against Ukrainians in Ukraine in this war, so that was something that I wanted to ask Zelenskyy about.
And interestingly, it was one of the handful of answers that he gave in English instead of Ukrainian obviously wanting to speak directly to the
English speaking world about it. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER (on camera): The Director of the CIA warned that he's worried Putin might use a tactical nuclear weapon in this fight, are you worried?
[11:10:00]
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Not only me, I think we're all over the world, all the countries have to be worried. Because, you know
that it can be not real information, but it can be the truth. Because when they began to speak about one or another battles or involves enemies or
nuclear weapons or some chemical, you know, issues, chemical weapons, they should do they could do.
I mean, they can for them, life of the people nothing. That's why we should think not be afraid. I mean that not be afraid be ready. But that is not
the question for to Ukraine and not only for Ukraine for all the world? I think so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
TAPPER: So there you heard it, Becky, he said not only should Ukraine be worried the whole world should be worried about Putin possibly using a
tactical or low yield nuclear weapon. He said that the Ukrainians are not afraid, but they are prepared.
And his larger argument was that Vladimir Putin has such a nihilistic lack of regard for human life that Putin using a nuclear weapon wouldn't
surprise him at all, Becky.
ANDERSON: The Russians down important and also symbolic assets at this point, the Moskva ship sunk in the Black Sea. And there are conflicting
reports, Jake, about what happened with that. Did you speak to President Zelenskyy about that? And if so what did he tell you?
TAPPER: I did. He was kind of cagey about it, to be honest, basically saying that history would record what had happened there. I asked him to
weigh in. And not only that, if he would provide any evidence for the Ukrainian claim that it was the use of to land to see Neptune missiles that
downed that that ship.
But the larger issue was that it was a big failure and a big defeat for the Russians. But no, he didn't. He didn't claim ownership for it, which is I
to be honest, kind of surprising, given the fact that it's such a propaganda victory one way or another.
And as I'm sure your viewers know this ship is the very same one that on the first day of the war when those Ukrainian soldiers were on Snake
Island, and they were told to surrender and they said Russian warship go - yourself. It's the same ship. That is now - as it were at the bottom of the
Black Sea.
ANDERSON: Yes, absolutely. Listen Jake because I was listening to Zelenskyy speak there to you in English. It reminded me once again, how statesmen
like this guy is, with such a lag until this war of experience in politics, just describe how he was when you met him?
TAPPER: He was determined. He was defiant. He was charming. We started the interview - before the interview began I just asked him how his family was.
And he told me about his kids. And he and I both have teenage daughters. So we bonded a little bit about how little regard our daughters have for their
dads.
But he was very human and, and very nice, but obviously very, very focused. He got emotional a few times during the interview, when I talked to him
about civilian loss of life. It obviously is something that's been weighing on him very heavily. But to be quite candid, I mean, he was I've
interviewed a lot of world leaders as, as you have Becky.
He was pretty impressive. He was like, he was smart. He was eloquent. He was proud. He was diplomatic when he needed to be I asked him about
Emmanuel Macron basically saying that President Biden, using the word genocide was an unnecessary escalation.
That seemed an easy opportunity for him to take a shot at Macron if he wanted to, but he just expressed disagreement. He didn't he didn't feel
like that was necessary to take a shot. So, you know, I found it pretty impressive.
ANDERSON: Fascinating. Good to get that interview. I know that there's a lot more of that on "The Lead" later today. Jake it is good to have you
carry on the good work, mate so good to have you there in Ukraine Jake's interview with President Zelenskyy today on "The Lead" at 4 pm Eastern that
is 9 pm here in London and the full interview in a special hour of State of the Union on Sunday at 2 pm London time.
All right later in this show, you're watching "Connect the World" with me Becky Anderson, of course. I'll speak to the Ukrainian Novelist to Oksana
Zabuzhko about her powerful speech urging the European Parliament to move past their rhetoric and do more to stop this war on Ukraine.
[11:15:00]
ANDERSON: And violent clashes at the Al Aqsa Mosque compound in Jerusalem why Israeli security forces say they had to act and the criticism that
their response is receiving not just in the region but around the world?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: Tensions high in Jerusalem today after a new round of clashes between Palestinians and Israeli police at the Al Aqsa Mosque compound.
Let's tune in Red Crescent reporting more than 150 people injured in clashes with Israeli security forces. Now police made hundreds of arrests
at the mosque.
They say the violence erupted early this morning with young Palestinians setting off fireworks and throwing stones security forces they say
responded with stun grenades and rubber bullets. Well, video posted on social media shows that Israeli soldier aggressively pushing older
Palestinian worshippers.
My next guest was in the crowd praying at the Al Aqsa Mosque when the clashes broke out. Dr. Mustafa Barghouti is a Palestinian Parliament Member
and President of the Palestinian Initiative in 2007. He served as Minister of Information in the Palestinian Unity Government.
He shot this video clip today at the mosque compound Dr. Barghouti joining me now via Skype from Ramallah. Just describe if you will, what you
witnessed at the compound today?
DR. MUSTAFA BARGHOUTI, PRESIDENT, PALESTINIAN NATIONAL INITIATIVE: Well, what happened Becky is really unacceptable, it's a crime. And it's not
confrontation between two sides, the Israeli army decided to attack the mosque at 5:30 in the morning, while peaceful worshipers were praying.
And they immediately attacked people and trying to enforce them out of the mosque. And that attack continued from 5:30 to 10 am, during which time
they injured more than 160 people. The youngest was 15-years-old the oldest was 79-years-old. These people received very serious injuries in the brain,
in the skull, in the face, some of them one of them lost his eye. 20 of them are under operations now.
And I visited them now in the hospital and some of them are in the intensive care, some are receiving still surgery. It's very dangerous, what
happened was unjustified in every possible way.
ANDERSON: And you were on the ground? In response to what we have seen today, Israel's Foreign Minister released a statement and I do just want to
read out a part of it, "Israel is committed to freedom of worship for people of all faiths in Jerusalem and our goal is to enable peaceful prayer
for believers during the Ramadan holiday.
[11:20:00]
ANDERSON: The riots as they refer to them this morning on the Temple Mount are unacceptable and go against the spirit of the religions we believe in
and the reports suggesting that young Palestinians setting off fireworks and throwing stones forced security forces to respond with stun grenades
and rubber bullets, your response?
DR. BARGHOUTI: Well, as usual, according to Israelis, Palestinians are always the aggressors, and even when they are the victim. They are the ones
to be blamed. I was in the mosque after the attack. There were lots of prayers - there were thousands of people.
Nobody attacked the Israeli army. It was the Israeli army who continued to shoot at people. So in my opinion, there is no justification for that. Let
me tell you that he speaks about freedom of religion. I was turned away from crashing to the mosque three times before I managed to get in without
their knowledge.
They told me I am forbidden from entering the mosque. Although I'm a medical doctor, I'm 68-years-old, and I was born in Jerusalem. I mean, this
is an example 90 percent of Palestinians were prevented from reaching the mosque today, there were hundreds of checkpoints to prevent them.
And more than that, the peaceful worshipers were attacked in a vicious, aggressive and unacceptable way. This is be condemned. And let me tell you,
frankly, the Palestinians are extremely angry when they see this double standard in the international community.
Russia receives more than 6000 punitive acts and sanctions, not a single sanction against Israeli occupation and the system of apartheid.
ANDERSON: Dr. Barghouti this - what we've seen today is the latest and what has been a spate of violence. One commentator, remarking "It is too early
to know what to call this current surge of violence" but if the attacks continue, or the violence continues at this current pace, anxieties will
heighten.
This to a certain extent written through the prism of Tel Aviv or the Israelis he was referring in this article to a third intifada or especially
the possibility of such. What are your thoughts at this point?
DR. BARGHOUTI: Well, as a medical doctor, let me tell you, I would be making a big mistake to the patient if I consumed myself only with the
symptoms. Violence is the symptom, and most of the violence is coming from the side of the Israeli occupier.
But the root cause is the Israeli military occupation, which has become the longest occupation in modern history. More than 74 years as Palestinians
are deprived from their freedom, they were forced to leave their homes thousands, hundreds of thousands of them.
Now we are living under military occupation since 54 years, and now this occupation has transformed into the worst system of apartheid, according to
Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, even Israeli human rights organization - says that.
So the reason is apartheid. The cause is occupation, there can be peace, there can be security for everybody if Israel ends occupation and ends
apartheid, and it is time for the whole world and especially the United States to start to see that.
ANDERSON: Dr. Barghouti if we see no change how concerned is you that this will escalate?
DR. BARGHOUTI: It will escalate, for sure it will escalate. It could escalate at any moment. I mean, touching this most sensitive nerve of
attacking peaceful worshipers in the Aqsa Mosque, one of the holiest sites for Muslims all over the world during Ramadan, which is the holiest month
for all Muslims.
This kind of attack this kind of provocation is an invitation to escalation. Of course, it's an invitation to trouble. And that's why the
only explanation I have is that this extreme right wing government in Israel is trying to satisfy the most extreme elements in Israel, the
Israeli illegal settlers who are illegal according to international law.
As if they are in a competition that can eat the Palestinians war, who can injure the Palestinians more who can kill the Palestinians?
ANDERSON: Well, from the Israeli perspective, of course, they will say that this - there are heightened tensions. The army is on heightened alert
because of this spate of killings, what they refer to as terror attacks. What chance anytime soon that there is de-escalation? Just explain to our
viewers what needs to happen in order that there is de-escalation from the point that we are at now?
[11:25:00]
DR. BARGHOUTI: --Israel. We had those no agreement that vanished it the Israeli side. Now they're putting the Palestinian authority in a corner,
they're not even ready to talk to them politically. The only way we can change the situation is to exercise pressure on Israel.
Of course, the Palestinian population is going to resist and it is determined to achieve its goals of achieving freedom, because all we want
is to be equal to everybody else in this world. To be free from occupation and free from the system of apartheid--
ANDERSON: --people have been let down by their politicians, haven't they? Let's be quite frank.
DR. BARGHOUTI: Absolutely. I agree with you. And I agree with you because Oslo Agreement was a first agreement, it was a false agreement, because it
was not fair to the Palestinian people. And that's why we are demanding democratic elections. And that's why I always say the only piece that can
last is between democracies, when the aspirations of the Palestinian people will be respected, and not agreements that will be imposed on politicians
who cannot defend their people.
That is the situation today, but the world community has a responsibility here. If the world community cares about international law and Ukrainian,
and if the world community cares about war crimes, and cares about not allowing occupation, then why don't they interfere here and pressure the
powerful side, which is the Israeli government and the Israeli army and the Israeli establishment?
That is the trick. And that is the test to the world community and to international law, in my opinion.
ANDERSON: Dr. Barghouti, it's good to have you with us. The view from the ground at present around the compound is that things are quiet. Let's hope
that continues. Your analysis and perspective though is extremely important. We're glad that you are safe thank you.
Well, CNN has reached out to the Israeli side and invited officials from the foreign ministry and the prime minister's office to join us on this
program. We haven't received a response yet, from the Prime Minister's Office, we leave that invitation on the table for both.
Just ahead, CNN on the frontlines of the war in Eastern Ukraine where it's agony for trapped civilians with the rescuers trying to get them out. Their
stories are up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANDERSON: We all realize we will not be forgiven that declaration coming from the Ukrainian Armed Forces after the pride of Russia's fleet went down
in the Black Sea.
[11:30:00]
ANDERSON: Ukraine says it sank the Moskva warship with a missile.
Moscow says that is not the case. But U.S. and Western defense officials, while not sure what happened does seem to favor the Ukrainian account.
Well, on the ground the man leading the war crimes investigation into Ukraine is looking for accountability, especially after seeing Bucha and
Borodianka, mass graves were discovered there earlier this month after Russian forces withdrew. Here's what International Criminal Court
prosecutor Karim Khan told CNN.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARIM KHAN, PROSECUTOR, INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT: Nobody is above the law, nobody's beneath it, but whether you're a private or a captain or a
colonel or a general or a civilian superior. The basic principles apply to you.
Nobody gets a jet out a free car, nobody gets a free pass. Every individual must act with responsibility in the contract and there is personal
accountability. It's not a defense, Nuremberg established it. Superior order is not a defense.
It's not enough to attack a civilian object and attack women and children for example, to say I was told to do so. This is an opportunity and a
responsibility to mobilize the law and send it into battle. Not on behalf of Ukraine or against Russia nor on behalf of Russia against Ukraine, but
on behalf of humanity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: That's Karim Khan there. Only the dead aren't afraid. That is what one Ukrainian has been telling CNN's Clarissa ward. Clarissa went to
the frontlines of the war in eastern Ukraine. She sent us this report. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLARRISA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): The town of Avdiivka is no stranger to war. For eight years this has been the front
line of Ukraine's battle with Russian backed separatists. People here are used to shelling they have never experienced anything like this. A missile
can be heard overhead as an emotional man approaches us. He smashed the old part of town he says; as we talk the artillery intensifies.
WARD (on camera): I told him it's better to go home now because there's a lot of shelling and he said there's more shelling where he lives.
WARD (voice over): As Russia prepares a major offensive in the east; frontline towns like Avdiivka are getting pummeled.
WARD (on camera): So you can hear constant bombardment. This is the bomb shelter down here but you can see this building has already been hit.
WARD (voice over): More than 40 people are now living in what used to be a clothing store - and her two sons had been here for three weeks. She wants
to leave but says her boys are too scared to go outside.
We're afraid to stay and afraid to go she tells us, but its fate. Whether you run or don't run. On an apartment block, an icon of the Virgin Mary has
been painted, a plea for protection. But there is no respite in the bombardment.
WARD (on camera): If we look over here, you can see the remnants of some fresh strikes.
WARD (voice over): 37 year old government worker --looks at what remains of his family home. He takes us inside to see the full scale of the
destruction.
WARD (on camera): It's completely destroyed. Just need to.
WARD (voice over): Mercifully, no one was at home at the time of the strike.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was photo albums, my children's photograph.
WARD (voice over): His family has already left, but he says he plans to stay. I'm afraid like anybody else. Only the dead aren't afraid he tells
us, but a lot of people are still here in Avdiivka living in bomb shelters and we need to support them.
Authorities say roughly 2000 people remain in this town. There is no water no heat electricity is spotty. The local school has become a hub to gather
aid and distributed to the community.
[11:35:00]
WARD (voice over): Volunteer - spends his days visiting the elderly and disabled. Today he is checking in on 86 year old Lydia, petrified and
alone, he has yet to find an organization willing to come and evacuate her.
When there's no electricity, and it's so dark and there's shelling she says you can't imagine how scary it is. She tells us she recites prayers to get
through the night. I never imagined that my end would be like this, she says.
You can't even die here because there's no one to provide a burial ceremony. For Igor, it is agony not to be able to do more. I promise, -
says, I will help you to be evacuated.
As we leave, Lydia is reluctant to say goodbye. That is terrifying to live through this time to do it alone is torture. It's so nice to see real
people she says probably it's going to get worse, a prediction all but certain to come true as a second Russian offensive draws near.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: Well, since the war in Ukraine began the resilience and resistance from everyday civilians, citizens and Ukrainian forces against
Russia's aggression have been a common thread. Haven't they?
One of their strength to hold off some of Russia's offensives have been praised. My next guest told the European Parliament it's not enough.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OKSANA ZABUZHKO, UKRAINIAN NOVELIST: We are strong and grateful for your support and your admiration. The problem is Putin's bumps will not be
stopped by the strength of our spirit. Every coffee break, you are taken during your discussions about how to interfere without provoking Putin to
go further costs someone's life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Ukrainian Novelist Oksana Zabuzhko joins us now from Warsaw, Poland via Skype. It is great to have you on, thank you so much for making
the time. That was a powerful speech made a month ago, Oksana on reflection when you hear that back, would you 50 days into this war have added
anything?
Not said anything that you said that they what are your thoughts? Where are you at this point?
ZABUZHKO: Goodness, thank you very much. Thank you very much for having me. And thanks for your support for my country. And I would say that, not that
much has changed in the world since that speech that I made in the European Parliament on the Eighth of March.
So I don't see the reason to change except for to change the volume and to scream louder and louder. We need weapon. We need weapon to protect our
skies. We need weapons to protect our lives now after Bucha after these horrible acts of genocide that the whole world finally saw with your own
eyes.
It's more than clear that yet now in this war, we are the Jews for this new Hitler. We Ukrainians are Putin's juice, he wants to destroy us. So we do
need weapon. We do need assistance.
We do need the awareness of the whole world that used to repeat every year in May, commemorating the World War Two never again, never again, never
again. It turned out to be not true. It is here, it is back. It is here.
ANDERSON: And Oksana, yes. I mean, and the world is I think let's be quite clear, very, very aware of what is going on. The president has spoken to
lawmakers in so many countries. You yourself have spoken in front of the parliament. And at that during that speech you said it is not enough to
just applaud the spirit of the Ukrainian people.
[11:40:00]
ANDERSON: And you are as the president is appealing for more weapons, which are, by the way, coming your way. I'm really interested to hear from you
about this Ukrainian spirit, though.
There will be so many people watching the show around the world who are mystified as to how Ukrainians carry on through this, 50 days in. Can you
just describe what that Ukrainian spirit is, at this point?
ZABUZHKO: Well, you know I've been trying to do this for my whole literary career; I've, already done a lot of books on the subject. And for this
whole period, I've been kind of overwhelmed with the feeling that I am breeding against the wall.
No matter how many Maidans and Orange Revolution back in 2004, or the euro Maidan in 2013, 2014, when exactly the Russian war against Ukraine started,
it did not start on February 2004--.
It started eight years ago, and we've been having eight years to strengthen our spirit against the invader coming to destroy us. The thing is the
problem is that Ukraine has been until recently until this horrible 80 days perceived by the West as the backyard of Russia.
And this is true Becky. And this is I mean, this is definitely the case. So it is time now a little bit to change your optics to get more to get more
knowledge of the Ukrainian history of the very complex, modern period of relations look 300 years of relations between Russia and Ukraine.
ANDERSON: Oksana--
ZABUZHKO: Yes.
ANDERSON: Yes, sorry. And I think people know more about the history of Ukraine now, thankfully, than they perhaps did before this war began. But
you are right to point out that so much more can be understood. Your writing is fantastic.
I know you are you were in Poland, to launch your new book.
And I appeal to viewers around the world to read some of your writing. It is amazing. Thank you for the time being for joining us. And let's speak
again soon. We're taking a short break back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:45:00]
ANDERSON: So far more than 4.7 million people have left Ukraine since the fighting started and more than 7 million are internally displaced. Some of
those fleeing Ukraine have traveled north to Estonia. Scott McLean has this report about how that Baltic state is taking care of Ukrainians in need.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): Passengers on board the Isabel are usually shuttling between Latvia and Sweden. But for at least
the next few months, Isabel will be docked in Tallinn, Estonia and be home to some 1300 Ukrainian refugees.
Almost all of them are women and children. There are kids in every corner of the ship using the ballroom for a soccer match, learning to ride a bike
or learning remotely. Ship's dining room now serves three meals a day, the duty free shop has turned into a storage room and everywhere you look
people are trying to adjust to their new surroundings.
MCLEAN (on camera): Most of the people on board this ship have come here from hotels in the city of course for the government that was getting
pretty expensive, so they move them on board this ship where there's plenty of common areas but the rooms are tiny.
This is one of the bigger ones meant for a family of three, there's barely enough room for a mattress. Of course, this is better than the floor of a
gymnasium and a lot better than a basement in Ukraine.
MCLEAN (voice over): --just about anything was better than living through war in Kyiv with her two young children. This is the second time she's been
forced from her home. In 2014, she fled Donetsk, while pregnant with her daughter now seven.
This time her husband was forced to stay behind. I don't know what will happen or when I will see my husband she says, the first time we fled he
was with us the whole time. Now we've already been separated for one month.
How do we feel in this situation, it's hard? I want to go home. Online classes for - Lena Brezhnev's son were cut short because air raid sirens in
their small town in central Ukraine forced his teacher to shelter underground.
Those same sirens once terrified both of them. The more the sirens came, the more my son started to panic and worry, she says really affected his
mental health to the point he became physically ill.
I was also worrying a lot, so we decided to leave. Her older son 18 years old had to stay behind. All told Estonia has now taken in more than 30,000
Ukrainians. The Minister responsible for refugees as Estonians knows what it's like to be forced from home and what it's like to have an unfriendly
neighbor.
SIGNE RIISALO, ESTONIAN MINISTER OF SOCIAL PROTECTION: Estonia is absolutely terrified by Russia throughout our history.
MCLEAN (on camera): Are there limits to this country's generosity.
RIISALO: There can't be limit. You can see what happens in Ukraine. We do not have only the war. This is crime scene really, there can't be limit.
MCLEAN (voice over): Many Ukrainians though have reached there's overwhelmed by war and exhausted by the uncertainty. Their nightmare cannot
end soon enough Scott McLean, CNN, Tallinn, Estonia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANDERSON: And we continue our coverage of the war in Ukraine. Up next though Pakistan has a new prime minister, but he carries with him a lot of
old baggage. I'll take a closer look up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:50:00]
ANDERSON: Before I let you go this evening, I want to take a step back now and reflect on a crucial event that stirred political upheaval this week, a
story that may have fallen through the cracks amid Russia's brutal invasion of Ukraine, but a very important one nonetheless.
This week, Pakistan's Prime Minister Imran Khan was ousted in a no confidence vote over allegations of economic mismanagement, putting an end
to his tumultuous term in office. But the man replacing it Shehbaz Sharif is no stranger to political drama either.
In fact, this whole episode represents another chapter in the history of dysfunctional politics in Pakistan. Let's take a closer look. It is often
said if you want to break into Pakistani politics, you need to have one of two things, a family with a long history in politics, or enjoy close ties
with the all-powerful military or better still both.
But keeping those voices on your side isn't always that easy. It's no wonder then that no Pakistani Prime Minister has ever completed a full term
in office. Take the Sharif's for example.
A vastly influential and wealthy family that has been embedded in the country's political fabric for decades, Shehbaz Sharif is the new Interim
Prime Minister despite facing unresolved corruption charges.
His older brother Nawaz held the top job three times and like every other Pakistani premier before him and after him. His terms were cut short and
overshadowed by scandal.
Well in 2014, cricketer turned politician Imran Khan led thousands of protesters to Islamabad against now as Sharif's rule, shutting down the
Capitol during what was a sit in that lasted months.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IMRAN KHAN, FORMER PAKISTANI PRIME MINISTER: They didn't get justice to the courts to the parliament. Eventually they had to come to the streets and
actually get rid of them. And this is exactly the same case with them unless we come out in the streets, - will be winning elections, because he
buys everyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Well, it became known as the Azadi March or freedom movement and eventually helped propel Khan to the premiership along with what is widely
believed to be the support of the military establishment.
Well, now, Khan is out of power, in large part thanks to campaigns led by the Sharif's and with the alleged support of Pakistan's military, who
withdrew its support for Khan in recent months. But the Sharif's aren't the only leading Pakistani family that loves relishing in the political
limelight.
If the name Bhutto rings a bell, well, it should. In the 1970s after a bloody civil war that led to the partition of Pakistan and created what is
now Bangladesh. Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto emerged as a charismatic leader who rallied the masses with a socialist manifesto that soon earned the ire of
the military.
And after almost four years in office, he was seized in a military coup, and later executed by top general who himself had hand- picked. And of
course, the Bucha family affair didn't end there. Benazir Bhutto, the daughter of Zulfiqar Bhutto became Pakistan's Prime Minister in 1988 taking
over as the head of the PPP, Pakistan People's Party.
She led her country for two short terms, both ending over allegations of corruption and misconduct that she staunchly denied. So it shouldn't come
as a surprise that her son would follow in her footsteps.
Benazir Bhutto Zardari took over as head of the second largest political party in Pakistan and is the son of not one but two former Pakistani
leaders. His father, of course is Asif Ali Zardari.
He endorsed Shehbaz Sharif's appointment as Prime Minister and has been rumored to be a contender for the country's next Foreign Minister. In an
interview I did with him recently, he couldn't confirm those reports. But got me thinking, if they were true how much longer could Pakistan's game of
dynasty politics continue.
[11:55:00]
ANDERSON: Or how much more political upheaval should Pakistanis be willing to take before they say enough is enough, while Bilawal did concur that
dynasty politics exist in Pakistan, here is what else he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILAWAL BHUTTO ZARDARI, CHAIRMAN, PAKISTAN PEOPLES PARTY: Criticize nepotism and dynastic politics as much as you want. But whoever the people
of Pakistan decide, that is what at the end of the day should matter. As far as myself is concerned, my grandfather was, was hanged by a military
dictator.
My mother was assassinated by a terrorist and a dictator is --. And I was forced into Pakistani politics at a young age. I didn't choose this life,
it chose me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: Pakistani - people will decide soon enough through elections who they want leading their country. And if it is Shehbaz Sharif, he has a long
and arduous road ahead. He'll be inheriting an alien economy with inflation in the double digits, making it extremely difficult for average Pakistanis
to make ends meet.
And while many may be looking at his ascension as the start of a new page, as still dynasty sign with close ties to the military sounds a lot like
Pakistan's political past, haunting its present. And maybe just maybe that realization will make people say enough.
As one analyst put it, corruption allegations against Sharif will persist and it is inevitable that regular Pakistanis will tire of the prime
minister's office being treated as a family heirloom between brothers. I am Becky Anderson. Thank you, and good night.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
