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Trump in Contempt for Violating Gag Order; Trump Hush Money Trial Resumes, Banker Returns to Stand; Colleges Struggle to Contain Widening Demonstrations; Columbia University Protesters Breach Academic Building; Officers Use Force, Arresting Dozens of Protesters at UT Austin; Demonstrations Draw Comparisons to 1980s Anti-Apartheid Movement. Aired 10- 11a ET
Aired April 30, 2024 - 10:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN HOST (voice-over): Welcome back. You're watching breaking news coverage here on CNN. Donald Trump back in court for a New
York hush money case. And now fined over gag order violations. I'm Becky Anderson in Abu Dhabi. We will have all the other international headlines
that we are following later this hour.
First, let me get you straight to my colleague, Erica Hill, who is outside that New York court.
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR AND U.S. CORRESPONDENT: Thank you.
Court's been in session for about a half an hour and it's been pretty eventful already on this Tuesday, as we kick off the third week here in
Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial.
Just before testimony resumed this morning, the judge ruled that Donald Trump had in fact violated the gag order. The judge placed here and fined
him $1,000 each for nine violations and also warned the former president he could face jail time if it happens. Again.
All of this happening, that order being released as the banker who assisted Donald Trump's former fixer, Michael Cohen, is back on the stand for day
two of his testimony.
Gary Farro helped Michael Cohen to arrange that $130,000 payment to adult film star Stormy Daniels, which was used to allegedly cover up that alleged
affair with Donald Trump ahead. Of course, of the 2016 election and that is what plays into these 34 felony counts of falsifying business records.
Donald Trump has pleaded not guilty to all those charges. Brynn Gingras joins me now.
So if we start with -- the judge made his ruling and then went about the day. And then it dropped and we're all here frantically trying to read
through it for some of the details. The headlines are those violations but also that warning.
BRYNN GINGRAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I feel like the judge came in and I have good news and bad news, because he first said that he actually can
attend his son Barron's graduation, right?
(CROSSTALK)
GINGRAS: So we're trying to figure out when it will actually be, that day. Actually this trial is going faster than they anticipated. But then yes,
boom, there goes the contempt of court here that he ordered down, handed to the paperwork to the lawyers and essentially said that he had violated.
And his defense attorneys didn't give reason to -- against it, those nine violations. So hell be fined $9,000 by handing down that more strict
warning of listen, stop violating this. This is, of course, as we have another gag order hearing on Thursday for four more alleged violations.
But yes. The one that the judge said that he didn't violate, that had to do, if we looked back to his Truth Social posts, it had to do with the one
where he essentially called Stormy Daniels and Michael Cohen sleazebags.
So the judge essentially saying I gave him pause to not say he violated that because he was actually responding to some of the tweets that Michael
Cohen and his attorney at the time, Michael Avenatti, had put out.
So it's interesting to see how if that will affect how the defense is going to argue moving ahead to Thursday, these other four alleged violations.
HILL: It is because this has been one of his -- one of his complaints, one of his arguments being Donald Trump, that, well, part of this is he should
be allowed to respond, right?
It's not that he can't respond. But it is that he can't specifically -- the gag order itself says you cannot attack witnesses in this case, Stormy
Daniels and Michael Cohen. You can't attack the jury and you can't go after prosecutors or the staff here in the courts.
GINGRAS: Right and so in his argument is, I have to be able to say something. Right?
I have a First Amendment right. So the -- his attorney, which we have, "The New York Times" reporting today, saying that he's not really happy with
Todd Blanche. He's the one that argued the gag order last time. So we'll see if he is even more annoyed with Todd Blanche after this and going in
into Thursday's hearing.
But it does look like that he sort of won on that argument for that one alleged violation. So we'll see. We'll see how the judge thinks about this.
And if there's a different strategy with going forward with the defense team. It's a pretty eventful day in court.
Especially also, we should mention Eric Trump is there. This is the first time that we're seeing a family member of the Trumps come into court,
sitting just a row behind the former president at the defense table.
HILL: Which is really important. The first couple of weeks some discussion about how we didn't see any Trump family members here. So Eric Trump there
in court today, as you point out just prior to these violations being announced.
The judge said, yes, you're good to attend your son's high school graduation, which was one of the first questions I believe on day one, once
things got underway. So on the stand right now, to bring us up to speed, is Gary Farro. So he was his bank manager at the time, who helped Michael
Cohen open an account.
GINGRAS: Right.
HILL: So that he could pay Stormy Daniels.
[10:05:03]
We're learning that money, as quickly as the account was established, that money went out almost just as quickly.
GINGRAS: Yes. He said that actually Michael Cohen transferred that money three minutes before the deadline. And this is consistent with what we've
been hearing about the urgency that Michael Cohen had to get this reimbursement in place.
So it really sets the scene for jurors about maybe the mindset of Michael Cohen at the time, trying to figure out exactly how he was going to
reimburse Stormy Daniels for this hush money.
Now we have been talking about this, I know you have, that this is the paper trail part of the case. It's a little bit more dense for jurors. But
there are 34 counts of falsifying business records. So there needs to be a paper trail.
And the hope here for prosecutors using Gary Farro, using even David Pecker at one point but using some of these lesser name -- I hate to say it like
that -- people as witnesses is really to set him up for the big blockbuster.
Michael Cohen testimony, the Stormy Daniels testimony. So jurors can actually say, oh, yes, I did hear that already. This is consistent because
we know Michael Cohen, especially is a problematic witness for especially the prosecution.
HILL: Yes. And (INAUDIBLE) yes.
GINGRAS: Well, yes.
HILL: That's for sure. We'll have a lot to discuss on that. Brynn, thank you as always.
Also here to discuss, Jeff Swartz is a former Miami-Dade County court judge, currently a professor at Western Michigan University's Cooley Law
School.
It's great to have you with us. I actually just want to pick up -- we're going to get to those violations in a bit. But I want to pick up where
Brynn just left off, what we're talking about, this paper trail, right?
That the prosecution is now trying to establish. What's important to note is the reason that they need to really put in place why business records,
the prosecution alleged were falsified and how is because for this to be a felony -- and these are felony charges in the state of New York as opposed
to a misdemeanor.
There has to be this coverup essentially of another crime to turn it into it felony. Give us a sense of how that's going with this particular
testimony about the establishment of this bank account and the quick payments.
JEFF SWARTZ, FORMER MIAMI-DADE COUNTY COURT JUDGE: Well, this basically establishes that the payment was made. That's the important part, because
it's the reimbursement to Michael Cohen that actually is the coverup.
And that's where the records are actually falsified and created by way of invoices and other reasons for giving Michael money out of the Trump
Organization. So first they have to show that Michael made the payments and who they actually went to and what the purpose was.
Then they'll bring in Michael to further testify to the documents that he created in order to get the falsified payments made to him to cover up the
actual reason for the payments being made in the first place.
HILL: And Brynn was talking about how quickly this happened. We're learning in the testimony, too, the records show there's an internal email
that shows an important employee -- pardon me -- wrote, "please expedite pending wire," that there was this real sense of urgency that it had to
happen now because there was a clock ticking.
SWARTZ: There was a clock ticking and a lot of it had to do with the fact that Mr. Avenatti was threatening to go public with it at a time when we
were in the campaign that probably would have been very damaging to Mr. Trump.
And he was very concerned about that. He wanted this matter disposed of quickly, so that Avenatti was satisfied and Mr. Avenatti was very verbal to
them about the threats that he was pointed -- on the threats that he was making to take Stormy Daniels public.
So that's really why it had to get done and it had to get done now. And they couldn't have the money coming out of the Trump Organization at that
point. It had to have another source since they had lost the "National Enquirer" as their bagman (ph).
HILL: Looking at some of the other developments we've had just in the last 30 to 40 minutes this morning at the trial, as Brynn pointed out, this is
the first day that we've seen a family member of Donald Trump's in court. His son, Eric, is there, seated in the row just behind him inside the
courtroom.
How important or not is it for a defendant to have that support there?
What is the message that that shows to the jury?
SWARTZ: Well, first of all, if your family isn't there supporting you, people start to wonder why they're not seeing your family and basically
everybody in New York knows who the Trumps are and know that nobody else was showing up.
Eric being there means something but I don't think it means as much as possibly Melania being there would be. And the fact that she's not there
supporting her man is a problem for Mr. Trump. He got Eric there but he hasn't got Don Jr. there and he hasn't got his daughter-in-law there and he
hasn't got Tiffany there.
There isn't this big gaggle of Trumps sitting behind him, going, yay, Daddy, go on. That just isn't happening right now.
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And the jury does see that. They really do.
HILL: Be interesting to see if that changes in the coming days and the weeks of this trial.
Also want to ask you about some reporting from "The New York Times" today, that Donald Trump has been complaining more about his lead attorney here,
Todd Blanche, complaining privately on the phone.
He wants him to be more aggressive, saying he, quote, "wants," Mr. Trump, "to attack witnesses," attack what the former president sees as a hostile
jury pool and attack the judge, not something I'm sure that would be advised, attacking the judge.
Does it surprise you at all that we're starting to hear there may be some cracks in this relationship?
SWARTZ: No, I'm not really surprised. That's Mr. Trump's way -- and he has, up until now, had difficulties with all of his attorneys who want to
try the case the way it should be tried; attacking the law, just finding little holes to poke.
Don't go after people; you can't go after their character; you can't attack them the way Mr. Trump likes to attack people. And I'm not surprised that
he is having difficulties. The attorney that he has right now is -- the lead attorney is a former U.S. attorney. He knows how to try cases. He
knows what he has to do.
But it's not the way Mr. Trump does things and that's why, very honestly, the A list lawyers that he had tried to enlist to work for him have all
said no or walked away. And he's now working very honestly, as much as Mr. Blanche is a very good lawyer, he's not an A team lawyer. He's a B team
lawyer. And that's what he's stuck with right now.
And that's not going to satisfy Donald Trump.
HILL: It is interesting; former colleagues of his and attorneys in New York who also know him, who I've spoken with, did express some surprise
when he took on this role. Before I let you go, I just want to get your take on the gag order.
The judge ruling this morning, nine of those 10 alleged violations were in fact violating that gag order -- $1,000 fine per violation -- so $9,000.
And then also that warning: basically pull it together, follow the instructions or you could end up in jail.
What do you make of that ruling?
SWARTZ: Well, there's two things. Number one, $9,000 doesn't mean anything to Donald Trump, it's finding that he has violated at this point that is
more important.
I anticipate there're going to be more violations on Thursday with the additional complaints that were filed by the state. However, I don't think
that's the stage at which he would be incarcerated.
The problem with the order is that the judge has threatened him with jail if he continues to violate. Mr. Trump pushes the edge of the envelope
because he wants to prove that he's in charge and the judge can't beat up on him and the judge really is a paper tiger.
Somewhere down the line, having been a judge, I will tell you that you cannot take open defiance in court without serious consequences (ph).
And Judge Merchan has put himself in a position where, if this continues, he may not have a choice but to do some form of incarceration on Mr. Trump,
to send a message, you pushed me as far as you can go. Now I'm going to do what I need to do.
And that's -- that's the problem with the order.
HILL: We'll be watching. Jeff, great to have you back with us today. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Our coverage will continue here throughout the hour but I want to head back to Becky Anderson now, who's following a number of the day's other big
stories, including one just a few miles Uptown from me here in New York.
And that, of course, Becky, is the standoff at Columbia University.
ANDERSON: That's right, Erica, thank you.
Right now, dozens of student protesters holed up inside a building at Columbia after breaking windows and storming inside. Even more students are
outside Hamilton Hall, blocking the doors and chanting, "Free Palestine."
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ANDERSON (voice-over): A source tells CNN, the New York Police Department does not have plans to go into Columbia right now, at least. We've also
learned that students, faculty and staff at Columbia have been directed to immediately vacate Pulitzer Hall, citing safety concern.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON: That building houses the university's journalism school. While demonstrations continued at Columbia, protesters in Texas clashed with
police on Monday, resulting in dozens of arrests on the UT Austin campus. Have a look at this.
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ANDERSON (voice-over): Well, organizers of that protest say officers used excessive force as well as Mace and flash bangs.
Texas police say the majority of the protesters who have been arrested are not actually affiliated with the university.
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ANDERSON: CNN's Julia Vargas joins us now from Columbia University.
[10:15:03]
Polo Sandoval is with a group of students just outside Columbia. And Ed Lavandera is standing by at the University of Texas in Austin.
Julia, let me start with you. You're actually on campus near that building that was taken over. Just describe the scene and the atmosphere, if you
will.
JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN PRODUCER: Yes. that's right. I'm right outside Hamilton Hall.
This is the building that you showed in that video, that students stormed last night. They've hung flags, Palestinian flags. There's banners -- I'll
give you a sense of what it's like here. It's very calm, it's very quiet.
The atmosphere is mostly of a question, what will happen next and what kind of disciplinary action will Columbia take?
Will they arrive -- we'll see if New York Police Department come into campus, like they were allowed about 14 days ago. And they came in and
arrested over 100 students that were camped out in the encampment.
So this is a barricade that students and protesters have put together. They have pushed patio furniture, heavy furniture, to block. You can see the
chairs inside, zipties, ropes, all of this to keep the few dozen students that are inside to protect them.
We just saw up from that balcony up there, just saw some people come out and thank the supporters who are out here, saying, I love you. This is, I
think, the crux of all of this, those videos, the violence, I guess that you saw. This is it.
This is where people broke some windows. There's obviously some property damage here. Becky, this is private property, so Columbia has the right to
kick people out. They can call in the NYPD to help them get students out of here.
But that's the question, right?
How will they react?
That didn't go too well. It escalated the tension on campus when all those people were arrested a couple of weeks ago. But some students are not
feeling safe on campus. And there is an added tension here that, as of 2:00 pm last night, yesterday, they were told to vacate this encampment outside
(INAUDIBLE).
A lot of people who did not heed that warning that they were given the opportunity (INAUDIBLE) kind of immunity (INAUDIBLE) that nothing would
happen to them if they left and agreed to not break the university's rules until June 2025.
There were protests that erupted after that and in the evening movement started again, I think there's some people out there again.
But the main question here is, will NYPD, that's just outside the gates, be allowed in to help get these students out like they were a couple weeks
ago, Becky?
ANDERSON: We have also learned that students, faculty and staff at Columbia have been directed to immediately Pulitzer Hall. Authorities are
citing safety concerns. That's a building that includes the university -- the university's journalism school.
Do we know anymore about that?
JONES: Yes. So I am a Columbia student. I go to the journalism school. I'm a graduate student here. We have been allowed back into parts of the
building to work, to charge our phones, to be able to come live and talk to you.
But a lot of other buildings are shut because there's active (ph) to the Butler Library. There's some food on campus, some options that are open.
But it's very, very quiet. All classes were canceled or moved to online.
It's finals week also for a lot of people, a lot of students. So a lot of this is also going to be affecting people's schedules leading up to
graduation, which is in just a couple of weeks, Becky.
ANDERSON: Before I let you go, there's something like 36,000 students at Columbia.
Have you got a sense of how many of those students are actually involved in these protests?
GINGRAS: It's obviously a small fraction, right. The vast majority of students is going about their lives. But there is a few hundreds that have
been very active on campus. And you've seen the videos, the aerial. There's a lot of people that have set up tents.
And then, even just to show support. But that's a small fraction of the campus. And this is only one campus. This is only site campus (ph) that's
where all those images have been coming from, Becky.
ANDERSON: Yes, fascinating. I'm going let you go. Stand by.
Polo, you've been speaking with students outside.
What are they telling you?
POLO SANDOVAL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Just off from that point that we just heard from Julia.
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About those students who are not actively involved, trying to go about their day-to-day lives, we learned at, spending some time with some
students outside of the campus, that that is getting harder and harder.
Especially given the extraordinary images that we saw last night of these students -- forgive me -- of these individuals occupying the building you
see behind me.
The reason why I think that's an important distinction is because that is, at this moment, we still do not have any confirmation as to who was
actively involved in that overnight occupation of the Hamilton building.
You saw our colleague, Julia, showing you the other side. This is the public facing side where that banner is still hung from one of the windows.
And if you look just below, you will begin to see a line of individuals who are trying to gain access onto the campus. This is the only access point as
of as of this moment.
However, now with these new restrictions, you have to either be recognized in the system as somebody essential to campus operations or a student who
resides on campus.
And I've seen all morning people walk up with their Columbia IDs, Becky. They swipe it in the card reader and the vast majority of them are getting
that red indicator and security, who's manning the gate, say simply the campus is closed. You cannot go on campus.
And that is certainly fueling some frustrations. I've spoken to some students who left their belongings on campus and they simply want to go on
there and retrieve those. It is not as simple.
And so I think at this point, it now becomes a question of whether or not this may be too little, too late now, with the Columbia University really
deploying these kinds of measures to try to contain the situation and to not allow access onto campus to anybody who is not a student.
But the question -- and really Julia just hit on it -- will they turn to the NYPD in terms of potentially clear out the encampment?
And finally, I should mention that my colleague, Jeff Winter (ph), did reach out to one of the organizations that is really the core of the
encampment occupation that we've seen for nearly two weeks.
Still waiting to hear back from them because that is also going to be an important factor, is exactly whether or not this was sanctioned by the
young men and women who have been on that at lawn for nearly two weeks now.
ANDERSON: And just remind us, when you speak about the core encampment, what are their demands?
SANDOVAL: There is one that is in all caps, in bold letterface, which is divestment. We have followed the negotiations that were ongoing up until
they basically came apart yesterday.
And they said -- we heard time and time again from the two negotiators who were at the table with university officials saying, if it's not divestment,
that encampment is not is going to go anywhere.
And when you -- basically they are looking for economic ties, between the university and weapons or tech companies with Israeli ties, to be
completely severed.
The university drew that red line in the sand, saying that is not going to happen. And that's what led us to the 2 o'clock deadline yesterday. That
came and went.
But when you hear from the people who have occupied that encampment, they say that what drives them, Becky, is the fact that previous divestment
calls have actually worked to a certain extent.
Including in the '60s during the Vietnam War, in the '80s as well, when they were able to make sure that Columbia became the first U.S. Ivy League
university to sever ties with South America -- South African companies during the apartheid.
They want a repeat of that. They feel that history is on their side. And that's why they said they're not going anywhere unless they're forced off
the campus.
ANDERSON: Yes, I'm going to do more on that later this hour. Good to have you.
Ed. Let me bring you in. They called in police where you are yesterday, as well as last week. And we've seen some pretty extreme scenes. So just walk
us through what's been going on, the atmosphere, if you will, now on campus.
ED LAVANDERA, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, right now, it's very calm. There's no protesters here. However, there is a group that is
saying that they will return back to the campus later this afternoon. So we'll see how that materializes.
But the fact is that many of the people who were taken into custody yesterday remain in the jail here in Austin. And we just heard from jail
officials a short while ago with the official number, 79 people arrested in the protests here at the University of Texas yesterday.
So much higher than it was last week, when nearly 60 people were arrested. All of those criminal charges were dropped last week. Now, however, the way
the prosecuting attorney that handles these cases here in Austin is talking now, it appears that there could be a different approach this time around.
The county attorney saying that she is concerned about the escalation of the protests here at the university. And that she is discussing with
university officials on how to best handle this current wave of arrests that happened here on the campus yesterday. So we'll have to see here
throughout the day today how that plays out.
[10:25:00]
But those criminal charges that these 79 people are facing involve disorderly -- or trespassing here on the campus. So a significant change
from what we saw last week. Whether or not those charges remain, we will have to continue monitoring that.
But here on this campus, the university officials say they've been clear, that any -- they welcome the idea of free speech. But any idea that you're
going to set up a tent campsite, some sort of occupation on any part of this campus, that is the line in the sand that university officials have
been drawing.
And that's why state troopers, as well as Austin police and as well as university police were called in yesterday. Now there has been a great deal
of criticism as to how those officers have handled this situation, saying that heavy handed and that these were peaceful protests and should not have
required officers here in riot gear.
But that is the situation that has unfolded now twice on this campus, Becky.
ANDERSON: Yes, we're looking at images as you describe what's been going on, we are looking at images of authorities there, both state police and
indeed the local police. Thank you.
Thank you all for joining us.
We'll take a closer look at these demonstrations later in the show with one Jewish American student taking part in the protests at Yale, alongside a
professor who took part in the anti-apartheid movement that Polo was referring to, on college campuses back in the 1980s. That should be a good
conversation. Stick around for that.
Right. First though, before we do that, we are keeping a close eye, as you would expect us to, on the testimony that has just resumed in Donald
Trump's hush money trial as the judge finds Trump in contempt for violating a gag order. What he said is coming up next, as we get back to New York for
the very latest.
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HILL: Welcome back.
Testimony underway; it is day nine of Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial.
The third witness in this trial, Gary Farro, a bank manager, is currently being questioned by the defense. So cross-examination now underway. And it
is Donald Trump's lead attorney, Todd Blanche, who is doing that questioning.
And we should also report now that we've just learned that the Texas attorney general, Ken Paxton, is here today at court to support the former
president, as is his son, Eric Trump, who is there in the courtroom sitting behind him.
Among the other order of business today, just as court was kicking off, the judge, noting that he had a ruling in those gag orders, those alleged
violations.
[10:30:00]
The judge finding that Donald Trump violated the gag order nine times with his posts on social media at his campaign website. He was fined a total of
$9,000, $1,000 each. That must be settled by the end of the week. The posts must be taken down by 2:15 today.
And there's, of course, a another gag order later this week on Thursday for four additional alleged violations. The judge also warning in that ruling
that there could be jail time in the future if, Becky, he continues to violate this gag order. Will send it back to you.
ANDERSON: Thank you for that.
In Kenya, the number of people who've died due to severe flooding now stands at 174.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON (voice-over): Dozens were killed near Nairobi when a surge of water burst through a tunnel during a flash flood. More than 70 people are
still missing following that incident. Rescue teams still searching for survivors. Let's get you to CNN's Larry Madowo, who is in one of the
hardest hit areas. He joins me now live.
And just describe what you are seeing and how people are coping.
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Becky, this is one of the places where those displaced from the flash flooding that happened here early Monday
morning are being kept across the nation.
There's 52 different centers like these because heavy rains have hit Kenya since March and in recent weeks, there's been some serious flash flooding.
And so many people have been displaced.
But the worst of the devastation we saw was here in Mai Mahiu, just about an hour northwest of Nairobi, where this tunnel under a railway was
clogged. And the storm water completely blew through that and swept down everything in its path.
Entire homes were wiped flat except the foundation; people, animals, their property, everything they owned, swept in that wave of water. Almost entire
(INAUDIBLE) suffered from this. And they're still counting the dead.
Even today while we were there, they picked up one more body from one heap. You see heaps of roofing materials and furniture and household items just
having swept several hundred meters. Trucks overturned, trees uprooted. It's been an apocalyptic scene.
And many of them are coming here. I've spoken to family members. One woman lost nine family members. I met another couple that lost their 3-year-old
son on his birthday. Kenya's president William Ruto has been here to condole with the families and also ordered the military to help in the
search of those were still missing.
Because there's dozens still unaccounted for, as many as more than 70, who, just from this one incident alone, remain unaccounted for. And the families
of this obviously, fear, it's been almost 40 hours. Their chances of finding them are very limited.
But these -- this situation in Kenya is being felt across the region. In Tanzania, 155 people have also died from heavy rains. Burundi has seen some
flooding as well. And the Kenyan and African leaders say, this is also the (INAUDIBLE) -- he has said -- President Ruto, he's spoken to you about
this.
He says these people are victims of climate change and that is why Africa needs climate action from the rest of the world.
ANDERSON: Yes, absolutely. Larry, good to have you, thank you.
Really traumatizing images there.
Donald Trump's criminal trial has resumed in New York. And the judge finds that Donald Trump violated a gag order. That was just the start of
proceedings today. More on that after this.
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[10:35:00]
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HILL: Welcome back.
I am Erica Hill in Lower Manhattan. We are now in week three of Donald Trump's ecrital (ph) hush money trial. At this hour on the stand is the
third witness here that prosecutors have called. He's currently undergoing cross-examination from defense attorneys.
This is Gary Farro, former bank manager who helped Donald Trump's former fixer, Michael Cohen, open a bank account, open a line of credit, which was
ultimately used allegedly to pay Stormy Daniels.
There have been a lot of developments this morning and just the first hour or so, of court. The judge, after he came in, did announce that he had come
to a ruling in those alleged violations of the gag order the judge had put in place for Donald Trump in this case.
The judge ultimately finding that nine of the 10 alleged violations were in fact violations of that gag order. And he fined the former president $1,000
each. That $9,000 needs to be settled up by the end of the week.
The posts themselves, seven of them on Truth Social, two on his campaign website, need to be removed by 2:15 today. And the judge also warning him
that he could face incarceration if there are further violations of the gag order. CNN Justice correspondent, Jessica Schneider back with us with more
on both the gag order and everything else that has happened in a rather eventful first hour of court this morning.
There is another ruling coming up this week. These are four additional alleged violations. Those are not the ones, of course, the judge ruled on
today, Jess.
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right.
On Thursday, Erica, in the afternoon, presumably after testimony, we will hear arguments over four additional violations that prosecutors say Donald
Trump committed.
They say it happened last week, one of them being an interview with a Philadelphia TV station, where he disparaged Michael Cohen because,
remember this gag order says that Donald Trump can't speak disparagingly, threateningly against any witness, against any court officer, against any
family member of attorneys or the judge.
So it's a fairly broad gag order. And prosecutors have said that Donald Trump repeatedly violated it. What we've seen in court today, not only the
ruling on the gag order, saying that Donald Trump owes $9,000, warning him about any future violations and how it could potentially put him in jail.
But now we're also seeing -- we're going on hour two today of Gary Farro's testimony. And really what prosecutors have hammered in on is the fact that
they put this account together very quickly. They wired the money very quickly. He took out that home equity loan quickly.
He then wired the money to Stormy Daniels' attorney very quickly. Everything was urgent, as Gary Farro said, when it came to Michael Cohen.
So prosecutors really laying out how quickly they acted to get this money to Stormy Daniels.
Of course, this is the money, Erica, that's at the heart of the case and that prosecutors are really going to be zeroed in on, probably for most of
this testimony.
HILL: Absolutely. Jessica. Appreciate it. Thank you.
Also with me this hour, civil rights attorney and legal affairs commentator Areva Martin.
Good to have you here. Picking up where Jessica left off, that's what we we're hearing from the prosecution in terms of their examination, witness
testimony there.
We know the defense, Todd Blanche, Donald Trump's lead attorney, is now questioning Gary Farro. And one of the things that he is asking is whether
he knew if Donald Trump had any accounts at this bank -- none that he knew of.
And also was asked about the account itself and said, if a client told me it was a shell corporation, it would not have been opened; it would give me
pause, very frankly.
What do you see the defense starting to set up here in this cross- examination?
AREVA MARTIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think one of the things we know, Erica, that the defense wants to do is to establish that Donald Trump had no
involvement with regards to any deal to pay Stormy Daniels $130,000. We know the overall defense has been that to the extent any monies were paid
to her.
[10:40:00]
It was as a result of a deal that Michael Cohen may have had with David Pecker but that Donald Trump was not involved.
He's maintained that the money he paid back to Michael Cohen was for legal fees and it wasn't for the repayment of a home equity loan or for the
repayment of any money that was provided to Stormy Daniels.
So consistent with that, every witness that the defense is going to cross- examine is going to be to try to establish that Donald Trump had no involvement, had no knowledge, was not involved in any of the dealings of
transactions involving Michael Cohen as it relates to his payment to Stormy Daniels.
HILL: What else is a couple of other interesting moments that have come up this morning. We, just before we got that ruling on the gag order, the
judge had said Donald Trump had asked initially if he could go to his son's graduation in Florida in May.
We have that date now, the judge I don't see why May 17 would be a problem. So that was sort of a win for Donald Trump this morning. He also has his
son in court, Eric Trump is there behind him.
And the attorney general of the state of Texas, Ken Paxton, our colleagues spotted him in the video next to Eric Trump when they were first coming
into court. He tweeted about being here in New York City to support Donald Trump.
It can help a defendant if their family is there in court.
What do you think it does if you learn that the Texas attorney general is showing up?
MARTIN: Well, not only the Texas attorney general but the Texas attorney general that himself has been embroiled in controversy.
An impeachment hearing was held against him in the Texas state legislature. So this is very controversial and I'd say even troubled attorney general.
I think it sends a message about the political nature of this trial.
We know all along that Donald Trump's strategy has been to say to the jurors that this is a political persecution, that this is a case that was
brought by the White House, by Joe Biden, that it's motivated by politics, motivated by Democrats to keep him out of the White House.
So by having a Republican attorney general there, I think it's Donald Trump's way of saying, look, we're not going to take this laying down.
We're going to fight back. And the Republican Party is in solidarity with him.
HILL: Areva, always good to have you with us. Thank you.
That's going to do it for our coverage here at the courthouse for this hour but stay tuned. My colleague, Becky Anderson, is back with much more on
this very busy news day after a quick break.
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ANDERSON: Israel's prime minister has vowed that Israel will enter Gaza's border city of Rafah, quote, "with or without a deal."
Benjamin Netanyahu made the comments a short time ago while speaking to hostage families. It comes as Hamas says it is studying the latest
ceasefire hostage proposal, which the U.S. secretary of state calls "extraordinarily generous" on Israel's part.
Antony Blinken is in Jordan, where he met with King Abdullah before heading to Israel later. Today.
Well students meantime, in the States and specifically at Columbia, refusing to back down after the university began suspending protesters who
refused to vacate an encampment.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON (voice-over): Overnight the protesters occupied a building known as Hamilton Hall, an historic building in Columbia's storied civil
movements. The scenes last night are there on your left.
On the right is video from 1968, when anti-Vietnam War protesters occupied the same building. The protests have also drawn comparisons to the anti-
apartheid campus protests in the 1980s at UC Berkeley.
That movement was ultimately successful in pushing the college to divest some $3 billion from companies in business with South Africa's apartheid
government.
I've got two Jewish Americans here to discuss what we are seeing play out. Ian Berlin is a current student at Yale. He took place (sic) in pro-
Palestinian protests on his campus just last week.
And I've got Jonathan Simon. He's now a professor at UC Berkeley but took part in those anti-apartheid sit-ins when he was a student back in the
1980s. He was one of the first students to be arrested at those.
It's good to have you both. Thank you. And I want to get your perspective of what we are seeing play out, not least at Columbia but around the
country.
First, though, Ian, to you, I want to bring up an op-ed that you wrote for CNN on what everyone you say is getting wrong about the protests. You say
people are applying the same tired framework to this movement.
What do you mean by that?
IAN BERLIN, STUDENT, YALE UNIVERSITY: Absolutely. And thank you for having me.
What I mean by that is that I think that it's really easy to see pro- Palestinian students being arrested at a time where people are concerned about anti-Semitism. And I want to acknowledge that there have been some
real troubling instances of anti-Semitism at some of these protests.
That said, my experience at Yale -- and that's what I can speak to -- has been that I've found a community of organizers that are really eager to
listen to Jewish voices, to hear what we have to say, to include our perspectives and that these protests have not been pitting Jewish students
against pro-Palestinian protesters.
And in fact, Jewish students have been some of the core leaders of this movement on campus.
ANDERSON: And I know that that is a situation reflected at some of these other campuses -- Columbia, things escalated significantly overnight.
To both of you protesters hung an intifada banner on Hamilton Hall after it was occupied. I want to get a sense of how both of you feel when you see
that and how you believe these demonstrations can be more inclusive, perhaps, to students, who actually do disagree with policies of Israel --
Jonathan.
JONATHAN SIMON, PROFESSOR, UC BERKELEY: Well, because so much of American Jewish identity has been tied up with support for Israel, certainly from my
generation of Baby Boomers, sort of inevitable that many Jews will feel offended and even frightened by talk of intifada or Palestinian control
from the river to the sea.
[10:50:04]
But that doesn't mean that the intentions of the protesters are lined up with that kind of view. And my experience, too, at Berkeley is that, while
there has been individual incidents that are troubling, the core of the protest, their understanding, their efforts to control their own
participants has been anything but.
ANDERSON: Ian let me get your perspective on this and I'm also interested about whether you are finding support amongst your family and friends for
your involvement here.
BERLIN: Absolutely. There has been -- it's a difficult moment for the Jewish community on campus. There's a lot of disagreement for sure. That
said, I think that I've been very lucky to have family and friends who are supportive of what's happening and even those who have maybe concerns about
what's going on have been willing to listen, to have conversations.
And I think that's really what it comes down to, is that you need to have these personal connections, these personal conversations, to really
understand what's going on and to avoid just talking past each other, falling into these kind of predetermined camp.
ANDERSON: One of the questions that we should keep front and center in this because it is ultimately what many who have been demonstrating are
asking.
It is a demand. Campus protests are ultimately, by many who are involved at its core, about divestment goals.
Can these protests achieve their divestment goals?
And I've put that to you, Jonathan, given your experience back in the '80s. And I was at Sussex University at the time myself, in the U.K., where we
saw many, many similar protests against businesses involved with South Africa.
So you've got experience of how this can be successful.
As you witness what we are seeing now and you reflect on the past, what's your sense?
SIMON: Let me say this, divestment is a particular strategy, I think, for putting a moral or political issue front and center in our society, through
its students and their activism. As a goal in itself it may or may not be achieved in a particular case.
In the South African case, I think there were certain circumstances that made it achievable, partly because of the dependency of the South African
economy on big American corporations that were investing in them.
But the thing that people should pay attention to is that, while campus protesters have never been popular, they were unpopular during the Vietnam
era; they were unpopular during the apartheid era. They have often been a harbinger of the direction of change in the opinion of society.
We saw society turned against the Vietnam War in the '60s. We saw consensus that South African apartheid had to end in the 1980s. And I think we're
beginning to see a real shift in tolerance for Israel's mistreatment of the Palestinians.
ANDERSON: Ian, most of the -- and I want to -- what your response to what Jonathan has just said is. With most of the universities refusing to
divest, meet the demands of protesters, I wonder why you think this goes next.
BERLIN: I think that it'll -- it's a long process. So I think on Yale's campus, we have often been thinking about the anti-apartheid activism. I
think our original occupation of Beinecke Plaza, harken back to Beinecke Plaza shanty town during the 1980s that was set up.
And that shanty town actually went on for two years so I think that we know that change doesn't happen overnight. But I also think that that doesn't
mean that we're going to stop fighting.
ANDERSON: Finally Jonathan, CNN has reported incidents of hate speech. And some Jewish students have reported feeling unsafe.
How can colleges effectively respond to hate speech while allowing peaceful protesters and protests but protesters to practice their First Amendment
rights?
SIMON: Well, first of all, let me say that one of the lessons that I think universities have, some of them have learned from the anti-apartheid
movement, is that relying on police force to just clear the protesters away is not very effective.
[10:55:04]
Tends to produce a lot of hurt, harm and long-term alienation among students.
So that as a strategy should probably be taken off the table. What should be done is, I think, individual level accountability for misbehavior and
misconduct. There's very few of these events that aren't videotaped these days.
We have the capacity to hold people accountable as individuals. When we look at campus as a whole, you have to realize that there are many Jewish
students, many Jewish faculty, many Israeli faculty, many Israeli postdocs. There's no general assault on Jewish practices, Jewish programming, Jewish
faculty, students or postdocs.
Almost all of the incidents we've seen have been involving the war in Gaza. And while there has been some bad behavior on the margins of that, I think
the core of it, the forest rather than the trees, is Palestine.
ANDERSON: I think many will agree with you. Jonathan.
Jonathan and Ian, thank you.
And just news coming in before I finish out for the hour, the White House says that people occupying campus buildings are taking the wrong approach
in protesting this war, absolutely the wrong approach. That is not an example of peaceful protest.
There according to the National Security Council spokesman, John Kirby. And that coming straight from the top, the president, he believes, he says,
believes that forcibly taking over buildings on campus is absolutely the wrong approach.
That is it for CONNECT THE WORLD. Stay with CNN. NEWSROOM is up next.
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